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SwimStud
February 3rd, 2007, 02:20 PM
Howdy folks.

Anyone have some good video or drills for learning the timing for Fly. I have the strength and ability to get up and down the pool in my version of the stroke. I just want to get the timing right, and some Flyer's thoughts on their stroke. I'm looking to do this mostly for IM reasons.


Thanks

Rich

ensignada
February 3rd, 2007, 03:15 PM
I'd like to jump onto Rich's thread here with a kind of related question. (Hope you don't mind, Rich.)

I'm hoping/planning to start practicing with my local masters team in the fall. I've never learned fly. Do I need to? I'm game, but frankly, it looks....difficult.

poolraat
February 3rd, 2007, 03:22 PM
Get The Fortress to be your coach.:joker:
Seriously though, have you considered the TI books and DVD? The drills are a good way to get the basic feel for the timing. Once you get the balance and timing down the rest of it just comes together. If you're a slow learner like me it will take a few years.:dedhorse:

SwimStud
February 3rd, 2007, 03:29 PM
I'd like to jump onto Rich's thread here with a kind of related question. (Hope you don't mind, Rich.)

I'm hoping/planning to start practicing with my local masters team in the fall. I've never learned fly. Do I need to? I'm game, but frankly, it looks....difficult.

Get your own thread Barb! lol
Seriously have you tried it? I just tried it the other night and it wasn't so bad. I think I just need to work on the timing and stuff. Power is there.

ensignada
February 3rd, 2007, 04:13 PM
Get your own thread Barb! lol
Seriously have you tried it? I just tried it the other night and it wasn't so bad. I think I just need to work on the timing and stuff. Power is there.

Sorry for the intrusion, Rich, but this question has been playing on my mind the past couple of weeks. I will summarily bow out of your thread but feast on the answers to your question.

I've never tried fly as I was never a competitive swimmer. Frankly, I wouldn't know where to begin, and this stroke seems prone to cause shoulder issues if executed badly. I'll probably ask my daughter's swim teacher to teach me the basics and then go from there.

The Fortress
February 3rd, 2007, 04:45 PM
Get The Fortress to be your coach.:joker:


Get Dennis Baker or The Bork for your coach. :joker:

FlyQueen coaches, but I'm sure you've pissed her off too much. :thhbbb:

I bet my wonderful twin :) Beth can give you some great tips when she comes up for air. She coaches too, and is a smokin' fast flyer/FAF Sista.

And what about the 67 x 50 fly stud himself, Mr. Barra? He's a USS coach too. We're just loaded with coaches here -- Coach T, Solar Energy, Quicksilver, Geochuck, Speedo Racer, Kaizen, SwimmieAvsFan, etc.

We own the Misty Hyman GoSwim video. She is quite sublime. The queen of streamlining and SDKs. But probably more advanced. A TI video might help you get the timing down better and teach a specific drill sequence to develop correct timing and balance. I think the TI site has free downloads of drills for each stroke?

Gotta run right now, but I'll come back with some other ideas later.

Barb:

Not sure you "need" to learn fly to swim with a masters team. Probably not. But once you get the other strokes down, you ought to give it a whirl. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I think it's the hardest stroke to learn as an adult. It might take awhile, so be patient. I was a flyer when young. When I came back eons later as a masters swimmer, they were swimming it all different. So I had to relearn with tons of drills, etc. Start with drills. Most people learning fly need to wear fins to learn correct body position and then wean themselves off as they improve. That's how they often start USS kids off anyway.

SwimStud
February 3rd, 2007, 04:53 PM
Sorry for the intrusion, Rich, but this question has been playing on my mind the past couple of weeks. I will summarily bow out of your thread but feast on the answers to your question.


Barb I was kidding you know that right?



And what about the 67 x 50 fly stud himself, Mr. Barra? He's a USS coach too. We're just loaded with coaches here -- Coach T, Solar Energy, Quicksilver, Geochuck, Speedo Racer, Kaizen, SwimmieAvsFan, etc.



Mr Barra is no too far away to travel to for a coaching session (if available) too...if I can't get it from books and videos.

dorothyrde
February 3rd, 2007, 06:03 PM
Barb, I learned fly 2 years AFTER I started swimming with the team. I like it now, and don't feel like I need power to swim it, so must be doing something right on the timing.

funkyfish
February 3rd, 2007, 06:32 PM
Fins seemed to help me. Long time ago on my hs team we lost our flyer my senior year. I was "tapped" to take his place. Initially my rhythm was way off. Then coach got me some fins, after a few lengths up and down the pool, along with some pointers, I got it. It was amazing. I struggled with fly for about 8 years before this, and then "bam," one afternoon it all clicked together. Went from a 1:04 to :53 and change by the end of the season. :banana:

some_girl
February 3rd, 2007, 06:53 PM
You might like these old threads:
http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=5070
http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=5103

(Though I should note my fly has changed a lot since I made those posts in the first one, and I definitely stopped breathing to the side. Maybe I should try it again.)

ensignada
February 3rd, 2007, 08:06 PM
Barb I was kidding you know that right?

Yes Rich, I know you were kidding. Relax. Deep, cleansing breaths. ;)

Muppet
February 3rd, 2007, 09:30 PM
Venom,
Fort will love me for this, but a monofin is great for getting that wavy motion down. Part of the timing is getting your body to essentially do waves (like a sine curve or radio wave or whatever if you need a visual) as you swim. Long waves, though. Doing 25s underwater SDK with Fort's monofin, you will get the feeling for how that works underwater, and it is very similar while you're at the surface.

Doing full-on fly with a monofin is just not necessary, and honestly i think it jacks my stroke up, but you can do one-arm drills with the monofin too to help recreate that undulation.

Barb,
Do you are you asking "do I NEED" or "do I WANT" to learn fly. I don't think any masters coach will kick you out of practice if you refuse to do fly. It sounds to me like you want to, so yeah, give yourself some time here and there to work on some drills and once you join your team, pull the coach aside and tell him/her you want some pointers.

BOTH (and other fly folks)
A great way of learning is imitation. Find a good butterflyer (Olympic, USMS, other) and study their stroke. Note body position, head movement, arm speed and position, kick, etc. Then try to imitate that. I had a crush on a breaststroker coach of ours years ago and saw her doing 1 pull 2 kick breast drill LCM working on that underwater glide. Asked her about it later and got some body position pointers and was well on my way to having a slightly better breaststroke.

The Fortress
February 3rd, 2007, 11:11 PM
Venom,
Fort will love me for this, but a monofin is great for getting that wavy motion down. Part of the timing is getting your body to essentially do waves (like a sine curve or radio wave or whatever if you need a visual) as you swim. Long waves, though. Doing 25s underwater SDK with Fort's monofin, you will get the feeling for how that works underwater, and it is very similar while you're at the surface.

Doing full-on fly with a monofin is just not necessary, and honestly i think it jacks my stroke up, but you can do one-arm drills with the monofin too to help recreate that undulation.



Superbanana:

Yes, we love the monofin for exactly the reasons you said. Agreed that we don't swim full stroke fly with it. :hug: Flash.

Venom:

Try fins to learn body position and rhythm and them ditch them if you must. I know you're philosophically opposed, but one needs to be open minded. ;) (I still use them for explosive race pace fly, which is a recommended GoSwim fly drill.) Try caterpiller drill, chest press fly and lot of one arm fly making sure to chest press as you do it. Don't raise your head up too high when you breathe or your hips will sink. Try to stay fairly flat while still undulating slightly. Practice dolphin kick on your stomach, back and both sides using fins and not using fins. I've had USS coaches tell me that kicking on your side for beginning flyers produces immediate gains when they switch to full stroke fly. Don't bend the knees too much on the kick. In fact, it's oddly better to forget about the kick altogether when learning fly. (That's why fins can help at first.) Your arms should be very relaxed on the recovery. I don't do an early exit on fly, although I've heard of it. Fly is all about timing and core strength. If ya come to colonies zones, you'll see some great flyers. Maybe even see Muppet race Barra? Jeff Roddin is amazing too.

:dedhorse: (Superbanana: Ya left out that dead thing again .... :eek: )

Seagurl51
February 4th, 2007, 12:46 AM
Howdy folks.

Anyone have some good video or drills for learning the timing for Fly. I have the strength and ability to get up and down the pool in my version of the stroke. I just want to get the timing right, and some Flyer's thoughts on their stroke. I'm looking to do this mostly for IM reasons.


Thanks

Rich



I feel abandonded....... :( Going to the dark side Rich, the dark side.




Not sure if this has been suggested already didnt' read all the posts but one armed fly helped me get down the timing. I used to do one kick per stroke, but isolating it one arm at a time helped me concentrate more on the kick... rather than trying to add it in while throwing my arms wildly over the water and drag my lifeless body along in a most ungraceful horrifying way.

SwimStud
February 4th, 2007, 09:25 AM
I feel abandonded....... :( Going to the dark side Rich, the dark side.




Not sure if this has been suggested already didnt' read all the posts but one armed fly helped me get down the timing. I used to do one kick per stroke, but isolating it one arm at a time helped me concentrate more on the kick... rather than trying to add it in while throwing my arms wildly over the water and drag my lifeless body along in a most ungraceful horrifying way.

Not going over...just want to do IM too. Besides...they too scared to race us at Breast...this way there can be some head to head ;)

One armed I tried and found it worse than doing 2 armed. I'm taking my kid to the pool later. I'll be doing a little bit of fly for myself see what happens.

dorothyrde
February 4th, 2007, 09:30 AM
I found standing at the edge of the pool and slowly going over the timing of the arms and legs helped. I would work it through, then swim a 25, work it through. It really helps if someone can watch and tell you where your timing is off.

SwimStud
February 4th, 2007, 10:02 AM
I found standing at the edge of the pool and slowly going over the timing of the arms and legs helped. I would work it through, then swim a 25, work it through. It really helps if someone can watch and tell you where your timing is off.

I'm going to try to get kick on arm entry and exit...I'm in no hurry really. I won't be competing in fly this side of the summer I am sure.

chaos
February 4th, 2007, 10:14 AM
next sunday is fly-day for me. i have comitted myself to 4200 yds fly. there will be lots of easy swiming in between all that.
we train at SUNY new paltz...our club has a pretty relaxed guest policy, so come on down. hrs are 4-6pm. we could work on some drills etc.

be warned....you may not want to go back to that icky breast stroke.

most other swimmers will try to avoid making eye contact with you when you are approaching the blocks for the start of a 200fly (whispers of "dead man walking" can be heard)

SwimStud
February 4th, 2007, 10:29 AM
next sunday is fly-day for me. i have comitted myself to 4200 yds fly. there will be lots of easy swiming in between all that.
we train at SUNY new paltz...our club has a pretty relaxed guest policy, so come on down. hrs are 4-6pm. we could work on some drills etc.

be warned....you may not want to go back to that icky breast stroke.

most other swimmers will try to avoid making eye contact with you when you are approaching the blocks for the start of a 200fly (whispers of "dead man walking" can be heard)

I appreciate the opportunity Dave, Next Sunday will be tough though I'm taking my daughter to a her first friendly Y family meet,which doesn't strat until 1pm. I'm doing and event or two to keep fluid also . I want to retry the BR 200 with goggles acting apropriately.
Do you practice fly every Sunday? I'd love to come down for some guidance provided I won't impinge on any of your training etc.

All jokes aside I think the 2 strokes are very well suited to complimenting each other. I think I might manage 200 of the 4200 Yards of fly.

chaos
February 4th, 2007, 10:55 AM
I appreciate the opportunity Dave, Next Sunday will be tough though I'm taking my daughter to a her first friendly Y family meet,which doesn't strat until 1pm. I'm doing and event or two to keep fluid also . I want to retry the BR 200 with goggles acting apropriately.
Do you practice fly every Sunday?

sunday is our 2 hour day (and generally more lightly attended than the rest of the week), so there is always oportunity to work some fly into the session.
pm me if you would like to join in the reindeer games another time!

swim4me
February 4th, 2007, 11:20 AM
SwimStud (You'll NEVER be Venom to me ;) ),

I have been practicing Fly with two fins, I don't have a monofin, and it helps with the undulation and makes the stroke not near as tiring. The suggestion of practicing SDKs with fins for 25 underwater is a great suggestion, as it gets you used to moving your core, not your legs, to create the undulation. (one of my problems)

Fort,

I guess my technique was not as good as I perceived it was :shakeshead: . On Friday the coach suggested I try breathing while beginning my arm stroke rather than on ending it (who knew) and it felt (and he said 'looked') wonderful. I think that has been my major problem. I was swimming 'uphill'. Now when I breathe, as I begin to lift my arms out of the water, it looks 'to me' like I will get a breath of water, but that is just because I am so much closer to the water (my hips don't drop) and I can keep up the undulating without even trying.:groovy: :groovy:

SwimStud, I feel the 'Dark Side' calling :eek:

The Fortress
February 4th, 2007, 11:40 AM
next sunday is fly-day for me. i have comitted myself to 4200 yds fly. there will be lots of easy swiming in between all that.

:shakeshead: :shakeshead: :shakeshead:

I swam a whole 250 fly in practice today as part of a stroke set. :rofl: That about killed me ... Everyone else too. I can't wait for you to convert SwimStud to fly, Dave! Maybe you'll get him to do the 200 with you since he likes that 200 breast. :joker:

Sorry Kathy.

Should have mentioned that you start breathing as you begin the recovery and then the head goes back down as you're entering in front. I enter with hands approximately shoulder width or so; you don't want them touching in front or way outside either. Far enough apart so your chest can land like a pillow and begin chest pressing.

Try not to come too far out of the water as you're breathing on the recovery or you'll get that uphill effect. Try to look somewhat downward, not forward, if you can. Neutral head position is best.

You don't need a monofin. Regular fins are better for learning and swimming full stroke fly. I don't swim fly too much yet with my monofin, just getting used to it. I mostly use it for SDKs and kicking. Don't do big whomping kicks when swimming fly. As I said earlier, I tend to deemphasize or forget about kicking. Little kicks are better. Learn undulation first. Undulation with the core is so important, than flatten it out.

I'm sure one of gurus like Ande or Terry could describe it better.

chaos
February 4th, 2007, 12:16 PM
I can't wait for you to convert SwimStud to fly Dave! Maybe you'll get him to do the 200 with you since he likes that 200 breast.

This may be tough. I think breaststroke runs deep in the blood of brits. Last time I was in England (visiting with my MIL) I swam at a pool in Downham Market....I was the only one (of about 20) who got my hair wet!:laugh2:

poolraat
February 4th, 2007, 12:28 PM
I swam a whole 250 fly in practice today as part of a stroke set. :rofl: That about killed me ... Everyone else too. I can't wait for you to convert SwimStud to fly, Dave! Maybe you'll get him to do the 200 with you since he likes that 200 breast. :joker:


At least you got to swim today. My pool is closed on Sunday.:mad:
And yesterday, I had to miss lap swim :mad: because my son had an early basketball game. I guess I should be posting this on the "whine" thread.

Sydney
February 4th, 2007, 12:54 PM
There are a couple things that helped me learn fly:

1. When I did the 1 arm drill, I practiced breathing to the FRONT rather than the side. It helped me learn to put my head in the correct place and work the breathing into the body undulation.

2. I practice doing really deep dives with an exaggerated single kick which I gradually flatten out to a normal fly stroke.

3. When I first learned, using the pull buoy to keep my butt up helped a lot. The fins were never that helpful for me. I always felt like I was sinking when I took them off.

4. Sometimes when I feel like I'm dragging, I think about making sure my feet break the surface of the water without having to bend my knees too much.

5. Also, when I started, I didn't even try to do a whole length. Even now I rarely do more than a 50. Far better to swim it well than far. In sets for masters that call for 100 fly, I usually substitute in some free and nobody seems to care.

6. Resist the temptation to look where you're going. Keep your head in a neutral position between your arms except for really quickly when you're breathing.

Alphathree
February 4th, 2007, 03:19 PM
To learn to fly, you simply have to jump and then forget to hit the ground.

(See: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

SolarEnergy
February 4th, 2007, 03:50 PM
I like the
Ondulation (with full breathing pattern) then
One arm (Breathing on the side) then
One arm (Breathing in the front) then
Two arms progression, especially for unfit clientele.

Some may decide to stick to One arm breathing on the side after having experimented all the steps.

swim4me
February 4th, 2007, 06:33 PM
:shakeshead: :shakeshead: :shakeshead:

Should have mentioned that you start breathing as you begin the recovery and then the head goes back down as you're entering in front. I enter with hands approximately shoulder width or so; you don't want them touching in front or way outside either. Far enough apart so your chest can land like a pillow and begin chest pressing.

Try not to come too far out of the water as you're breathing on the recovery or you'll get that uphill effect. Try to look somewhat downward, not forward, if you can. Neutral head position is best.

You don't need a monofin. Regular fins are better for learning and swimming full stroke fly. I don't swim fly too much yet with my monofin, just getting used to it. I mostly use it for SDKs and kicking. Don't do big whomping kicks when swimming fly. As I said earlier, I tend to deemphasize or forget about kicking. Little kicks are better. Learn undulation first. Undulation with the core is so important, than flatten it out.

I'm sure one of gurus like Ande or Terry could describe it better.

Fort, its ok :) , I thought I was doing it right and that it was just an exhausting stroke for me :shakeshead: . I took my fins and practiced underwater SDKs for butterfly, but they also helped my freestyle pushoffs, last weekend, as I could never get that right (I would kick from my knees down). During Friday's practice, after seeing my (new) Freestyle pushoffs, the coach complimented me on my streamlined undulation (underwater before beginning Freestyle). He had been trying to get me to do it, but it had not clicked yet. I never learned (or had even seen the streamlined undulation for starts and turns in Back and Free) since I last swam competitively in 1980 (except, of course, during the olympics, but had never attempted it until recently) . Then, on Friday, when Coach told me when to breath, (and I did not look up :agree: , hence the feeling that I was going to inhale water), it felt wonderful!!:banana:

Had my hair color touched up :dedhorse: Friday afternoon, so trying to stay out of pool and keep hair dry and unchlorinated until Monday a.m.:frustrated:

Thanks for helping a Breaststroker!! :bow:

newmastersswimmer
February 5th, 2007, 12:27 AM
SwimStud, I feel the 'Dark Side' calling posted by Swim4me

Face it Kathy ...The Dark Side has already taken your soul my friend...resistance is futile....Mwuhahahaha!!:joker:

Oh yeah....One more thing. Beware Kathy...This so called original SwimStud is most definitely venom Kathy....You must resist his evilness....he will only try to corrupt your mind with his lies and deciet!:shakeshead: :banana: :banana:

Newmastersswimmer

Muppet
February 5th, 2007, 09:19 AM
If ya come to colonies zones, you'll see some great flyers. Maybe even see Muppet race Barra? Jeff Roddin is amazing too.

:dedhorse: (Superbanana: Ya left out that dead thing again .... :eek: )

Roddin smoked me yesterday. My first masters meet, I saw him do the 200 SCM fly and was absolutely astonished. His form is really good and he never falls apart at the end.
I'd also definetely be up for a race against Dave; I think that would be a pretty close matchup.

:dedhorse: :banana:

SwimStud
February 5th, 2007, 09:23 AM
Roddin smoked me yesterday. My first masters meet, I saw him do the 200 SCM fly and was absolutely astonished. His form is really good and he never falls apart at the end.
I'd also definetely be up for a race against Dave; I think that would be a pretty close matchup.

:dedhorse: :banana:

I did 25 yesterday.. I didn't fall apart at the end. I fell apart at the begining :joker: :joker:

The Fortress
February 5th, 2007, 10:47 AM
it felt wonderful!!:banana:
Had my hair color touched up :dedhorse: Friday afternoon, so trying to stay out of pool and keep hair dry and unchlorinated until Monday a.m.:frustrated:

Thanks for helping a Breaststroker!! :bow:

Glad the fly project is going well. Not thinking of you as a breaststroker. Thinking of you as a soon-to-be-converted flyer!! Also, judging from your answer on the superhero thread, it appears you may be a FAF Sista too! :banana: Maybe SwimStud will be converted after he gets his lesson from fly stud Barra.

Whenever I do the hair thing, I just hope right back in the water. Do you really have to wait?

Muppet:

I agree Roddin's form is beautiful. I understand he's doing a lot of race pace work and fast 25s. I hope you had a great meet too! We're you doing all those animal events again or a little sprinting too? Did you have to buy anyone dinner?

:dedhorse:

Muppet
February 5th, 2007, 01:28 PM
Muppet:

I agree Roddin's form is beautiful. I understand he's doing a lot of race pace work and fast 25s. I hope you had a great meet too! We're you doing all those animal events again or a little sprinting too? Did you have to buy anyone dinner?

:dedhorse:

No animals and no dinners this time. I did a little of everything; a few 100s and the 200s free and back (stacy peterson and swimmieavsfan made me look like a summer league 8&U in the 200 back). I did the 200 free & im and the 500 the day before at a collegiate Club meet, that was my mini-animal.

Also met SwimShark at the meet!

:dedhorse:

chaos
February 5th, 2007, 04:08 PM
[QUOTE=Muppet;77260] .
I'd also definetely be up for a race against Dave; I think that would be a pretty close matchup.QUOTE]

are we talking zones or the bay sans rubber?

for zones, i'm up for anything fly, im or 1650 (we can syncronize entry times for adjacent lanes.... that never works out)

LindsayNB
February 5th, 2007, 04:25 PM
(we can syncronize entry times for adjacent lanes.... that never works out)

I think there should be a mechanism for two people who want to race to arrange adjacent lanes. It would add a lot of fun to meets. With the standard seeding the chances are against you even if you put in identical seed times.

A recent meet I was at had a 200 "choice" event and we had one flyer, one breaststroker, one IMer, and two freestylers with roughly equivalent times racing one another, it was a hoot!
:banana:

SwimStud
February 5th, 2007, 04:29 PM
I think there should be a mechanism for two people who want to race to arrange adjacent lanes. It would add a lot of fun to meets. With the standard seeding the chances are against you even if you put in identical seed times.

A recent meet I was at had a 200 "choice" event and we had one flyer, one breaststroker, one IMer, and two freestylers with roughly equivalent times racing one another, it was a hoot!
:banana:

Can we get back to posting about me learning to Fly please...

:thhbbb:

hehe

En guarde Lindsay ;)

a "Grudge Heat" entry ability would be a lot of fun.

The Fortress
February 5th, 2007, 04:34 PM
I think there should be a mechanism for two people who want to race to arrange adjacent lanes. It would add a lot of fun to meets. With the standard seeding the chances are against you even if you put in identical seed times.

A recent meet I was at had a 200 "choice" event and we had one flyer, one breaststroker, one IMer, and two freestylers with roughly equivalent times racing one another, it was a hoot!
:banana:


I agree that would be quite fun. But at a big meet like Colonies Zones, no way! My coach, with assists from folks on the team, is processing all those entry forms. It is a huge pain to do all the input work as well as all the meet director stuff. She also gets boatloads of late entries, and accepts many of them. It's difficult enough to host a meet like that without worrying about adjacent lane preferences.

But at a smaller local meet, I think you'd have a decent chance if you entered identical times. You'd at least be swimming in the same heat. I've seen some local meets with the 200 "choice."

P.S. To stay on topic, I would also like to put in a good word for SwimStud to watch and learn from my teammate Bob Hansen when he swims the 100 fly at Zones. He is a true SwimStud too. Plus, he graciously lets me swim fly on the mixed age relays. (He's also a great breaststroker and hence IMer.) As for the chicks, if my secret nemesis is there, SwimStud, I will point her out and you can watch her smokin' fast 50 fly. She rarely swims the 100 anymore. She will be the one towering over both of us.

SwimStud
February 5th, 2007, 04:36 PM
I agree that would be quite fun. But at a big meet like Colonies Zones, no way! My coach, with assists from folks on the team, is processing all those entry forms. It is a huge pain to do all the input work as well as all the meet director stuff. She also gets boatloads of late entries, and accepts many of them. It's difficult enough to host a meet like that without worrying about adjacent lane preferences.

But at a smaller local meet, I think you'd have a decent chance if you entered identical times. You'd at least be swimming in the same heat. I've seen some local meets with the 200 "choice."

I'm doing a 200 choice this weekend then 100BR and 50 BR. If I could flip I'd do 50 Free...I might do 25 Free.

LindsayNB
February 5th, 2007, 04:43 PM
Regarding learning fly (:thhbbb:), if you do get the TI video keep in mind that it is teaching the one kick per stroke version of fly, and there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that but it is useful to know that if you are used to or expect the two kick style. At least the old video did, I haven't seen the new one. And if you're not careful you could end up learning butterfrog!

I found fins were useful as long as I minimized the kick. Otherwise I would take the fins off and find myself doing really big inefficient kicks as I had gotten used to applying power to the kick. It's easy to go fast with fins but I found it better to mainly use them to help maintain body position.

chaos
February 5th, 2007, 04:47 PM
[QUOTE=The Fortress;77325] My coach, with assists from folks on the team, is processing all those entry forms. QUOTE]

is this a coded offer to get muppet and me in adjacent lanes...if so i accept...payment after heats are posted.;)

The Fortress
February 5th, 2007, 04:49 PM
Regarding learning fly (:thhbbb:), if you do get the TI video keep in mind that it is teaching the one kick per stroke version of fly, and there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that but it is useful to know that if you are used to or expect the two kick style. At least the old video did, I haven't seen the new one. And if you're not careful you could end up learning butterfrog!

I found fins were useful as long as I minimized the kick. Otherwise I would take the fins off and find myself doing really big inefficient kicks as I had gotten used to applying power to the kick. It's easy to go fast with fins but I found it better to mainly use them to help maintain body position.

Rich:

Please don't learn fly with a one beat kick and resist butterfrog. I don't think butterfrog should be taught to children, as I read was a possibility on another swimming forum that I won't name, and I don't think at your young age you need to resort to it. I think you have the mental and physical ability to learn fly correctly. After all, you are the SwimStud. So skip the TI videos (assuming there is no two beat kick) and take all the advice and read all the threads and clips referenced here.

Just use fins for body position. Do not emphasize the kicks with them when swimming fly, except when you're SDK-ing off the turn. Then when you take them off, you won't be doing big whomping kicks.

LindsayNB
February 5th, 2007, 04:53 PM
I agree that would be quite fun. But at a big meet like Colonies Zones, no way! My coach, with assists from folks on the team, is processing all those entry forms. It is a huge pain to do all the input work as well as all the meet director stuff. She also gets boatloads of late entries, and accepts many of them. It's difficult enough to host a meet like that without worrying about adjacent lane preferences.

That's what online entry systems and computers are for! Manual entries are for the birds! (note "fly" related reference) That way your coach can stick to teaching people to swim fly! (another token attempt at staying on topic!)

Oh, just thought of a more relevant fly tie in: one mistake I made was trying too hard to imitate Michael Phelps. He has a great stroke but he also has incredible flexibility and conditioning and everything else. And a lot of the MP video is from 200 fly which is often swum a little differently than a 50. You probably don't want to breath every stroke in the 50 for example, and will probably swim it a little flatter.

Also, based on my personal experience, master the 50 and 100 fly before trying to tackle the 200 fly.

The Fortress
February 5th, 2007, 04:57 PM
That's what online entry systems and computers are for! Manual entries are for the birds! (note "fly" related reference) That way your coach can stick to teaching people to swim fly! (another token attempt at staying on topic!)

I have never participated in any meet besides Nationals and Worlds that had an on-line entry system.

My coach is a great flyer. :thhbbb: She is also a former Canadian Olympian. She also runs a good meet.

I agree with Lindsay. Skip the 200 fly for awhile. Jeff Roddin, for example, has been swimming it for like a zillion years. Start with drills, then build up to 25s and 50s.

Caped Crusader
February 5th, 2007, 06:31 PM
Can we get back to posting about me learning to Fly please...

:thhbbb:

hehe



Venom: I can't believe you're now taking up fly. (I'm not.) You're certainly showing a lot of enthusiasm for the sport. I admire that. Just don't neglect the wife and kids. He, he. ;) Can you please call freestyle "freestyle" instead of "crawl?"

swim4me
February 5th, 2007, 07:20 PM
Glad the fly project is going well. Not thinking of you as a breaststroker. Thinking of you as a soon-to-be-converted flyer!! Also, judging from your answer on the superhero thread, it appears you may be a FAF Sista too! :banana: Maybe SwimStud will be converted after he gets his lesson from fly stud Barra.

Whenever I do the hair thing, I just hope right back in the water. Do you really have to wait?



Fort -

Yes I am a FAF Sista:banana: :banana: :banana: ! Fly still going good, though not yet ready to give up my Breaststroke. I usually get right back in the pool after the hair thing also, but it is getting so damaged (its long) that she put a serum conditioner in it and I wanted to keep it in as long as possible (I'm having a difficult time looking 'professional' at work with my dry hair, but I'm dealing with it).

Jim -

The dark side is pulling me over (I can feel it), but until my Fly times are better than my Breaststroke times (relatively), I remain a Breaststroker. What has changed, is that I now believe that Fly has a chance to be one of my individual strokes. I have gone many, many years believing that I could never do it properly, and now it is starting to feel good and fast :groovy: .

chaos
February 5th, 2007, 07:48 PM
Regarding learning fly (:thhbbb:), if you do get the TI video keep in mind that it is teaching the one kick per stroke version of fly, and there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that but it is useful to know that if you are used to or expect the two kick style. At least the old video did, I haven't seen the new one. And if you're not careful you could end up learning butterfrog!

the new dvd "Better Fly For Everybody" demonstrates butterfly with 1 kick, two kicks and b-frog...as well as a progression of drills that should get Mr. Tea and Crumpet (beans-on toast) to the style that best suits him.

chaos
February 5th, 2007, 07:50 PM
off topic warning......
hey fort, do i hear a mixed relay challange for zones?

The Fortress
February 5th, 2007, 08:03 PM
off topic warning......
hey fort, do i hear a mixed relay challange for zones?


Off topic :applaud: Rich and Lindsay :thhbbb:

Do you have some fast chicks on your team? Can't recall for sure, but I believe our 35+ mixed age medley got 2nd last year behind the indomitable Curl-Burke. (It's bad enough they dominate age group swimming, I wish they'd leave masters alone. But they believe in signing everyone up right before zones to score big. :mad: If there were a thumbs down smilie, I'd use one now. )

Our problem is we have a paucity of breaststrokers on our team. I guess we better get our act together and recruit some ... if we're going to keep up with you Adirondack folk. Is Terry swimming butterfrog on that relay or is he defering to you? I'm assuming the latter.

As for the free relays, I'm sure we'd take you on. I'd get to swim with my coach/meet director and two fast boys. So, let's race!

I'm glad the new TI video teaches the 2 beat kick too. Whew. I'm sure the drill sequence is excellent.

Kathy:
Yippee. Flash Sista!! Keep up that fly. :groovy: Maybe we can have a Flash Sista fly relay some time?

chaos
February 5th, 2007, 08:08 PM
Off topic :applaud: Rich and Lindsay :thhbbb:

Do you have some fast chicks on your team? Can't recall for sure, but I believe our 35+ (or whatever age, my age prevents me from remembering) mixed age medley got 2nd last year behind the indomitable Curl-Burke. (It's bad enough they dominate age group swimming, I wish they'd leave masters alone. But they believe in signing everyone up right before zones to score big. If there were a thumbs down smilie, I'd use one now.)

Our problem is we have no real breaststrokers on our team. We have one great guy who practices with us, but he is officially a member of a rival club and hates relays. (Need another thumbs down smilie.) I guess we better get our act together and recruit some breaststrokers ... if we're going to keep up with you Adirondack folk. Is Terry swimming butterfrog on that relay or is he defering to you?

As for the free relays, I'm sure we'd take you on. I'd get to swim with my 41 year old coach/meet director and two fast boys. So, let's race!
.

i think i get fly on any medley relays. we too are light on breast strokers this year. the mighty joe bubel has been out w/shoulder issues for the past two years ( i think he's milking it). the good thing about relays is you can sign up right there! so lets play it by ear.

swim4me
February 5th, 2007, 09:15 PM
Kathy:
Yippee. Flash Sista!! Keep up that fly. :groovy: Maybe we can have a Flash Sista fly relay some time?


Sounds like a plan, Flash Sista!!!!:groovy: :groovy:

SwimStud
February 5th, 2007, 10:03 PM
I don't know what the rules are for swimming in relays but i'll gladly Breast for anyone who needs it, and I am allowed but I am guessing not b/c of points right? Offer stands for any unofficial races though.

Caped--I never neglect my wife...she is after all, a female *points to nametag* LOL I'm taking my youngest swimmig on Friday for "guys night" shoe him how to strut around the deck properly. Then Snday I have a family meet and my 9 year old is going to swim 25 front crawl and 25 breaststroke...she has a good smooth frog kick and does 2 strokes one breath at present. I'm not stopping her that's a good drill that she is doing of her own accord. To me freestyle is a category...most people just swim front crawl during it. I'll make you a deal get this country to put the "U" back in words like laboUr and coloUr and I'll call it freestyle. OK?

chaos
February 5th, 2007, 10:17 PM
To me freestyle is a category...most people just swim front crawl during it. I'll make you a deal get this country to put the "U" back in words like laboUr and coloUr and I'll call it freestyle. OK?

mr webster liberated us from such french influence.:applaud:
why do the english have such a time letting go of superfluous letters:dunno:

as in worchestershireshere sauce (pronounced w'ster) :shakeshead:


don't even get me started on that cockney rhyming stuff:frustrated:

chaos
February 5th, 2007, 10:20 PM
I don't know what the rules are for swimming in relays but i'll gladly Breast for anyone who needs it, and I am allowed but I am guessing not b/c of points right? Offer stands for any unofficial races though.

pretty sure you would have to be registered ADMS to enter a relay with us....sorry.
but sign up for zones anyway!

SwimStud
February 5th, 2007, 10:24 PM
pretty sure you would have to be registered ADMS to enter a relay with us....sorry.
but sign up for zones anyway!

Yeah I've gotta get that form in. Toying with the New England in Boston too as a training meet. Do you think that's a good idea?

SwimStud
February 5th, 2007, 10:27 PM
Yeah I've gotta get that form in. Toying with the New England in Boston too as a training meet. Do you think that's a good idea?

Haha Cockney rhyming slang is from my part of the country. Evolved as secret language by criminals to avoid being arrested by the police.

Webster was wrong...or should have at least had the deceny to call the language Amerish or something.

You forgot Leicester pronounced Lester. Dave don't get me started on Italian American pronounciations either
Parmesan and Fagiloi being my favorites.
;) Damn tasty though however you say it. LOL

ensignada
February 5th, 2007, 10:41 PM
Dave don't get me started on Italian American pronounciations either
Parmesan and Fagiloi being my favorites.
;) Damn tasty though however you say it. LOL

Pasta e fagiole is my 6 year old's favorite soup (my recipe - wickedly good if I do say so), but I've had to teach her the "American" way to say it so that people will know what she's talking about.

chaos
February 5th, 2007, 10:41 PM
Yeah I've gotta get that form in. Toying with the New England in Boston too as a training meet. Do you think that's a good idea?
i've never swum in any nems meets, but i'm sure they put on a good show. there are some pretty good facilities in boston.

my club usually turns up in force for the mashpee super swim 5k (on cape cod) june 23 this year. (thats where we get to race the new england crowd)

The Fortress
February 5th, 2007, 10:42 PM
mr webster liberated us from such french influence.:applaud:
why do the english have such a time letting go of superfluous letters:dunno:




:eek: :eek: :eek:

Another slur on zee French?!?! I'm with Rich. Let us keep the "u" even though our respective ancestors spent their lives bashing each other in all those hundred year wars.

Why are there never any slurs on zee Italians? Although the language and country is so beautiful I see no need. Oops, I see SwimStud slurred the Italians ...

As to fly, did you do your chest pressing drills tonight SwimStud?

chaos
February 5th, 2007, 10:43 PM
Pasta e fagiole is my 6 year old's favorite soup (my recipe - wickedly good if I do say so), but I've had to teach her the "American" way to say it so that people will know what she's talking about.

do i see a "recipes" thread in the near future?

gregory
February 5th, 2007, 10:48 PM
The secret to the fly is learning the body dolphin. Endurance and power in the flly comes from perfecting the body dolphin and then learning to superimpose the armstroke upon it. The kick should not be muscled, but rather your legs and body should act like the whip of a big fin. Practice swimming laps doing the bodydolphin without the pull.

For the pull I use the breastroke pullout. So, swim a 25 pull, then a 25 bodydolphin, then a 25 one-arm fly using alternating arms, and then a 25 full fly. Doing this routine will help to get the timing of the fly.

It takes years to learn the cooridation of the pull and the bodydolphin -- you need a coach.

The basic routine for the fly is to be able to swim a mile of fly in an hour. Doing 50's is great for technique, while 200's are good for your endurance and ego.

Good Luck!

Gregory

SwimStud
February 5th, 2007, 10:49 PM
do i see a "recipes" thread in the near future?

I'll stack my Carrot Soup or Baklava up against any others (it won the approval of Greek Grandmothers too)
My Grandfather fought in Sicily & Italy in WWII.
He was there for 2 years learned Italian fluently. He went back in 1980 something and visited Venice, started talkin in Italiano to the Gondolier. The Gondolier would not believe that my grandfather was not Italian or of Italian parents...and that was after 40 years.

jeez I honestly am not really this big-headed. I just post that way

SwimStud
February 5th, 2007, 10:52 PM
The secret to the fly is learning the body dolphin. Endurance and power in the flly comes from perfecting the body dolphin and then learning to superimpose the armstroke upon it. The kick should not be muscled, but rather your legs and body should act like the whip of a big fin. Practice swimming laps doing the bodydolphin without the pull.

For the pull I use the breastroke pullout. So, swim a 25 pull, then a 25 bodydolphin, then a 25 one-arm fly using alternating arms, and then a 25 full fly. Doing this routine will help to get the timing of the fly.

It takes years to learn the cooridation of the pull and the bodydolphin -- you need a coach.

The basic routine for the fly is to be able to swim a mile of fly in an hour. Doing 50's is great for technique, while 200's are good for your endurance and ego.

Good Luck!

Gregory

Thanks Gregory.
Why does everyone keep saying "200" LOL
Mind you everyone kept drawing beath when I said I was doing a 200BR for my first ever mastermeet...that kinda worried me too.

SwimStud
February 5th, 2007, 11:02 PM
As to fly, did you do your chest pressing drills tonight SwimStud?

Not tonight the cute life guard wasn't there to show off too, and my back is twingy. Wed night I will I promise...


Oh that reminds me. Using a pull buoy on breast hurts my lower back...too much prolonged hyper extension . Anyone have any alternate ideas for me?

poolraat
February 6th, 2007, 12:04 AM
Not tonight the cute life guard wasn't there to show off too,a nd my back is twingy. Wed night I will I promise...


Oh that reminds me. Using a pull buoy on breast hurts my lower back...too much prolonged hyper extension . Anyone have any alternate ideas for me?

I did mine tonight. I do them without the buoy. Both head lead and hand lead.

some_girl
February 6th, 2007, 09:17 AM
Yeah I've gotta get that form in. Toying with the New England in Boston too as a training meet. Do you think that's a good idea?

New Englands is an awesome meet: well run, well attended, fast pool.

SwimStud
February 6th, 2007, 09:22 AM
New Englands is an awesome meet: well run, well attended, fast pool.

Are you going? That's the clincher for me ;) Are we going to go head to head this time? A neutral event perhaps?



This thread should be renamed Learning to Fly and Generic Gauntlet Tossing.

The Fortress
February 6th, 2007, 10:34 AM
The secret to the fly is learning the body dolphin.

It takes years to learn the cooridation of the pull and the bodydolphin -- you need a coach.

The basic routine for the fly is to be able to swim a mile of fly in an hour. Doing 50's is great for technique, while 200's are good for your endurance and ego.

It is true that the secret to the fly is the body dolphin. A coach is preferable, but I think you can still learn on your own. Many masters coaches are "ready go" coaches, so you might not get a lot of technique tips anyway. I think if you study the videos, do the drills and go have a session with the Barra Stud, you'll be fine. It can take a long time to get it right though, especially if you didn't do it much in youth.

As to the "basic routine," I had a good laugh. I don't think that's the "basic routine" for most masters except Dave. You especially don't want to gorge on fly until you've mastered the technique or there could be some nasty shoulder repercussions. Ouch. Besides, it sounds awful anyway. (No offense Gregory) I'm sure SwimStud can keep his ego boosted with those hours of breaststroking. And Rich, remember, Ande says you have to "act as if."

P.S. I hate pull buoys, Brit Buoy. You don't need 'em.

Muppet
February 6th, 2007, 11:10 AM
New Englands is an awesome meet: well run, well attended, fast pool.

I've done a couple meets in New England. Swam one of the summer LCM mini meets back in '04 at MIT - awesome pool (Anyone happen to have a copy of those results around???) - and did zones @ Wheaton College that fall with a cast.

Am thinking about making it up to the region for another meet, but not sure that is in the cards this spring.

aquaFeisty
February 6th, 2007, 11:15 AM
If you want to pull breaststroke, do the pull with either a dolphin kick or flutter kick. Dolphin kick helps you use the whole body to generate the forward motion, but sometimes my undulation gets a bit out of control. Personal fave is flutter kick because it doesn't allow you to use the legs to generate the wave motion... gotta use your core.

Breast with a pull buoy is a back-destroyer.

poolraat
February 6th, 2007, 11:28 AM
One thing I've noticed, is when I do a lot of fly, or just SDK, in my workouts, my lower back will be sore later. Anyone else have this problem?

SwimStud
February 6th, 2007, 11:41 AM
One thing I've noticed, is when I do a lot of fly, or just SDK, in my workouts, my lower back will be sore later. Anyone else have this problem?

Yeah I am treading carefully for that reason.


If you want to pull breaststroke, do the pull with either a dolphin kick or flutter kick. Dolphin kick helps you use the whole body to generate the forward motion, but sometimes my undulation gets a bit out of control. Personal fave is flutter kick because it doesn't allow you to use the legs to generate the wave motion...gotta use your core.

Breast with a pull buoy is a back-destroyer.

It's a pull set right after a kick set and rest for the legs after the kick set while working the arms. I have other sets for the pull /dolphin. Maybe i'll get some arm floats and hook em over my ankles...lol

aquaFeisty
February 6th, 2007, 11:44 AM
I've posted before that last season my main focus was 2 dolphins off every turn and 100% 6-beat kick in practice.

We started in Nov and I think it took me till maybe Jan or Feb before my core muscles were strong enough that my lower back didn't ache a bit towards the end of practice. It was never a really painful ache, though.

One thing that I was told... think about using the hips a bit more and the lower back a bit less. Unfortunately, this advice didn't do much for me, but maybe it will help you!

aquaFeisty
February 6th, 2007, 11:48 AM
It's a pull set right after a kick set and rest for the legs after the kick set while working the arms. I have other sets for the pull /dolphin. Maybe i'll get some arm floats and hook em over my ankles...lol

Ewww... flutterkick with breast pull is NOT going to rest your legs, that's for sure. Maybe just rest up with some elementary backstroke? :joker:

some_girl
February 6th, 2007, 12:28 PM
One thing I've noticed, is when I do a lot of fly, or just SDK, in my workouts, my lower back will be sore later. Anyone else have this problem?

To a certain extent, yes, but I've always been told it's from not using your core enough, and, as I have improved my fly, it happens less. So use your tum!

some_girl
February 6th, 2007, 12:35 PM
Are you going? That's the clincher for me ;) Are we going to go head to head this time? A neutral event perhaps?

Yes. It's one of our taper meets (and after the practices we've been having lately, I am dreaming of taper). But we can't go head to head because they separate boys and girls. It'll be the best competition near home all year though, so I strongly encourage going.

SwimStud
February 6th, 2007, 01:24 PM
Ewww... flutterkick with breast pull is NOT going to rest your legs, that's for sure. Maybe just rest up with some elementary backstroke? :joker:

That won't give me "McCauley" legs though. I think I'll try just without the buoy. Unless Wayne gets back in time to gie me an alternative.

Elementary backstroke...were you spying on me at the Y last night? I saw a face at the window...laughing, as I crashed into the lane lines hehe

LOL

The Fortress
February 6th, 2007, 01:27 PM
Maybe i'll get some arm floats and hook em over my ankles...lol

That's what we call fins, SwimStud. :thhbbb: They keep your feet afloat so you can concentrate on undulation and your body dolphin. Fins might help with those McCauley legs too!

My back is fine and I do tons of drills and SDKs, etc. Never hurts. Now, I haven't had past back problems, so I'm lucky. You really need a strong core. But if you keep plugging away at it, you'll get one! I always feel like fins/monfins help work my butt off (literally, not figuratively, that is).

SwimStud
February 6th, 2007, 01:32 PM
That's what we call fins, SwimStud. :thhbbb: They keep your feet afloat so you can concentrate on undulation and your body dolphin.

My back is fine and I do tons of drills and SDKs, etc. Never hurts. Now, I haven't had past back problems, so I'm lucky. You really need a strong core. But if you keep plugging away at it, you'll get one! I always feel like fins/monfins help work my butt off (literally, not figuratively, that is).

Oh for the love of Goodhew! Y'all hijack my thread and then change the topic and misread my Q's. Sheeesh! ;)

Breast-pull with the buoy as per Waynes's workout kills my back. That's what I was asking for alternatives on. I don't know about this fin business.

Hehe Ok I'll try fins as a flotation device. I though you used fins to save your shoulders Fort, but in reality it's b/c you're too lazy to kick, right?

The Fortress
February 6th, 2007, 01:40 PM
Oh for the love of Goodhew! Y'all hijack my thread and then change the topic and misread my Q's. Sheeesh! ;)

Breast-pull with the buoy as per Waynes's workout kills my back. That's what I was asking for alternatives on. I don't know about this fin business.

Hehe Ok I'll try fins as a flotation device. I though you used fins to save your shoulders Fort, but in reality it's b/c you're too lazy to kick, right?

Oh for the love of Crocker, I was discussing fly -- the assigned topic of this thread. I just couldn't resist the zing. ;)

I do use fins to save the shoulders. But if you're a beginning flyer, I really think they help with body position. They keep your hips from dropping and keep the bottom half of the body up. (That's the reason they take a load off the shoulders.) I use my monofin for SDKs, but I kick without fins or boards. I even did a 50 SDK for time today no fins. :banana: It almost killed me.

I'm just too lazy to learn breaststroke properly. :laugh2:

SwimStud
February 6th, 2007, 01:40 PM
Yes. It's one of our taper meets (and after the practices we've been having lately, I am dreaming of taper). But we can't go head to head because they separate boys and girls. It'll be the best competition near home all year though, so I strongly encourage going.

I'll do the form this week--I won't startle you on the blocks this time though...
:rofl:

poolraat
February 6th, 2007, 01:46 PM
I even did a 50 SDK for time today no fins. :banana: It almost killed me.

Are you going to tell us your time? Ande would.

The Fortress
February 6th, 2007, 02:01 PM
Are you going to tell us your time? Ande would.

I just did on Ande's blog, although I would like to point out that I'm not Ande or anywhere near as fast as Ande. I also did 2 more push off 26s in the 50 fly as part of that Modified Set #3 referred to on his tips or blog. (Fins--doctors order right now on fly and free). I now expect a report on times of all posters to this thread. :yawn:

This thread is turning into the fly blog. That's cool.

SwimStud
February 6th, 2007, 02:06 PM
I just did on Ande's blog, although I would like to point out that I'm not Ande or anywhere near as fast as Ande. I also did 2 more push off 26s in the 50 fly as part of that Modified Set #3 referred to on his tips or blog. (Fins--doctors order right now on fly and free). I now expect a report on times of all posters to this thread. :yawn:

This thread is turning into the fly blog. That's cool.

Well I do a 25 in 17 secs... LOL

Caped Crusader
February 6th, 2007, 02:09 PM
Hehe Ok I'll try fins as a flotation device. I though you used fins to save your shoulders Fort, but in reality it's b/c you're too lazy to kick, right?

Fins are good for whacking people with. Monofins look like weapons.

SwimStud
February 6th, 2007, 02:11 PM
Fins are good for whacking people with. Monofins look like weapons.
Whacking as in "Mafia" whacking?

Caped Crusader
February 6th, 2007, 02:15 PM
Whacking as in "Mafia" whacking?

No, as in whacking people who become too obsessed with swimming and ignore their spouses.

Does anyone in the world that doesn't swim even know what a monofin is?

SwimStud
February 6th, 2007, 02:18 PM
No, as in whacking people who become too obsessed with swimming and ignore their spouses.

Does anyone in the world that doesn't swim even know what a monofin is?


you want to be careful with that...funnily though, the more I get into swimming the more my spouse ignores me...

You can't please all the people all the time...

jaegermeister
February 7th, 2007, 10:29 PM
This thread is turning into the fly blog. That's cool.

Here's my recent favorite fly set: reverse ladder, 75-50-25-25-50-75. The goal is to decend the pace going down, then maintaining the pace going up. This week I swam it at an interval of :35 per 25 yards. Times:
75's: 1st 58 sec, 2nd 55 sec
50's: 1st 37, 2nd 36
25's: 1st 17+, 2nd 16+

I wouldn't have been able to give you these times but I did it after the scheduled practice was over and coach stuck around to get my times.

The Fortress
February 7th, 2007, 10:50 PM
Here's my recent favorite fly set: reverse ladder, 75-50-25-25-50-75. The goal is to decend the pace going down, then maintaining the pace going up. This week I swam it at an interval of :35 per 25 yards.

I like that ladder. I'll give it a whirl. After I did my 250 fly as part of a 250-150-50 x 3 stroke set, Ande said bad. Never do 250 flys. Never take one stroke in fly that is not perfect. That's what my first masters coach (Olympic finalist) said too. I'm thinking this is good advice.

Great times, Tom! Keep up the good work there at my favorite pool.

poolraat
February 8th, 2007, 07:39 PM
Never take one stroke in fly that is not perfect. ...... I'm thinking this is good advice.

I've been trying to follow this advice since my coach began to emphasize this a year or so ago. Because of that I very seldom do more than 50-75 fly continuous. One thing I have noticed also, is the breakout after turns plays a big part in how the remainder of the lenth is swum. Good breakout usually means good stroke for the rest of the length and so on. I also make it a point to not breath on the breakout stroke and first stroke after. I think this has helped as I've seen about a 2 sec improvement in my 50 over the past year and I'm getting enough confidence in the stroke that I am considering swimming a 100 in my next meet in an attempt to get NQT.

I've only been swimming fly for about 3 years having learned (still learning actually) it as a 50 something.