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breastroker
January 31st, 2007, 08:51 PM
Five Fast Facts: 50 Breast is the title of an article in the latest January 2007 USMS Swimmer magazine, page 10. This is under training and technique.

I normally like the USMS Swimmer magazine, but has anyone else but me been truly upset by such garbage!

They wasted 35 words saying that you have to surface before 15 meters!!!!!

Obviously the writer knew NOTHING about breaststroke, NO SUCH RULE exists for breaststroke.

Then they waste more space with " a scissor kick is illegal in competition.

And "the best breast swimmers spend more than half the race underwater is also JUST WRONG. That may be true in the 200 sc yards or meters, but not the 50 breast.

I am sorry to offend anyone, including the writer, but you should have checked your sources, there are many that could have put together MUCH better tips. It would have taken 10 seconds to email a masters breaststroker to confirn the information.:dedhorse:

I invite people like Allen Stark, Jeff Commings, Seth Van Neerden, Roque J Santos, David M Guthrie, Jack Groselle etc. to come up with 5 fast facts and tips for the 50 breast.

aquaFeisty
January 31st, 2007, 09:05 PM
Hi Wayne,

Not that I'm an incredibly quick breaststroker, but I wasn't really into that article either. Just thought to myself, "Huh?" Thanks for pointing out that mistake about the 15 m rule. I was really confused about that (while my dive and pullout is in no danger of going past 15 m, I certainly wouldn't want to shorten it up thinking I was going to get DQ'd)...

Carrie

The Fortress
January 31st, 2007, 09:08 PM
I normally like the USMS Swimmer magazine, but has anyone else but me been truly upset by such garbage!

I invite people like Allen Stark, Jeff Commings, Seth Van Neerden, Roque J Santos, David M Guthrie, Jack Groselle etc. to come up with 5 fast facts and tips for the 50 breast.

It's a mixed bag. Some articles are interesting. Others are overly simplistic or inaccurate. Remember, the May/June 2006 issue featured swimmers with flotation devices. I'd be much more interested in what people here think are the "5 fast facts." Where are yours?

Seagurl51
January 31st, 2007, 09:24 PM
I'm with Fort on this one. I found out this morning that I'm REALLY close to making the Nationals qualifying time for the 50 and had no idea. I've never swam it before (I usually do the 100) so tips would be awesome!


In terms of the magazine, I'm also in agreement with Fort. I haven't seen the new issue yet, but in the past it seems like it's really hit and miss. I think the magazine is focused more toward older readers. While the majority of Masters are probably over 30 and settled, the demographic for early to late 20's is there and I think it's kinda ignored.

breastroker
January 31st, 2007, 09:46 PM
I would start with:

1) The underwater stroke is shortened for the 50 race, about one to two seconds shorterless time than the 100 and 200 breaststroke races. You are faster on the surface and so after the initial speed of the dive and underwater stroke wears off, getting to the surface with a very powerfull first stroke up is important to set the rest of the strokes up. Great breaststrokers will still go 10 meters off the start.

2) Practice the start to enter the water streamlined and underwater stroke to be quick and minimize water resistance. Practice the new underwater downwards dolphin kick just as the hands are coming down past the shoulders of the underwater stroke. This is worth about a tenth to two tenth reduction of time.

3) On the first stroke after underwater pullout, time arms so maximum width of outscull as head breaks water surface- worth .2 sec. per length

4) The 50 race can be muscled more than the longer races. Sometimes coming higher or pulling the knees up a little can generate more speed although for a shorter time.

5) Practice the race finish, try to touch with a huge lunge and end up with the head, arms and body finishing underwater. You are faster underwater, you can gain up to half a second on a great finish. The best finish ever was Ed Moses, see his finishes, they are a work of art.


Since I wrote Faster Breaststroke and New Thinking For Sprint Breaststroke, the World Records for both men and women have fallen over ONE FULL second in the 50 meter short course and longs course races. The mens 50 SCM is now 26.18 and the LCM is 26.17 seconds.

For those who have used my web site, it is back on a new server. Look for new articles soon.

chaos
January 31st, 2007, 09:47 PM
In terms of the magazine, I'm also in agreement with Fort. I haven't seen the new issue yet, but in the past it seems like it's really hit and miss. I think the magazine is focused more toward older readers. While the majority of Masters are probably over 30 and settled, the demographic for early to late 20's is there and I think it's kinda ignored.

Sorry I don't have any great breaststroke advise. Swam a 50 pr 35.09 last saturday (so who would listen to me anyway). It was the second time I swam it in a meet, dropped 3.5 seconds from last year.
I remember a few years back....(yes I'm over 30 and settled)....watching Roque Santos rock the 200 at 5 spl at Colonies zones at U of MD. He sure did spend a lot of time underwater.
I am not sure what the average age for USMS is, but I would guess that my LMSC comes in over 45....settled? .....I wouldn't make that assumption.

This is the part of the post where I am deciding if I should include a sarcastic "kids these days" type of grouchy old man comment......maybe next time.

breastroker
January 31st, 2007, 10:00 PM
I actually think the "Hydration Laid Bare" is great information. I am taking it to work tomorrow to show the "water only" group that there are other ways of hydration. Don't get me wrong though, when in shape and at nationals I only drink water, and lots of it.

Also those who want to have a great 50 breaststroke need to train for it. Look at my American Swim Coaches presentation "Advanced Breaststroke - Ideas and drills that work."

My favorite is fast forwards eggbeater, trying to tire up the muscled that pull the legs up to the butt, and developing quick feet.

Remember you can gain only so much extra strength in a year. But by speeding up the hands and especially the foot speed, POWER can be nearly doubled.

There are no slow, lazy feet in the 50 races. Think SNAP:drink: :drink:

Seagurl51
January 31st, 2007, 10:15 PM
Thanks Wayne for the tips! I'll work on adding more power to my stroke. Can I get power from weight training or is it more an in the water thing?


Dave, by settled I meant out of school, not job hoping, not town searching, not self finding, in a fairly routine schedule. Swimming has become a routine and not an after thought. Settled....but not nessacarily married with kids (I hope that makes sense). I would have gone with "kids these days + grumpy old man" hybrid. ;)

SwimStud
January 31st, 2007, 10:31 PM
I'm with Fort on this one. I found out this morning that I'm REALLY close to making the Nationals qualifying time for the 50 and had no idea. I've never swam it before (I usually do the 100) so tips would be awesome!



Kyra I hope you make it. I'm sending you good frog vibes... :smooch:

Seagurl51
January 31st, 2007, 10:43 PM
Kyra I hope you make it. I'm sending you good frog vibes... :smooch:

Thanks buddy!:wiggle:

Warren
February 1st, 2007, 12:06 AM
arms never stop moving, no glide. watch oleg lisogor the worlds best 50 breastroker.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=lRkB9RclSA4

breastroker
February 1st, 2007, 12:53 AM
Oleg Lisogor holds both records, and has become faster than ever. He just might be the first under 26 seconds! Just 5-6 years ago a good LCM 50 time was 28 flat. And anything in the 27's for the SCM was fast. I have long said that the rest of the world has an advantage by swimming World Cup. Nothing like money to make you swim fast.

Also I believe that a sprint breaststroker should use the 2 handed grab start, not the track start. That is what Oleg uses, as well as most European breaststrokers.Ed Moses set the long course WR in the 50 meter breast with a 27.39 from the U.S. nationals in March 2001. It is now over a second faster!

Is there anyway to download videos from youtube?

He still get his head in very good position for some streamlining, has a fast turn, and even though others may touch with him at the 25 meters, he comes up after the underwater first by over a foot.

aquaFeisty
February 1st, 2007, 06:45 AM
Thanks, Wayne, for all the tips! I'm going to start working on my grab start and doing some eggbeater kick.

So the world's best sprint breaststrokers go about 10m on their dive and start? Guess I'm not in any danger of going past 15, LOL!!

SwimStud
February 1st, 2007, 09:31 AM
Also I believe that a sprint breaststroker should use the 2 handed grab start, not the track start. That is what Oleg uses, as well as most European breaststrokers.Ed Moses set the long course WR in the 50 meter breast with a 27.39 from the U.S. nationals in March 2001. It is now over a second faster!

Is there anyway to download videos from youtube?

He still get his head in very good position for some streamlining, has a fast turn, and even though others may touch with him at the 25 meters, he comes up after the underwater first by over a foot.

I grab...the track feels odd to me. I wish I could turn like Oleg though.
So Wayne you think some head movement is not a bad thing in the 50? Is that because of the speed. I've been trying to get my 50 stroke to be like my 100 and 200. Should I be more muscle on the 50?

Why are neither you or Allen on the East coast...damn....if I didn't hate flying I'd invest in a trip for some pool time.

Rich

Jeff Commings
February 1st, 2007, 10:27 AM
Wayne, I've got nothing to add. Your tips are good.

I'd like to say, though, that the tips in the magazine seem to be written for people that know nothing about the stroke or the race. So, some things that are not important to experienced breaststrokers might be crucial for a beginner to know.

Also, I thought you had to come up before 15 meters on the underwater pull. From what I understood, that was a blanket rule for all strokes.

swimmieAvsFan
February 1st, 2007, 01:27 PM
Also, I thought you had to come up before 15 meters on the underwater pull. From what I understood, that was a blanket rule for all strokes.

jeff, i thought the same thing. so i just checked my 2007 rules and regs (just got it in the mail and i was excited. does that make me a total geek? :D ) there is actually no rule about 15 meters in breast. it's listed in every other stroke... which is weird, cause i was definitely under the impression that the 15 meter thing was for all 4 strokes...

scyfreestyler
February 1st, 2007, 01:35 PM
I have always been under the impression that in breast you are only limited by your pullout and must break the surface of the water before taking another stroke. If you want to stay submerged forever that is fine but you will have no propulsion and will certainly fall behind the other swimmers.

Allen Stark
February 1st, 2007, 02:14 PM
I already e-mailed the mag about their mistake.I think you have to lift weights to sprint breaststroke.I don't think you can develop enough power from water work alone. Wayne was a little confusing as he said you are both faster on the surface and underwater. You are faster underwater because you have no wave resistance,but as was noted as you are only allowed one stroke underwater(plus the outsweep of the second) you will soon slow down to slower than you can swim at the surface. Since in a 50 you are going faster at the surface than at longer distances you should not be underwater as long.How long you should stay underwater depends on how fast your surface breaststroke is and how fast your pullout is.My teammate Bob Smith is a great sprinter in all 4 strokes and has great starts and turns. I am faster than he is breaststroke at the surface but he can keep close in a 50 SCY.I have seen him go 50 ft off the block(more than 15M) before slowing to his surface speed. For those with relatively weak breaststrokes and good pullouts the longer underwater the better. Remember,surface when you slow down to YOUR surface speed.

ande
February 1st, 2007, 04:29 PM
be very strong the stronger you are the better

looks like oleg took a dolphin kick right as he entered the water off his dive then another when he does his underwater pull
he doesn't pause much after his underwater pull
he brings his hands up and starts swimming
looks like his hands come out of the water as he brings his arms forward

here's a nice underwater view of kitajima
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zxdOCUEoTw4

kitajima above (slow mo)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sz5_E49i9A8

athens mens 200 br (2004)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZXXoYtxkiN4

tjburk
February 1st, 2007, 04:34 PM
Ande, Kitajima did that same thing at the Olympics.....kicked as he entered the water......then kicked during his pullout......Should have been DQ'd, but it was missed.....They missed it on his turn too.

CreamPuff
February 1st, 2007, 05:29 PM
Ande, Kitajima did that same thing at the Olympics.....kicked as he entered the water......then kicked during his pullout......Should have been DQ'd, but it was missed.....They missed it on his turn too.

Do you really think it was missed? I remember watching this race with friends (some nonswimmers even) and we all caught it on both occasions.
To me, it seemed so blatant - like swimming the wrong stroke.

tjburk
February 2nd, 2007, 01:25 PM
It's hard to be in the mind of the judge in that lane, but, unlike AG or HS swimming, they each have only one lane to look at and evaluate, there should have been no distractions to blame it on. The only explanation I can come up with other then being blind is......too many bubbles and turbulence to see it through. Kind of weak from a sometimes official's point of view!

poolraat
February 2nd, 2007, 01:40 PM
......too many bubbles and turbulence to see it through. Kind of weak from a sometimes official's point of view!

As an official, I agree that sometimes the surface glare in combination with turbulance and bubbles makes it hard to see. But polarized sunglasses do help to see through the glare. It's hard to second guess what the official actually did, or did not, see.

scyfreestyler
February 2nd, 2007, 01:51 PM
Calling a DQ in an Olympic Final is big business that is sure to ignite a firestorm of contrversy. There would be few things more embarassing for an Olympic official than to DQ a swimmer only to have that call overturned later on. Perhaps the official was not quite certain what it was that he/she was seeing and decided to err on the side of self preservation.

SwimStud
February 2nd, 2007, 01:54 PM
Calling a DQ in an Olympic Final is big business that is sure to ignite a firestorm of contrversy. There would be few things more embarassing for an Olympic official than to DQ a swimmer only to have that call overturned later on. Perhaps the official was not quite certain what it was that he/she was seeing and decided to err on the side of self preservation.

With this in mind do you think that is why he used the 2x kick? underwater Replay should be used in this instance. Revocation of medals can be done at anytime.

No better/worse than taking "asthma medicine" IMHO.

tjburk
February 2nd, 2007, 01:54 PM
Yeah, that is what we were taught....If you cannot absolutely say you saw it - it never happened!!!!

scyfreestyler
February 2nd, 2007, 01:58 PM
These things are bound to happen. Hopefully perserverance will pay off as it did for Brendan Hansen, and revenge will be served.

CreamPuff
February 2nd, 2007, 02:04 PM
Yeah, that is what we were taught....If you cannot absolutely say you saw it - it never happened!!!!

Or as the CFO I worked for said (very succinctly I might add),
"Deny and lie."

Ha!

SCY Freestyler - good words of wisdom there.

FlyQueen
February 2nd, 2007, 02:08 PM
Calling a DQ in an Olympic Final is big business that is sure to ignite a firestorm of contrversy. There would be few things more embarassing for an Olympic official than to DQ a swimmer only to have that call overturned later on. Perhaps the official was not quite certain what it was that he/she was seeing and decided to err on the side of self preservation.

That happened to Peirsol though ... maybe the official was mad at his defending of Hansen after the illegal kick though (by Kitajima)... at least that's my theory, but he didn't seem to be too troubled to call Peirsol on it, yes I know it was over turned on a technicality AND some say it should have stood, though I don't see why ... but anyway ...

However this topic is ... :dedhorse: :dedhorse: BIG time ...

I love it just the same though ... :wiggle: