Managing Stroke Rate Vs Length In A Sprint?

[SKO]

I tried running through a few pages of search results, but didnt really find relevant results.

For the past few years i have been working very hard on stroke length in practice and have improved a ton in this area (can hit 14 pretty regularly and like 11 if i really focus on lengthening it out (5'10)), but when i get on the blocks and race the 50 or 100 i feel like a lot of that goes out the door and i fall back on only stroke rate.

Do you all have any advice on finding an "optimal" length/rate ratio? or any advice on how to control this urge?

I have been improving consistently, but i just feel that there are greater gains that i could be making.

[The Fortress]

Paul Smith, Kaizen, Ande and others are the real experts on this.

There was some discussion of SR vs. SPL in a sprint in the recent sprinter/weights thread started by RTodd. I think it was discussed in the "muscular endurance" thread as well.

The specific topic of SR vs. SPL was also the title of a thread and discussed at length on http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=7145

Have you counted your strokes in a 50, 100, 200? Most think this is beneficial as a diagnostic tool.

It's a tough balancing act. I think many people feel the same way you do. I know I swim a 50 vastly differently than a 200. You should have a pretty good SR for a rip roaring 50. And it should be a lot flatter with less rotation. You can't afford to sit around dwelling on SPL during a sprint -- so I'm not sure how much you want to quell that urge to go fast. You need that inner animal to sprint IMHO. :lolup:

Now, that doesn't mean you ignore SPL of course. But if you've been diligently practicing SPL, I bet you have done more "imprinting" than you think. And you say you've been improving consistently, so that's great! It sounds like you're heading in the right direction. Of course, anyone can always improve. I'm not sure if there's an "optimal" SPL. It depends on so many factors. 11-14 seems like normal variance depending on the distance swum.

I seem to recall Kaizen saying that, when he coached sprinters, he would give sprint sets of 25s focusing on SPL while sprinting. If the target SPL and speed were not reached, they swimmers would repeat the set.

[LindsayNB]

Just to clarify, are the 14 or 11 you hit in practice at race pace?
At the risk of being simplistic, practicing swimming your target SPL at your target race pace is probably the best way to make it happen in an actual race. Clearly you will have to do this for less than race distances and with adequate rest.

[Warren]

If you are sprinting dont worry about your stroke legth too much. Fred bousquet took 30 in 18.74 seconds. Thats a lot of strokes in that amount of time. As long as you have good form, haul ass, dont hold anything back.

[Redbird Alum]

Warren, I like your style... and it's even in your signature line.

[swimr4life]

As long as you have good form, haul ass, dont hold anything back.

Sprints are so much fun! Don't think...just GO! :D

[swimr4life]

SKO, I'm sorry...I read Warren's comment and had to comment. Now back to your question! :D

I think you have to find what works best for you in a race. There is a very fine line between too much "lengthening" and not enough. You don't want to slow your turnover down too much for a sprint. Long, strong and fast strokes are needed.

[Paul Smith]

One of my favorite warm up sets to prep for a high intensity speed workout is the following (stolen from Sun Devil Masters):

16 x 25's @ :40 (also can be done as a set of 50's @ 1:15)
#1 DPS (distance per stroke)
#2 Rev (over spin)
#3 Fast (should be your optimal...falling somewhere in between the first 2)

This often is followed by something like 10 x 50's @ 3:00 from a dive..best average

I find that one way to increase my awareness of something that I may need to tweak is to over exagerate it. For example....if I'm taking to many strokes then try to actually take even more....then drop back to DPS. If I'm starting to drop my thumb on entry...increase that drop....then come back to level.

Warren....just as I responded to george I disagree with this approach. In a 50 or 100 where improvements often times are tenths or hundreths...efficiency is key and slightly lengthing your stroke can have a huge impact. SPL in my opinion is a constant variable in progressing in all distances/strokes.

[geochuck]

I think we can do long and fast strokes. I have always had a long stroke, 50
to 54 strokes a minute in a marathon race but boosted the stroke rate to 75 strokes a minute to sprint in a long race. I still did long strokes when sprinting.

[Warren]

I think the best way is to do it is keep the fastest stroke rate posible while still maitaining good form and finishing each stroke thats what is going to get you down the pool the fastest.

[SKO]

Warren you literally made me laugh out loud in the office. I do like your style as well, but i do wish to make sure im being as efficient as possible.

Thanks for the good response.

I have been trying to do sets where i try and incorporate DPS + Sprint. i.e. 100's holding 13 strokes per length trying to hold a set pace.

Thanks for that set paul. Its something that i've never done and it looks like a good way to get me feeling a lot of different things and find a balance.

Zirconium thanks for the links gives me more resources to look at.

Basically one of my faster 100s in practice was like 57-58 seconds (from a push) and my stroke counts were 13,14,16,15 by 25.

Do you guys find that your race stroke counts are significantly higher then your fastest practice counts?

[Peter Cruise]

Scott- as you know, sometimes when people increase their stroke rate suddenly they 'spin their wheels'. One little mental device I have used to manage this problem is just before doing a 'guts out' or quality sprint in workout I do a few 25's with fists clenched, high turnover. For whatever kinesthetic reason, when I then sprint with normal hand position, my hands bite the water & stroke doesn't fall apart under a higher rate.

[chaos]

Basically one of my faster 100s in practice was like 57-58 seconds (from a push) and my stroke counts were 13,14,16,15 by 25.

Do you guys find that your race stroke counts are significantly higher then your fastest practice counts?

I will often impose a stroke count on sets in practice.

exaples:
5 x 200 descend
#1 @ 12spl, #2 @ 13 spl, #3 @ 14 spl etc

5 x 200 build
1st 50 @ 12spl, 2nd 50 @ 13spl etc.

I don't often do sprints, but if I am doing a few dive start 25's, I will usually spin too fast on the first one, with each additional rep, I will try to hold or beat that time with fewer strokes until I can go no faster.