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islandsox
February 25th, 2007, 07:24 PM
This question has come up offline so I thought I'd post the question to find out the rule about this transitional turn between the IM's back and breast since I no longer do IMs.

Years ago, a flip turn between back and breast was allowed; it was not the new "freestyle" back turn, a swimmer could touch the wall in backstroke, and then flip over to enter the breastroke. Now I believe more swimmers are backstroking into the wall and open turning into the breaststroke portion of the IM.

For all of you Im'ers out there, what is now legal: both turns or does a swimmer have to do an "open turn"?

Donna

SwimStud
February 25th, 2007, 07:27 PM
We'll find out on Mar 11th when I flip my backstroke, touchwith feet and push off itno a breast streamline and pullout.

FlyQueen
February 25th, 2007, 07:32 PM
The rule is that you must finish each stroke in an IM as you would if the race was ending there. SO you have to finish on your back with one hand touching then you can flip, do the "old school" spin turn OR do an open turn.

poolraat
February 25th, 2007, 07:34 PM
Either turn is legal as long as the finish to the backstroke portion is finished on the back. Here is the rule:

101.5 INDIVIDUAL MEDLEY — ....
.3 Turns
A Intermediate turns within each stroke shall conform to the turn rules for that stroke.
B The turns when changing from one stroke to another shall conform to the finish rules for the stroke just completed, and shall be as follows:

(1) Butterfly to backstroke — The swimmer must touch as described in 101.2.5. Once a legal touch has been made, the swimmer may turn in any manner, but the shoulders must be at or past the vertical toward the back when the swimmer leaves the wall.

(2) Backstroke to breaststroke — The swimmer must touch the wall while on the back. Once a legal touch has been made, the swimmer may turn in any manner but the shoulders must be at or past the vertical toward the breast when the swimmer leaves the wall and the prescribed breaststroke form must be attained prior to the first arm stroke.

(3) Breaststroke to freestyle — The swimmer must touch as described in 101.1.4. Once a legal touch has been made, the swimmer may turn in any manner.



This question has come up offline so I thought I'd post the question to find out the rule about this transitional turn between the IM's back and breast since I no longer do IMs.

Years ago, a flip turn between back and breast was allowed; it was not the new "freestyle" back turn, a swimmer could touch the wall in backstroke, and then flip over to enter the breastroke. Now I believe more swimmers are backstroking into the wall and open turning into the breaststroke portion of the IM.

For all of you Im'ers out there, what is now legal: both turns or does a swimmer have to do an "open turn"?

Donna

SwimStud
February 25th, 2007, 08:01 PM
So you can't do the freestyle back turn in an IM then?

Redbird Alum
February 25th, 2007, 08:54 PM
Swimstud -

You are correct. You must touch while still on your back.

isobel
February 25th, 2007, 09:04 PM
Well, you can do the "freestyle" turn in backstroke if you are doing the 400 IM; you just can't do it in the transition from the last leg of the backstroke to the first leg of the breaststroke.

AnnG
February 26th, 2007, 02:28 AM
I swim all the IM's. Depending on the length I do either a flip or an open turn. I really need the air in the 400 IM, for the 100 and the 200 its less important. I wish I could master Phelps' back/breast turn. I have watched that video snip at least 1000 times (seriously) trying to figure it out and I have yet to duplicate it in the pool. First, he does it so fast its hard to see the mechanics, second, I can't seem to place my hand on the wall properly. On the last backstroke stroke, he crosses the hand over his head to the opposite side of his body, touches AND gets a big breath just like an open turn, but then he flips sideways and pushes off on his stomach nice and deep and ready for his breaststroke pullout. I can sorta see what he is doing but I can't actually do it myself in the pool! It's incredibly fast.

dorothyrde
February 26th, 2007, 07:16 AM
Ann, I had a coach try to teach me Phelp's turn....and I think I drank half the pool. The kids learn it fairly easily, as kid's do, but to learn it as an adult is hard.

tjburk
February 26th, 2007, 09:24 AM
I have found the easiest way to learn it is to turn using the same hand evertime until you get used to it.....then try switching hands. I use the same hand everytime in a race though....get to know your stroke count and try using the same hand everytime. Practice, practice, practice!!!!

swimr4life
February 26th, 2007, 10:59 AM
I wish I could master Phelps' back/breast turn. I have watched that video snip at least 1000 times (seriously) trying to figure it out and I have yet to duplicate it in the pool. First, he does it so fast its hard to see the mechanics, second, I can't seem to place my hand on the wall properly. On the last backstroke stroke, he crosses the hand over his head to the opposite side of his body, touches AND gets a big breath just like an open turn, but then he flips sideways and pushes off on his stomach nice and deep and ready for his breaststroke pullout. I can sorta see what he is doing but I can't actually do it myself in the pool! It's incredibly fast.


MEE TOO! I've watched it so many times! I've tried to duplicate it and can't get it right. It is amazing and very fast!

blainesapprentice
February 26th, 2007, 01:37 PM
Where is this Phelps video link?

SwimStud
February 26th, 2007, 01:39 PM
Where is this Phelps video link?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WeL_HmMsbWI

Morgan when you have perfected it...hold a clinic :D

knelson
February 26th, 2007, 02:18 PM
On the last backstroke stroke, he crosses the hand over his head to the opposite side of his body, touches AND gets a big breath just like an open turn, but then he flips sideways and pushes off on his stomach nice and deep and ready for his breaststroke pullout.

I don't think he's crossing his arm over. If you watch closely (I guess you'll need to watch a 1,001st or 1,002nd time :)) his arm touches without crossing over then he immediately drops the opposite shoulder and flips.

swimr4life
February 26th, 2007, 02:40 PM
I agree with knelson. He just does it so quick, it looks like he crosses over. He just drops the shoulder on the side he turns towards.

LindsayNB
February 26th, 2007, 02:44 PM
There are several videos of the back-breast turn that might make it easier to make out what is going on than the Phelps video. The underwater ones in particular:

http://youtube.com/profile_videos?user=swimee

Is there any way to view videos from youtube frame by frame or in slow motion?

SwimStud
February 26th, 2007, 02:49 PM
There are several videos of the back-breast turn that might make it easier to make out what is going on than the Phelps video. The underwater ones in particular:

http://youtube.com/profile_videos?user=swimee

Is there any way to view videos from youtube frame by frame or in slow motion?

Lindsay great link!
I'll be trying that tonight.

TRYM_Swimmer
February 26th, 2007, 03:53 PM
From what I can make out, it seems they are beginning to roll to the opposite side of the arm that's touching the wall and then doing a sideways turn with a half twist. That could be dangerous; if you roll too far over, you will get DQ'd.

SwimStud
February 26th, 2007, 03:55 PM
From what I can make out, it seems they are beginning to roll to the opposite side of the arm that's touching the wall and then doing a sideways turn with a half twist. That could be dangerous; if you roll too far over, you will get DQ'd.

You just can't go past vertical prior to touch right?

swimr4life
February 26th, 2007, 04:13 PM
From what I can make out, it seems they are beginning to roll to the opposite side of the arm that's touching the wall and then doing a sideways turn with a half twist. That could be dangerous; if you roll too far over, you will get DQ'd.

Yes....I thought the same thing. you would definitely have to practice the timing on this turn a lot before doing it in a meet!

Jeff Commings
February 26th, 2007, 05:41 PM
I wish you all luck in learning the rollover turn.

islandsox
February 26th, 2007, 07:53 PM
Jeff,

Uh-oh, you make it sound gymnastically challenging!!

donna

imspoiled
February 26th, 2007, 08:25 PM
I agree with knelson. He just does it so quick, it looks like he crosses over. He just drops the shoulder on the side he turns towards.
The new turn requires some shoulder flexibility. It looks like the arm crosses over because during the last stroke into the wall you actually need to roll the other way as you touch the wall.

With a normal backstroke shoulder rotation, the shoulder doing the catch would drop as you rotate to take the stroke. Here, you stay on the side of the stroke you just finished, while reaching toward the wall. This allows you to start the forward turn while still appearing to be on the back to finish the back leg of the IM. As long as the reaching shoulder doesn't go past verticle, you have a legal finish for the back.

I've worked with kids on the turn, and when they get it, it's really good. It's also really bad when they don't. Super slow, and lots of water up the nose if you're not careful.

Personally, I like the "sideways" turn. Do the long touch with the high shoulder, then stay on the side underwater and push off turning toward the breast. It just feels less akward to me.

Dana

FlyQueen
February 26th, 2007, 11:36 PM
I could be wrong, but I think this is the turn I do, I'm such a fan of getting to that breaststroke as fast as possible :rolleyes:

However, it does take loosey goosey shoulders. I finish my back leg like I would a backstroke race, by diving down under water, then just do a backflip, perhaps easier with the gymnastics background because I learned it in about 2 seconds ...

The Fortress
February 27th, 2007, 09:44 AM
I haven't really worked on this yet, but I'm sure it would be valuable for the 100 IM. (I need air on my 200s.) I have always done an open turn at meets. I guess I could do the spin turn pretty easily. I've done that in practice. My biggest problem is not the flexibility, but for some odd reason, I really prefer hitting the wall with my left hand. I feel really awkward spinning when I hit the wall with my right hand. I don't even like flipping to my right side on a regular backstroke turn. I'd rather flip to the left before I turn. Does anyone else have this issue? It seems odd to me to swim a 100 IM and only use a spin or flip if I hit with my left hand ... Then the whole length of backstroke I'd be worried about which hand I'd be flipping with. I guess I should count strokes, but I'm not that consistent. Depends how the SDKs and all go. Maybe I'll put rollover turn on my to do list instead of breaststroke.

SwimStud
February 27th, 2007, 09:47 AM
With the time I need to turn around it matters not what hand I use. I'm sure I hear little horns going "Whoooooooooop, whooooooooooop!" eminating from inside me someplace. ;)

Jeff Commings
February 27th, 2007, 12:16 PM
Jeff,

Uh-oh, you make it sound gymnastically challenging!!

donna

Well, it requires strong muscles to contort the body in that fashion. Your shoulders need to be strong so the hand that touches can begin the flip. You need strong abs to execute the flip. You need good lungs to hold your breath for six to seven seconds.

I will say it took me three months to get the turn right. But I come from the era before the current backstroke turn. The old turn that we did is what 90 percent of the back to breast turn is about, so I just needed to work on breath control.

It is crucial for the 100 IM, but I would also say it's necessary for the 200. Though it's twice as long, it is still considered a sprint (four 50s).

unfortunate400imer
February 27th, 2007, 02:40 PM
I always did the pure back flip turn in my im's (except the 400im in season where you need all the air you can get).
So i just come in touch on my back, hand low on the wall, then bring my knees and feet up and over my head, effectively doing the back somersault.

with my feet planted i push off on my stomach for breast (and get to do the new sweet dolphin pulldown)

this backflip or the crossover (which i could never master) is less air though, but is much faster I believe.

In the end it all comes down to preference, and what you can do (both physically and mentally)

craiglll@yahoo.com
February 28th, 2007, 09:04 AM
I always did the pure back flip turn in my im's (except the 400im in season where you need all the air you can get).
So i just come in touch on my back, hand low on the wall, then bring my knees and feet up and over my head, effectively doing the back somersault.

with my feet planted i push off on my stomach for breast (and get to do the new sweet dolphin pulldown)

this backflip or the crossover (which i could never master) is less air though, but is much faster I believe.

In the end it all comes down to preference, and what you can do (both physically and mentally)

This is a lot easier. The other way requires really strong abs.

shark
February 28th, 2007, 10:56 AM
I wish you all luck in learning the rollover turn.

It is actually easier than you think, if you break it down.

A little history. The rollover turn originally was used for backstroke and was developed by Ray Bussard at the University of Tennessee back in the 70's. It's sole purpose was to beat John Naber, who was very tall and had a slow open turn. Bussard also developed the stand up backstroke start for the sole purpose of beating Naber. Eric Schwotzer, I believe was the only person to beat Naber in the 100 backstroke in a dual meet. The only way to beat Naber was to start and turn faster than him, which Bussard figured out how to do. The turn was one reason Lee Engstrand set the American record in the 200IM back in the day. The turn was so difficult to judge, that the committee got rid of it and allowed the backstroke turn to completely turn to the breast before initiating the turn. Most of the IM records that were set with the old turn were broken almost immediately, when the back turn and back to breast turn was allowed to completely roll over. I feel for Mook Rodenbaugh, who I saw go 1:48 in the 200 IM at the 1982 Ohio High School State Meet, without the roll over turn, in backstroke and transition. As I remember, it was broken the very first year the roll over turn was allowed.

The rollover turn is basically the same turn that you use for the backstroke turn now, except that you are touching the wall with your top arm as you are rolling over towards your breast. The rules state that you cannot past vertical towards the breast before you touch the wall. But you can go TO vertical. So, as you are rolling over, simply touch the wall halfway through your roll, continue your roll and press off on your side. The breaststroke rules state that you do not have to be horizontal as you leave the wall, only before you initiate the first pull.

Start slow. Practice touching the wall with your top arm as you are rotating towards your breast. Over and over again. Just touching the wall with your top arm. Stop. Do over. Just practice touching the wall with your top arm.

Next, practice rolling over after you touch the wall and do a regular flipturn. The way it works, is if you are entering the wall with your top arm being the right arm, as you flip you should be exiting the wall on your left side. Vicey versy if you are initiating the turn with your left arm.

By breaking it down and learning each step slowly, you can learn this turn in one practice. I have 10+unders that do it. Even if you do it slow at first, by using it day after day, it will begin to get really fast. Just like everythingelse. The tough part is getting yourself to slow down and learn it right and then use it even if it might be slow. Eventually it will become fast.
Good luck.

RayT
June 26th, 2007, 10:38 AM
Hi there, Shark.

could you please give more detailed description to the back to breast rollover turn?

or do you have some drills to help kids to learn it?

the most I want to know is what generate the power to initiate this flip turn after touching the wall. when kids are learning flip turn, they may be taught to do forward sommersault as a basic drill. and I just can not figure out what drill can help children know this rollover turn clearly.

may I have your expertise. thank you.

ande
June 26th, 2007, 02:14 PM
Both, but you have to stay on your back until you touch
For me: the flip over is much faster

Ande


This question has come up offline so I thought I'd post the question to find out the rule about this transitional turn between the IM's back and breast since I no longer do IMs.

Years ago, a flip turn between back and breast was allowed; it was not the new "freestyle" back turn, a swimmer could touch the wall in backstroke, and then flip over to enter the breastroke. Now I believe more swimmers are backstroking into the wall and open turning into the breaststroke portion of the IM.

For all of you Im'ers out there, what is now legal: both turns or does a swimmer have to do an "open turn"?

Donna

Dobbie
June 27th, 2007, 08:09 PM
The rollover turn is basically the same turn that you use for the backstroke turn now, except that you are touching the wall with your top arm as you are rolling over towards your breast

The same turn now being the open flip not the full flip.See video.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Iqowr4TlYY
Or as you touch with your lead arm roll the opposite way .see video.Hold bar manually for slow motion.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QaznkeTFcO0&mode=related&search=