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jsmwbnc
February 15th, 2007, 12:30 PM
I read somewhere that Jason Lezak only swims 4,000 yds/meters a day. Has anyone else heard this? I don't see how an athlete of his caliber can get by on such little yardage. It seems like if he bumped it up some he could be faster than he already is. I swim more than that and I'm nowhere near as fast as him lol.

Warren
February 15th, 2007, 12:34 PM
I read somewhere that Jason Lezak only swims 4,000 yds/meters a day. Has anyone else heard this? I don't see how an athlete of his caliber can get by on such little yardage. It seems like if he bumped it up some he could be faster than he already is. I swim more than that and I'm nowhere near as fast as him lol.

that is correct. But he swims quality yards. If he bumped up his yardage he would get slower.

scyfreestyler
February 15th, 2007, 12:36 PM
I have heard something similar but can't say for sure. Perhaps his workouts are largely sprint based...lots of maximum effort with short rest intervals.

knelson
February 15th, 2007, 01:07 PM
Lezak swims the 50 and 100 free. Why would he need to do more yardage? You can bet the yardage he does do is very high quality. Lots of very fast swimming. I imagine he does a lot of weights and/or other dryland, too.

By the way, there's a short piece on Jason on USA Swimming's website today: http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/ViewNewsArticle.aspx?TabId=0&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en&ItemId=1424&mid=2977

Here's a quote [emphasis mine]:
“I might seem old to most people in the swimming community, but I still feel young, and the way I train allows me to continue to swim beyond 2008 if I choose to do so. I don't pound my body with excessive yardage, and I take very good care of myself.”

USMSarah
February 15th, 2007, 01:11 PM
Yup. I've heard that.

Frank Thompson
February 15th, 2007, 01:12 PM
I read somewhere that Jason Lezak only swims 4,000 yds/meters a day. Has anyone else heard this? I don't see how an athlete of his caliber can get by on such little yardage. It seems like if he bumped it up some he could be faster than he already is. I swim more than that and I'm nowhere near as fast as him lol.

Jesse:

I would believe that he swims in the area of 4000 to 6000 and no more than that. This does not include dryland and weights in which he incorporates in his training. The reason I say this is because he swims for David Salo at Nova Aquatics and they train a little differently then say a club down the road called Mission Viejo. David Salo came out with a book that was titled "Sprint Salo" in 1989, detailing the type of high intensity workouts and why he feels a need to train swimmers this way in comparison to the traditional methods of the 1970's of more volume to build up the areobic base. Back in the late 1980's and early 1990's he was a guest coach and wrote a monthly piece for Swimming World magazine. A lot of his ideas were under fire because he wrote against traditional concepts of the day. Since then his ideas have been somewhat excepted but not by the traditionalists of say someone like Bob Bowman. I will provide a link with a story about this that I found called "Coaching To The Beat Of A Different Drummer".

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4270/is_200508/ai_n14879156

fatboy
February 15th, 2007, 01:14 PM
I believe he also does a good deal of weightlifting and other dryland work. Here's a link from some time ago on his strength-training.


http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/jasonlezak1.htm

knelson
February 15th, 2007, 01:17 PM
The reason I say this is because he swims for David Salo at Nova Aquatics

Perhaps more accurately, formerly of NOVA. Salo now coaches at USC. It's been a tough year for Salo, especially with his women's team. Several Olympic caliber athletes have chosen to leave the program (Weir, Jeffrey, Keller). It must have been a very drastic change in coaching philosophy at USC going from Mark Schubert to Dave Salo.

scyfreestyler
February 15th, 2007, 01:19 PM
Jesse:

I would believe that he swims in the area of 4000 to 6000 and no more than that. This does not include dryland and weights in which he incorporates in his training. The reason I say this is because he swims for David Salo at Nova Aquatics and they train a little differently then say a club down the road called Mission Viejo. David Salo came out with a book that was titled "Sprint Salo" in 1989, detailing the type of high intensity workouts and why he feels a need to train swimmers this way in comparison to the traditional methods of the 1970's of more volume to build up the areobic base. Back in the late 1980's and early 1990's he was a guest coach a wrote a monthly piece for Swimming World magazine. A lot of his ideas were under fire because he wrote against traditional concepts of the day. Since then his ideas have been somewhat excepted but not by the traditionalists of say someone like Bob Bowman. I will provide a link with a story about this that I found called "Coaching To The Beat Of A Different Drummer".

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4270/is_200508/ai_n14879156

Obviously there is more than one way to train for gold. Bob Bowman has certainly showed us that his methods are worthy of note. Similarly, Salo has turned our some champs as well..in this case, Jason Lezak.

scyfreestyler
February 15th, 2007, 01:21 PM
Perhaps more accurately, formerly of NOVA. Salo now coaches at USC. It's been a tough year for Salo, especially with his women's team. Several Olympic caliber athletes have chosen to leave the program (Weir, Jeffrey, Keller). It must have been a very drastic change in coaching philosophy at USC going from Mark Schubert to Dave Salo.

Didn't Sandeno come from there as well? How about Erik Vendt? That would make three that jumped ship for Club Wolverine.

Edit: The third being Kailyn Keller.

USMSarah
February 15th, 2007, 01:24 PM
Didn't Sandeno come from there as well?

That sounds right.

knelson
February 15th, 2007, 01:27 PM
Didn't Sandeno come from there as well? How about Erik Vendt? That would make three that jumped ship for Club Wolverine.

Yes, but I didn't include them because they weren't on the college team. I think Kalyn Keller actually trained with Bowman at Club Wolverine last summer, but then returned to USC to swim this season. Her leaving so late in the season is somewhat surprising gicen she's a senior this year. I would have thought she could have stuck it out for the team, but it's her decision.

Frank Thompson
February 15th, 2007, 01:47 PM
Kirk, your right he is at USC now but I believe for about 6 months he coached both the USC and NOVA teams until they found a replacement. Jason Lesak believes in this type of training and he believes in David Salo and I guess his results speak and back up that type of training for sprinters. What people are suspect of is "Is this the best type of training for a Distance Swimmer"? These questions were asked many years ago about the high intensity training that was written and supported by David Salo. Since those days he has had many great olympic swimmers to back up his methods.

However, I have read that some traditionalists have said, then why did Aaron Piersol stay at Texas instead of going back to Salo. Same with Amanda Beard, who trained with Frank Busch at Univ. of Arizona before the 2004 Olympics. Some coaches and swimmers still feel that the traditional methods of the past especially for Distance Swimmers should not be abandoned for the high intensity training methods that are supported by David Salo. One swimmer who I believe was converted to the high intensity training methods was Lenny Krayzelburg and he suprised a lot of people by making the 2004 Olympic team in the 100 meter Back after he was down for 2 years with an injury. He left USC and Mark Schubert at the time and joined NOVA and Salo for his comeback.

I think its up to the swimmer and he has to feel what he thinks is best based on his age, experience, career, injuries, etc. Some swimmers like say Janet Evans would not like a high intensity program and would favor the traditional method. Some one like say, Natalie Coughlin, would favor the high intensity program and not the traditional program philosophy.

Frank Thompson
February 15th, 2007, 01:54 PM
Speaking about Jason Lezak. A story on the USA Swimming site was up today about Jason and what the future holds called "No Shame in his Game".

http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/ViewNewsArticle.aspx?TabId=0&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en&ItemId=1424&mid=2977

tjburk
February 15th, 2007, 01:59 PM
One of the biggest factors you have to remember, is that we are all different. We all respond to different kinds of training and coaching. The most important thing we can do as a swimmer is to find the type of coach that works for us.

knelson
February 15th, 2007, 02:22 PM
Even if Salo's training philosophy works well for distance swimmers it's got to be a hard sell for those who have trained for years doing mega yardage. Mentally it would be very difficult to give up the kind of training you're used to--and has worked in the past--for something so radically different.

Frank Thompson
February 15th, 2007, 02:45 PM
Even if Salo's training philosophy works well for distance swimmers it's got to be a hard sell for those who have trained for years doing mega yardage. Mentally it would be very difficult to give up the kind of training you're used to--and has worked in the past--for something so radically different.

Kirk:

That is exactly why there was such an outburst back in 1988/1989 when the articles about High Intensity Training appeared in Swimming World and then the book came out shortly after. A lot of Olympic and NCAA coaches felt that the concepts were to radical and that the minimal mode would not lead to peak performance. Two coaches come to mine that lectured against this type of training. Doc Counsiliman did a presentation at ASCA called the "Oversimplification of Training" where he said that swimming will be headed in the wrong direction if swimmers and coaches adopt this type of training. Dennis Pursley, who was the National Team Director of the USA Team agreed and wrote against this type of training in his articles that followed Salo in Swimming World. I don't know if you were swimming for MSU at the time of this but a lot of swimmers heard a lot about this when it was going on and there were great debates at the time as to what was right. More is bad and less is better. Traditional coaches did not want to hear about this and wanted to stay in there traditional max mode of training.

Muppet
February 15th, 2007, 03:02 PM
Even if Salo's training philosophy works well for distance swimmers it's got to be a hard sell for those who have trained for years doing mega yardage. Mentally it would be very difficult to give up the kind of training you're used to--and has worked in the past--for something so radically different.

How about someone who chooses the radically different training? Think of Morgan's (blainesapprentice) situation. A change may be all someone like her needs to get over the plateau hump and/or prevent massive burnout.

SwimStud
February 15th, 2007, 03:06 PM
You will only succeed if you believe what you're doing is right. It doesn't mean you are either right or wrong, or that you cannot change your mind.
IMHO.

swimr4life
February 15th, 2007, 03:46 PM
I know I was a child of the mega distance, "No pain, No Gain" mentality of the late 70's - early 80's. I am a sprinter and swam ok but got burned out by the time I was 19. I was exhausted all the time and never saw the results I felt I should for all my hard work. I'd have to taper almost a month and a half to swim well at the end of the season.

As a masters swimmer I don't workout nearly as much but do quality, not quantity. In 2005 I was only .5 second off my best time that I did at 18! I think "garbage yardage" doesn't help a sprinter at all.

I do think distance swimmers have to train more distance to be successful.

knelson
February 15th, 2007, 03:56 PM
That is exactly why there was such an outburst back in 1988/1989 when the articles about High Intensity Training appeared in Swimming World and then the book came out shortly after.

I remember the outcry, but I don't remember who the key players were at the time. My recollection is reading a story in Swimming World about a coach who thought about 3,000 per workout was all that was needed and went on to describe how he trained his swimmers in this manner. Was this Salo or someone else?

jsmwbnc
February 15th, 2007, 04:49 PM
My recollection is reading a story in Swimming World about a coach who thought about 3,000 per workout was all that was needed and went on to describe how he trained his swimmers in this manner. Was this Salo or someone else?

If you had limited time in the pool 3,000/workout could work. 1500 of warming up, drillls, kicking, pulling, 1000 distance set, 500 sprint set, cooldown

Frank Thompson
February 15th, 2007, 04:50 PM
I remember the outcry, but I don't remember who the key players were at the time. My recollection is reading a story in Swimming World about a coach who thought about 3,000 per workout was all that was needed and went on to describe how he trained his swimmers in this manner. Was this Salo or someone else?

Yes it was David Salo. In the March 1989 edition of Swimming World on page 55 and 56 he has an article that he wrote called "Training Tenets Challenged" where he describes how a senior level swimmer training 3000 yards a day for 8 weeks had progressive improvements in every freestyle event from 50 to 800 meters and had lifetime bests in every event except the 800. He also talked about the comeback of Rowdy Gaines swimming in the 1988 Olympic Trials. He said that after a long layoff that Rowdy tried to make a comeback in 6 months and got pretty close to making the Olympic team. In fact, so close that his :50.2 time was only .04 from his Gold medal winning time in 1984 and got 7th place missing the team by one place. The point he was trying to make is that he did maybe one sixth of the training he did in the past for the 100 Free and pretty much had the same results.

These articles started about November 1987 and if you are a premium member over at Swimming World you can access them on there website. This one I was referring to had Janet Evans on the cover so I found that pretty ironic with this type of training.

Nathan
February 15th, 2007, 05:53 PM
I hate to plug it, but it's on the topic so... You should tune in to the episode of Deck Pass with Jason as our guest. We discuss his training yardage as well as his training alone.

On another note, I've talked many times with Jason about his training philosophy, and he's really on par, I think. With him it's all about quality, but he also derives much of his talent from what he does outside of the pool. He lives his training with everything he does throughout the day dedicated in some way toward making him a better athlete. I'm a big fan!

The Fortress
February 15th, 2007, 08:23 PM
On another note, I've talked many times with Jason about his training philosophy, and he's really on par, I think. With him it's all about quality, but he also derives much of his talent from what he does outside of the pool. He lives his training with everything he does throughout the day dedicated in some way toward making him a better athlete. I'm a big fan!

This is a little obscure. What is he doing outside of the pool and how is he using his day? I bet he's getting a nap. I want one. :D

I'm with my twin, Beth (well, except I'm nowhere near my times at 18). High quality speedwork is best, at least for us sprinters. So I'm happy to follow the Salo model. Whenever I ramp up the distance or yardage (like I did last week), my shoulder and I regret it and I'm not sure how much it helps.

Are distance swimmers really only doing 3000 yards? That's hard to believe. How does Salo adapt his "high intensity" philosophy for them? I guess they just swim longer distances at race speed?

runner girl
February 15th, 2007, 09:34 PM
I want to add to what Fort said about speedwork. In my opinion speedwork is necessary for all distances, it's just that the pace and the distance for the repeats may be different. It just seems obvious that if you don't train the body at race pace you can't really expect it to happen on race day. And to do race pace, you just may have to cut out some of the overall yardage. My :2cents: .

lobaugma
August 11th, 2008, 12:30 PM
I have a background in both disciplines and I must say I prefer high-intensity training.
I started swimming with a coach who follows Dave Salo very closely, but realized how important it is to have an aerobic capacity built up so that you can pursue high-intensity training. As a young swimmer, coaches should always focus on quality and aeorbic capacity, rather than anaerobic capacity. This method pays huge dividends in the long run. I started swimming at 13 and trained a lot of quality distance training until I developed my strength (hit puberty). Once my age group hit 17, we started to focus more on our racing. We developed a lot more explosive power by training at fast speeds. I dropped a lot of time in my 50 and 100, but still greatly improved by 200s.
I went to a college where I was originally told my workouts would be tailored to fit my goals. Unfortunately, my school had to begin training off-campus and had little training time. So the coach went with a generic training scheme for everyone and results suffered. The workouts involved a lot of 200s at 75%, which did little to help sprinting or swimming the 200. People quit after getting burned out. I never came within a second of my lifetime best for either my 50 fr, 100fr, 50fl, 100fl, or my 200fl.
Once we got a pool on campus again, the coach begin to structure the workouts that involved a lot more sprint work. I, along with most of the team, saw huge drops in time. I went from a 22.0 in the 50 fr(scy)while we were doing a lot of distance work to 20.3 when we were doing more sprint work.
I think it is absolutely imperative for coaches to find the right balance between quality and quantity. Remember, even when you train high-quality, sprint swimming, there are times when you have to boost up the yardage and do some threshold training to improve aerobic capacity. Swimmers just need to learn what they feel comfortable doing and adjust your training so you can do better.
My suggestion is train for about six weeks doing a lot of yardage at a pretty solid pace. Do a race at the end of six weeks and see how well you do. Then take a few weeks where you do light swimming. After about three weeks, spend six weeks building aerobic capacity through sprint work and high-intensity training. At the end of week six, do a race and compare your results from the previous race.

Final Note:
Maintaining a quality stroke is the most important element in swimming. However you can maintain an efficient stroke is most likely the best way to train.

chaos
August 11th, 2008, 04:52 PM
so a question:
jason is old (30 something) ;trains low yardage. self coached.


where is the outrage?

where are the accusations?

where is the charge that he is making a mockery of every usas and div 1 program in the country?

tjburk
August 11th, 2008, 05:25 PM
Dave, you have it wrong....nobody else has ever done this so it must be PEDs:mooning:

tjrpatt
August 11th, 2008, 06:57 PM
He is a sprinter. He doesn't need to train that much. Besides, whatever he is doing is working. Let's hope that he can shine in the individual 100 free this time.

chaos
August 11th, 2008, 07:06 PM
Dave, you have it wrong....nobody else has ever done this so it must be PEDs:mooning:


must be.
some posters are being awfully quiet.

gull
August 11th, 2008, 07:36 PM
some posters are being awfully quiet.

Probably has nothing to do with the fact that he is nine years younger than she is and did not retire from the sport for 13 of the last 16 years.

Of course, since he never had the advantage of pregnancy, his performance is a bit suspicious.

aquageek
August 11th, 2008, 07:42 PM
Lezak never left the scene and he's always been in the top 5 sprinters in the US for the past decade or so, give or take. Let's go back to analyzing Kitajima's performance that tj has frozen on microfiche in his deep freezer so we can whine about that some more.

tjburk
August 11th, 2008, 07:50 PM
Lezak never left the scene and he's always been in the top 5 sprinters in the US for the past decade or so, give or take. Let's go back to analyzing Kitajima's performance that tj has frozen on microfiche in his deep freezer so we can whine about that some more.

You're just jealous!!!!!!!:thhbbb:

Breaststroker wanna be!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gshaw
August 16th, 2008, 12:26 AM
I have watched every race at these Olympics and there have been some amazing races, fantastic times, and records set. Michael Phelps, clearly the best swimmer, ever. Period. But still, after watching all of it, including Phelps amazing razor thin win in the 100 fly tonight, the most impressive swim of these Olympics is Jason Lezak's anchor leg on the 400 free relay. What he did, against the best 100 free swimmer in the world, and the split he swam, 46.06....well, we may never see anything like it again.

What Lezak did psychologically, emotionally, is incredible. No one expected him to catch a body length and pass Bernard. No one .... It would have been far easier to simply swim very fast and yet lose to the superlative French team. Much easier. A 46.06... come on! Phelps will be the star of these Olympics and he should be, but in my book Jason Lezak swam the best race, the most amazing swimming performance we have ever seen or probably will ever see.

Jason Lezak...he is the man of these Olympics. I hope he has a great anchor leg tomorrow and that it doesn't have to be as close!