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SwimStud
May 3rd, 2007, 02:37 PM
here you go

Dude. the MLS is not that good. The MLS pays older players to come here and beef up the star attraction. Beckham is 32 and done in international football. He's still good he just isn't what he was.
The US guys play in Europe because they need top flight football to have a good National squad and equal what the women here can do.

The World Cup is a lottery, you also finished dead last in the World Cup 1998 with much the same squad and manager, and 31/32 in 2006. US are improving as a national team within the world game. WC results are a handful of games. I have nothing against the US--but don't spout rubbish.

1998 http://www.rdasilva.demon.co.uk/football/wc/wc1998.html scroll to bottom
2002 http://www.rdasilva.demon.co.uk/football/wc/wc2002.html scroll to bottom
2006 http://www.rdasilva.demon.co.uk/football/wc/wc2006.html scroll to bottom

meldyck
May 3rd, 2007, 05:31 PM
I more or less agree with Rich regarding US soccer. One prime example is Landon Donovan. He insists on playing in the MLS where he can run rings around the competition. He hasn't been able to make it in Europe because it's way outside his comfort zone. That's too bad for US soccer because both he and the team would improve if he had the guts to fight his way through his demons.

Having lived in Germany, watched many of their matches and coached for 10 years in the US it's clear to me that the MLS just doesn't offer the right level of competition for US men. Too bad we couldn't get Klinsmann as the national team coach.

However, I might generalize the soccer problem (pardon me, English football problem) - lack of competitiveness - to one of English-speaking countries in general. When was the last time an English-speaking country mounted a serious threat in the World Cup arena? Granted it was in my lifetime but that is pretty long ago and far away.

newmastersswimmer
May 3rd, 2007, 06:22 PM
here you go

Dude. the MLS is not that good. The MLS pays older players to come here and beef up the star attraction. Beckham is 32 and done in international football. He's still good he just isn't what he was.
The US guys play in Europe because they need top flight football to have a good National squad and equal what the women here can do.

The World Cup is a lottery, you also finished dead last in the World Cup 1998 with much the same squad and manager, and 31/32 in 2006. US are improving as a national team within the world game. WC results are a handful of games. I have nothing against the US--but don't spout rubbish.

1998 http://www.rdasilva.demon.co.uk/football/wc/wc1998.html scroll to bottom
2002 http://www.rdasilva.demon.co.uk/football/wc/wc2002.html scroll to bottom
2006 http://www.rdasilva.demon.co.uk/football/wc/wc2006.html scroll to bottom


We had a different manager in 1998 than we did in 2002 and 2006....Bruce Arena was the manager in the last two world cups....We were ranked 9th overall in statistics in 2002 (according to your second link there Rich). And in 2006 we tied Italy in the first round...and that was playing a man down most of the game....And we were massively robbed in our final game of the first round which cost us the opportunity to play in the second round.....So we were much better than the stats showed in this last World Cup IMO!! What about the comments made by Franz Beckenbauer in 2002? You can't simply ignore that now can you??....and keep in mind we had a very tough group to contend with in 2002...We beat a very tough Portugal team and tied Korea (and led most of the way in the Korea game) in the first round....Then we beat Mexico 2 nil in the opening game of the second round to make it to the quarter finals.....and then barely lost to Germany in a game that the US dominated for the most part....

As for the MLS: Yes the MLS is not quite up to par with the premier European Leagues....BUT the MLS doesn't offer anywhere near the big bucks that the European Leagues do.....So how could they compete really? There are very good players in the MLS though Rich...common! Taylor Twellman, Landon Donovan, Carlos Ruiz (who is as good as most top level European stars IMO!!), Freddie Adu.....Remember that guy from Bolivia that use to play for D.C. United named Marco Etcheverry? ....Do you remember that guy from Columbia back in the late 90's named Carlos Valderama? (He was the Louis Figgo of his time)....and he played in the MLS during the height of his career. Some of these guys are (or were when they played) really good players....The Chicago fire had some really good Polish players a few years back too....There aren't as many superstars in the MLS as there are in the European Leagues...i.e. the depth is not there yet (but the money thing is the real problem there IMO)...BUT the top 10-15 players or so from the MLS are on the same level (more or less) as many of the top players in the European Leagues IMO. Hopefully the MLS will get better....but there are obvious obstacles as you and Mel pointed out....and in addition to what Mel said, there isn't near as much money available to recruit and pay top players in the MLS (Did I mention that point enough now LOL!!)

Bork

SwimStud
May 3rd, 2007, 08:59 PM
I'm changing this post.

Beckham is not the player he once was--I am not the player I was. You are not the swimmer you were. To argue against aging is silly.
The US did not go "further" than England in 2002.
They both exited at 1/4 final stage. As shown by the statisics.

newmastersswimmer
May 3rd, 2007, 10:25 PM
I'm changing this post.

Beckham is not the player he once was--I am not the player I was. You are not the swimmer you were. To argue against aging is silly.
The US did not go "further" than England in 2002.
They both exited at 1/4 final stage. As shown by the statisics.

What do you think about Beckenbauer's praising comments about the US team in 2002 though?.....You never commented on that one I noticed?

I hope your not mad at me though b/c I think the US team was better than you thought they were.....Portugal was a favorite to win it all in 2002 and the US knocked them out....Mexico was ranked in the top 5 or 6 in the world and the US handled them pretty well also. It would be impossible to say which national team was better in that world cup (between the English and the Americans)....but to automatically assume that the English side was better simply b/c they are English would be a bit illogical don't you think? You got to give that US team some props now Rich cmmon! It wasn't just a fluke in other words....they really were that good....Yes the Americans were as good as any European team in that particular World Cup and its hard for an Englishman like yourself to come to grips with that I understand.....I guess we should just drop this though b/c neither of us is prepared to budge on this....remember my slavic ancestory now too LOL!
Have a cold one on me o.k. bud! :drink: :drink: No hard feelings I hope! (I know how the English get about futbol now..LOL!)

Bork

SwimStud
May 3rd, 2007, 10:44 PM
Don't patronise me Jim. If you think I make my assesment on US soccer based on my being English you're misjudging me, and offending me in the process.

I've given the US national team props. I have merely said your league here isn't as good as Europe. Also that Beckham is past prime, and now chasing the $ because he won't be playing for England anymore, so there's no risk in a transatlantic move.

Valderama was 35 when he played in the US in 1996--past prime for soccer players. Norman Whiteside's career ended at 26 because of wear and tear on his knees.

This is a pointless discussion. I could go on and make more points to add weight to my view but I refuse to discuss it anymore www.soccernet.com (http://www.soccernet.com) has forums for this stuff.

newmastersswimmer
May 3rd, 2007, 11:33 PM
Don't patronise me Jim. If you think I make my assesment on US soccer based on my being English you're misjudging me, and offending me in the process.

I've given the US national team props. I have merely said your league here isn't as good as Europe. Also that Beckham is past prime, and now chasing the $ because he won't be playing for England anymore, so there's no risk in a transatlantic move.

Valderama was 35 when he played in the US in 1996--past prime for soccer players. Norman Whiteside's career ended at 26 because of wear and tear on his knees.

This is a pointless discussion. I could go on and make more points to add weight to my view but I refuse to discuss it anymore www.soccernet.com (http://www.soccernet.com) has forums for this stuff.

Why are you pointing to another forum when you started this thread and titled it "Soccer Info For Borky"....Now you are pinning this discussion on me? My claim is that the US team in 2002 was just as good as the English team....and there seems to be many others who feel the same way as I do....Including Franz Beckenbauer. I don't understand why you're getting angry now. How was I patronizing you? I made a comment that the English get a bit riled up over soccer in general....and they typically don't like giving the Americans thier due props in general....If that is patronizing then how about your comment on my slavic ancestory then? I'm really sorry if you took offense to my arguements or comments in any way Rich....but I really don't think I said anything that would warrant this reaction from you.

Bork

SwimStud
May 4th, 2007, 08:09 AM
You brough up the issu in the Amanda Beard Thread I moved it to point out that the US did not go further.

You first started with that, incorrect statement which I ignored several time before now b/c I didn't want to start a debate on football.

My point was about Beckham in a marketing vein, and that MLS is not up to the level of any European league on techinical play at this point in time.

You seemed to disagree with me on the majority of soccer players being past their prime at age 35...some hang in a bit longer. Beckham is not what he was, but he is still good and good for the MLS in what he can bring.

The reason I neer wanted to go into this is because of US vs UK BS that can get whipped up real easy and that leaves me at a disadvantage and in a position to be painted in a bad light to folks here in a US dominated forum..

Patronising is when you stir up (goading over US teams beating Arsenal--they're not my club i don't care) a topic then blame it on some imaginary "national" characteristic of mine. All I ever said was Beckham iis past his best but good enough for MLS. If you really think MLS is as good as top flight football in Europe, I don't know how I can change your opinion. I tried to illustrate by showing you that it was aging players signing. Not young superstars...not yet at least.

This wasn't ribbing about stupid stereotypes...but if you got offended from something I said about Slavic personality traits I'm sorry.

That said I'm done with this and closing the thread. Jim.