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jim thornton
February 8th, 2007, 10:24 PM
Let us settle the fluff vs. physiology matter by vote.

jsmwbnc
February 8th, 2007, 10:28 PM
As long as there is not a "just for fun" section, General Discussions is fine the way it is. However, if the mods create an anything goes section then General Discussions should be strictly swimming. I think a "just for fun" section would be a great idea.

jim thornton
February 8th, 2007, 10:33 PM
It should say somewhere on it where you can post you answer

Warren
February 9th, 2007, 12:17 AM
keep it swimming related.

Seagurl51
February 9th, 2007, 12:38 AM
I meant to click the third option but clicked the second one by accident, just realized that and I can't fix it.

USMSarah
February 9th, 2007, 08:21 AM
I believe that it was Fortress who said -in the "dating a swimmer" thread- that people on this forum are friends and we're bound to talk about other things besides swimming. I don't see the problem with that - if you don't like the TOPIC, don't read it/don't comment and move on. We are all adults. I totally understand that this is a SWIMMING site, but the "problem" could certainly be fixed with another section for friends to BS about whatever. If I just talked to my teammates ONLY about swimming, I'd go nuts and I'm sure they would get very annoyed with me.

born2fly
February 9th, 2007, 08:31 AM
Sarah-your already nuts :p but I admit I am not much the chatty type at morning practice.

By the way, I will not be at the meet this weekend. Im going to the dr. today. I have had shoulder problems and have been trying to block out the pain but this week in the water it just was not working for me. I have a bad feeling my swimming may be done for awhile :-(

Good luck at the meet this weekend.

Greg

USMSarah
February 9th, 2007, 08:40 AM
Ok... I am a little crazy.:wiggle:

It is kinda hard to strike up a convo at 5am. HA HA.

BUT ANYWAYS - I'm so sorry that your shoulder is hurting! :( Done for a while? Did you wrench it bad, or has it just been a slow progression of pain?

We will miss you being there! It will be good for you to not swim on Saturday because of your CRAZY lineup (400IM, 200FLY, and the 1650).

newmastersswimmer
February 9th, 2007, 09:42 AM
As one of the stiffest ultra-conservative on-topic posters around here, I just want to go on record as saying that I only support NSR topics if they promote the views of the ultra-religious right wing.....but ONLY in that case.

Newmastersswimmer

The Fortress
February 9th, 2007, 10:34 AM
By the way, I will not be at the meet this weekend. Im going to the dr. today. I have had shoulder problems and have been trying to block out the pain but this week in the water it just was not working for me. I have a bad feeling my swimming may be done for awhile

Just remember, Greg, there is allegedly "no evidence" that fly is hard on shoulders. :rofl: Get better soon.

The Fortress
February 9th, 2007, 01:13 PM
I meant to click the third option but clicked the second one by accident, just realized that and I can't fix it.

Judging by the recent thread closure, I don't think the third option is an option anymore.

Seagurl51
February 9th, 2007, 01:46 PM
Judging by the recent thread closure, I don't think the third option is an option anymore.

Honestly, I'm kinda surprised that it was open as long as it was.

Hopefully though, now that it's all out in the open we can work on a civil way of working it out so everybody is happy. This isn't the first time this issue has come up, so it obiviously needs to be addressed.

gull
February 9th, 2007, 01:52 PM
I just have to wonder if, perhaps, the intervals aren't tough enough when Fortress's teammates have the time (and breath) to discuss women's bodies, pms, cute lifeguards, etc. during practice. Usually it's all I can do not to hurl my latte into the gutter. My training partner and I communicate via grunts and gestures between repeats.

Seagurl51
February 9th, 2007, 01:56 PM
Practice isn't everything. I don't talk during practice (not enough air to fuel my muslces let alone my voice), but there does happen to be a before and after to get to know the people that see you half naked everyday. My team often has parties outside the pool so that everyone can get together and hang out. We talk about swimming, but it doesn't dominate the conversation. Swimming's a community and that can't be built on facts and figures alone.


And that's all the fuel I'm going to give to this fire...........:drink:

SwimStud
February 9th, 2007, 01:59 PM
I just have to wonder if, perhaps, the intervals aren't tough enough when Fortress's teammates have the time (and breath) to discuss women's bodies, pms, cute lifeguards, etc. during practice. Usually it's all I can do not to hurl my latte into the gutter. My training partner and I communicate via grunts and gestures between repeats.

Alright...let's leave Fortress alone. The censorship brigade won and made their point on the thread that contained all the references to those things you mentioned. The mods shut it down.

I'd consider your post a large wooden spoon stirring a rather vast pot...if I was the sensitive type that like my swimming threads hardcore and un-humoured...


Just as apoint of note...the majority like a little bit of fun with their swimmng postings if the above poll is to be taken as a sample

Allen Stark
February 9th, 2007, 02:11 PM
I am constantly amused at how a topic can start in one direction and move in several other directions,often all at once. Although I am sometimes put off by the process overall I think it adds to the enjoyment,as long as it doesn't get too personal. After all if breaststrokers and backstrokers,sprinters and distance swimmers can get along there is hope for the world.:wiggle:

aquageek
February 9th, 2007, 02:18 PM
A sign of a good workout is a lack of conversation.

Speaking of gestures, I gave our coach a single finger hello after a set the other day. That was a big mistake as evidenced by the next set he created on the fly.

3degree
February 9th, 2007, 02:48 PM
I don't see a bunch of other swimming forum sites to use as examples....

Here's a swimming forum site that is laid out a little differently: http://swimmingforums.domainminds.com/forum/

A British site: http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/index.php?

Here's an example of one that I don't see much about swimming on at all... http://www.4swimmersonly.com/portal/index.php?sid=03dc712d580138750b0b3a87c873546a

This one looks to stay pretty on-topic: http://www.goswim.tv/pMachinePro/forum/forum.php?id=F2_0

newmastersswimmer
February 9th, 2007, 02:59 PM
Speaking of gestures, I gave our coach a single finger hello after a set the other day. That was a big mistake as evidenced by the next set he created on the fly. posted by Aquageek

Interesting how you get to define what is and isn't too obscene to post around here after making such an obscene comment on a family oriented website Geek. You are a massive hypocrite Geek ....and I really don't care if the moderators suspend me for saying that in public here. I also think your buddy Gull is a bag of hot air for attacking fortress the way he did.


Newmastersswimmer

knelson
February 9th, 2007, 03:02 PM
As one of the stiffest ultra-conservative on-topic posters around here

We're all just hoping you could come out of your shell once in a while and lighten up! :joker:
------------------
I enjoy reading the actual swimming content on this forum, but I think it would get awfully sterile around here if that was all anyone ever talked about. Yeah, there are times when the off-topic stuff gets tedious, but this is a discussion fourm. No one person here can control the direction that discussion takes. The organic nature of these web bulletin boards is really what makes them so appealing.

knelson
February 9th, 2007, 03:05 PM
Interesting how you get to define what is and isn't too obscene to post around here after making such an obscene comment on a family oriented website Geek.

Oh, come on Jim. How obscene is writing about giving someone the bird?

newmastersswimmer
February 9th, 2007, 03:14 PM
Oh, come on Jim. How obscene is writing about giving someone the bird? posted by Kirk Nelson

Nothing in my opinion....but if you are going to point the finger at everyone else about mentioning bras and such, then yaeh....to say something like that makes you a hypocritical coward IMO ...You disagree?

Newmastersswimmer

jim clemmons
February 9th, 2007, 03:15 PM
I'm with Allen and Kirk as to at least attempting to keep it more related to swimming as opposed to less related. Sometimes it degrades for a number of posts to have absolutely no relationship to swimming.

Maybe a little more PM'ing on off-topics might be appreciated.

aquageek
February 9th, 2007, 03:16 PM
I'm happy to be included in the company of real swimmers you complain about and thanks for the compliment.

I'm also mad at gull for telling everyone I like pork rinds.

SwimStud
February 9th, 2007, 03:16 PM
Oh, come on Jim. How obscene is writing about giving someone the bird?

No more so than mentioning underwear in a non sexual depicting way. What do I know though? I'm from another continent. I'm quite used to and not hung up and scared of underwear or talking about it. Funny how it's us Brits that get labled as uptight though right?

I think theres a few of us trying to perhaps illustrate hypocrisy and double standards Kirk, not having a go, but some of us have been attacked, and criticised for non-swimming related comments and threads.

Why is the finger or description thereof not considered either vulgar, or comedic in it's use. I don't care either way but I'm not bleating about a few funny threads ruining aqua-utopia.

SwimStud
February 9th, 2007, 03:22 PM
I'm with Allen and Kirk as to at least attempting to keep it more related to swimming as opposed to less related. Sometimes it degrades for a number of posts to have absolutely no relationship to swimming.

Maybe a little more PM'ing on off-topics might be appreciated.

Jim I agree and I am sure that nobody intentionally goes about wrecking threads but what's the harm in humour. Sure if you ask about a drill, and the best I come up with is a sexual innuendo about the "size of my chuck" then yeah, it is wrong to post it, funny or otherwise.
I don't see a lot of blatant hijacks like that though. there are several threads I wanted to put a humourous reply on but did not, out of respect for the OP. On others, like Ande's I know he dishes out his sage advice with a large helping of humour...so feel it is cool to respond in the same vein.

A thread about dating and marriage will contain a comment or two of /giggle /crush in it. At least, common sense would indicate this. Which is where this bruhahahahaha started.

Rich

knelson
February 9th, 2007, 03:31 PM
and the best I come up with is a sexual innuendo about the "size of my chuck"

Hey, leave George Park out of this! :)

jim clemmons
February 9th, 2007, 03:33 PM
Rich,

I totally agree with your comments as well. I fully expect not to capture any useful information from something obscurely entitled "Pet's and swimming" so would tend to ignore it. Yet, in a moment of boredom, might go looking for a space to insert a ribald comment as there has got to be place in it somewhere, for one.

gull
February 9th, 2007, 03:35 PM
I also think your buddy Gull is a bag of hot air for attacking fortress the way he did.


Then I guess I'm an old fashioned bag of hot air because I don't discuss women's bodies and pms in front of my female teammates.

swimr4life
February 9th, 2007, 03:37 PM
Trouble in paradise....whoa...I'm gone for a few days to come back to all this?! I'm so sorry. My personal opinion?.. I think levity is so important in life. Life is hard enough without being able to laugh at ourselves.

Now :smooch: and make up!

newmastersswimmer
February 9th, 2007, 03:40 PM
I will pm my response to your last remark gull to try and keep this thread somewhat civil from here on out o.k.

newmastersswimmer

SwimStud
February 9th, 2007, 03:42 PM
Hey, leave George Park out of this! :)


LOL You'll get us all in a heap of trouble lol

tjburk
February 9th, 2007, 03:43 PM
Sounds like we have a new Tom and Ion clash brewing in here!!!!:argue:

The Fortress
February 9th, 2007, 03:45 PM
I just have to wonder if, perhaps, the intervals aren't tough enough when Fortress's teammates have the time (and breath) to discuss women's bodies, pms, cute lifeguards, etc. during practice. Usually it's all I can do not to hurl my latte into the gutter. My training partner and I communicate via grunts and gestures between repeats.

Happy to have you come swim with us. Come tomorrow at 12:30 pm. We are swimming with the college team. You can have some exposure to hard yardage and world and national champions. I haven't had to hurl any lattes in the gutter yet (I drink espresso). We also have a hottub where we have some after practice chats. I assume you're not against that?

scyfreestyler
February 9th, 2007, 03:46 PM
Oh, come on Jim. How obscene is writing about giving someone the bird?

IMHO, it is far less obscene/inappropriate/out of line than the subject matter being discussed elsewhere in this forum. If we can keep the singles/swingers material in the PM box, IM, or email I think everything will work out just fine.

scyfreestyler
February 9th, 2007, 03:48 PM
Then I guess I'm an old fashioned bag of hot air because I don't discuss women's bodies and pms in front of my female teammates.

That's called being a mature and respectful adult. Nothing to be ashamed of, I assure you. ;)

newmastersswimmer
February 9th, 2007, 03:54 PM
IMHO, it is far less obscene/inappropriate/out of line than the subject matter being discussed elsewhere in this forum. If we can keep the singles/swingers material in the PM box, IM, or email I think everything will work out just fine. posted by SCY Freestyler

I don't recall reading anything about swingers or adult pick up postings for singles or anything like that Matt....where did you read about any of that stuff Matt? Why do people like Geek and Gull get to decide for everyone else what is and is not appropriate to post around here? Why do you or anyone else get to decide that talking about flipping someone off is o.k. here...but mentioning a bra is not?...that's my point. Personally I don't care what people post here as long as the rules are fair for everyone and the posts aren't intended only to publicly humiliate someone other poster....I don't tell people what they can or cannot post hear...or try and be the the thread hijacking police for the forum. If I rib someone and they take it personally, then I apologize for it and move on....but I have never tried to post something simply to be mean or cruel to someone else.

newmastersswimmer

newmastersswimmer
February 9th, 2007, 03:56 PM
That's called being a mature and respectful adult. Nothing to be ashamed of, I assure you. posted by Matt

But attacking other posters with sarcasm intended soley to hurt is mature?

newmastersswimmer

SwimStud
February 9th, 2007, 03:59 PM
IMHO, it is far less obscene/inappropriate/out of line than the subject matter being discussed elsewhere in this forum. If we can keep the singles/swingers material in the PM box, IM, or email I think everything will work out just fine.

That's some leap to basically accuse a number of people as being swingers Matt, come on.

You laud Gull for not discussing body parts disrespectful to females but then infer that sort of thing b/c it's someone asks about dating/marrying athletes. 2+2 = 5

Nobody was graphic or sexual to any extent that would make me think this was Saturday Night in Vegas.

gull
February 9th, 2007, 04:00 PM
I will pm my response to your last remark gull to try and keep this thread somewhat civil from here on out o.k.

newmastersswimmer

C'mon, Jim, why don't you share with everyone the bon mots that you were kind enough to send me via pm?

My post was not an attack on Fortress. I was commenting on the fraternity house banter of her teammates. Maybe I'm just getting old (I did turn 49 today).

newmastersswimmer
February 9th, 2007, 04:02 PM
If you want to share it gull thats up to you now isn't it?

The Fortress
February 9th, 2007, 04:05 PM
Then I guess I'm an old fashioned bag of hot air because I don't discuss women's bodies and pms in front of my female teammates.

Gull:

You're right. Some of my teammates are a bit ribald. One told me last night that he was jealous of my hyper-thyroid because I could drink more vino. Another joked about his wife's calves. Everyone just laughed. If I couldn't take a joke or was thin skinned, I'm be drummed out of the fast lane. We're a trash talking bunch -- between sets not during sets generally. But we're all quite fast, so we're doing something right. Happy Birthday! I think it must be that 4 year age difference that's got you irked at me ...

Geek:

Perfectly happy to have my husband and children read my post regarding that supposedly offensive undergarment. When the whole family spends half their life in swimsuits and running shorts, it's not a big deal.

scyfreestyler
February 9th, 2007, 04:09 PM
Jim, the flirting that goes on around here just seems a little inappropriate at times..often times reminescent of some high school aged youths conversing over the internet. How are people like myself, married with kids, supposed to participate in a conversation like that?

"Oh yeah, your calves are pretty hot, can you post some more pics or maybe email me some? That would be sweet."

I don't recall all of the specifics and I am not inclined to go looking for them, but I do recall reading posts in many threads that seemed totally out of place.

Lastly, why do I get to decide what is okay and what is not? I don't. I am just presenting my opinion to be considered by others. People can do whatever it is they want to do, never mind me. If something is deemed inappropriate the moderators will surely let the responsible party know. Trust me, I've been there.

The Fortress
February 9th, 2007, 04:12 PM
"Oh yeah, your calves are pretty hot, can you post some more pics or maybe email me some? That would be sweet."



I believe it was Wayne McCauley who brought up "diamond calves."

SwimStud
February 9th, 2007, 04:12 PM
...the flirting that goes on around here just seems a little inappropriate at times..often times reminescent of some high school aged youths conversing over the internet. How are people like myself, married with kids, supposed to participate in a conversation like that?

"Oh yeah, your calves are pretty hot, can you post some more pics or maybe email me some? That would be sweet."



Matt but I don't think it is serious flirting at all...it's so tongue in cheek. At least that's how I read any and put any, but usually my are silly smooth guy compliments. I understand what you're getting at but I think you're misjudging it. I respect your opinion, but think labelling people swingers is a bit of a stretch.

scyfreestyler
February 9th, 2007, 04:13 PM
That's some leap to basically accuse a number of people as being swingers Matt, come on.

You laud Gull for not discussing body parts disrespectful to females but then infer that sort of thing b/c it's someone asks about dating/marrying athletes. 2+2 = 5

Nobody was graphic or sexual to any extent that would make me think this was Saturday Night in Vegas.


That was tongue in cheek and I think you know that. If you didn't, you do now.


I agree it was not anywhere near a peepshow but considering where this forum was several months ago, it's a big leap. Like I said before, these are just my opinions. You don't have to agree with them and I would not expect you to.

scyfreestyler
February 9th, 2007, 04:14 PM
I believe it was Wayne McCauley who brought up "diamond calves."

Why is he not in here then? The prosecution calls Mr. McCauley. :argue:

gull
February 9th, 2007, 04:15 PM
If you want to share it gull thats up to you now isn't it?


Could be the age thing, Jim, but I'm having some trouble with the spelling. Were there four * in "piece of ****"?

aquageek
February 9th, 2007, 04:16 PM
When the whole family spends half their life in swimsuits and running shorts, it's not a big deal.

I am off to a 3 day kids meet this weekend so your family is no more unique than mine, nor many other posters on this forum with swimming families.. Don't assume what is fine to you translates to everyone else.

The Fortress
February 9th, 2007, 04:18 PM
But attacking other posters with sarcasm intended soley to hurt is mature?

newmastersswimmer

Good thing I'm thick skinned. But I believe Cruise would say this is why so many female posters abandoned the forum during the prior flame wars.

scyfreestyler
February 9th, 2007, 04:18 PM
Could be the age thing, Jim, but I'm having some trouble with the spelling. Were there four * in "piece of ****"?

Wow.:laugh2:

SwimStud
February 9th, 2007, 04:19 PM
That was tongue in cheek and I think you know that. If you didn't, you do now.


I agree it was not anywhere near a peepshow but considering where this forum was several months ago, it's a big leap. Like I said before, these are just my opinions. You don't have to agree with them and I would not expect you to.

It's OK it's hard to say what's a joke and isn't in light of the oppsing forces right now. :)

swimr4life
February 9th, 2007, 04:24 PM
Happy Birthday Gull - see page 2 ! My birthday was Sunday....Woo hoo! 45-49 age group! (off topic..sorry!):D ;)

knelson
February 9th, 2007, 04:25 PM
Good thing I'm thick skinned.

There you go talking about body parts again!

aquageek
February 9th, 2007, 04:25 PM
Happy Birthday! My birthday was Sunday....Woo hoo! 45-49 age group! (off topic..sorry!):D ;)

Dawg:

I was mortified when I noted the times for 40-44 are actually faster than 35-39. It isn't supposed to get faster as we get older, is it? It's the Smiths ruining it for all us slow swimmers, to be sure.

The Fortress
February 9th, 2007, 04:29 PM
I am off to a 3 day kids meet this weekend so your family is no more unique than mine, nor many other posters on this forum with swimming families.. Don't assume what is fine to you translates to everyone else.

I never said my family was unique. There's zillions like us everywhere.

I also never assumed what was fine for me would be for you. We're obviously quite different and I don't like pork rinds. And you hate lawyers.

But, as to our posting, which is the poll topic, I would venture to say that I have written many many more serious meaty posts than you in the past few months. And I certainly don't spend most of my time on the forum flirting.

As for your attack-mode style, do you think that is fine for everyone?

SwimStud
February 9th, 2007, 04:30 PM
I am off to a 3 day kids meet this weekend so your family is no more unique than mine, nor many other posters on this forum with swimming families.. Don't assume what is fine to you translates to everyone else.

I block my kids internet and email to what I deem acceptable. It's the only way to stamp my sense of decent on to what they observe. My 5 year old got his mother's bra and was whizzing it around going "whoo-hoo" etc with it...he knows what it's for.

If it's not about your kids viewing it Geek what is it about? Really because someone said bra? Or because they spoke back and argued with you? I think I can yield to agree that some threads may have gotten interrupted with off topic posts but do you really expect us to believe that you find a bra offensive? Do you go to the beach, mall, watch TV or anything because there is way more flesh being provocatively thrust at your eyes than in the mention of a bra. Do swim with your eyes shut in case you see a female in the water? This just smacks of a collusive witch hunt...

Also, this is a masters forum (although its fast descending into something childish with this *** for tat smart ass comments war) nobody here should be that young to have not seen or held a piece of undergrment that belongs to the opposite sex.

Right...I'm going home now.

The Fortress
February 9th, 2007, 04:30 PM
I was mortified when I noted the times for 40-44 are actually faster than 35-39. It isn't supposed to get faster as we get older, is it? It's the Smiths ruining it for all us slow swimmers, to be sure.

If you want to get faster, you should come to my workouts. I'm sure we could help you make some progress.

gull
February 9th, 2007, 04:31 PM
Happy Birthday Gull - see page 2 ! My birthday was Sunday....Woo hoo! 45-49 age group! (off topic..sorry!):D ;)


Thanks. Looking forward to next year when I age up, just in time for nationals in Austin. Not that 50-54 is that much slower.

By the way, you should be able to spot me easily. Apparently I float.

aquageek
February 9th, 2007, 04:33 PM
And you hate lawyers.

That couldn't be further from the truth. About half our team is lawyers, all wonderful people.

Your posts are infinitely better than mine or anyone elses.

I have no issues with bras, I live with three women, a female nanny and an allegedly female betta fish. It was the context of the next few comments that were inappropriate, to me anyway.

We've all said our peace (not piece of ****) on this. Maybe it's time to move on.

The Fortress
February 9th, 2007, 04:37 PM
That couldn't be further from the truth. About half our team is lawyers, all wonderful people.

Your posts are infinitely better than mine or anyone elses.

Why thank you Geek. I agree. :rofl:

Now I don't even have to say "Kiss my Grits," which would be sure to annoy you even further.

SwimStud
February 9th, 2007, 04:40 PM
and an allegedly female betta fish.

If it's a Betta Splendens and has a long fins and beautiful colour...then it's a guy. If it just looks like a small fish...it's a girl.

I would go into the differences of the sexes further but we might end up witha locked thread ...
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I agree let's drop it move on. the jokers will try to avoid the serious threads but we will have our funny threads too. That seems fair.

scyfreestyler
February 9th, 2007, 04:42 PM
Thanks. Looking forward to next year when I age up, just in time for nationals in Austin. Not that 50-54 is that much slower.

By the way, you should be able to spot me easily. Apparently I float.

Hmm? Sounds like a diet too high in fat.

swimr4life
February 9th, 2007, 04:50 PM
I just have to wonder if, perhaps, the intervals aren't tough enough when Fortress's teammates have the time (and breath) to discuss women's bodies, pms, cute lifeguards, etc. during practice. Usually it's all I can do not to hurl my latte into the gutter. My training partner and I communicate via grunts and gestures between repeats.

Hey Gull...Don't mess with my twin sister. That's not a very nice thing to say. Based on her times, I'd have to say she is working quite hard. You are sinking below the belt with that one.

swimr4life
February 9th, 2007, 04:53 PM
Good thing I'm thick skinned. But I believe Cruise would say this is why so many female posters abandoned the forum during the prior flame wars.

Very true...I left for a while and still have some of the old flamers on my ignore list!

knelson
February 9th, 2007, 04:58 PM
Just one last thing from me on this topic. I'm a member of a skiing forum that isn't moderated. Basically anything goes there. Just about any suggestion of censorship there is met with a very loud Bronx cheer :) Anyway, it's a very tight knit community even though it's a much more active forum than this is. People are always getting together to ski, help one another out, etc.

Anyway, a serious tragedy befell two members of the forum this week. They were a husband and wife who both posted. Well, the wife commited suicide a few days ago and the husband posted to the group to tell everyone. There was a huge outpouring of support for this guy. Someone suggested setting up a fund to help him cover funeral expenses and whatever else he needed the money for. This started yesterday. As of a couple hours ago over $5,000 has been sent to the Paypal account he set up for this.

Obviously this would have never happened if the topic never drifted off the topic of skiing.

newmastersswimmer
February 9th, 2007, 05:02 PM
We've all said our peace (not ******) on this. Maybe it's time to move on. posted by Geek

I NEVER posted that on a public forum (nor would I ever post that)....its the last part of a PRIVATE MESSAGE that I sent to gull and was never intended to be posted out here by me. I noticed that he only posted that last comment and left out all the other parts like a typical coward that he is.

And as far as the calves thing went......Rich said he would post his calves to shame me for not having as big a calves as he does....it was a continuation on a theme that started when we both posted pictures of our biceps to see who had the bigger arms....I'm sorry Matt (or anyone else)....I fail to see any part of that being sexual in any way??? Somebody please explain it to me if it is??

Newmastersswimmer

scyfreestyler
February 9th, 2007, 05:02 PM
Just one last thing from me on this topic. I'm a member of a skiing forum that isn't moderated. Basically anything goes there. Just about any suggestion of censorship there is met with a very loud Bronx cheer :) Anyway, it's a very tight knit community even though it's a much more active forum than this is. People are always getting together to ski, help one another out, etc.

Anyway, a serious tragedy befell two members of the forum this week. They were a husband and wife who both posted. Well, the wife commited suicide a few days ago and the husband posted to the group to tell everyone. There was a huge outpouring of support for this guy. Someone suggested setting up a fund to help him cover funeral expenses and whatever else he needed the money for. This started yesterday. As of a couple hours ago over $5,000 has been sent to the Paypal account he set up for this.

Obviously this would have never happened if the topic never drifted off the topic of skiing.


That is a sad story but I am glad people are supporting him. I am all in favor of creating an Off Topic Forum here for things NSR but not AO/NR either.

swimr4life
February 9th, 2007, 05:06 PM
Just one last thing from me on this topic. I'm a member of a skiing forum that isn't moderated. Basically anything goes there. Just about any suggestion of censorship there is met with a very loud Bronx cheer :) Anyway, it's a very tight knit community even though it's a much more active forum than this is. People are always getting together to ski, help one another out, etc.

Anyway, a serious tragedy befell two members of the forum this week. They were a husband and wife who both posted. Well, the wife commited suicide a few days ago and the husband posted to the group to tell everyone. There was a huge outpouring of support for this guy. Someone suggested setting up a fund to help him cover funeral expenses and whatever else he needed the money for. This started yesterday. As of a couple hours ago over $5,000 has been sent to the Paypal account he set up for this.

Obviously this would have never happened if the topic never drifted off the topic of skiing.

I agree and I'm so glad you brought up this great example. I think of Masters swimming as being about a lot more than just swimming. It is about camraderie and support too. I think this forum allows us to talk about swimming and how it influences our lives. It also allows us to get to know each other and become friends.....friends that have this wonderful sport in common but also are interested in each others lives. So what if we get off topic every once and a while. As long as we are civil and kind to each other, where is the harm? :dunno:

scyfreestyler
February 9th, 2007, 05:06 PM
We've all said our peace (not ******) on this. Maybe it's time to move on. posted by Geek

I NEVER posted that on a public forum (nor would I ever post that)....its the last part of a PRIVATE MESSAGE that I sent to gull and was never intended to be posted out here by me. I noticed that he only posted that last comment and left out all the other parts like a typical coward that he is.

And as far as the calves thing went......Rich said he would post his calves to shame me for not having as big a calves as he does....it was a continuation on a theme that started when we both posted pictures of our biceps to see who had the bigger arms....I'm sorry Matt (or anyone else)....I fail to see any part of that being sexual in any way??? Somebody please explain it to me it it is??

Newmastersswimmer

Not sexual in any way at all. Juvenile is more like it. I don't know, maybe that is what is irking people around here as opposed to the alleged "sexual" nature of the conversation. But then again, maybe it's both.

newmastersswimmer
February 9th, 2007, 05:11 PM
Not sexual in any way at all. Juvenile is more like it. I don't know, maybe that is what is irking people around here as opposed to the alleged "sexual" nature of the conversation. But then again, maybe it's both.

posted by SCY Freestyler

Why is that any more Juvenile than talking about flipping someone off?....It was just a little friendly ribbing between me an Rich....The other posters all seem to think it was funny? I don't recall anyone complaining about those postings where we posted pictures of our biceps (mine was an obvious fake....so was the calves pic...it was just an innocent little joke thats all....why is that so juvenile?....did anyone who read those posts think it was too juvenile??)


Newmastersswimmer

p.s. Sorry to hear about what happened on that skiing thread Kirk....Hopefully no one will commit suicide or anything like that over hear because of a little disagreement or a rude PM?

LindsayNB
February 9th, 2007, 05:15 PM
I agree let's drop it move on. the jokers will try to avoid the serious threads but we will have our funny threads too. That seems fair.

This seems like a really good solution. :applaud:

swimr4life
February 9th, 2007, 05:16 PM
Life is WAAAY too short to be serious all the time. I thought everything posted lately was hillarious. IMO I think a "lighten up" is in order. Don't shoot the messenger.

some_girl
February 9th, 2007, 05:16 PM
I do find the banter at least as appealing as the swim stuff, even though sometimes I skip it. It makes posters more than words on a page.

scyfreestyler
February 9th, 2007, 05:17 PM
Look Jim, I can only tell you that I have found much of the commentary on here to be improper as of late. Especially considering the intended purpose of this forum. Obviously my opinion is shared with very few people on here and that is fine, I have no problem with that. If my opinion had few opponents I would have to question whether or not it was really my own. But since we are dealing with something that is purely opinion based I see no point in carrying on the discussion. There are no right or wrong answers and I am sure that you are just as head strong as I...neither one of us is going to change our minds about the issues being discussed.

Carry on.

newmastersswimmer
February 9th, 2007, 05:17 PM
This seems like a really good solution. posted by lindsay

Fine by me I guess....At least we never strayed from the original thread topic this time...thats a positive right?

Newmastersswimmer

Its all cool Matt....I still like you and all.

poolraat
February 9th, 2007, 05:19 PM
Life is WAAAY too short to be serious all the time. I thought everything posted lately was hillarious. IMO I think a "lighten up" is in order. Don't shoot the messenger.

I agree Beth. Humor is the best way to help forget, if only temporarily, the tragedies of life.

I think my signature says it all.

swimr4life
February 9th, 2007, 05:20 PM
I do find the banter at least as appealing as the swim stuff, even though sometimes I skip it. It makes posters more than words on a page.

Agreed and well said.

swimr4life
February 9th, 2007, 05:26 PM
I agree Beth. Humor is the best way to help forget, if only temporarily, the tragedies of life.

I think my signature says it all.

I LOVE YOUR SIGNATURE!! Beee-u-ti-ful!

Speaking of becoming friends and showing interest in each ohter's lives.... How is your daughter doing?

poolraat
February 9th, 2007, 05:28 PM
I LOVE YOUR SIGNATURE!! Beee-u-ti-ful!

Speaking of becoming friends and showing interest in each ohter's lives.... How is your daughter doing?

They're doing great. Last biopsy showed no cancer. Thanks for asking.

newmastersswimmer
February 9th, 2007, 05:32 PM
They're doing great. Last biopsy showed no cancer. Thanks for asking.
posted by poolrat

Thanks for sharing that poolrat. I am so glad to hear the good news!

The Fortress
February 9th, 2007, 05:55 PM
it's a very tight knit community even though it's a much more active forum than this is.

This kind of describes my team. People have known each other for many years, which perhaps accounts for some joshing among some of them. They're long time pals. I'm still a newbie, but I like them. I'm glad you have such great ski friends, Kirk.

I would hate to be just "words on a page" too some_girl. Plus, then I wouldn't know you or my twin or my baby sister or the other folks I know who are not anonymous to me.

I won't say "lighten up" because I got super-blasted last time I did that (and my twin already said it :) ), although it's what I think. As long as nothing is over the top or dramatically off topic, a little levity is fabulous. We don't need to be zinged or Mindful every waking moment. As my twin said, life is WAAAAY to short. Plus, there are tons of serious posts.

I think the publication of PMs on the forum is just wrong.

SwimStud
February 9th, 2007, 06:07 PM
This seems like a really good solution. :applaud:

Thanks Lindsay. As a point of what I meant by resisting the comedy urge on serious threads. I held back posting some humour on your Front Crawl vids, as I though it would hinder your objective in posting. Never fear it was not going to be malicious, I was going to post and ask how you mananged to swim in slow motion like that ;) I then changed mind out of respect. That doesn't mean you're off the hook for good though :D

The Fortress
February 9th, 2007, 06:08 PM
You are a massive hypocrite Geek ....and I really don't care if the moderators suspend me for saying that in public here. I also think your buddy Gull is a bag of hot air for attacking fortress the way he did. Newmastersswimmer

I think this is perfectly clear, but there was no flirting by me on the Geek vs. Gull II thread. I thought the picture was inspiring. I really thought they both looked happy and fit and "good looking" (although Gull has since staked claim to this latter appellation). If that is "flirting," I guess I'm not very good at it. Is this what we need to ban?

As to scyfreestyler's comment that the forum has gone to hell the last few months, maybe it would be improved if Geek actually posted more on the "meat" of swimming instead of pork rinds and NASCAR.;)

SwimStud
February 9th, 2007, 06:13 PM
I think this is perfectly clear, but there was no flirting by me on the Geek vs. Gull II thread. I thought the picture was inspiring. I really thought they both looked happy and fit and "good looking" (although Gull has since staked claim to this latter appellation). If that is "flirting," I guess I'm not very good at it. Is this what we need to ban?

As to scyfreestyler's comment that the forum has gone to hell the last few months, maybe it would be improved if Geek actually posted more on the "meat" of swimming instead of pork rinds and NASCAR.;)

The meat of swimming sounds a bit risque too in a certain light...and may also offend a vegetarian.

poolraat
February 9th, 2007, 06:26 PM
The meat of swimming sounds a bit rique too in a certain light...and may also offend a vegatarian.

You know what the Indian word for vegetarian is?


"Lousy Hunter."

SwimStud
February 9th, 2007, 06:28 PM
You know what the Indian word for vegetarian is?


"Lousy Hunter."

LOL I know a few like that haha

BillS
February 9th, 2007, 06:33 PM
I, too, have grown tired of all the senseless banter, juvenile chit-chat, and general nonsense here. I find that most of what appears to be intended as humor is not even mildly amusing. In the limited time I have to spend on the forum, it's gotten too hard to sift through all the crap to find posts germane to the thread. I cut way back on my reading and participation beginning about a month ago as a result.

I am fundamentally opposed to censorship (allowing people to express themselves certainly helps one identify the twits), and I don't want to see any posts censored here. I would like to see NSR stuff posted in a clearly identified NSR post, and replies to swimming threads be on-topic. That doesn't necessarily mean humorless.

The Fortress
February 9th, 2007, 07:01 PM
I, too, have grown tired of all the senseless banter, juvenile chit-chat, and general nonsense here.

I, too, have grown tired of senseless, juvenile name-calling. So maybe you should stop.

I don't have all that much trouble reading over what you call "crap" from "twits." It's called skim reading or use the scroll down feature. There are plenty of serious meaty posts to select from. And I believe Rich labeled his last thread the "unashamed inanity" thread. Pretty easy to avoid. Now, if the mere site of NSR or or purple prose or a :dedhorse: or :banana: sends you screaming, you must be a boring lawyer. ;)

BTW, I like your signature. Very NSR.

Caped Crusader
February 9th, 2007, 07:22 PM
I just have to wonder if, perhaps, the intervals aren't tough enough when Fortress's teammates have the time (and breath) to discuss women's bodies, pms, cute lifeguards, etc. during practice. Usually it's all I can do not to hurl my latte into the gutter. My training partner and I communicate via grunts and gestures between repeats.

I don't know what Fortress did to deserve this. I've read her posts. She jokes some. But I have seen her offer many, many helpful tips and give encouragement to many as well. I have also seen her ask questions and thank others for advice.

I looked. She seems to be currently ranked #1 in the nation in several events. So I guess her team must not be too shabby.

Most athletes and people tend to engage in some good natured banter.

Peter Cruise
February 9th, 2007, 07:27 PM
I would like to personally appeal to all of my friends on all sides of this discussion to move on, consider it all said and give up the opportunity to have the very last word. Please.

SwimStud
February 9th, 2007, 07:28 PM
give up the opportunity to have the very last word. Please.

...you first... :D

Caped Crusader
February 9th, 2007, 07:28 PM
Geek, what is it about? Really because someone said bra? Or because they spoke back and argued with you?

I think Rich is right. Geek needs a new target. So he picked Fortress because she speaks her mind and is not intimidated by him or others. He also picked some new posters who like to joke around. I don't think anyone needs to be scared of a bra or the odd funny post. As for "swingers"? C'mon. I doubt that applies to anyone here. I think we should all "celebrate the differences." I can't remember where that was said, but it seems spot on.

Caped Crusader
February 9th, 2007, 07:30 PM
I would like to personally appeal to all of my friends on all sides of this discussion to move on, consider it all said and give up the opportunity to have the very last word. Please.

Well, I just started reading and I missed my first word.

scyfreestyler
February 9th, 2007, 07:34 PM
I think Rich is right. Geek needs a new target. So he picked Fortress because she speaks her mind and is not intimidated by him or others. He also picked some new posters who like to joke around. I don't think anyone needs to be scared of a bra or the odd funny post. As for "swingers"? C'mon. I doubt that applies to anyone here. I think we should all "celebrate the differences." I can't remember where that was said, but it seems spot on.


Hey, you never know. :eek:


















In all seriousness, that was said toungue in cheek.

SwimStud
February 9th, 2007, 07:35 PM
Hey, you never know. :eek:



I already asked. MrsStud said "No!"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

aquageek
February 9th, 2007, 08:35 PM
I think the publication of PMs on the forum is just wrong.

I kinda think calling someone a piece of **** is a bit more wrong along with the coward comment, but that is what this forum has turned to. If you don't want something like that publicized best to not say it at all.

In other news I just witnessed a nice swim by the moderator's nephew (I think,maybe) at a meet here in Charlotte. Only 10 hours of meets left this weekend.

The Fortress
February 9th, 2007, 08:51 PM
I kinda think calling someone a piece of **** is a bit more wrong along with the coward comment, but that is what this forum has turned to. If you don't want something like that publicized best to not say it at all.

PMs are intended to be private. That's why they are so labeled. They are a place to conduct disagreements so as not to contaminate the forum with undue or obscene or extremely cantakerous squabbling (or just to engage in NSR chat to avoid undue hijacking). If privacy isn't respected, it's a problem. As well, there are many ways to call someone a piece of ****, as you know, without explicitly saying so.

As to what "this forum has turned to," it is my understanding that flame wars and mass suspensions were the norm in the past. I would imagine that many posters prefer humor to personal attacks. Why not start a meaty thread on the wonders of youth swim meets or what a tough gig it is to be a USS coach (it is)? Or else I'll think you're "kissing up" to the moderators, a practice you profess to abhor.

On a happier note, I don't have any swim meets or other races to go to this weekend. So I will attend all my masters practices with or without Gull.

scyfreestyler
February 9th, 2007, 10:29 PM
When somebody refers to me using profanity, my respect for them is gone as well as the privacy of said conversation. That's just a personal policy I have though...others might have differing opinions.

There are so many other ways to express anger with somebody..you know?

The Fortress
February 9th, 2007, 10:51 PM
When somebody refers to me using profanity, my respect for them is gone as well as the privacy of said conversation. That's just a personal policy I have though...others might have differing opinions.

There are so many other ways to express anger with somebody..you know?

I do know. I agree with respect to the dislike of being called nasty names. No one wants to be referred to with profanity or other obvious insults, if possible. But, as I said, there are other equally effective ways to diss people that may be no less offensive. A four letter label is still just a label. (Some people swear like troopers in private; others don't.) The gift of gab and intellect allows for much for sophisticated or intellectual dissing that may go well beyond simple sarcasm. You know?

Same for posting. Some people like humorous postings; others like attack posting. Maybe some like both? We should respect everyone's preference and co-exist, since none of us are supreme dictators. Yet.

PMs should still be kept private IMHO only. That's what they're for. (I haven't publicized some of the unbelievably nasty ones I received during a certain thread when I first joined the forum. They didn't use **** or other profanity (I don't think), but they might as well have. OMG, they were hateful in the extreme. No tongue in cheek.) Hateful is no different than profanity to me.

But I don't see how name calling in PMs vitiates the privacy of PMs. If everyone publicized PMs, what would happen to the forum then? It would be a lot more objectionable than simple Wonder Woman talk. Plus, if PMs routinely became public, people would stop PM-ing and then there might be worse threads.

I know you're resisting that inane thread, but trying to tempt you ... :eek: I know, you're just worried you'll be Supergirl like Jim Clemmons ... ;) Toungue in cheek. Maybe more pictures of your super cute daughter would help. I would submit some, but you're way more tech saavy than me and a much better photographer. That colour was unbelievable on those shots. Off topic, I know, but compliments are a nice relief. (Not kissing up Geek. :thhbbb: ) It's just a fact that those photos were good.

LindsayNB
February 9th, 2007, 10:54 PM
A point about not posting enough on meaty topics: I think it is legitimate to want to read swimming related topics. I post some but I prefer to read because I learn more that way. I'm happy to skip over threads I'm not interested in. I guess I see off-topic posts in a thread as sort of equivalent to joining an ongoing conversation and changing the topic.

Leslie, I'm curious, did you take Gull's post as an attack on you? I didn't read it that way at all and have been surprised at the reaction.

The Fortress
February 9th, 2007, 11:04 PM
Leslie, I'm curious, did you take Gull's post as an attack on you? I didn't read it that way at all and have been surprised at the reaction.

I like to read too. Frankly, I still think I have a whole lot to learn, so I do a lot of reading and questioning. I can actually be Mindful, even though I don't like initial caps.

To respond directly to your comment, honestly, I guess I was surprised at the seeming vitriole directed at me (and many others) by Geek/Gull. I wasn't sure what I had done to spark it. Not that I haven't fired off my share of zings or acerbic comments, of course, and won't spar back ...

I can only guess that Gull was just genuinely offended. That was not my intention at all. But my teammates are very nice. Personality? Yes, but nice. Some of them have just known each other for years and they don't see much value in being overly polite. Others are very decorous. We run the full spectrum. It's difficult to capture the dynamic precisely.

As to the attacks on the joksters and new posters (which I guess I qualify for too sometimes), I don't want people driven from the forum, which might happen. A simple goal. And I'm just not all that opposed to humor and sarcasm, as long as there aren't overly personal attacks.

I still remember that Gull had the absolutely audacity to kiss me on another thread. He probably regrets that now. But I don't. He seems like a really good doc and swimmer.

LindsayNB
February 9th, 2007, 11:30 PM
It's possible I missed a post on another thread, because I can't keep up with this board anymore, but I was referring to Gull's comment on this thread about the intervals being too long, which I didn't think was an attack at all, just kind of dry, and even self-deprecating. I certainly take him at his word that he didn't mean it as an attack. (post #40)

Now the Geek is a whole other story! :eek:
Sometimes I can't tell whether he is being provocative-humorous or provocative-mean or just plain stirring the pot. But he seems to me have mellowed out a lot from when I first joined. Of course I have too. And we haven't discussed transexuals lately :D

Personally I don't see private messages as a license to be any less civil than in public, just as a way to avoid taking a thread off topic or taking up board space with something that is only of interest to one person. I have found it to be a good policy not to say anything in email or private message that I wouldn't be ok with the whole world seeing. I don't think that keeping "abuse" private is a good idea in almost any context.

SwimStud
February 9th, 2007, 11:40 PM
Personally I don't see private messages as a license to be any less civil than in public, just as a way to avoid taking a thread off topic or taking up board space with something that is only of interest to one person. I have found it to be a good policy not to say anything in email or private message that I wouldn't be ok with the whole world seeing. I don't think that keeping "abuse" private is a good idea in almost any context.

Lindsay I don't have a beef with you. I'm not sure that PM should be made public though.
In this very thread and others we are told to take it to PM or "get a room" because people don't want to see it. I think that goes for more animated discussion too.
I try not to fling poo because someone flings it back and in the end we all just end up stinking. I try not to upset people but of course you cannot please everyone all of the time either. I'll be anyone's friend if given the chance.
As for keeping things ordered, which I know you like, I think a few more "back on topic" comments in a thread that's getting a little diverted would go a long way for some on the spot remedial action. Rather that than lying in the culvert of the forum to jump out and attack posters on a clearly labelled light hearted thread. Or even PM the offending party to explain the issue and see if they'll edit themselves. A quiet word in discreet fashion is more likely to work than a confrontation...not that I am a politician by any stretch. Lastly, my comments were not directed at you either Lindsay, just trying to capture the issue and offer some hopefully beneficial analysis.

The Fortress
February 9th, 2007, 11:47 PM
It's possible I missed a post on another thread, because I can't keep up with this board anymore, but I was referring to Gull's comment on this thread about the intervals being too long, which I didn't think was an attack at all, just kind of dry, and even self-deprecating.

Well, I sure wish my team would do longer intervals so I wouldn't have to do all that aerobic lite training by myself. But I'm consigned to my fate as a sprinter. And it ain't so bad ... on the shoulders. ;)

It's probably not a good idea to say anything on the internet that is truly private. And obviously, some "abuse," like child abuse, shouldn't be private. But if I want to converse on an off topic issue of small importance with someone or seek personal advice relating to my own training or even grumble about some post, nothing wrong with keeping a PM private. I'm sure no one wants to read it anyway. There's certainly enough to read here nowadays. I still think private is private.

scyfreestyler
February 10th, 2007, 12:49 AM
I do know. I agree with respect to the dislike of being called nasty names. No one wants to be referred to with profanity or other obvious insults, if possible. But, as I said, there are other equally effective ways to diss people that may be no less offensive. A four letter label is still just a label. (Some people swear like troopers in private; others don't.) The gift of gab and intellect allows for much for sophisticated or intellectual dissing that may go well beyond simple sarcasm. You know?

Same for posting. Some people like humorous postings; others like attack posting. Maybe some like both? We should respect everyone's preference and co-exist, since none of us are supreme dictators. Yet.

PMs should still be kept private IMHO only. That's what they're for. (I haven't publicized some of the unbelievably nasty ones I received during a certain thread when I first joined the forum. They didn't use **** or other profanity (I don't think), but they might as well have. OMG, they were hateful in the extreme. No tongue in cheek.) Hateful is no different than profanity to me.

But I don't see how name calling in PMs vitiates the privacy of PMs. If everyone publicized PMs, what would happen to the forum then? It would be a lot more objectionable than simple Wonder Woman talk. Plus, if PMs routinely became public, people would stop PM-ing and then there might be worse threads.

I know you're resisting that inane thread, but trying to tempt you ... :eek: I know, you're just worried you'll be Supergirl like Jim Clemmons ... ;) Toungue in cheek. Maybe more pictures of your super cute daughter would help. I would submit some, but you're way more tech saavy than me and a much better photographer. That colour was unbelievable on those shots. Off topic, I know, but compliments are a nice relief. (Not kissing up Geek. :thhbbb: ) It's just a fact that those photos were good.

I was not aware that anybody was making such nasty PM's. How unfortunate that is. The last time I had something really nasty to say to somebody on here I did it in a public forum and was banned for a week. I had it coming for sure.

I'll see what I can do about some more photos. Thanks for the compliment. I have been working on improving my skills and equipment lately and in small increments it is starting to show.

Seagurl51
February 10th, 2007, 12:51 AM
This now infamous mention of a bra (if I have the right post) could be considered an on topic swimming post. For some women, large bossoms are a problem and constriction beyond a normal swim suit is required. Perhaps a guy might need a jock strap, it's a legit problem to some. I don't see this as out of line. I wouldn't see a post about tampons out of line either, it's a legit concern to female swimmers. I think we've proven with this thread that swimmers come in all persuasions. A thing of interest to one person, may be found offensive to others, but that doesn't make it any less important or viable....on both sides of the aisle. Socializing to some is just as important as technique.

As for posting private messages, this dips WAY below the belt line IMHO. Those are meant to keep things away from the public eye. When invited to be posted in the public eye it's far to easy to pick and choose what part is posted. The information could be false or taken completely out of context. We simply have no way of knowing and it's not our business to know. If invited to share it's the discretion of the people involved, and it should either all or nothing....perferably nothing.

Personal attacks and things done in mean spirit are just as juvenille as everything else in question. Arguements can be civil without toeing the line.

As for the supposed flirting, I don't think it was ever a problem. Yes it happens, but as far as I understand, the majority of this forum is happily married, has been for a LONG time, with no intention of seeking otherwise. Flirting for many is just another expression of humor.

I love hearing about peoples lives and what their going through, both non-swimming and swimming related. I've mentioned before that I go to college in a small town in Idaho. How many chances do you really think I have to talk about anything with a cardiologist, or a lawyer, or any of the other incredibly admirable professions held by people here, and actually have them pay me any attention? These forums open up incredible opportunities for people, in swimming and beyond. I've learned immeasurable things about swimming technique and training. But I've also learned a great number of life lessons that I can carry into things in my everyday life....which isn't all about swimming.

I know I won't have the last word on this, but I agree it's time to bury this and move on. We've made it this far co-habitating, everyone has a system of skimming. Maybe in future at the top of the post in the bold heading mark "off topic." Then you don't even have to skim the post, you know from the get go. But then if you choose to read it, you can't turn around and complain about the content. You've been warned and you continued to read so take the blame for the waste of those precious seconds of your life.

jim thornton
February 10th, 2007, 12:53 AM
Let me briefly hijack this back in the direction of lofty minded analysis. Recall that when I started this thread, the concept was to decide things by vote. We have voted, and now it has become a long bunch of harrumphing harrangues of the sort you hear out of old men wearing rigs in Pariliament.

I once interviewed researchers at the University of Minnesota Twin Study and learned that two of the most hereditable/genetically determined human personality traits were what might be termed authoritarianism/propriety/religiosity on the one hand, and Bohemianism/free spiritedness/anythinggoes bonvivant-ism on the other.

Obviously, people can fit anywhere along this spectrum, but these are sort of the normal extremes.

It seems to me that whenever you get human groups together, these extremes recognize their kindred spirits as well as their natural antagonists. The former justify their righteousness on the grounds of basic decency; the latter justify their rightness on free thinking, open mindedness, and tolerance to alternative possibilities. It's almost like Absolute vs. Relativistic ethics.

What is striking to me in this debate is that all the women seem to me, at least, to be reasonable. Peter Cruise, too, seems eminently reasonable. And many other of the fellows, as well, especially those whose wit lacks venom seem reasonable.

These groups never get along terribly well because they are trying to prove the moral superiority of their personality: control vs. live and let live; censor vs. let anything fly. If not censor, then try to hound off-topic subjects into other rooms, where I can virtually guarantee anyone here claiming to find such topics such wastes of time are much more likely to view than, say, toe craps and what to do about them.

The most poignant things I've read on these threads lately are 1) Beth's daughter's healthy diagnosis, 2) SeaGurls isolation somewhere out in Oregon/Washington State, where she swims by her self and this is as close as she can find to true team camaraderie, and 3) the twin sisterhood of Beth and Fortess (I am an identical twin myself, so I feel for anyone who wants to have such a wonderful relationship.)

The people who want to control things--and correct me if I am wrong--have all been men, and what they want to control tends to be primarily, when it comes down to it, flirtingesque spice of life conversations.

I went out with my team tonight in Pittsburgh, and granted, a few who would have disagreed with the topics decided not to come, but over the course of the evening we talked about everything from hand dominance and natural freestyle breathing side, to "fluffing", to Happy Endings. Ribald? Certainly. But a lot of people find this stuff amusing, and where really is the harm.

It breaks my heart to think that SeaGurl is out in the boonies of the wild west, surrounded by Aryan Nation Posse Comitatus training camps, swimming by herself, and having no place in the world besides right here where she can catch up on the catch up stroke drill as well as fluffing techniques.

Put me in the Long Live Bohemianism Camp.

scyfreestyler
February 10th, 2007, 12:55 AM
Let me briefly hijack this back in the direction of lofty minded analysis. Recall that when I started this thread, the concept was to decide things by vote. We have voted, and now it has become a long bunch of harrumphing harrangues of the sort you hear out of old men wearing rigs in Pariliament.

I once interviewed researchers at the University of Minnesota Twin Study and learned that two of the most hereditable/genetically determined human personality traits were what might be termed authoritarianism/propriety/religiosity on the one hand, and Bohemianism/free spiritedness/anythinggoes bonvivant-ism on the other.

Obviously, people can fit anywhere along this spectrum, but these are sort of the normal extremes.

It seems to me that whenever you get human groups together, these extremes recognize their kindred spirits as well as their natural antagonists. The former justify their righteousness on the grounds of basic decency; the latter justify their rightness on free thinking, open mindedness, and tolerance to alternative possibilities. It's almost like Absolute vs. Relativistic ethics.

What is striking to me in this debate is that all the women seem to me, at least, to be reasonable. Peter Cruise, too, seems eminently reasonable. And many other of the fellows, as well, especially those whose wit lacks venom seem reasonable.

These groups never get along terribly well because they are trying to prove the moral superiority of their personality: control vs. live and let live; censor vs. let anything fly. If not censor, then try to hound off-topic subjects into other rooms, where I can virtually guarantee anyone here claiming to find such topics such wastes of time are much more likely to view than, say, toe craps and what to do about them.

The most poignant things I've read on these threads lately are 1) Beth's daughter's healthy diagnosis, 2) SeaGurls isolation somewhere out in Oregon/Washington State, where she swims by her self and this is as close as she can find to true team camaraderie, and 3) the twin sisterhood of Beth and Fortess (I am an identical twin myself, so I feel for anyone who wants to have such a wonderful relationship.)

The people who want to control things--and correct me if I am wrong--have all been men, and what they want to control tends to be primarily, when it comes down to it, flirtingesque spice of life conversations.

I went out with my team tonight in Pittsburgh, and granted, a few who would have disagreed with the topics decided not to come, but over the course of the evening we talked about everything from hand dominance and natural freestyle breathing side, to "fluffing", to Happy Endings. Ribald? Certainly. But a lot of people find this stuff amusing, and where really is the harm.

It breaks my heart to think that SeaGurl is out in the boonies of the wild west, surrounded by Aryan Nation Posse Comitatus training camps, swimming by herself, and having no place in the world besides right here where she can catch up on the catch up stroke drill as well as fluffing techniques.

Put me in the Long Live Bohemianism Camp.


Surely my mind is wandering this late in the evening and something entirely appropriate was intended here. ;)

Seagurl51
February 10th, 2007, 01:01 AM
Jim:


That was one of the most well sounded posts defending both sides that I have read in a long time (and I was around a few years ago when this become an issue). It's human nature to fight and try to establish dominance and a swimming forum seems to be no exception.

I gladly join you in the Bohemian group! (I actually just admitted to my mom tonight I was of the hippy pursuasion.) Far Out Man!!!

jim thornton
February 10th, 2007, 01:22 AM
And on this wonderful note, and with the help of our 4600 yard practice, a fine dinner of jerk shrimp and fish fritters, and a 12.5 mg Ambien CR, I am heading off to bedtime, no fluffer in sight, confident that when I wake in the morning, I will hear the ever so faint singing from the far corners of our great nation...

faint, ever so faint, but wait! The words, the words!

I'd like to give the world a coke, and perfect harmony!

And all acrimony will be replaced with a thirst quenching cold beverage, all happy and cheerful now, toasting one another with a myriad Saluds! Until, that is, some gruff and churlish fellow, his lips curled in enmity, says, "Hey, you! Yeah, you! I wanted a Pepsi."

And this is how the end of the world begins.

FlyQueen
February 10th, 2007, 02:53 AM
Wow! I read many posts on here and took them as attacks on my big sister, who if we never discussed anything outside of technique, wouldn't be my big sister.

Some banter and NSR is great, it builds community. I would NEVER want to work in an environment where people walked in, closed their doors or stayed in the their cubes and never interacted. Getting to know your coworkers makes work more enjoyable. Getting to know your teammates makes practice & meets more enjoyable. I love my teammates, I go to practice to get a good workout in and to see them. We banter plenty, and trust me our conversations can be much more inappropriate. Getting to know other posters makes reading these forums more enjoyable and makes me want to go to meets like Nationals all the more.

Does the off topic posting get a bit out of hand from time to time? Probably. If you are all SO concerned about staying on topic & keeping the forums pure, then post topics and make comments about technique. We might want to refrain from injury talk though, because that is personal. And since technique becomes personalized that might as well go, too ...

There are plenty of ontopic posts to read and add to ...

As for the nasty PMs, Fort isn't alone in getting them. I've received a few myself, because like my sis, I stick up for myself and will not just roll over for the "big boys" of the forum.

And for the last time LIGHTEN UP, life is too short to be taken seriously ... this is a swimming forum, swimming is supposed to be FUN! :banana:

As for the flirting, dear me, I'm sure many fingers are pointed at me for that, trust me when I say I am in no way, shape or forum actually flirting with anyone on this forum. It's called a joke, some here may want to research jokes, I hear laughing is a good thing ...

The Fortress
February 10th, 2007, 08:32 AM
What is striking to me in this debate is that all the women seem to me, at least, to be reasonable.

The most poignant things I've read on these threads lately are 1) Beth's daughter's healthy diagnosis, 2) SeaGurls isolation somewhere out in Oregon/Washington State, where she swims by her self and this is as close as she can find to true team camaraderie, and 3) the twin sisterhood of Beth and Fortess (I am an identical twin myself, so I feel for anyone who wants to have such a wonderful relationship.)

The people who want to control things--and correct me if I am wrong--have all been men,

It breaks my heart to think that SeaGurl is out in the boonies of the wild west, surrounded by Aryan Nation Posse Comitatus training camps, swimming by herself, and having no place in the world besides right here where she can catch up on the catch up stroke drill as well as fluffing techniques.



As to that first sentence, I consider this a direct personal attack involving the most insidious sort of stereotyping. :rofl: :rofl:

I have really enjoyed meeting and chatting with my twin, who is like me in so many ways. (With the very notable exception that her right shoulder is sore whereas my left is. But it means we can swim the 50 fly together.) My baby sister too! When we actually meet in person, there will be much :hug: . Thank for you giving Kyra a :hug: hug too. It was kind. No need to eliminate kindness from a forum.

As to the control issue, I have noticed it is usually men who say "OK, time to move on to another topic" now (like Geek did here) and we are all supposed to comply like little lambs. It's happened on many threads. Sometimes, it's probably better to do so as the discussion has petered out and there's nothing constructive or silly left to be said. (This was Peter's point, I believe.) But other times it's just annoying.

No 4600 for me today, Jim. I'm drawing the line at 4,000 max. I'm a real slacker.

LindsayNB
February 10th, 2007, 10:32 AM
Two points:

I draw a distinction between "private and confidential" and "said while no one else was around". If someone privately tells me something confidential I will do my best to keep it confidential. If on the other hand someone calls me nasty names while no one else is around to hear it I don't feel any compunction to treat the fact that they did so as confidential. The idea that because I choose to abuse you via private message does not earn me any right to your silence in my opinion.

I think there are two separate objections to content that are getting mixed up in this thread. One is "these topics should not be allowed to be discussed on this message boards" the other is "serious discussion about swimming should not be drowned out with frivolous off-topic posts". I think the vast majority of people participating on the boards have no problem with the actual content of almost anything that has been posted here, except the personal attacks. I think Rich correctly identified that most people who have an issue are really objecting to people changing the topic of a thread instead of starting a new thread. The point is that threads are a great mechanism for keeping everyone happy. Talk about whatever you want in a thread that is about that topic (within the rules of the board), let the people who want to have "serious" discussions have them uninterrupted. If something in one thread inspires a humorous but off-topic thought, post it in a new thread. I don't think anyone seriously objects to a brief quip or witty comment in a serious thread, it is just a matter of respecting the right of people to carry on a coherent discussion on a particular topic.

Just my :2cents:

The Fortress
February 10th, 2007, 10:57 AM
Two points:

I draw a distinction between "private and confidential" and "said while no one else was around". If someone privately tells me something confidential I will do my best to keep it confidential. If on the other hand someone calls me nasty names while no one else is around to hear it I don't feel any compunction to treat the fact that they did so as confidential. The idea that because I choose to abuse you private message does not earn me any right to your silence in my opinion.

Just my :2cents:

So we should then publicize hateful PMs?

I agree that the hate bomb tosser doesn't earn or deserve the respect of silence. But maybe the rest of the posters here do? Do we want the hatefulness splashed across a serious thread or a new thread dealing with the abuse? How will that help our overworked moderators? I think it's better to respond privately in a non-hateful manner or ignore it completely. PMs should be private. I should clarify that I have only received hateful PMs from two posters in October of last year. I don't think anyone would really have cared to read them. I sure didn't. I'd much rather read a Geek zing interrupting a seemly thread.

Your second paragraph is well stated.

But perhaps the PM debate should be the topic of a separate thread. ;)

SwimStud
February 10th, 2007, 11:08 AM
Two points:
I think Rich correctly identified that most people who have an issue are really objecting to people changing the topic of a thread instead of starting a new thread. The point is that threads are a great mechanism for keeping everyone happy. Talk about whatever you want in a thread that is about that topic (within the rules of the board), let the people who want to have "serious" discussions have them uninterrupted. If something in one thread inspires a humorous but off-topic thought, post it in a new thread. I don't think anyone seriously objects to a brief quip or witty comment in a serious thread, it is just a matter of respecting the right of people to carry on a coherent discussion on a particular topic.

Just my :2cents:

I can admit to doing it a couple of times but I've been cutting back. Serious threads to me would be regarding techniques, asking for analysis or discussion of strategey for races etc. Threads that seem to be socially oriented "Look at me & my buddy at the meet" or "Who's going to nationals?" for example, are going to draw social posters and their comment. There is nothing wrong with that IMHO.

For the record feel free to divert any thread I start with your witty comments or piss-taking of me. It's all good for me. It the social network I grew up with in the pubs of East London and Essex. If you acted like you were the big cheese you get ripped to shreds...cockiness was always tongue in cheek, but the cardinal sin was to take yourself to seriously.

SwimStud
February 10th, 2007, 11:16 AM
...the majority of this forum is happily married...



Yes for at least 2 hours a week!

:rofl: :rofl:

Caped Crusader
February 10th, 2007, 11:50 AM
Yes for at least 2 hours a week!

:rofl: :rofl:

Happily married, but would prefer a little more than 2 hours a week.

SwimStud
February 10th, 2007, 11:51 AM
Happily married, but would prefer a little more than 2 hours a week.

Suggest you avoid sprints and work on improving your stroke :joker:

Caped Crusader
February 10th, 2007, 11:53 AM
because like my sis, I stick up for myself and will not just roll over for the "big boys" of the forum.

Your big sis pointed out that Rob Copeland said you had just as much right to post as other dues paying members of USMS. So if you don't fall into the authoritarian/propriety/religiosity spectrum as the "big boys," who cares? Carry on. You do good work here too.

Caped Crusader
February 10th, 2007, 11:55 AM
Suggest you avoid sprints and work on improving your stroke :joker:

I hate sprints. What kind of workout is that?

As for stroke technique, that seems quite controversial, but there have been some serious discussions on the subject lately. Just not enough for some. Who should start new threads.

FlyQueen
February 10th, 2007, 12:23 PM
Your big sis pointed out that Rob Copeland said you had just as much right to post as other dues paying members of USMS. So if you don't fall into the authoritarian/propriety/religiosity spectrum as the "big boys," who cares? Carry on. You do good work here too.

Thanks Batman, I appreciate that. I'm all for a nice balance of hardwork and FUN! OR in this case serious talk and fun talk ...

gull
February 11th, 2007, 01:44 PM
Jim, I don't see how "cowardly piece of ****" can be taken out of context, but you're more than welcome to post your pm in it's entirety. Unfortunately, I've already deleted my copy. From my perspective, your response was unprovoked and inexcusable.

Leslie, as I posted previously, I most certainly was not attacking you personally. Lindsay understood my intention quite clearly. I am duly impressed with your top ten rankings, of which I obviously have none. Likewise, I am confident that your team's workouts are intense and challenging. Rest assured that I will take you up on your invitation and drop in for a workout if I am in your area (as I have done with Masters teams in Boston, Phoenix, Chicago, and of course Austin). Saturday just wasn't feasible.

Hope to see my forum friends at the Woodlands this summer or in Austin next spring. Happy swimming. I'm out.

Peter Cruise
February 11th, 2007, 01:50 PM
Gull: hoping you're not out for good. I am most likely to make Mt. Hood LCNats, if you make it, I'll buy you a beer.

newmastersswimmer
February 11th, 2007, 03:31 PM
Jim, I don't see how "cowardly piece of ****" can be taken out of context, but you're more than welcome to post your pm in it's entirety. Unfortunately, I've already deleted my copy. From my perspective, your response was unprovoked and inexcusable.

Leslie, as I posted previously, I most certainly was not attacking you personally. Lindsay understood my intention quite clearly. I am duly impressed with your top ten rankings, of which I obviously have none. Likewise, I am confident that your team's workouts are intense and challenging. Rest assured that I will take you up on your invitation and drop in for a workout if I am in your area (as I have done with Masters teams in Boston, Phoenix, Chicago, and of course Austin). Saturday just wasn't feasible.

posted by Gull


So is this an invitation of some sort to solicite my opinion? I understand that you view yourself as being of the highest moral fiber sitting up there atop your soap box of self richeousness with your firends Geek and Lindsay. We all live by our own set of moral codes I suppose and I'm sure that mine doesn't live up to the standards of others. I don't feel any remorse for what I said though. I usually try and refrain from using language that abusive....but then again I will from time to time do it anyway when I deem the situation appropriate....It doesn't really matter to me what other people have to say about it either. I tried to keep it "private" though and it certainly wansn't anything I wouldn't have said directly to your face or anything. I find it hard to understand why you felt the need to publicize it (as morally irreprehensible as you and others might see it). To me that seems to be the equivalent of some sniffling spineless kid running to tattle on someone everytime he gets picked on by the mean playground bullies like me.
Was the reason you publicized it for some higher moral purpose? ...Or was it so that you and others can preach from your high self richeous pulpits? You say that you did not in any way intend to be hurtful or mean in your obviously sarcastic posting towards Fortress.....Here's a poster who has done nothing but say nice things to you and Geek every since she's been here....but then you and the Geek felt the need to blindside her one day and try your best to humiliate her in public (llike you are getting some sick kick out of it)....I found that to be way more morally irreprehensible than sending you that "scathing" PM. If you are such a man of high moral fiber, then why couldn't you have handeled the situation in a more tactful manner? You honestly believe that your posting (and your tag team approach to bullying Fortress like that with Geek) was just friendly jibe....no hurtful intent?? I may be a jerk at times Gull....and certainly I have my flaws....but you are really insulting my intelligence if you expect me to buy into that garbage. I wish I could apologize for what I said....but in this case I really don't believe that is possible.....Here's my advise for the future Gull.....If you deliberately try and bait people the way you and Geek do, then you might get an uncivil response from time to time.....try not to go crying like a baby about it in the future.

Newmastersswimmer

jsmwbnc
February 11th, 2007, 03:41 PM
isn't this a nsr thread?

swimr4life
February 11th, 2007, 03:53 PM
I don't think anyone wins. It just makes people feel bad. If it is one thing I can't stand, it is people being mean for no reason. It's my pet peeve. If you say something mean and blindside someone for no reason, especially if it is a nice person, you can expect a response or retalliation. It's called baiting and I'm really tired of it.:dedhorse:

poolraat
February 11th, 2007, 04:26 PM
I don't think anyone wins. It just makes people feel bad. If it is one thing I can't stand, it is people being mean for no reason. It's my pet peeve. If you say something mean and blindside someone for no reason, especially if it is a nice person, you can expect a response or retalliation. It's called baiting and I'm really tired of it.:dedhorse:


I agree with you and even though I've been ready to make a comment in response to some of the posts on this thread, I've just "bit my tongue" and moved on.

Actually I'm a bit surprised that this thread hasn't been closed.

newmastersswimmer
February 11th, 2007, 04:51 PM
Beth and Kathy,

I know I haven't behaved very well on this thread and it is embarressing to divulge in this junevile fight....I am guilty of my own imperfections. I just think the rules of engagement need to be "fair".....If the guy continues to bait me directly for a response then I suppose I give in to my ugly weakness.....Hopefully we can all still be friends?


Newmastersswimmer

The Fortress
February 11th, 2007, 05:26 PM
Leslie, as I posted previously, I most certainly was not attacking you personally. Lindsay understood my intention quite clearly. I am duly impressed with your top ten rankings, of which I obviously have none. Likewise, I am confident that your team's workouts are intense and challenging. Rest assured that I will take you up on your invitation and drop in for a workout if I am in your area (as I have done with Masters teams in Boston, Phoenix, Chicago, and of course Austin). Saturday just wasn't feasible.

THIS POST ILLUSTRATES WHY PMS SHOULD NOT BE PUBLISHED!

Until Gull posted, this thread was dead and we had all left it alone after FlyQueen's last comment. I feel like this recent comment was just nasty baiting and Gull undoubtedly knew people would respond and not appreciate it. As I said before, to me, there is no difference between profanity (are we scared of that too now?) and hatefulness. Just because the latter is not accompanied by a four letter word, does not make it any less objectionable. I think Geek and Gull are simply used to leading flame wars and decided the time was ripe again. Unfortunately, no one seems overly inclined to be tame lambs. It's really just a shame.

Craig:

I didn't especially think you were targeting only me at the time. But to re-start an argument in a new thread when a prior thread had been closed could be perceived that way. And the tone of this thread in general has been quite attack-mode. I tried to respond to the unnecessarily mean comments in a somewhat restrained manner. (Although I sparred back some, as I usually do. Feistress nature.)

I really hate your post of today though. I said absolutely nothing about any rankings and you are now attempting to make me sound pompous with your "duly impressed" comment. I am far from it, I assure you. In fact, I am infinitely more likely to engage in the kind of self-deprecating humor you use rather than outright bragging. Thus, I am not "duly impressed" with your parting salvo and think less of you now for having made it since it only serves to demean me, unfortunately.

As for the comments about my team, I'm sure our teams both do challenging practices. I was just defending my team. As I explained in an earlier post, some of my teammates are likely too much the joksters for your taste; others are more decorous and respectful. I shouldn't have said anything in the first place.

I don't know what you mean by "I'm out." I hope it's just out of this thread because it would be very, very sad if you stopped posting. Until this thread, I had very much enjoyed all your posts and sparring and general good humor and advice. So I'm hoping it's just the thread that's disgusted you, as it has others. I certainly understand your position about decorum and respect it. Believe me, I will not mention undergarments again. I would just like to be respected in turn.

I appreciate posters efforts to defend myself and others. Outright attacks tend to cause counter-attacks. It is a very mellow poster who can sit by idly and say nothing, even when they know that's the best policy. I include myself in the group that can't. Please don't mention any rankings though. I will refrain from posting any workout times as well. I would really hate to somehow be perceived as elitist. I abhor that. I'm just as interested in learning as the next person and I have many, many things to work on, which is why I started the breaststroke threads in the first place -- that being my most glaring of many deficiencies. And, for the record, I also suck at freestyle and my twin and many others can trounce me in the 100 and 200. We won't even speak of distance where the entire forum makes me look like a wannabe amateur.

swimr4life
February 11th, 2007, 05:38 PM
Beth and Kathy,

I know I haven't behaved very well on this thread and it is embarressing to divulge in this junevile fight....I am guilty of my own imperfections. I just think the rules of engagement need to be "fair".....If the guy continues to bait me directly for a response then I suppose I give in to my ugly weakness.....Hopefully we can all still be friends?


Newmastersswimmer

Hi....that wasn't really directed at you. ;)

I was trying to point out that it is only human nature to defend someone when you feel they have been hurt unnecessarily (spelling?). I have a temper too and, like you, it only comes out "to play" when I feel like I have to defend someone I care about against bullies. I love my twin...don't mess with my sis.

The Fortress
February 11th, 2007, 05:56 PM
I know I haven't behaved very well on this thread and it is embarressing to divulge in this junevile fight....I am guilty of my own imperfections. I just think the rules of engagement need to be "fair".....If the guy continues to bait me directly for a response then I suppose I give in to my ugly weakness.....Hopefully we can all still be friends?

Who knew the subject of NSR humor and SR purity would be such a vast unbreachable gulf? Gull was absolutely baiting you, and it was inappropriate to publish a PM. I refrained from publishing them in the past because other posters are usually not interested in reading about an overly nasty personal disagreement and it is none of their business anyway. Indeed, as Beth and Peter make clear, they'd much rather skip it and stick to swimming and humor.

I don't think anyone blames you for punching back. As Rich said, the poo thrower often gets poo back. Others have said your defense of those attacked is more like Lancelot than any "ugly weakness." I appreciated the defense. I'm sure others did too.

Unfortunately, this whole thread may have a somewhat chilling effect on posters. That is sad. Those who are quieter or who defer to the thought police or are just nonconfrontational -- and should be respected -- may bite their tongues further. Everyone else will be walking on eggshells. But maybe that was what was intended -- to have us walk on eggshells or stop posting. Certainly a conceivable strategy.

If anyone leaves the forum, it would be a loss. There's no reason for it. No reason for me or others to be called slackers or flirts or whatever either. It's ridiculous.


I love you too, twin. :smooch: You have made my time on the forum a joy. I think all FAF Sista's have a bit of temper.

jsmwbnc
February 11th, 2007, 06:07 PM
how about we start a usms dating forum?

The Fortress
February 11th, 2007, 06:12 PM
[quote=aquageek;78030]I kinda think calling someone a piece of **** is a bit more wrong along with the coward comment, but that is what this forum has turned to. [quote]

Well, since the "coward" comment was in a PM, I guess you're in favor of publishing them too? Is this what the forum has turned into? Publishing PMs to use as a swipe/bait in a thread? Perhaps it's accurate to characterize a veiled effort at disguising a personal attack as "cowardly?"

I've said it before, Geek, why don't you start a rousing new thread and we can all go at it on a meaty swimming related topic such as foreign swimmers. Perhaps we can argue with gusto about the topic rather than solely attacking the posters themselves.

Gull should have heeded Peter's advice. He should also take him up on the advice to get a beer.

The Fortress
February 11th, 2007, 06:14 PM
how about we start a usms dating forum?

I'm going to assume this is sarcastic or perhaps an attempt to deter further sniping?

Or is this a snipe itself? it certainly could be perceived that way. Please clarify. My thick skin is getting thinner after today's volley. And I had tried to be nice and neutral and start a thread on breakouts and post on weight lifting ...

SwimStud
February 11th, 2007, 06:26 PM
I'm going to assume this is sarcastic or perhaps an attempt to deter further sniping?

Or is this a snipe itself? it certainly could be perceived that way. You want to join in the personal attacks on alleged forum flirters to? Please clarify.

Hey Fort
:smooch: :hug:
;)

I think he's just being light-hearted. The locked thread was never a dating thread, nor a swingers thread, it was a good thread. I happenend to stumble into it and not knowing Muppet and AvsFan were doing "synchronised swims" (that a humourous way of saying dating in swimmer's world). Then a few comments came out..nothing tawdry, just cute and not to the objection of the opening poster.

In a sport that involes minimal modesty about one's body...it's seems we're up tight about the mention of anatomy in a jovial sense. Nobody was giving it any "Phwoar!" factor. I think we are big enough to know the difference between fun and pick-ups.

Anyhow, what would be wrong if 2 folks met here, sharing a love of water and developed a relationship (we see it with platonic pairs rivalling each other--so what's the difference?). Unless they're "acting it out" for us all what's the biggie? If pick up line are in a thread called "Help with flip turns, then yeah I see your point. Otherwise. Too bad. Scroll down. Next Topic. Whatever.

The Fortress
February 11th, 2007, 06:27 PM
.Here's a poster who has done nothing but say nice things to you and Geek every since she's been here....but then you and the Geek felt the need to blindside her one day and try your best to humiliate her in public. Newmastersswimmer

I really hope this has not been the point of all these posts.

scyfreestyler
February 11th, 2007, 06:29 PM
Leslie, as I posted previously, I most certainly was not attacking you personally. Lindsay understood my intention quite clearly. I am duly impressed with your top ten rankings, of which I obviously have none. Likewise, I am confident that your team's workouts are intense and challenging. Rest assured that I will take you up on your invitation and drop in for a workout if I am in your area (as I have done with Masters teams in Boston, Phoenix, Chicago, and of course Austin). Saturday just wasn't feasible.

Hope to see my forum friends at the Woodlands this summer or in Austin next spring. Happy swimming. I'm out.

This seems very genuine to me. As a matter of fact, it seems to include a compliment on your swimming times. What is all the fuss about Fortress?

And it seems as if you are looking for a fight with jsmwbnc...why? Wow. I thought the weekend would see things cool off around here.

scyfreestyler
February 11th, 2007, 06:31 PM
I really hope this has not been the point of all these posts.

With all due respect, I doubt any members are conpsiring against you. If so, shame on me for this post.

jsmwbnc
February 11th, 2007, 06:33 PM
I'm going to assume this is sarcastic or perhaps an attempt to deter further sniping?

Or is this a snipe itself? it certainly could be perceived that way. Please clarify.

Sorry it wasn't clarified. Since there is no way to express sarcasm online things are easily taken out of context and I think that has a lot to do with this ridiculous thread. I was just trying to get you all to lighten up a bit, this is only an internet forum, everyone should just chill out. Maybe some :drink: would help. I would be all for a NSR forum but that's up to the mods.

The Fortress
February 11th, 2007, 06:36 PM
This seems very genuine to me. As a matter of fact, it seems to include a compliment on your swimming times. What is all the fuss about Fortress?

And it seems as if you are looking for a fight with jsmwbnc...why? Wow. I thought the weekend would see things cool off around here.

I was not trying to make a fuss, Matt. It was Gull who felt compelled to comment today after everything had cooled off.

And I am not picking a fight with jsmwbnc. That's why I asked for a clarification. Is that not permitted either? It's sometimes difficult to know someone's tone, especially a new poster. If he was just joking, then I welcome the humor, believe me. I see he clarified. I'm all for drinking beer and humor too!!!!!!!

I don't think anyone using the words "duly impressed" is intending a compliment. The tone of the post was undoubtedly sarcastic. I don't think I misinterpreted it.

scyfreestyler
February 11th, 2007, 06:38 PM
Well, the way I read it he was trying to make peace with you and included a compliment with his commentary. I could be wrong and I guess we will never know the truth.

jsmwbnc
February 11th, 2007, 06:39 PM
sorry fort, i didn't mean to come off as sarcastic, like i said, context is commonly lost over the internet

The Fortress
February 11th, 2007, 06:40 PM
With all due respect, I doubt any members are conpsiring against you. If so, shame on me for this post.

That's not what Jim said. He said Geek and Gull were trying to publicly humiliate me. I just said I was hoping that was not the case. If you say it isn't, then hopefully it isn't. Others certainly perceive I have been attacked. So I don't think I'm engaging in delusional thinking. I have tried to be moderate in my responses, but, like Jim, I'm kind of sick of it. I'm also sick of people picking on Jim too. I think we should all agree to disagree about the topic of posting and use the NSR designation wherever applicable.

The Fortress
February 11th, 2007, 07:13 PM
Sorry for misinterpreting jsmwnbc. I guess it's that lack of tonal ring thing. At least you're trying to be funny for all our sakes. I've clearly lost my sense of humor.

Caped Crusader
February 11th, 2007, 07:18 PM
Jim, I don't see how "cowardly piece of ****" can be taken out of context, but you're more than welcome to post your pm in it's entirety. Unfortunately, I've already deleted my copy. From my perspective, your response was unprovoked and inexcusable.

Leslie, as I posted previously, I most certainly was not attacking you personally. Lindsay understood my intention quite clearly. I am duly impressed with your top ten rankings, of which I obviously have none. Likewise, I am confident that your team's workouts are intense and challenging. Rest assured that I will take you up on your invitation and drop in for a workout if I am in your area (as I have done with Masters teams in Boston, Phoenix, Chicago, and of course Austin). Saturday just wasn't feasible.

Hope to see my forum friends at the Woodlands this summer or in Austin next spring. Happy swimming. I'm out.

I'm not sure this was a compliment. Hard to tell. It could be dripping with sarcasm. I usually use "duly impressed" when I'm being sarcastic. But the last sentence was funny. Clearly, people are tired of being attacked and are naturally sounding off.

What I'm really ticked about is Rich's wretched balance avatar. I like the constantly changing avatars better. At least I was amused. This is no longer very amusing to anyone.

scyfreestyler
February 11th, 2007, 07:23 PM
Interesting...the word duly is not really one that was intended for sarcasm.

Were I looking to say something sarcastic in this instance I might say something like "your top 10's make me question my own existence", or "your top 10's probably have Natalie Coughlin running for cover". Hey, maybe it was serious and maybe it wasn't. Either way, does it really make much difference?

The Fortress
February 11th, 2007, 07:31 PM
Interesting...the word duly is not really one that was intended for sarcasm.

Were I looking to say something sarcastic in this instance I might say something like "your top 10's make me question my own existence", or "your top 10's probably have Natalie Coughlin running for cover". Hey, maybe it was serious and maybe it wasn't. Either way, does it really make much difference?

Not anymore. We all should have taken Peter's advice.

Everyone's sarcasm is different. Like me, Caped is a lawyer. In a court of law, the word "duly" is used as in "duly noted." It's a curt way to respond to someone or put them in their place.

If I misinterpreted the post, Gull can PM me and I will personally apologize to him.

On a slightly humorous note, since I'm not completely beyond salvaging, I will say that I like Big Boy better than Balance.

born2fly
February 11th, 2007, 07:32 PM
This thread has more drama in it than in a high school. Seems like this is a never ending thread with the participants wanting to get the last word in. Why not settle it the ole fashion way, in the pool. Either that or it might be time for a group hug. In either case wish this thread would end because Im tired of my email getting filled with drama.

newmastersswimmer
February 11th, 2007, 07:34 PM
I apologize to everyone for my part in this....I lost my cool that is for sure...and we all probably regret some of the things that were said here....I will promise to make a real effort to try to be on my best behavior from now on ....I guess this isn't the first time I've allowed myself to get sucked into a juvenile fight here.....Hopefully some of my friends like Matt (and others who may not approve of my behavior) can forgive my actions and we can salvage our friendships somehow. Lets try and get back to being nice to one another (or at least somewhat civil to eachother)...it was a lot more fun when that was happening...(the group hug approach That BorntoFly suggests sounds o.k. to me....)

Thanks for defending me fort, Rich, and Beth (and others) even though I share much of the blame here. You guys are good friends!

Newmastersswimmer

SwimStud
February 11th, 2007, 07:35 PM
This thread has more drama in it than in a high school. Seems like this is a never ending thread with the participants wanting to get the last word in. Why not settle it the ole fashion way, in the pool. Either that or it might be time for a group hug. In either case wish this thread would end because Im tired of my email getting filled with drama.

Greg..Drama is in..it's the Oscars next

:rofl:

It's ironic, that those who decried NSR threads instigate much of this NSR outpouring though. Now if they had just ignored it...

Remember what Granny said: "It'll never go away if you pick it..."

FlyQueen
February 11th, 2007, 07:38 PM
Since we aren't ready to all hold hands and join in a chorus of Kumbaya ... I think we all need to take a deep breath and back the heck off of each other. Tone is very hard to understand on the internet. I very much hope Geek was trying to recognize Fort's amazing swimming abilities and not trying to be rude or sarcastic. Like Ms. Scarlet I'm going to defend her because I think she's awesome. Obviously lots of people here do.

As for the PM issue I think the proper course of action would have been to report the post rather than bring it into the forums. That was unecessary regardelss of whether or not you were offended or thought it was inappropriate.

I think we all want the same thing, to have a place where we can talk about something we are all passionate about with others. When conversation deviates from swimming that should be viewed as a normal part of developing relationships. That's where the bonds form.

Kumbaya my Lord, Kumbaya ... ;)

scyfreestyler
February 11th, 2007, 07:48 PM
I apologize to everyone for my part in this....I lost my cool that is for sure...and we all probably regret some of the things that were said here....I will promise to make a real effort to try to be on my best behavior from now on ....I guess this isn't the first time I've allowed myself to get sucked into a juvenile fight here.....Hopefully some of my friends like Matt (and others who may not approve of my behavior) can forgive my actions and we can salvage our friendships somehow. Lets try and get back to being nice to one another (or at least somewhat civil to eachother)...it was a lot more fun when that was happening...(the group hug approach That BorntoFly suggests sounds o.k. to me....)

Thanks for defending me fort, Rich, and Beth (and others) even though I share much of the blame here. You guys are good friends!

Newmastersswimmer


This thread has certainly brought out a side of many members that I had not previously seen. I carry grudges only rarely and nothing took place here that would warrant such a thing anyhow. Don't get me wrong though, I am not saying this battle of ideas is over just yet...I enjoy a heated debate now and again.

jim thornton
February 11th, 2007, 07:54 PM
FINAL POSTING!!!!

PLEASE DON'T READ ANY FURTHER IF YOU ARE OFFENDED BY GARMENTRY!!!

WHAT IS ABOUT TO COME IS VERY CLOSE TO NSR, WHICH I ASSUME MEANS NON-SWIMMING RELATED; IT IS PERHAPS 1-8 PERCENT SWIMMING RELATED AT BEST, SO----FAIR WARNING; DON'T READ ANOTHER SINGLE SOLITARY SYLLABLE IF YOU THINK YOU MIGHT BE OFFENDED BY GARMENTRY THAT IS ONLY 1-8 PERCENT SWIMMING RELATED.

(ps SORRY TO USE ALL CAPS HERE, WHICH I'VE READ IS THE EQUIVALENT OF SHOUTING!!!!!!!)

Okay, so I doubt anybody in their right mind is reading at this point, but I simply must share a true story that happened at our practices last Wednesday and Friday.

A very attractive female swimmer--let us call her, for the sake of anonymity, Ursula--came over to me after our workout. Ursula was wearing a very pretty though thick brown sweater and blue jeans. She said, "Please don't take this wrong, but I just have to tell someone, and there were no women in the lockerrroom."

She proceeded to explain that she had bought a new swim suit earlier in the day and decided to just wear it under her clothes to practice. I don't fully understand the logistics here, she must have stopped off at home first and dropped some items off and whatnot. But anyhow, after practice, she started to get dressed and she realized she had no underwear.

"I'm not wearing any underwear," she told me.

The feelings this confession provoked in me were definitely NSR, but we won't go into them here.

Anyhow, she said she had to meet a friend at Starbucks and said she hoped her sweater would be enough to prevent any appearance of impropriety. I asked if it was a male or female friend, and she said female, and moreover her friend was chestally gifted. I said that in my opinion, it was no big whoop.

On Friday, our team had decided to go out to a Caribbean restaurant after practice. It was a BYOB place, and so a bunch of the non teetotalers (which I used to be, sadly, am no more) decided to bring really good/exotic beers.

Ursula later confessed to me a Post-It note she had written herself Friday morning so she wouldn't forget.

It read simply: "Bring Delerium and underwear."

(Explanatory note: Delerium Tremens is a brand of beer.)

(At this point, I made an additional comment, referring to a brand of carbohydrate gel Ursula had earlier given me to help prevent hypoglycemic attack mid practice. The product's name, and double entendre overtones, truly do not belong in here, so I shall leave this detail out pending my re-writing of the whole episode, with some poetic license, for resale to the kind of periodical where such anecdotes are a staple.)

Post Script:

On Friday after practice, Ursula got dressed in what I can only assume was a full set of feminine garmentry, seen and unseen. But she said that she had overheard a college swimmer talking on her cell phone in the lockerroom. This young woman was saying, "Thanks a lot. Because of you, I forgot to bring a bra, underwear, and my black shoes."

Evidently, there is a pandemic of this kind of thing happening, and to not discuss it openly will only allow the tragedy to increase.

At this point, please, please, please allow me to have contributed the final posting on a thread I started in the misbegotten hopes of just putting this matter to a vote and end.

SwimStud
February 11th, 2007, 08:04 PM
On Friday after practice, Ursula got dressed in what I can only assume was a full set of feminine garmentry, seen and unseen. But she said that she had overheard a college swimmer talking on her cell phone in the lockerroom. This young woman was saying, "Thanks a lot. Because of you, I forgot to bring a bra, underwear, and my black shoes."



For the record, it was not me on the other end of the phone.

jim thornton
February 11th, 2007, 08:13 PM
I'd let you have the last word, but I found your comment (brevity is the soul of wit) so amusing I just had to say: thanks.

matysekj
February 11th, 2007, 10:56 PM
And with that, I'll now close this thread. Thank you Jim for that contribution to end this on a lighter note.

Please, people, don't make us start closing and deleting every other thread and handing out mass suspensions. I get really cranky when that happens. If you don't like what someone said, DON'T REPLY IN KIND. Just stop and never hit that reply button. If something is really objectionable to you, report it to us and let us take care of it instead of escalating. When you do that, you are risking your own posting privileges.