Coach Encroachment

[The Fortress]

Wondering about USS coaching. If a swimmer is on a particular team, is it permissible or desirable for them to get private coaching/lessons elsewhere or attend clinics in addition to attending all team practices? Heard of a couple coaches recently who went ballistic when their swimmers took private lessons from another coach not affiliated with their team (not affiliated with any other team either, just a private coach). Is this not politically correct for USS swimmers?

[islandsox]

Fort: are you pulling my leg here? I suppose you are asking if this is legal or not and I am not part of USS Swimming, but until a person signs a contract (hey, you're the lawyer), can't they get info/help from any source they choose? I mean I wouldn't much care that my coach gets upset if I need to seek out my questions and/or get help from others, and if he/she were a coach who wanted the best for me and not delivering, that coach shouldn't get too upset other than the fact that that person would probably be embarrassed they weren't delivering what the swimmer needed. I am not, folks, chastisizing any coaches. All of mine were superb but served different purposes.

My gosh, in ice skating, they change coaches all the time due to "creative differences."

What's next if this is true?

[m2tall2]

I think a swimmer needs to do what they feel is best.

However, that being said, I do think it is a problem for swimmers to receive private coaching on the side...without prior knowledge of their current coach. If their team coach is decent, they are very used to and have a plan for that particular swimmer. That coach understands the subtlties of their stroke. They understand the whole person. They may have them mastering one aspect of a stroke even though the whole thing isn't pulled together yet as part of an individualized learning plan. Going to a camp for a week or seeing a private coach can undo or negate all that hard work.

I think there is also an issue of lack of communication. If a swimmer feels they need to have a stroke clinic, they should go to their coach first. I think most of these swimmers are just going out and signing up for things without working with the primary coach first.

Although, there are plenty of cases where a swimmer will get more out of a clinic or private coach because they are simply more talented than their primary team coach. I think when this is the case the swimmer needs to let their primary team coach know beforehand and ask how they can work it into the season (or off-season) plan. That way there can hopefully be some sort of unification of coaching methods and it will really benefit the swimmer rather than two different coaching approaches.

I'm sure a lot of the upset comes from things such as a swimmer contradicting their primary coach saying "coach so-and-so wants me to do it this way instead". At best it's an ego hit to the coach and the swimmer improves, at worst, the swimmer is destroying and working against their season plan, contradicting the coach, and not swimming as well as they could be.

Absolutely swimmers need to try things on and see what works for them, coaches, technique, teams, etc. But they also need to blend advice and not be contraditory. Not many kids or teenagers, or even many adults are good at remembering they don't know everything.

[jaegermeister]

I would think the coach would be happy you sneezed on someone else! :rofl:

Oh- it wasn't you? I agree with Islandsox. This is an ego thing, not a propriety issue. Not everyone has all of the answers. If a patient of mine wants another opinion, I don't get all huffy and demand they never come back.

What kind of fungus is growing in your nose, anyhow? That avatar practically looks wet.

[Warren]

If I were the coach I would be kind of insulted. If the swimmer came back with a different stroke technique than I teach Id be mad. Id be ok with it if it were a really good coach.

[jaegermeister]

I think there is also an issue of lack of communication.


Non-threatening communication can never hurt. If you can tell a coach what you need and what you're after, they shouldn't have an issue with it.

[islandsox]

Warren,

I see the point you are making but as a coach, that person must realize that they may not have all the answers even if they think they do and especially if they say they do. And how do you tell a coach is good or not? One of my best coaches was an unknown in the Coaches World, but her Masters Club had an awful lot of speed demons (sprinters and flyers). And she had a quality I respect of her today: she would actually encourage swimmers to go to this club or that club because she had taken them as far as she could and she could see their frustrations. And she was also an ex-Olympian.

Donna

[SWIMEMU]

Wondering about USS coaching. If a swimmer is on a particular team, is it permissible or desirable for them to get private coaching/lessons elsewhere or attend clinics in addition to attending all team practices? Heard of a couple coaches recently who went ballistic when their swimmers took private lessons from another coach not affiliated with their team (not affiliated with any other team either, just a private coach). Is this not politically correct for USS swimmers?

Fort, this is a great question you pose here. I think a lot of the programs in the DC area (I live there too) are overcrowded and I'm always concerned that my boys aren't getting the proper attention from the coach. I would probably let the coach know why I was taking my swimmer for some private work as a courtesy (maybe wake them up a bit too). If they felt it wasn't necessary then they need to address why I was looking.

One of their arguments may be that they don't want the kids to get conflicting information. But I would think they could be professional about it and not go ballistic.

I send my kids to a swim camp in the summer - their coach actually encourages a second point of view and change of scenery. Not a lot different.

By the way, let me know if you'd like to chat about the allergy thing offline. I'm a bit of a lurker and see that you train at GMU. I had to abandon GMU I think because of the bromine. I've had to start my "comeback" in the wonderful chlorine county rec pools - but I battled that for a long time.

[Warren]

Fortress, do your kids swim for the mason mokas?

[The Fortress]

Fortress, do your kids swim for the mason mokas?


These are all great thoughts guys. Thanks so much.

Warren:

No, another team. I know lots of kids on the Makos though, including my coaches' kids.

Everyone:

I haven't done this yet, and I love my kids' coaches. They're really fabulous. My worry is more what Doug was pointing out. I don't hover at practice, but I have seen some practices (a few times I'm swimming in a lap lane) and I have spoken at length to all the coaches on the team over time. So I know they focus on drills and technique as much as any USS team. But the programs are quite large here and it's hard to get a lot of individualized attention. And my main swimming kid is so outgoing that she's always hammering her coaches with questions about how to improve her technique. Which at least is a bit better than the naturally quieter kids that sit silently by or remain confused.

I am considering sending her to a swim camp, and I have solicited input, some of which I posted on post #2 of the swim camp thread. Doug, I'd love to hear where you send your kids, if you want to PM me. I don't think her coaches would object to a camp. But I imagine it would depend on the timing. If it's sort of between seasons and does not unduly interfere with training, I don't think, or at least hope, they would mind. Seems a little severe. I would certainly discuss it with them.

I think Michelle's point is valid. I think kids can get conflicting advice. I am curious about this topic because I have heard a lot of gossip lately about coaches being pissed about their swimmers receiving other coaching. It's the conflicting advice issue (e.g., how far is the outsweep on breaststroke?), but I agree with Warren that it may be a bit proprietary too. Obviously, if they are getting coached by someone from a rival team, that's a big no no. But that wasn't the case in the stories I heard. And the coach had excellent credentials.

But I do have to wonder. It seems like apart from the team practices a little individual attention wouldn't hurt. When my main swimming kid just swam summer league in the summer not LC, she always had private lessons. Now, it was with the coaches of her summer league team. But she needed the additional stroke assistance. Especially as a young kid.

I've spoken to former college swimmers about this issue, and they seemed to go to camps and have individual instruction.

Tom:

There is nothing in my nose. I have no sinus infection at the moment. I am going to take Peter Cruise's advice and abandon allergy shots for awhile. I think they're ruining my eyes. Or maybe Doug is right and it's the bromine.

On that score, when I missed practices for 6 weeks because of shoulder and sinus infection issues, when I went back my coach said, "Have you been swimming with another team?" Jeez. No, just at the county rec center on my own where I could doing vessel shaping .... School year thing.

[scyfreestyler]

Our USS team actually suggests some specific camps to the parents of swimmers...Stanford University is home to one that they speak very highly of.

EDIT: Our coaches do frown on parents giving race day stroke advice though. Apparently there have been some parents trying to make alterations to their kids stroke in a last ditch effort to make them faster. I am sure you can guess how that winds up.

I think a good coach should be pro anything that is going to make one of their athletes a better swimmer or a better person in general. If they fall short in this respect then something is wrong in my book.

[USMSarah]

A swim camp is a great way to get some extra attention/instruction without really "stepping" on the coaches toes. Before I headed to college, the coach told my parents to get me into a swim camp - and I went to Indiana University's camp that summer... I am so glad that I got to go - great instruction, you meet other swimmers you probably would have never met, you get video taped - it was such a great learning experience.

Don't feel bad about your kids getting some extra advice from other sources. A coach should be open minded... especially since they probably have a ton of swimmers per lane at practice every day - and you can't "reach" every single one of them ALL THE TIME.

If you are really worried about it, you could even ask the coach and see who he/she recommends for additional coaching... they may like that they have some input into it, who knows.

[FlyQueen]

As a former gymnastics coach, I know some of the team coaches hated when kids saught out outside instruction others could care less. I would just tell the coach what was going on. Say that the rude hormonal one wants some one on one instruction, that you realize that they cannot provide that during team practice and that you are going to have her take a private lesson (or 50). That way the coach is in the loop and you aren't sneaking around.

Interestingly enough in the district I am in we CANNOT tutor the kids in our own class, but the teachers freely share info with other teachers tutoring their kids. Everyone should act in the best interests of their kids, but that doesn't always happen. Feelings do get hurt, and I think that is where the anger would come from.

[swimshark]

I swim with OCCS (Fort, you'll know this team) and I can see the coaches not being happy if a swimmer goes to private lessons with out them knowing first. I think if they are told ahead of time and it's discussed in the open, they would be fine. OCCS knows I swim with the masters team occasionally and that masters coach gives more private time (thereare usually only 10 in the water so he can watch each of us). I can tell you that with OCCS (it's a kids team) we have 3-4 different coaches depending on meets and vacation, etc. One coach wants me to do "this" with my free but the main coach knows that my shoulder will hurt if I do that so I just oblige the one coach and hope that the main one will come back soon before my shoulder starts to hurt. So getting different opinions can be great, and I normally love it but it's also great to swim with a coach who knows you and your style.

With that being said, a swim camp sounds like a great option.

Alison

[The Fortress]

Alison:

You're brave to swim with a USS team. I modify workouts too much and don't like too much freestyle, so I personally would be a disaster with a USS coach.

My daughter has a lot of friends that swim with OCCS. Some great swimmers on that team.

Yes, I'm going to look into a swim camp for the summer. I've been told Stanford is great, Matt, by several folks, it's just a wee bit far ... although my daughter is obsessed with CA and would be happy to go. She loved it when we were there last August.

The one person I was considering for some private lessons is a coach with FAST, but she is also a masters swimmer and gives masters lessons and clinics. I've heard she's fabulous. The summer seems a little bit less restrictive than the school year when they're on the March to JOs and whatnot. Then, no one wants you messing with their kid. And they definitely don't like the parent as coach phenomenon! I know a parent who is always critiquing his daughter's times and micro-managing which events she swims. The kid often is scared to talk to daddy if she doesn't do a PB. Now, that guy needs to get a life.

But, in general, it does seem like all coaches coach differently and they all have their own style or preferences about what sets a kid should do and how they should swim a particular stroke.

Hey, are some coaches going to weigh in?

[poolraat]

My wife coaches the AG team here and every year she starts the summer season by having a coach from the U of Utah over to do a one week camp. She feels like she learns as much or more than the kids by doing this. She also encourages the kids to go to camps for additional stroke work. She has also developed relationships with other coaches in our LSC that she asks for advice and sends kids to for additional help. We are a small LSC and a pretty close group, and except for a few, there are no big ego issues.

BTW Regarding swim camps, my son and a friend went to Arizona State for a camp last year (had fun, learned a lot) and this year are going to Bush's camp at U of Arizona

[chaos]

Hey, are some coaches going to weigh in?

not touching this one.

[SwimStud]

I can only equate this to when the coaches ask for parents not to yell out instruction to their kids at sports events.
Maybe the coach told "their kid" to sit back and play the ball to the sides and not try to dribble upfield and take on the entire opposing team.

True, another coach may know what they're doing but perhaps they have differing views.

For swimming, maybe a good example is a Traditional coach, and the other a TI proponent. While I am certain they both respect the other coaching beliefs...trying to teach your method while your athlete keeps creating a pot pourri of both could frustrate both coaches.

That's my view on it. If it's taking offence because of ego, that's really childsh. If it's because of philosophy, then that should be respected and abided by, or politely rejected and replaced with the new coach and their methods.

[chlorini]

I don't have much to add, but I am an assistant coach with our team's 12 & under group so I can throw in that perspective. We have had this happen before. I don't mind if kids get outside coaching in most cases, but as people have said, it's helpful to know about it so you can work to integrate what they are working on and understand why they may be making (or attempting to make) stroke changes. The only time I think outside instruction is problematic is when the parents are more into it than the kids. If adding in outside coaching means that the kids are in the water more than once a day at as young an age as I coach, sometimes the kids start to get a little bit burned out. Some kids can pumped up from extra advice and time in the water, but for some, it's a little overwhelming. All of this makes me agree that in some cases, outside coaching is good and in some less desirable. They best way of handling it is to include both coaches in the communication loop so that they can support each other's work rather than undermine it.

Also, I think camps are a great way to boost motivation and have fun. And I'm all for them.

[The Fortress]

not touching this one.

Huh? :confused: I don't get it, Dave? Is this terribly controversial? I sure didn't mean it to be. I meant it to be a serious SR discussion. Should have labeled it SR/TP/NH.

[swimr4life]

That's my view on it. If it's taking offence because of ego, that's really childsh. If it's because of philosophy, then that should be respected and abided by, or politely rejected and replaced with the new coach and their methods.

I agree. I know sometimes coaches teach different techniques. Its only a problem if one coach perceives that what the other coach teaches is incorrect or will harm their swimmers. I know thats the only time I have a problem with it. If it helps my swimmers, then I'm all for it.

[quicksilver]

As a swim team parent, and more importantly a swimmer...I was lured onto the coaching staff at our YMCA in the hopes of sharing my swimming 'know how'.

Within a few short weeks...my Sunday stroke clinic grew to the point of being overloaded. Parents who previously watched their kids splash down the pool as what I could only describe as a controlled drowning were simply thrilled. Needless to say the rewards were a two way street, and I have endeavored to become one of the full time coaches.

Any swim parents should be encouraged to help out when possible...especially if they have experience in the water. Perhaps this might be a way to prevent the need for outside lessons. Coaching a large group can be challenging...and providing "one on one" is sometimes a difficult prospect in a busy pool.

[swim4me]

Fort, I sent my daughter to the U Texas swim camp for several summers. She loved it and learned a lot!!!! I myself am really enjoying the attention I get from my coach with Masters swimming. In my years as a summer and high school swimmer, I never got such stroke and technique attention. I was a pretty decent swimmer in school, and though I have only had one meet as a master, I can really tell the improvements I have made with this coach from the time trial he does with us. Drastic time drops even from the meet I swam in November.

As for coaches not liking their charges getting advice from other coaches, my opinion is that it is either an ego thing or they prefer their technique over that of another. This would have to be an individual assessment of each coach.

[nkfrench]

I'll agree 100% with Michelle's post.

Also, it is not nice to take a kid who isn't attending practice regularly and take them "outside the family" and drop a bunch of money on some so-called expert. First, make sure your kid is going to practice; then ask your own coach for some private lessons first and then ask about referrals.

Some large swim camps may trumpet the famous college coach's name, but the workouts will be run by his college swimmers who may have no previous experience coaching.

[hofffam]

I think many USS coaches are mediocre. And many USS programs are elitist groups that ignore solid but unspectacularl swimmers. Yet you might have your child there because of location or practice times.

In that case I think it is perfectly OK to seek out additional coaching. My kids swim for a fine team, with great team chemistry, etc. But the head coach cannot coach breastroke worth a damn. She just doesn't know how to teach the many fine points of modern breaststroke. So we occasionally have private coaching from a former club coach who is particularly good at breaststroke.

Swim camps are an entirely different thing to me. First - they are an adventure for the kids. They swim with a much different group of kids. And often with NCAA coaches. My kids have been to Texas A&M's camp twice each and not only do they enjoy it - they come back with improvements. Part of it is because they get "talk time" where the coaches sit them down and explain things. And they get video taped.

I think it would shock many how little the typical USS coach knows. They coach the way they were coached. They don't understand lactic threshold. They don't understand physiology. And they suck at communication.