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isobel
February 17th, 2007, 11:53 AM
Now that I am friends with the 1000, how do I embrace the 400IM? Any training tricks? The interval suggestions for the 1000 free (my pace plus 15 seconds rest) has nicely upped my about-to-throw-up threshold. Now I need some speed for the back/breast legs of the 400. Please advise.

FlyQueen
February 17th, 2007, 12:13 PM
Now that I am friends with the 1000, how do I embrace the 400IM? Any training tricks? The interval suggestions for the 1000 free (my pace plus 15 seconds rest) has nicely upped my about-to-throw-up threshold. Now I need some speed for the back/breast legs of the 400. Please advise.

If you must swim this event ... blech ... then you need to work on each stroke intensely. (DUH)

Your fly needs to get to the point where it is completely comfortable and relaxed. You want to try and negative split each 100 (after the fly) by about a second. To do that you need to build the first 50 and go for it on the second 50.

You'll want to do a lot of stroke sets, not necessarily IM sets, at least initially. Try and do 200s of each stroke where you attempt to cruise the 1st 100 then hit your target time for that 100 in the 400IM on the second 100. Does that make sense?

Work on doing 200s where you go 100 fly/100 back and 100 back/100 breast and 100 breast/100 free. Free needs to be your money stroke, and if you are a good distance freestyler you will probably have enough in the tank to bring it home strong on the 100 free leg.

I would devote a practice if possible a week to each stroke and one to IM. Try to do at least some fly every practice - drill, kick, swim, whatever. For the 400IM your breaststroke should be lower and flatter than it would be in a 100 breast.

A few good sets include doing 5 x 200 rotate through 1 of each stroke and 1 IM - change the order up on this so you aren't always doing IM order.

5 x 200 stroke (pick one stroke) and try to negative split


You will want to be comfortable swimming strong tired and not having your stroke fall apart so lots of drills especially at the end of practice will be helpful, too. This the toughest event out there in my mind and it takes a lot of work and there is a good amount of strategy involved, too. Every time I swam it (all three times) I dropped huge time just from learning how to take it out and when to push.

GOOD LUCK!

scyfreestyler
February 17th, 2007, 12:56 PM
Fall in love with the 400 IM? I don't think that is humanly possible.

Frank Thompson
February 17th, 2007, 01:35 PM
Isobel:

I am going to provide a link we had of this discussion from about a year ago. Hope this helps.

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=5864&highlight=george+bole

knelson
February 17th, 2007, 02:05 PM
Your fly needs to get to the point where it is completely comfortable and relaxed.

I'll second that. If you feel too tired after the fly you might as well get out of the pool right there. It makes for a looooong final 300 if you're already pooped!

jim clemmons
February 18th, 2007, 01:13 AM
If you can get to the point of being able to compete 200's (especially fly) in meets, a 400IM will not be that big of a deal. It'll take three or four probably before it comes to a point of being able to relax. Start now and next year at this time, you'll be very surprised at your progress.

Redbird Alum
February 18th, 2007, 11:17 PM
Now I need some speed for the back/breast legs of the 400. Please advise.

Iso -

Not a breastroker at all, but was wondering how much of the back and breast you swim regularly? Also, how do you feel about each of them in terms of your technique? (Since you called these two out, I figured you were already comfortable with the fly/free portion.)

jnbaker
February 19th, 2007, 04:11 PM
how do I fall in love with the 400IM?


Try to run into the 400 IM right at closing time, just before they've turned on the house lights, when you've had at least a 12 pack to drink.

:drink:

isobel
February 22nd, 2007, 04:11 PM
Iso -

Not a breastroker at all, but was wondering how much of the back and breast you swim regularly? Also, how do you feel about each of them in terms of your technique? (Since you called these two out, I figured you were already comfortable with the fly/free portion.)

Redbird is right on and has been giving me tips. Throwing it out to the public now. How come, even in a 100 IM, I flip from backstroke to breaststroke and feel like my muscles are fried? Seems like this should be an easy leg; different muscles; different motions. Ideas on how to strengthen the middle of this race, the back/breast?

Please keep in mind that I am not at this training level:

400 fly
400 (fly/back)
400 back
400 (back/breast)
400 breast
400 (breast/free)
400 free
400 IM

(Suggested set from previous postings on 400 IM.)

jaegermeister
February 22nd, 2007, 08:52 PM
Please keep in mind that I am not at this training level:

400 fly
400 (fly/back)
400 back
400 (back/breast)
400 breast
400 (breast/free)
400 free
400 IM

(Suggested set from previous postings on 400 IM.)


This is a monster set. It seems you'd have to be quite a ways along the fitness curve to do this and feel like you'd survive.

There are obviously some divergent paths to the 400 IM. One is to not do it till you've been able to commit a ton of time and effort into your training, and have several of the above mentioned sets under your belt. If you do this, you'll probably have impressive results. This may be why so few people swim this event in Minnesota.
I like the approach that this is just a personal challenge. I know I'm not likely to make a national qualifying time. And I probably won't brag about the result. But I know I can do a strong 200 IM; why not see what else I can do?
There's a rough analogy in the running world. There are some obsessive runners who would never ever consider doing a marathon if you had to walk ever in 26.2 miles. But of course, the marathon distance has exploded in popularity, and there are a lot of us who don't feel badly to have walked through aide stations or perhaps caught a break at about mile 23.
The analogy breaks down in the pool, of course. We can't float, or walk, and the time of the event is shorter than most people's 1 mile running time. I think where it works is to use the event to push our envelope, not expecting perfection. Then we can share some misery afterwards!!!:drink:

islandsox
February 22nd, 2007, 08:59 PM
I'd suggest swimming more of those combos that give you grief; let your body get used to them and the transition. Plus, for a lot of people, it is eazy to then rest on the breast because of its design unless it is the power stroke of the IM'er.

I was always a back and free person, but decent on fly. So I would try to always be the 2nd or 3rd to touch the wall at the end of fly, then take off on the back and get a lead; hold on to it with breast, and make more ground with my free.

Why not consider doing fly/back combos, and back/breast combos, and breast/free combos, and to top it all off, fly/free/fly combos. Break the IM down into sections. And even tho you are flipping between the back/breast, do you find that you need more air in this transition? Many people are even now starting to do extremely fast non-flipping transitions between these two strokes and it gives them more air. Just something to think about. You'll fall in love with it when you see improvement!!!

Donna

Muppet
February 23rd, 2007, 08:23 PM
How come, even in a 100 IM, I flip from backstroke to breaststroke and feel like my muscles are fried?

A lot of IMers will tell you not to kill your legs in the front half of the IM, especially the backstroke. That may be where your friedness is coming from.

That set of 400s - change that to 100s - I did that with FlyQueen's team yesterday and it was very challenging.
:dedhorse:

JaneDohSwims
February 24th, 2007, 06:00 PM
You don't want to kill your legs in the first half of an IM whether it's a 200 or 400 for sure. Breaststrokers win IMs usually so work that stroke, too. It's not as evil as many believe.

idguru
February 26th, 2007, 06:14 AM
You don't want to kill your legs in the first half of an IM whether it's a 200 or 400 for sure. Breaststrokers win IMs usually so work that stroke, too. It's not as evil as many believe.

Yeah, I agree with Jane. I used to race 200 and 400 IM, and I always started to really pull away from the rest of the lanes on my breaststroke leg. I have a fairly decent fly and a strong solid freestyle, but my back stinks, so thanks to my best stroke, breast, for saving my arse.

So yeah, work on breaststroke. :woot:

blainesapprentice
February 27th, 2007, 06:07 PM
I agree. after that back breast transition im like Bloody _____! And my breaststroke is not so strong...but I have been working it a lot more than I did all season (since I'm swimming teh 200 and 100im this weekend...and NEVER get to swim the im during college--so I don't bother to concentrate on breaststroke) After my shoulder surgeries during my freshman year at a different school I only did breaststroke and my best time for the 100 was a 1:16 I believe and my 200breast was a 2:44 maybe...but I really have to work at it, and swim primarily breast in practice...but since I'm a flyer...I tend to avoid breast.

my poor im.

unfortunate400imer
February 28th, 2007, 07:01 PM
the 400im rocks when you are at your final competition meet fully tapered and ready to go. The change of strokes makes it so much fun to race and strategize!

It stinks though in season

That said, I would really work on transitions in practice. Like 100s sets where you do 50 fly/ 50 back, then 50 back/50 breast, then 50 breast/50 free. You got to feel good about changing strokes (and muscle groups!)

And when you race, think about building the second 50 of each stroke. You should negative split each 100 (except for maybe the fly of course).

But most of all have fun with it...race and work on that weak stroke the most (so you don't get smoked);)