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View Full Version : Wanna do 100IM Tips gladly accepted please.



SwimStud
February 13th, 2007, 11:45 AM
I'm not too worried about the turning aspects...just a little unsure of what to do at the backstroke to breast turn.

Also any good workouts for this?

I'm doing 900 free for warm up (0-1650 in 6 weeks) then trey to do another 1500 per workout.
I've obviously been hitting breast but want to get some fly and back work in as well as turns--obviously I can always go to the wall and touch then turn but that's inefficient.

Is doing a 100 IM then hitting sets of 50 of fly and back or what? I've ordered a couple of books for reference and they should get here shortly.

Any thoughts or articles?

aquaFeisty
February 13th, 2007, 11:59 AM
You'll probably get tips from people a lot more knowledgeable than me, but here are my favorite sprint IM sets:

8x125 IM rotate the 50 through each stroke (so on the first one do 50 fly-25bk-25br-25fr, 2nd one is 25 fly-50bk-25br-25fr, get it?)

12x75 continuous IM (#1 is fl-bk-br, #2 is fr-fl-bk, #3 is br-fr-fl, #4 is bk-br-fr and then you're back to #1)

Also, when swimming by myself, instead of a freestyle warmup, I like to do either a 400 or 800 reverse IM (start with free) kick-drill by 25.

Good luck!

Warren
February 13th, 2007, 12:02 PM
I dont do a cross over unless you are good at it.

SwimStud
February 13th, 2007, 12:03 PM
You'll probably get tips from people a lot more knowledgeable than me, but here are my favorite sprint IM sets:

8x125 IM rotate the 50 through each stroke (so on the first one do 50 fly-25bk-25br-25fr, 2nd one is 25 fly-50bk-25br-25fr, get it?)

12x75 continuous IM (#1 is fl-bk-br, #2 is fr-fl-bk, #3 is br-fr-fl, #4 is bk-br-fr and then you're back to #1)

Also, when swimming by myself, instead of a freestyle warmup, I like to do either a 400 or 800 reverse IM (start with free) kick-drill by 25.

Good luck!

Thanks Feisty...I take it you don't do these back to back...if so kudos I can't hack that!
A Bones McCoy type quote: "Dammit Jim, I'm just an old breaststroker not a magician!"

The free warm up is my 0-1650 Frontcrawl iin 6 weeks, I'm not bailing on my virtual training partner ~Wren~ on that.

Rich

poolraat
February 13th, 2007, 12:04 PM
Just remember that at the end of each stroke you need to touch as if you're finishing an individual race in that stroke. 2 hand touch for fly and breast and touch while remaining on the back for the backstroke. The back to breast transition is a hard one for me. Takes me so long that one could go to the restroom and be back in time to see me push off on the breast.

As far as training for a 100 I do a couple things. Will do 100's alternating IM and free, or just do sets of 25's in IM order (16 x 25 on :30). Also will do 50's - 25 fly/25back, 25 back/25 breast, 25 breast/25 free and so on.

And since back and breast are the weakest parts of my IM I as I approach a meet where I'm going to swim an IM I try to spend more time working those strokes than I normally do.

Hope this helps.

Warren
February 13th, 2007, 12:07 PM
you can be on your side in back stroke

Caped Crusader
February 13th, 2007, 12:10 PM
Glad to see you diversifying a little here, buddy. Variety is the spice of life. Er, swimming.

SwimStud
February 13th, 2007, 12:11 PM
I dont do a cross over unless you are good at it.

Warren what's that? sorry for dumbass Q's. This is the problem. I never swam age group, HS or college, and you're all foreigners to me. ;) I have no clue what you guys are talking about half the time. PB, SPL, SDK, SCM, SCY, FSII, LCM, FCM, etc etc

poolraat
February 13th, 2007, 12:16 PM
you can be on your side in back stroke

As long as you don't go past vertical before the touch. Otherwise DQ.

Warren
February 13th, 2007, 12:19 PM
Warren what's that? sorry for dumbass Q's. This is the problem. I never swam age group, HS or college, and you're all foreigners to me. ;) I have no clue what you guys are talking about half the time. PB, SPL, SDK, SCM, SCY, FSII, LCM, FCM, etc etc

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WeL_HmMsbWI
thats a cross over turns, its in IM going from back to breast. The rule says you have to touch the wall then flip but not go past verticle which I don't even know what means. I would not sugest it but if your good at it, it is alot faster than a touching and turning around.

BillS
February 13th, 2007, 12:19 PM
poolraat offers good advice . . . just do them. There are lots of opportunities to throw a 100 IM in the middle of a workout. I often do a 200 IM in warmup, and will occasionally do a 100 or 200 IM in the middle of a long set or ladder/pyramid. I'm a beginning flyer (never learned it as a kid), and a crummy backstroker, but it's all getting better, which lets me do more in practice, which makes it all better, which . . . you get the idea.

Overtraining the distances (i.e. swim 50's of each stroke to get ready for the 100) helped me a lot with my confidence, and I have now successfully (read: not DQ'd) 2 100's in competition. As a bonus, they were a whole lot of fun to swim, probably because my weakest strokes were first, and once those were done I was home free.

One caveat: Don't do bad fly. When the stroke falls apart, switch to one arm or something else right away.

If an old dog like me can learn a new trick, anyone can. Give it a shot.

SwimStud
February 13th, 2007, 12:23 PM
poolraat offers good advice . . . just do them. There are lots of opportunities to throw a 100 IM in the middle of a workout. I often do a 200 IM in warmup, and will occasionally do a 100 or 200 IM in the middle of a long set or ladder/pyramid. I'm a beginning flyer (never learned it as a kid), and a crummy backstroker, but it's all getting better, which lets me do more in practice, which makes it all better, which . . . you get the idea.

Overtraining the distances (i.e. swim 50's of each stroke to get ready for the 100) helped me a lot with my confidence, and I have now successfully (read: not DQ'd) 2 100's in competition. As a bonus, they were a whole lot of fun to swim, probably because my weakest strokes were first, and once those were done I was home free.

One caveat: Don't do bad fly. When the stroke falls apart, switch to one arm or something else right away.

If an old dog like me can learn a new trick, anyone can. Give it a shot.

Fly is going to be the hardest part of this in technique.

knelson
February 13th, 2007, 12:25 PM
The rule says you have to touch the wall then flip but not go past verticle which I don't even know what means.

Basically it means you have to be "on your back" (i.e., not past the vertical onto your breast) until your hand touches the wall. You can pretty much do what you want from that point until your feet leave the wall at which point you must again be on your back.

BillS
February 13th, 2007, 12:33 PM
Fly is going to be the hardest part of this in technique.

It certainly was (and is) for me. I started with fins, but pretty quickly I discovered that I didn't like what it did to the rhythm. I like to use a pull buoy now and then, especially to warm up. It keeps my hips up nice and high, my head low, and the drive going forward.

Good luck.

Red60
February 13th, 2007, 12:36 PM
". . . at the end of each stroke you need to touch as if you're finishing an individual race in that stroke. 2 hand touch for fly and breast and touch while remaining on the back for the backstroke."

I recently saw a high school meet (first one in years, as I am returning to the sport) and observed, to my amazement, IMers going from backstroke to a rollover one stroke out from the wall; that is, they rotated onto their fronts and flipped as if in freestyle, then came off the wall with a breastroke pull. Nobody got DQ'ed. Did I dream this, or what? Has something changed?

I too am beginning to train for a 100 IM, mostly because it's fun. I have discovered that I have absolutely no rhythm for speed in breaststroke. Relatively fast fly and free, back not so great, but holy cow, I can't get under 45 in a 50 in breaststroke. I think I remember doing it about ten seconds faster when I was 12.

So my secondary question is: how on earth do you get speed in breastroke?

knelson
February 13th, 2007, 12:41 PM
Did I dream this, or what?

Probably not. Rules are sometimes different for HS swimming.

dorothyrde
February 13th, 2007, 12:45 PM
". . . at the end of each stroke you need to touch as if you're finishing an individual race in that stroke. 2 hand touch for fly and breast and touch while remaining on the back for the backstroke."

I recently saw a high school meet (first one in years, as I am returning to the sport) and observed, to my amazement, IMers going from backstroke to a rollover one stroke out from the wall; that is, they rotated onto their fronts and flipped as if in freestyle, then came off the wall with a breastroke pull. Nobody got DQ'ed. Did I dream this, or what? Has something changed?

I too am beginning to train for a 100 IM, mostly because it's fun. I have discovered that I have absolutely no rhythm for speed in breaststroke. Relatively fast fly and free, back not so great, but holy cow, I can't get under 45 in a 50 in breaststroke. I think I remember doing it about ten seconds faster when I was 12.

So my secondary question is: how on earth do you get speed in breastroke?
High School rules allow this here in Illinois. I have seen boys forget and do this in club championships and get DQ's.

As far as being on your side in back, be very careful, it is easy to go past vertical. I too did not swim age group, hs, or college, and learned at 39. I do the simple touch on my back and turn and do breast. Slow, but works for this old gal. Since fly will be touch, really try to keep it long, and not push it hard so you have something left for the rest of it.

SwimStud
February 13th, 2007, 12:46 PM
So my secondary question is: how on earth do you get speed in breastroke?

Leg power and streamline. Get your arms out in front fast, tuck your head down and finish your kick. I try to get the arms out before the thrust of the kick.
http://www.breaststroke.info/ is a better reference than I.

The Fortress
February 13th, 2007, 01:00 PM
12x75 continuous IM (#1 is fl-bk-br, #2 is fr-fl-bk, #3 is br-fr-fl, #4 is bk-br-fr and then you're back to #1)


This is one of my favorite sets too. You can also go fly-fly-fly, fly-fly-back, fly-back-back, back-back-back, etc.

I do sets of 8-12 x 100 IMs too, alternating drill-swim or kick-drill-swim.

You can also do 8 x 50, two of each stroke. Or 8 x 50 alternating kick-stroke or drill-stroke.

You can also try 8 x 150. Odds reverse IM, 50 choice kick or easy. Evens regular 100 IM, 50 choice kick or easy. Don't forget reverse IMs.

Doing lots of 25s as Poolraat suggested is also good. Mix it up; lot of serial swimming.

Work on the turns and streamlines.

SwimStud
February 13th, 2007, 01:10 PM
This is one of my favorite sets too. You can also go fly-fly-fly, fly-fly-back, fly-back-back, back-back-back, etc.

I do sets of 8-12 x 100 IMs too, alternating drill-swim or kick-drill-swim.

You can also do 8 x 50, two of each stroke. Or 8 x 50 alternating kick-stroke or drill-stroke.

You can also try 8 x 150. Odds reverse IM, 50 choice kick or easy. Evens regular 100 IM, 50 choice kick or easy. Don't forget reverse IMs.

Doing lots of 25s as Poolraat suggested is also good. Mix it up; lot of serial swimming.

Work on the turns and streamlines.

What interval you think, 3:00? Until I get it going a bit?

Allen Stark
February 13th, 2007, 01:23 PM
While that rollover turn is fast,I wouldn't recommend it for the average Masters swimmer,especially if you have a good breaststroke.If you mess it up you will be DQd or at least mess up your breaststroke pushoff/pullout(where you ought to start catching up with the non-breaststrokers.) I'd recommend an open turn,as you come into the wall on backstroke roll on your side toward the touching arm and then when you touch,turn just like in breaststroke except you touch with one hand.

tjburk
February 13th, 2007, 01:45 PM
There's a good video clip out there of Phelps a the Olympics that shows the turn very clear.

When you reach for the wall on backstroke you can now be on your side as long as you have not rotated past the vertical to where your stomach is facing down. When you push off from the wall to the breaststroke you have to be past the vertical with your stomach facing towards the bottom of the pool, correct breaststroke form must be attained before the first stroke.

Paul Smith
February 13th, 2007, 01:58 PM
The 100IM sums up all that defines masters swimming....its the essence of what we are about.....IMHO!

IM no matter what distance is and should be considered the "5th Stroke" and needs to be trained for to excel......still if your focus is on the 100 its a springt but one that I still approach with a "build" mentality...ie the start and each lap is inititated with a strong underwater and breakout but the first 2-3 strokes are used to get the feel/rhythm going and an attack on the wall.

I like any set that ties in turns...the transitions are what usually win/lose this event.

Of....and by the way....with one big a.s dolfin kick on the "token" breastroke lap I can get about 12-13 yards out of the way and get back to the "real" stroke...freestyle baby! :groovy:

SwimStud
February 13th, 2007, 02:03 PM
The 100IM sums up all that defines masters swimming....its the essence of what we are about.....IMHO!

IM no matter what distance is and should be considered the "5th Stroke" and needs to be trained for to excel......still if your focus is on the 100 its a springt but one that I still approach with a "build" mentality...ie the start and each lap is inititated with a strong underwater and breakout but the first 2-3 strokes are used to get the feel/rhythm going and an attack on the wall.

I like any set that ties in turns...the transitions are what usually win/lose this event.

Of....and by the way....with one big a.s dolfin kick on the "token" breastroke lap I can get about 12-13 yards out of the way and get back to the "real" stroke...freestyle baby! :groovy:
Paul thanks for kicking in on this thread. Are you dissing my beloved Breast again?

I'm warning all you frontcrawlers...that's the stroke I'm attacking next... ;)

Kidding aside I have the mentality too that a swimmer can/should swim all strokes even if badly--injuries and other such factors aside. I can't qutie yet...but that's the point.

chlorini
February 13th, 2007, 02:11 PM
One tip that works well for me is to do the fly lap with only 1 or even no breaths. You have plenty of time to breathe during backstroke, the dive already shortens the fly length, and if it's not your best stroke, it's probably the breathing that is making it hard! Also, keep in mind that having a great breaststroke is really helpful in IMs of all distances since if you are ahead after breaststroke, you get to start swimming freestyle and building your lead while everyone else is still doing breast. So work it all, but dig really deep for your strong stroke, and you'll have a great race!

As for training, everyone has given you great sets. Do all the strokes in every practice. Do IM sets. And enjoy the variety! Good luck!

aquaFeisty
February 13th, 2007, 02:16 PM
I should have mentioned that I do LOVE the 100 IM! It is such a fun event... even though I'm really not that quick at it...

Here's another good set for working on your IM turns:

2-turn 50's

Start at the middle of the pool and finish in the middle of the pool (thus doing 2 turns per 50. I do these the same way as the continuous IM set... start with 1/2 lap fly, 1 lap back, 1/2 lap breast. Then 1/2 lap free, 1 lap fly, etc. For the free to fly transition, I just do an open turn then work the streamline and underwater kick. The beauty of the 100 IM is that fly is first, and it's only 1 length, so with a good start and kick, you can avoid swimming much of the length!!

We use this set for all freestyle at taper time, too. When you're inside the flags, you sprint... when you're outside the flags, it is SLOW and easy...

Note: I use 'lap' and 'length' interchangeably. Sorry for the confusion.

Paul Smith
February 13th, 2007, 02:38 PM
Big Boy.....I look at the breastroke leg of the IM the same as the running leg of a triathalon....something thrown in to appease those "special interest" athletes!

Best bumper stick as of late: "people that can't do sports run...people that can't run, run farther" :D

SwimStud
February 13th, 2007, 02:39 PM
Big Boy.....I look at the breastroke leg of the IM the same as the running leg of a triathalon....something thrown in to appease those "special interest" athletes!

Best bumper stick as of late: "people that can't do sports run...people that can't run, run farther" :D


LMAO I'll just sit back and wait for this one to erupt!

FlyQueen
February 13th, 2007, 03:17 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WeL_HmMsbWI
thats a cross over turns, its in IM going from back to breast. The rule says you have to touch the wall then flip but not go past verticle which I don't even know what means. I would not sugest it but if your good at it, it is alot faster than a touching and turning around.

You can be slightly on your side, but not to 90 degrees. Meaning you still need to be mostly on your back. If you rotate completely onto your side you will be dq'd. I suggest a simple back to breast open turn for now. Touch on your back!!!!! I flip but I wouldn't recommend it unless A- you are already good at flip turns, B-you can do a back flip in the middle of the pool, and C - you have great lung capacity because it take good lung capacity.

Go out hard on fly and back, you'll be fine on breast and keep your head down and go like a bat out of hell on the free. I have a pitiful 100IM because my breaststroke eats up a 1/3 of my time ... maybe more ... :dunno:

All the sets mentioned are great. Make sure you do 25s from the middle of the pool focusing on the turns, too. GOOD LUCK! :D

FlyQueen
February 13th, 2007, 03:20 PM
Big Boy.....I look at the breastroke leg of the IM the same as the running leg of a triathalon....something thrown in to appease those "special interest" athletes!

Best bumper stick as of late: "people that can't do sports run...people that can't run, run farther" :D

Paul I totally agree ... the breaststroke leg is just for those extra special swimmers so they stop whinning ... absolute worst part of an IM ... such an icky stroke ... oh well ...


Fiesty, I suck at the 100 IM. Are you doing at any upcoming meets? Maybe I can try and keep up, I'm sure you are much faster than me. I usually am ahead after the first 25, then don't really gain anything on back, get creamed on breast and attempt to catch everyone on free. I had a very interesting meet at Lattof this weekend, kept getting put in the fastest head with all the superstars in lane 1 ... *sigh*

The Fortress
February 13th, 2007, 03:30 PM
Also, keep in mind that having a great breaststroke is really helpful in IMs of all distances since if you are ahead after breaststroke, you get to start swimming freestyle and building your lead while everyone else is still doing breast.

Breaststroke is just a means to get to freestyle in the IM. Nothing more. It is a pure inconvenience that we IMers try to overcome by doing what Paul Smith suggests and staying underwater as long as possible. Besides, if you take the first 50 out really fast, my own strategy, no slo mo breaststroker can catch you in a length. :lolup:

As to running, it doesn't seem all that different that swimming to me. Both are worthy endurance sports, Mr. Smith. But I do agree that people who can't swim, swim farther. Good point. ;)

newmastersswimmer
February 13th, 2007, 03:30 PM
I say get as much of an underwater pullout as humanly possible on the back to breast turn.....It doesn't really matter exactly how you do the turn IMO (as long as its legal).....the important thing is to make sure you ge enough air sucked into your lungs going into the underwater pullout....If you can make it more than half way down the pool underwater, then you only have to fake your way through about 10-12 yards of actual breasstroke before you go into freestyle......This is why I am ONLY doing 100 IMS from now on (as opposed to 200 IMS and 400 IMS where there's no way around the breaststroke at all!!).

Newmastersswimmer

p.s. According to FlyQueen's recent posting here, you can't completely "roll over" onto your side when doing a back to breast turn without getting DQ'd....So I guess Rich will be waiting a LONG time then for FlyQueen...LOL!:thhbbb: :rofl: :rofl:

ande
February 13th, 2007, 03:45 PM
the 100 IM is a sprint, you need to dive in and get after it

fast turns

improve your weakest stroke
for normal people that's breastroke

if you can SDK fast, do it

save a little on the front end to bring it home

don't breath on free from the flags in

train for it by doing 25's, 50's 75's and 100's

race,
lift weights get strong

don't read books (unless it's the one I wrote)
don't roll over
bring out your inner animal

ande



I'm not too worried about the turning aspects...just a little unsure of what to do at the backstroke to breast turn.

Also any good workouts for this?

I'm doing 900 free for warm up (0-1650 in 6 weeks) then trey to do another 1500 per workout.
I've obviously been hitting breast but want to get some fly and back work in as well as turns--obviously I can always go to the wall and touch then turn but that's inefficient.

Is doing a 100 IM then hitting sets of 50 of fly and back or what? I've ordered a couple of books for reference and they should get here shortly.

Any thoughts or articles?

SwimStud
February 13th, 2007, 03:56 PM
don't read books (unless it's the one I wrote)
don't roll over
bring out your inner animal

ande

you forgot:

don't mess with Texas!

Thanks Ande. I have to work mostly on fly the others I'll muscle OKAY. turns will be the trick to winning I know. I have time ahead of Zones to do this

Peter Cruise
February 13th, 2007, 04:07 PM
Whoa Ande! Normal people's weakest stroke will be breastroke? I resemble that remark! BTW, here's a picture of me doing breastroke...

Paul Smith
February 13th, 2007, 04:07 PM
OK Fort....how about this:

"Those that can't swim dive....those that can't dive swim breastroke"? :joker:

Truth be told....I'm a little touchy about the 100IM as its th only event I've never beaten my nemesis at! If he was a real man he'd swim the 200IM now that he's aged up this year!

Men 40-44 100 Yard IM
================================================== =============================
40-44 NATL: * 52.59 5/18/2003 JOHN SMITH
Name Age Team Finals
================================================== =============================
1 Smith, John C 42 RMM 53.23
24.09 53.23
2 Smith, Paul L 44 RMM 53.38
25.12 53.38

SwimStud
February 13th, 2007, 04:11 PM
p.s. According to FlyQueen's recent posting here, you can't completely "roll over" onto your side when doing a back to breast turn without getting DQ'd....So I guess Rich will be waiting a LONG time then for FlyQueen...LOL!:thhbbb: :rofl: :rofl:

New bet: Loser rolls. I'm in queenie...are you?

Peter Cruise
February 13th, 2007, 04:12 PM
Paul- obviously the pain in your knee has twisted your mind. Perhaps if you took your head out of the sand, you would beat John at this race. Here is a snap of you just before that race, to illustrate...

Redbird Alum
February 13th, 2007, 04:19 PM
save a little on the front end to bring it home


I have to agree with Ande on this... I'm not a great breastroker either and for years I thought just kill the fly and back and the rest will have to do...

Later (older and wiser) in life I have learned that all four strokes need to be worked, and you can't be successfull in the 100 or 200 if you ignore the second half.

Executed technique (as good as you have regardless of stroke) is essential between the walls. You need control and strength for all four, so you have to balance your swim.

aquaFeisty
February 13th, 2007, 04:19 PM
Actually, Paul, I remember the announcer (was it Mark Gill?) at SCY Nats last spring making some caustic remark about "and now Paul Smith is attempting to swim breaststroke in lane 4" during your IM. Can't remember if it was a 100 or 200. It was pretty funny for us mere mortals to hear, after watching you annihilate records all weekend. Of course, your time was awesome. :)

Rich, I agree with all these non-breaststrokers about IM strategy (with the exception of Ande's comment implying that you're not normal if breast isn't your worst stroke in the IM). Take it out as hard as possible. Try to stay as close as possible to everyone on the first two laps. Then pray that your strong stroke will help you survive the evil 3rd lap (in any 100, the 3rd lap is the most evil... with the exception of the 100 fly which just gets worse with each lap).

SwimStud
February 13th, 2007, 04:22 PM
Actually, Paul, I remember the announcer (was it Mark Gill?) at SCY Nats last spring making some caustic remark about "and now Paul Smith is attempting to swim breaststroke in lane 4" during your IM. Can't remember if it was a 100 or 200. It was pretty funny for us mere mortals to hear, after watching you annihilate records all weekend. Of course, your time was awesome. :)

Rich, I agree with all these non-breaststrokers about IM strategy (with the exception of Ande's comment implying that you're not normal if breast isn't your worst stroke in the IM). Take it out as hard as possible. Try to stay as close as possible to everyone on the first two laps. Then pray that your strong stroke will help you survive the evil 3rd lap (in any 100, the 3rd lap is the most evil... with the exception of the 100 fly which just gets worse with each lap).

I am going to shock people! No I mean it..I'm bringing a taser! LMAO.

Paul Smith
February 13th, 2007, 04:25 PM
Peter.....you must have taken that photo at that meet.....when I was actually at my fighting weight!

Being serious for just a minute...so as not to take fire from the Geek...all the workouts/sets are fine....but sprints take race pace practice and none more so then the 100IM....with 3 different turns to be prepared for the loss of tenths adds up quickly...get on the blocks and do race pace work and swim the event at several meets prior to a nationals if you can.

SwimStud
February 13th, 2007, 04:33 PM
Peter.....you must have taken that photo at that meet.....when I was actually at my fighting weight!

Being serious for just a minute...so as not to take fire from the Geek...all the workouts/sets are fine....but sprints take race pace practice and none more so then the 100IM....with 3 different turns to be prepared for the loss of tenths adds up quickly...get on the blocks and do race pace work and swim the event at several meets prior to a nationals if you can.

Nationals...you flatter me sir. I will have 1 maybe 2 meets before Zones. I do seem to do marginally better in real races.

My workout week swill stack thus:
Mon. Breast Drills Focus
Wed. IM Focus Fly, Back and Turns. Free
Fri. Breast Event Focus. Sprints of all.

TheGoodSmith
February 13th, 2007, 04:41 PM
Evil One,

I swam the 200 IM very recently if you will remember. It was Long Course meters and it sucked ! I have no interest in doing that again, and if you remember, I almost didn't get on the blocks the day I did swim it.

The 100IM is NOT a build race by any means. It is 4 nuclear war head blast 25s put end-on-end. There is no time to think......no time for strategy and perfect stroke technique. You are either in the race after fly or you are out of the race.... period. Rule 1.).... you MUST be in the lead after backstroke ! Note, the beauty of the 100IM is that breastrokers don't have as much time to catch up given the actual number of strokes taken after the pull out.... and note, breastrokers CAN be beaten on pull-outs by non breastrokers.

Rule 2.) The secret to a great 100 IM is ......... The Fly-to-Back turn. You have to nail it! Stay super tight.... put one foot over the other foot when bringing your legs up under your body to create less drag.....drop down on your side deep and quick..... push off rotating on your back with super strong and fast underwater dolphins to crush your 7 foot sasquatch opponents in the lane next to you. I enjoy coming up ahead after this turn. It is one of the few satsifying things left in my life...... (unless I'm swimming next to Jeff Commings when my race strategy is to move over and surf him like Hawaii 5-O).

Think "controlled bizerk". Never lose the lead and swim it like 4 X 25s... not a 100.


John Smith

The Fortress
February 13th, 2007, 04:42 PM
OK Fort....how about this:

"Those that can't swim dive....those that can't dive swim breastroke"? :joker:

Truth be told....I'm a little touchy about the 100IM as its th only event I've never beaten my nemesis at! If he was a real man he'd swim the 200IM now that he's aged up this year!

Men 40-44 100 Yard IM
================================================== =============================
40-44 NATL: * 52.59 5/18/2003 JOHN SMITH
Name Age Team Finals
================================================== =============================
1 Smith, John C 42 RMM 53.23
24.09 53.23
2 Smith, Paul L 44 RMM 53.38
25.12 53.38

Big improvement! Especially since I used to dive and switched to swimming.

Peter -- that doesn't look like Paul. I think Paul is a bit taller, has better technique and bigger paws than that. Please, do not attempt to pass yourself off as Paul. That's very uncivil.

Hey, it looks like EvilSmith is using my strategy in the 100 IM (except I'm much slower of course). Hmmm.... Were you SDK-ing enough on that length of backstroke Paul? We know John wasn't gaining on you in breaststroke ...

I have to respectfully disagree that one can't be successful at a 100 IM without being good at breast. Look at the two Smiths -- both alleged non-breaststrokers. It's backstroke in the 100, baby. Doesn't mean we're ignoring "the second half." Just trying to muscle through the offensive part of the second half.

The Fortress
February 13th, 2007, 04:46 PM
Evil One,

I swam the 200 IM very recently if you will remember. It was Long Course meters and it sucked ! I have no interest in doing that again, and if you remember, I almost didn't get on the blocks the day I did swim it.

The 100IM is NOT a build race by any means. It is 4 nuclear war head blast 25s put end-on-end. There is no time to think......no time for strategy and perfect stroke technique. You are either in the race after fly or you are out of the race.... period. Rule 1.).... you MUST be in the lead after backstroke ! Note, the beauty of the 100IM is that breastrokers don't have as much time to catch up given the actual number of strokes taken after the pull out.... and note, breastrokers CAN be beaten on pull-outs by non breastrokers.

Rule 2.) The secret to a great 100 IM is ......... The Fly-to-Back turn. You have to nail it! Stay super tight.... put one foot over the other foot when bringing your legs up under your body to create less drag.....drop down on your side deep and quick..... push off rotating on your back with super strong and fast underwater dolphins to crush your 7 foot sasquatch opponents in the lane next to you.

Think "controlled bizerk". Never lose the lead and swim it like 4 X 25s... not a 100.


John Smith

Couldn't agree more. If you're not in the lead after backstroke, it's all over but the cryin.' John: You forgot the caffeine part ... as long as we're discussing un-Mindful bizerk races.

But I think I might need to work on my fly/back turn some more after reading that.

Paul Smith
February 13th, 2007, 04:50 PM
Fort.....if I had 3 more inches I would have blown by him...he died so bad with his "nuclear" attack the first 40 yards that it was like a dead fish getting pulled in from the swamp on a string.....my mistake for not attacking on the first lap!

Oh and by the way JS.....what has all that "controlled bizerk" training done for your shoulders the last year?!

Redbird Alum
February 13th, 2007, 04:51 PM
I have to respectfully disagree that one can't be successful at a 100 IM without being good at breast. Look at the two Smiths -- both alleged non-breaststrokers. Doesn't mean we're ignoring "the second half." Just trying to muscle through the offensive part of the second half.

Fortress -

Not suggesting someone has to be good... I am most certainly not.
Just saying you need to have good technique to keep the breast moving forward as efficiently and quickly as possible. Sometimes burning everything up in the fly and back leaves one too exhausted to pay attention to their weaker stroke.

The Fortress
February 13th, 2007, 04:53 PM
Fort.....if I had 3 more inches I would have blown by him...he died so bad with his "nuclear" attack the first 40 yards that it was like a dead fish getting pulled in from the swamp on a string.....my mistake for not attacking on the first lap!

Oh and by the way JS.....what has all that "controlled bizerk" training done for your shoulders the last year?!

Height is no excuse, Mr. Smith. My nemesis is 6 feet and I'm a mere 5'4". No laying around the first 50. When the knees are all better, I'm sure you'll be formidable than usual, if that's possible.

Maybe it's not that race pace training, but that lope in the stroke for EvilSmith that's caused the shoulder woes? Aren't all such injuries due to poor technique? ;) I doubt it's caused by excessive breaststroke.

Redbird:

Of course you are right. I was just sort of joshing with you. Although this is why I have heretofore as a master avoided the 200 IM. Tough to get too chewed up on a 100 IM.

Paul Smith
February 13th, 2007, 04:54 PM
Jeff Commings is going to LOVE this discussion!

Oh Jeff.....where are you hiding?

Redbird.....right on brother!

TheGoodSmith
February 13th, 2007, 05:49 PM
Evil One,

No one cares about your missed "3 inches". You'll have to explain that to Mrs. Smith.

As for my shoulders....... I swam 2 lengths of backstroke Sunday for the first time in 2 months. No pain. Today I'll do 3.

Fortress...... get your "good" and "evil" smiths straightened out.


John Smith

FlyQueen
February 13th, 2007, 05:55 PM
New bet: Loser rolls. I'm in queenie...are you?

Rich I am offended and will be reporting you to the mods ...


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

newmastersswimmer
February 13th, 2007, 05:58 PM
Note, the beauty of the 100IM is that breastrokers don't have as much time to catch up given the actual number of strokes taken after the pull out.... and note, breastrokers CAN be beaten on pull-outs by non breastrokers. posted by Evil/GoodSmith

This was the exact point I was trying to make as well. You can almost fake your way through about 10 yards of actual breaststroke if you get a long enough underwater pullout on the back to breast turn. I never could do a good decent tight in out turn between back and breast though....I always lose time on that one......I like the nuclear attack 4 x 25 mentality though.....It may be my imagination, but I don't seem to die as much in a 100 IM all out sprint compared to say a 100 free all out sprint?....Maybe its because changing strokes each 25 means you are working different muscle groups each 25 and so you feel a little fresher going into the last 25 of a 100 IM than a 100 Free (when both are all out sprints)....just a thought?

Newmastersswimmer

TheGoodSmith
February 13th, 2007, 05:59 PM
Paul,

.....and for cripes sakes get rid of that photo of you doing breastroke. It's disrespectful toward breastrokers. It's like taking a photo of me in a church.


John

SwimStud
February 13th, 2007, 06:01 PM
Rich I am offended and will be reporting you to the mods ...


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
New strategy...let FlyQueen win...and roll over myself...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

SwimStud
February 13th, 2007, 06:02 PM
Note, the beauty of the 100IM is that breastrokers don't have as much time to catch up given the actual number of strokes taken after the pull out.... and note, breastrokers CAN be beaten on pull-outs by non breastrokers. posted by Evil/GoodSmith

This was the exact point I was trying to make as well. You can almost fake your way through about 10 yards of actual breaststroke if you get a long enough underwater pullout on the back to breast turn. I never could do a good decent tight in out turn between back and breast though....I always lose time on that one......I like the nuclear attack 4 x 25 mentality though.....It may be my imagination, but I don't seem to die as much in a 100 IM all out sprint compared to say a 100 free all out sprint?....Maybe its because changing strokes each 25 means you are working different muscle groups each 25 and so you feel a little fresher going into the last 25 of a 100 IM than a 100 Free (when both are all out sprints)....just a thought?

Newmastersswimmer

You get a nap on 25 of back, of course you're rested!

What sort of interval should I set up for this whatever my time is plus 20 then work it down?

FlyQueen
February 13th, 2007, 06:04 PM
I'm sure a line was crossed ... but I think it was so long ago that I can't see it anymore ... Just keep in mind I am NOT a backstroker ... ;)




As for the 100IM ... I will try it again and work on that pullout. I'm hoping to have to only swim 15 yards of actual breaststroke, or less ...

The Fortress
February 13th, 2007, 06:05 PM
Paul,

.....and for cripes sakes get rid of that photo of you doing breastroke. It's disrespectful toward breastrokers. It's like taking a photo of me in a church. John

At least not everyone on the forum is walking on eggshells.

SwimStud
February 13th, 2007, 06:08 PM
You know, you start a thread for helpful advice....now I'm going to have to sift through all this inanity to get to the meat of my IM...

...you don't see me doing this to your threads!!!


:joker: :joker: :joker: :joker: :joker:

FlyQueen
February 13th, 2007, 06:12 PM
Kumbaya ...

scyfreestyler
February 13th, 2007, 06:15 PM
IM with Kaitlin Sandeno and Erik Vendt...a DVD by GoSwim.TV.

I am not an IM'er so I use it for tuning my breast and free but I suspect you could benefit from it's intended purpose, IM's.

swimr4life
February 13th, 2007, 06:20 PM
My FAVORITE set is 9x50's #1 Fly, Bk #2 Bk, Br #3 Br, Fr
Repeat 3x through. This way you get the stroke work and the IM turns.

Another fun set is 125's IM Alternate 100 Im with the 50 of your best stroke on the odds/50 of your worst stroke on the evens.

Example: My best stroke is free and my worst is breast.
I would do 25 Fly,25 Bk,25 Br, 50 fr for the odd numbered (#1, 3, 5....)

I would do 25 Fly, 25 Bk, 50 br and 25 fr on the even numbered swims (#2, 4, 6, ....)

The good old standby that is fun everytime is 12x25's IM order on :30. Work your finishes of each stroke.

I LOVE 100 IM!!

Jeff Commings
February 13th, 2007, 07:05 PM
Where was I when this discussion exploded today?

OK, here are my thoughts/musings on the 100 IM:

1) It is the main reason I started competing in masters.

2) You must have a good breaststroke to win. Even though the Smiths are correct in saying that the race is four 25s instead of a 100, that third 25 in the 100 IM is, like the third 25 in any 100 race, the most important.
The Smiths have been two of my vanquished nemeses in this event, and it was a joy to race them. Not having the inhumanly fast dolphin kicks of all my competitors, I hope and pray that their oxygen debt will kick in just when they surface from the breaststroke pullout. Most times I am behind after backstroke because of my inability to dolphin kick, but I am amazed how easy it is to pass by them all on breast, even those who actually do breaststroke races.

3) John Smith says the key to a good 100 IM is the fly-back turn. Nope. It's the back-breast turn. Those of us lucky enough to know how to do the rollover turn gain 1.5 seconds on those who do anything else. And since we know how to do it, we've trained our lungs for the six seconds underwater after more than 25 seconds of fast swimming. Even when racing people who know how to do the rollover turn, speed is key, as well as touching the wall at the right moment. If you have to glide on your side, the judge will probably disqualify you because you might not have stopped your rotation and you'll slow down.

4) You will NOT get disqualified on the back-breast turn if the hand used to touch the wall stays behind your head. If you cross it over in front of your face, it's an instant DQ. No way to salvage it.

5) I'm going to give away my weakness: my freestyle is the worst part of my IM, and not because I'm worn out. I'm just bad at it after doing three other strokes. Training to improve your worst part of the IM does not only involve doing lots of IM in workout, but training your worst stroke. If you hate breaststroke but want to win the 100 IM at a meet, TRAIN BREASTSTROKE!

6) Paul, the picture of you doing breaststroke is classic. It should be studied and analyzed. It easy to see how much you have to force your body to make those motions. (Waiting for the inflexible ankles joke)

Paul Smith
February 13th, 2007, 07:11 PM
Jeff.....have you been napping all day....missing the fun of getting JS all riled up!

I had to post that photo...for a couple of hours...to prove that I do indeed take 1 or 2 strokes on that one lap of the 100IM!

Time for a photo change....can you name these 3 lovely ladies?

The Fortress
February 13th, 2007, 08:16 PM
2) You must have a good breaststroke to win.

3) John Smith says the key to a good 100 IM is the fly-back turn. Nope. It's the back-breast turn. Those of us lucky enough to know how to do the rollover turn gain 1.5 seconds on those who do anything else. And since we know how to do it, we've trained our lungs for the six seconds underwater after more than 25 seconds of fast swimming.

#2 To win what exactly? Nationals? :rofl: I guess I agree with that. But I did win the 100 IM at my last meet and I suck at breast (even though I have very flexible ankles).

#3 This is very true. I wish I could do the rollover. Haven't really practiced it because I think I need the oxygen. The only person I've seen do it really well about my age is Karlyn and she is, well, Karlyn. Maybe I'll try a few in practice. Just don't want to get DQ'd outta the box trying it at Zones. Thankfully, Karlyn isn't crashing our meet again this year. At least I don't think so ....

runner girl
February 13th, 2007, 09:06 PM
Another workout thought is to do every 4th lap (the last 25 of the 100, should I say length?) stroke, going in IM order during those really long warmups you are doing. Since your goal of working up to a 1650 doesn't really help a 100 IM, you might as well get some stroke practice out of it.

The Fortress
February 13th, 2007, 10:27 PM
Another workout thought is to do every 4th lap (the last 25 of the 100, should I say length?) stroke, going in IM order during those really long warmups you are doing. Since your goal of working up to a 1650 doesn't really help a 100 IM, you might as well get some stroke practice out of it.

This is a good point, Rich. I know you are doing the 1650 "crawl" (a word which make my skin crawl) as part of your cyber training, but it has nothing to do with the 100 IM. Better to do the long warmup that AquaFeisty suggested. Too many goals = mush. Ande and others say you need to be somewhat event focused during a given season, especially with Colonies Zones only two months away, which is still a lot of time. At least that's my current theory. (FYI, I think the 100 IM is right before the 200 breast. If you do both, seed yourself very slow in the 100 IM and fast in the 200 breast to give yourself more rest and stay in the warm down pool in between events. Then you get a big rest before the 50 breast later that day. No comments on sandbagging please. This is sensible.)

As for that 100 IM interval you were asking about, I'm not sure. 3:00 sounds a little generous knowing some of your times. Do a time trial, report back and then we can suggest appropriate training intervals. You may want to have a harder interval this month and get more rest as Zones draws closer.

I'm so proud of you, SwimStud, for trying such a great event. See, everyone here loves it, even those who profess not to be good at it. It's just plain fun.

SwimStud
February 13th, 2007, 10:56 PM
Are you guys underestimating me? :p

Goal 1a Swim 1650 Frontcrawl. I do this easy pace. It's just a warm up. If it becomes too much I can halt it.
Goal 1b Get better at Fly
Goal 1c Incorporate into a decent execution of the IM100

Goal 2 Improve BreastStroke

Mon I do my Wayne McCauley based workout.
Wed will be the frontcrawl and Fly/IM work.
Fri will be Crawl and 200 event training as per Bowman modified 3.

My goals for Zones are the 3 BR events hopefully some relays and the 100 IM--to participate in it. I'llknow more tomorrow after my workout with Fly/IM...weather permitting.

I'm kind of bummed we can't relay at zone with forum gang. Maybewe need an informal beer n pizza relay challenge??

poolraat
February 13th, 2007, 11:47 PM
As for that 100 IM interval you were asking about, I'm not sure. 3:00 sounds a little generous knowing some of your times. Do a time trial, report back and then we can suggest appropriate training intervals. You may want to have a harder interval this month and get more rest as Zones draws closer.


I agree with this although at first 3:00 might be needed. I've been known to do this interval but usually when doing IM's at 90-95% of race pace. Generally I go on 2:00 when I'm alternating with free (oops, crawl).

knelson
February 14th, 2007, 12:15 AM
4) You will NOT get disqualified on the back-breast turn if the hand used to touch the wall stays behind your head. If you cross it over in front of your face, it's an instant DQ. No way to salvage it.

I need to see a good video of this. The Michael Phelps one earlier in the thread confused me a little. So is the basic idea to touch with your hand w/o crossing over then flipping the legs directly over head, so it's effectively just a back somersault, or is their some kind of twist in there somewhere?

some_girl
February 14th, 2007, 06:31 PM
(in any 100, the 3rd lap is the most evil... with the exception of the 100 fly which just gets worse with each lap).

I think you misspelled "better." In the 100 fly, the third lap means you are back to a fifty: the best race EVAR.

aquaFeisty
February 14th, 2007, 07:45 PM
I think you misspelled "better." In the 100 fly, the third lap means you are back to a fifty: the best race EVAR.

Heehee... every other 100 I've ever swum in my life: by the time I take that third turn, I think "Woohoo! A 25 sprint!" In the 100 fly, I took that third turn, started taking strokes, and thought, "Dear God, where is the wall???"

The Fortress
February 14th, 2007, 09:12 PM
Heehee... every other 100 I've ever swum in my life: by the time I take that third turn, I think "Woohoo! A 25 sprint!" In the 100 fly, I took that third turn, started taking strokes, and thought, "Dear God, where is the wall???"

And I thought, "Oh crap, don't let me get DQ'd."

I've only done one 100 fly. I have a little mental block about doing another after that though .... No resorting to butterfrog after all. ;)

runner girl
February 14th, 2007, 09:55 PM
20 years ago I would have said, "what's the big deal with a 200fly?" I did that and the 400 IM in almost every college swim meet. Now I think a 50 is too long. They should have a 25 fly in masters!:rofl:

The Fortress
February 14th, 2007, 10:15 PM
20 years ago I would have said, "what's the big deal with a 200fly?" I did that and the 400 IM in almost every college swim meet. Now I think a 50 is too long. They should have a 25 fly in masters!:rofl:

Yep, that's what happens with age. Hey, I swam the 25 fly last fall. It wasn't "official" though. But quite, quite fun.

Some_girl, that last post really cracked me up. Just don't be loafing that first 50 or the second one won't add up to the best 100 evar.;)

FlyQueen
February 14th, 2007, 11:39 PM
Fort whose side are you on?

Somegirl, glide that first 50, nice and easy, really, really slow ... then swim the second 50 even slower! That's good advice!! ;) :D

some_girl
February 14th, 2007, 11:52 PM
Fort whose side are you on?

Somegirl, glide that first 50, nice and easy, really, really slow ... then swim the second 50 even slower! That's good advice!! ;) :D

Oh, no! Someone leaked my strategy for the the 200!

(Or, maybe if you glided like I did . . .)

chlorini
February 15th, 2007, 01:08 PM
#2 To win what exactly? Nationals? :rofl: I guess I agree with that. But I did win the 100 IM at my last meet and I suck at breast (even though I have very flexible ankles)

Hi Fortress,

I can't speak for Jeff, but when I was saying earlier that it is helpful to have a good breaststroke, what I really should have said I suppose is that it is helpful to be ahead after breaststroke because then you get to do start doing freestyle while everyone else is still doing breast. Since you are such an amazing fly/backer, maybe you can build such a lead that the breaststrokers can't catch you and you still get this advantage. And, as was wisely pointed out, it makes a bigger difference in the 200 and 400 IM.

I also wanted to say that I originally pointed out that having a good breaststroke is helpful not to discourage the many of you who don't like it but to encourage Rich since he started the discussion and is a good breaststroker.

SwimStud
February 15th, 2007, 01:16 PM
I also wanted to say that I originally pointed out that having a good breaststroke is helpful not to discourage the many of you who don't like it but to encourage Rich since he started the discussion and is a good breaststroker.

I'm encouraged. Tonight I do my time test for IM and work on the IM. Here's my plan for after 900 of Front Crawl 200, 100x4, 50 x4, 25x4.

4x25 SDK
2x100IM for time
8 x 125 IM
4x25 FLY+dives
4x25 BA+turns
Turns/breakouts
200 FC


The 125's will be with 50 focus moving along.
Starting with 3:00 int and may lower it if I am OK.
Unchartered territory. Wohoo.

poolraat
February 15th, 2007, 01:31 PM
SwimStud
Here's a workout that I do occassionally. It's out of a workout book by
Doug Garcia, coach of the WSU masters. I've modified it a bit. Also, I don't use a board for the kicking or a buoy for the pulling.

Build a 100IM
Doug Garcia, WSU Masters

Warm-up 200 free
100 kick
100 pull
Main set 2 x 100 Kick no board
1 x 200 free
4 x 50 fly 1:30
2 x 100 free 1:45
#2 pull
4 x 50 back 1:30
300 free
4 x 50 breast 1:30
2 x 100 free 1:45
#2 pull
1 x 50 free easy
4 x 100 IM 1:35/2:30
150 free easy
Cool down 100 choice easy

SwimStud
February 15th, 2007, 01:36 PM
SwimStud
Here's a workout that I do occassionally. It's out of a workout book by
Doug Garcia, coach of the WSU masters. I've modified it a bit. Also, I don't use a board for the kicking or a buoy for the pulling.

Build a 100IM
Doug Garcia, WSU Masters

Warm-up 200 free
100 kick
100 pull
Main set 2 x 100 Kick no board
1 x 200 free
4 x 50 fly 1:30
2 x 100 free 1:45
#2 pull
4 x 50 back 1:30
300 free
4 x 50 breast 1:30
2 x 100 free 1:45
#2 pull
1 x 50 free easy
4 x 100 IM 1:35/2:30
150 free easy
Cool down 100 choice easy

That looks good for after my "Voyage of Discovery" tonight.

aquaFeisty
February 15th, 2007, 01:36 PM
Good luck with your workout, Rich!

Remember that if your butterfly starts to fall apart on the 125's where the 50 is fly, it is MUCH BETTER to switch to 1-arm fly or even freestyle than to practice crappy fly!!

SwimStud
February 15th, 2007, 01:38 PM
Good luck with your workout, Rich!

Remember that if your butterfly starts to fall apart on the 125's where the 50 is fly, it is MUCH BETTER to switch to 1-arm fly or even freestyle than to practice crappy fly!!

I only have crappy fly...1 arm is worse. How far am I allowed on the underwater part. If I make 12.5 Yards is that too far?

Weren't you suposed to commute and coach me tonight in exchange for my PT tips? ;) I'll let you off b/c of the snow...hehe

aquaFeisty
February 15th, 2007, 01:47 PM
You haven't seen my fly... you're much better off getting tips from a VAST number of others on this forum than me! :)

All I meant by avoiding crappy fly is if you feel like you're doing the vertical fly (lurch head up, *gasp*, feet graze bottom of pool, plop head down, attempt to kick, lurch head up, *gasp*, etc...) switch to something else!

You can go 15 m underwater. Maximize the start and the kick and minimize the actual amount of fly you have to do! :D

P.S. - I did the shoulder exercises and core stuff Monday and Wednesday. Thanks again for the info! Today I am very sore, though if it is from the exercises or the buttload of snow I shoveled, I don't know!

SwimStud
February 15th, 2007, 01:55 PM
You haven't seen my fly... you're much better off getting tips from a VAST number of others on this forum than me! :)

All I meant by avoiding crappy fly is if you feel like you're doing the vertical fly (lurch head up, *gasp*, feet graze bottom of pool, plop head down, attempt to kick, lurch head up, *gasp*, etc...) switch to something else!

You can go 15 m underwater. Maximize the start and the kick and minimize the actual amount of fly you have to do! :D

P.S. - I did the shoulder exercises and core stuff Monday and Wednesday. Thanks again for the info! Today I am very sore, though if it is from the exercises or the buttload of snow I shoveled, I don't know!

I don't struggle that greatly...if I keep my head down, and don't worry about the breathing it feels better, and I get a few strokes where I actually feel like I'm hurtling along. It may of course, look like comedy to everyone else.

This side of Zones. It's will be a matter of get to the backstroke ASAP. I do a put 25 aroun 18 secs...give me a dive and a handfull of SDKs. Two or 3 pulls and I'll be on my backstroke leg. Its just to complete the event.

The Fortress
February 15th, 2007, 01:55 PM
P.S. - I did the shoulder exercises and core stuff Monday and Wednesday. Thanks again for the info! Today I am very sore, though if it is from the exercises or the buttload of snow I shoveled, I don't know!

Feisty:

Be careful out there in the snow. I went to my ART guy this morning for my little labrum problem. He says he gets a lot more patients coming in at the this time of year from overdoing it by shoveling snow. As to the RC/scapular stuff, you can do it every day, just do different exercises. One day, do 6, the next day do a different six. Ramp up the weight and # of reps very gradually. I hope your sinuses get better soon so you can get back to your fav event!!!!

SwimStud:

Feisty is right about fly. Do not do it unless it is perfect (or, you know, reasonablely good in the "I'm really doing fly and not drowning" ballpark. I'm sure you can do that.). Or else, you'll just learn how to do it wrong and train muscles to do it wrong ... and then we all know what that leads to ... That's why lots of drills are great. The one arm fly is a great drill, as you know. Just chest press a lot while you're doing it.

poolraat
February 15th, 2007, 01:58 PM
The one arm fly is a great drill, as you know. Just chest press a lot while you're doing it.

I could never get this one. I don't breathe forward but to the side and it seems more like a one arm free with a dolphin kick drill than a fly drill.

aquaFeisty
February 15th, 2007, 02:01 PM
Hey Fort,

Thanks for the warning! Yeah, last night, I was thinking to myself, "That was really dumb to have shoveled that snow... it always melts eventually..." Ah well.

Got another round of antibiotics and a steroid nasal inhalor from the doc yesterday. Am feeling very hopeful and might try to get back in the water tomorrow. There's a meet on Feb 25th I'd like to hit. Absolutely nothing longer than a 100, though!

LindsayNB
February 15th, 2007, 05:11 PM
20 years ago I would have said, "what's the big deal with a 200fly?" I did that and the 400 IM in almost every college swim meet. Now I think a 50 is too long. They should have a 25 fly in masters!:rofl:

As someone who can't swim back or breast worth beans I view the 100IM as an opportunity to do a 25 fly. :D

swim4me
February 15th, 2007, 06:19 PM
I could never get this one. I don't breathe forward but to the side and it seems more like a one arm free with a dolphin kick drill than a fly drill.

I also do the drill this way, but my arm is more of a one-arm fly with a side breathe, than a one arm free with a side breathe. My arms move differently out of the water on fly and free.

The Fortress
February 15th, 2007, 07:53 PM
I could never get this one. I don't breathe forward but to the side and it seems more like a one arm free with a dolphin kick drill than a fly drill.

Whatcha doing there? Are you rotating like you would on freestyle so that when your right arm is flying your left arm/shoulder/side is facing the bottom of the pool? Don't be rotating. Try to keep your chest and stomach facing downward toward the bottom of the pool while you're doing the drill. Also, are you bending your arms as in free or are they flat as in fly? If you keep everything flat and chest press, it should work. If you have trouble, use fins to keep your feet up and that should help you stay flat. I like the one arm drill quite a bit. You can do it with your soon-to-arrive-monofin too. I also read it is Ian Crocker's favorite fly drill. It's very hard to stay flat in fly. It takes a lot of core strength and power. If Paul comes back, maybe he can give you better tips.

Chlorini:

Whoops, I guess I was just engaging in distracting breast dissing with the Smiths. Rich knows I'm joshing ... partly. I have a flesh and blood breaststroker/IM-er in the family who can now bust my chops in the 100 IM with her superior third length. I won't even go into the 200. I'm still working up the courage to try it.

poolraat
February 15th, 2007, 08:13 PM
I'm staying flat, not rotating to the side as in free, and no problem keeping hips and feet up, it is just that the arm motion in the water feels like free. I still practice it even though I'm not comfortable with it. One thing I add to this is the thumb drag. That does 2 things, keeps the recovery low and close to the water and also helps to keep the arms in the palms up orientation in the 1st part of the recovery.

Interesting thing with the 200IM. I did a set a few days ago, 1st 2 with fins and doing dolphin kick on the breast leg, and last 2 without fins and legal kick on breast (NO BUTTERFROG!). There was no difference in time between with or without fins.



Whatcha doing there? Are you rotating like you would on freestyle so that when your right arm is flying your left arm/shoulder/side is facing the bottom of the pool? Don't be rotating. Try to keep your chest and stomach facing downward toward the bottom of the pool while you're doing the drill. Also, are you bending your arms as in free or are they flat as in fly? If you keep everything flat and chest press, it should work. If you have trouble, use fins to keep your feet up and that should help you stay flat. I like the one arm drill quite a bit. You can do it with your soon-to-arrive-monofin too. I also read it is Ian Crocker's favorite fly drill. It's very hard to stay flat in fly. It takes a lot of core strength and power. If Paul comes back, maybe he can give you better tips.

Chlorini:

Whoops, I guess I was just engaging in distracting breast dissing with the Smiths. Rich knows I'm joshing ... partly. I have a flesh and blood breaststroker/IM-er in the family who can now bust my chops in the 100 IM with her superior third length. I won't even go into the 200. I'm still working up the courage to try it.

The Fortress
February 15th, 2007, 10:43 PM
Interesting thing with the 200IM. I did a set a few days ago, 1st 2 with fins and doing dolphin kick on the breast leg, and last 2 without fins and legal kick on breast (NO BUTTERFROG!). There was no difference in time between with or without fins.

What?! I had to read that twice. How can this be? I usually guesstimate 10 seconds per hundred or so ... What kind of fins are you using? Fins + wicked SDK usually = speed. Maybe you have a better breaststroke kick than you thought?

SwimStud
February 15th, 2007, 10:48 PM
OK I am back.
I have discovered 2 things.
All strokes other than Breast are silly and life threatening.
Also, I can do 100IM in 1:25 -1:30 I was too busy staving off the aneurism to look at the clock clearly!!

That 125 drill was the hardest thing I've done. I had to quit after 4 reps.
Good news is I think my fly isn't as bad as my back LOL
I felt ok with the Fly, I was undulating just over and under the surface, or it felt like it. I didn't worry about the kick I let it happen. Just tried to get my chest going down with my arm entry, butt up, and then hips down on on the recovery before the hands left water again at the start of the pull.

newmastersswimmer
February 15th, 2007, 10:56 PM
Good news is I think my fly isn't as bad as my back LOL
I felt ok with the Fly, I was undulating just over and under the surface, or it felt like it. I didn't worry about the kick I let it happen. Just tried to get my chest going down with my arm entry, butt up, and then hips down on on the recovery before the hands left water again at the start of the pull.

posted by Little Richard...LOL!!


Sounds like you are slowing transforming into a distance butterflier....You mentioned in an earlier posting on this thread I believe that you were starting to get the timing and momentum going with your fly....Sounds like my evil plan to convert all breaststrokers into butterfliers is really working :thhbbb: .....LOL!!

Newmastersswimmer

SwimStud
February 15th, 2007, 11:58 PM
bring out your inner animal

ande

I did just that in training, unfortunately my inner animal turned out to be just a Hamster on a exercise wheel...

poolraat
February 16th, 2007, 10:50 AM
What?! I had to read that twice. How can this be? I usually guesstimate 10 seconds per hundred or so ... What kind of fins are you using? Fins + wicked SDK usually = speed. Maybe you have a better breaststroke kick than you thought?

Fins (zoomers) + weak-a** kick equals no difference.:rofl:

FlyQueen
February 16th, 2007, 04:51 PM
I totally disagree swim fly when you are tired, the more your shoulder hurts the better - don't stop until the clicking sound is replaced with a much louder ripping/tearing sound. For good measure keep swimming fly until there is nothing left to rip or tear and/or your arm actually falls off of your body. Then you know you have gone through enough pain to swim a 200 fly. Let's be honest the 200 fly is a bit short ... sign up for that short little 500 free and do that fly, then the mile ...



It's all fun and games until someone tears a tendon ...

The Fortress
February 16th, 2007, 04:59 PM
Fins (zoomers) + weak-a** kick equals no difference.:rofl:

Whatcha using those things for? I hate zoomers (except maybe the finis 2, which I had but lost). They're like having stubs for feet. If you're going to use fins, use real fins or those split cut fins for a more natural kick. Forget it, just get the darn monofin. I think it's really helped my SDK.

As for FlyQueen's soliloquoy, :rofl: , FlyQueen, you've been FeistQueen lately. I'm expecting you any minute to make those "cheaters" at your practices do 500s flys with no fins on the 6:00 ... Is it all because of V Day? Mine was the same as yours. :rofl: Or were just describing what's going to happen to Jim-Bo when he really gets back in shape and starts cranking out those 200s?

poolraat
February 16th, 2007, 05:30 PM
Whatcha using those things for? I hate zoomers (except maybe the finis 2, which I had but lost). They're like having stubs for feet. If you're going to use fins, use real fins or those split cut fins for a more natural kick. Forget it, just get the darn monofin. I think it's really helped my SDK.

The monofin better be here by my b-day next week or I'll be writing something on the "Women are Trouble" thread. :joker:

Muppet
February 17th, 2007, 12:11 AM
swim fly when you are tired,
Although this was said in jest, I think this is a good idea; that last 25 of a 100 (esp LCM) can be a killer. Or it can be where one overtakes his/her more fatigued competition. I will often do a 50 fly for time off the blocks to finish off a practice. I know my form is off a little bit, but at least I have practiced managing an efficient and effective fatigued fly. :dedhorse:


FlyQueen, you've been FeistQueen lately ... Is it all because of V Day?
Perhaps someone needs a vday meal after the fact next week...:drink:

poolraat
February 22nd, 2007, 11:57 AM
Interesting thing with the 200IM.

More observations about swimming IM in my workouts.
Yesterday was a combination of 100 and 200 IM swims. Can someone tell me why I can swim a 200 with less misery and pain than the 100? I did the 100's around 1:30 and after each, hang on the wall gasping until I go again. The 200's are at a slightly slower pace, around 3:05-3:10 and I don't feel nearly so wiped out after.

SwimStud
February 22nd, 2007, 12:07 PM
More observations about swimming IM in my workouts.
Yesterday was a combination of 100 and 200 IM swims. Can someone tell me why I can swim a 200 with less misery and pain than the 100? I did the 100's around 1:30 and after each, hang on the wall gasping until I go again. The 200's are at a slightly slower pace, around 3:05-3:10 and I don't feel nearly so wiped out after.

More recovery time napping in the 50 of back...:drink:

aquaFeisty
February 22nd, 2007, 02:14 PM
More observations about swimming IM in my workouts.
Yesterday was a combination of 100 and 200 IM swims. Can someone tell me why I can swim a 200 with less misery and pain than the 100? I did the 100's around 1:30 and after each, hang on the wall gasping until I go again. The 200's are at a slightly slower pace, around 3:05-3:10 and I don't feel nearly so wiped out after.

Although I think Rich was joking with his response, 100 IM's sometimes wipe me out more than 200's too because (my whacked out theory here) there is less 'space' between the fly. You know, you only get 3 laps of other stuff to recover in between the fly on 100. On the 200, although you have a 50 fly all at once, you get 6 laps of other stuff to recover. :-) (Spoken like a true-non-flyer and someone whose backstroke doesn't go fast enough to be anything but a recovery stroke...)

poolraat
February 22nd, 2007, 02:23 PM
Although I think Rich was joking with his response, 100 IM's sometimes wipe me out more than 200's too because (my whacked out theory here) there is less 'space' between the fly. You know, you only get 3 laps of other stuff to recover in between the fly on 100. On the 200, although you have a 50 fly all at once, you get 6 laps of other stuff to recover. :-) (Spoken like a true-non-flyer and someone whose backstroke doesn't go fast enough to be anything but a recovery stroke...)

Rich is giving me a bad time because on another thread I mentioned using the back to recover from the fly.

FlyQueen
February 22nd, 2007, 04:53 PM
Isn't that why backstroke is swum after fly, so we can recover?

Allen Stark
February 23rd, 2007, 11:26 AM
If you are really pushing the 100s they should take longer to recover. You should be swimming the 100s fast enough to be using more anaerobic metabolism than in a 200 and that takes more time to recover from.

globuggie
February 23rd, 2007, 09:39 PM
Let's be honest the 200 fly is a bit short ... sign up for that short little 500 free and do that fly, then the mile ...

Last year, one of my friends on my college club team did the 500 free all fly as a dare. I think he got a free dinner out of it - totally not worth it for over ten minutes of torture.