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View Full Version : Major LCM Woes! - Over One Minute in some events!



m2tall2
July 16th, 2007, 11:37 AM
This past weekend I went to my first LCM meet as a masterís swimmer. I trained consistently up to it (with a mini-taper), knew my times in practice, and figured what I might expect to go swimming LCM. Well, the results were baffling! All my times converted to SCY as a time slower than I have ever gone in a Masterís meet, EVER! Even the one I went to 3 weeks after coming back to swimming to see what I could do! And not by a little, these were 10 second to over one minute additions AFTER being converted to SCY! I will often hit or beat most of these times in a practice coming off the wall. I had a coach watching and my form looked good. On Saturday I was very hungry (I thought being a very large mixed USA/USMS meet there would be concessions & I thought I would treat myself rather than pack a bag. But there were no concessions & It was a good distance to go and find food.), which could account for a lot that day, but on Sunday I felt really good & was well rested. My splits also showed consistency, there was no indication of me dying. In the water (except the 100 breast), I felt right on. Iím in my mid 20ís: far too young for it to be an age thing.

Do others experience these unusually large time drains at their first LCM meet? Iím trying to figure out what went wrong, or if it was just a fluke.

Sorry for the long post but I hope maybe others have experienced this as well and provide advice about what they did to get through it. Iíll post my results below.

Thanks!

Saturday: 100 LCM Breastroke:
Usual time over the past 4 months 1:26 to 1:28. My practice times have shown improvement indicating I might be getting faster.
Result: 1:46.64 LCM Conversion to SCY 1:33
Difference: Same as a fast practice time off the wall. 6-8 seconds slower than usual when converted to SCY.

Saturday: 400 LCM Free:
I finish a 500 free from the wall in practice at about 6:40. This winter I comfortably did a 400 SCM in about 6:05. Iíve swam this event a few times with good results and had a plan. I havenít swam it in a meet in a while but I have been practicing this event.
Result: 7:06 LCM Conversion to 500 SCY: 7:56.81
Difference: 1:16 SLOWER THAN PRACTICE!!!! 54 seconds slower than my most recent 400 SCM!


Sunday: 200 LCM IM: Result: 3:45 Conversion: 3:17 SCY. Last meet this spring 2:58 SCY.
I do about 3:20 in practice.
Difference: 19 seconds

Sunday: 200 LCM Breast:
This was really hard for me to swallow since it was the event I practiced for.
Typical Time in practice: 3:25-3:30 SCM
Average time in meets over past 4 months. 3:09-3:13
Result: 3:55 LCM Conversion: 3:27 SCY. Same as a practice time from wall. 18-24 seconds slower than normal SCY meet times.

SwimStud
July 16th, 2007, 11:46 AM
Michelle

Don't panic, I had a similar experience I went 3:35 in my LCM 200 Saturday. Converted to a 3:07. My PB is 2:56.

Did you get much LCM lap time in before when you were training?
I didn't I got maybe 3 visits. Without the extra pushes it slows you down...even though you are swimming pretty fast...you loose 4 boosts off the turns. Don't take those converters so precisely. They don't account for variance in strengths and weakness in individuals or training facilities. I was doing SCY 75s and 125's in training...and I still felt like I died.

Was it outdoors and sunny? Sunny loungey feeling crept into many swimmers at my meet. Hunger could be a factor, too. Don't underestimate it. I have always eaten eggs for breakfast before meets, or football games...I also take a "boost" to chug or sip depending of my swim schedule.

How have your studies been going? Taxing you out or anything? There could be lots of reasons for a let down. Don't be so harsh on yourself either.

Rich

knelson
July 16th, 2007, 11:57 AM
Did you get much LCM lap time in before when you were training?

I wonder this, too. It isn't totally clear from Michelle's post whether she's been training LC or not. If not, that could be a big factor. Even if you feel you're in good shape short course, going to long course is a big transition.

m2tall2
July 16th, 2007, 12:00 PM
I'm not really being harsh on myself. I'm just baffled! I'm sure the next time I jump in SCY I'll do just fine. 5-6 Seconds on a 100, it's an off day. 20 seconds on a 200? How could my body turn on me when it felt good?
I'm wondering if its some kind of strange LCM initiation.

I might be able to take from this that my pushoffs and pullouts ROCK, though. :)

But it doesn't make me feel more secure for my open water event in two weeks.

m2tall2
July 16th, 2007, 12:02 PM
I haven't had any access to an LCM pool. So this weekend was the first time out.

Although, I have heard for breaststrokers, that training in SCY is a good thing.

knelson
July 16th, 2007, 12:07 PM
Although, I have heard for breaststrokers, that training in SCY is a good thing.

I think breast is probably affected by long course versus short course the most of any stroke. Short course breast is a lot of underwater swimming. Long course breast is a lot of stroking! Imagine you get 10 yards off each wall on your pullout. In a 100 short course you're swimming on the surface for only 60 yards. For a long course 100 you're on the surface for more than 80 yards!

SwimStud
July 16th, 2007, 12:09 PM
I haven't had any access to an LCM pool. So this weekend was the first time out.

Although, I have heard for breaststrokers, that training in SCY is a good thing.

I think it's a big factor Michelle...that loss of push off really starts to add up. Then you have the whole rhythm thing Xpulls turn, pullout, Xpulls, turn pullout. That changes. My first 50LCM in training I was dying: looking for the flags and everything. It was beweildering, not just a mental thing that I tried to block out. (though that helped).

Think of it in terms of a sudden change to a golf swing. Your 200 SCY (and anyother race) has a certain tempo that has to change when you switch pool distances. LCM training is probably the best bet to get used to it. I'm still trying to cope too heheh.

Jeff Commings
July 16th, 2007, 12:13 PM
You can do well in LCM meets even if you only train SCY. You just have to adjust workouts accordingly.

If you are doing a set of 100s, add a 25 and do 125s. For 200s, do 250s.

It also appears you might not have tapered well. Saying you did a mini-taper means you just cut back a little.

That said, if you don't have access to a LCM pool, your first day at the meet might suffer, but your body should adjust after a while.

And yes, breaststroke is the most affected stroke when switching courses. Though the other three strokes are also difficult if you are an underwater dolphin kicker, swimming half the race underwater.

Good luck on your second LCM meet.

FlyQueen
July 16th, 2007, 12:18 PM
How are your turns? I'd guess you have pretty good turns. Don't worry about the conversion times - you now have new PBs in each events you swam - some peoples' times convert from LCM to SCY faster, others around the same, and some slower. It doesn't really mean much - don't put too much weight on it.

Blackbeard's Peg
July 16th, 2007, 12:18 PM
Michelle - The stud hit it head on with the converter reliability and training facilities.

I rarely look at converting the 400 to a 500 - the conversion factors on that one are way wacky! I treat them as separate races and don't even consider how they affect each other.

To the latter: if you're not training LCM, and it sounds like you're not, any one's first time racing that course should be an eye-opening experience. Even if you've got the yardage under your belt, swimming 50M straight is always going to be tough the first time out.

There is no substitute for that extra momentum lost with the lack of turns. Think of it like this: every time you push off a wall, that is the fastest you'll be all length. You get to build off that speed and momentum with a good breakout and first few strokes, but you get incrementally slower with the effect of your body drag. In SC, your speed decreases until you hit the 25 mark, and then you get to start over. In LC, you start your 2nd 25m at the diminished speed you finished that first 25, and then keep losing speed. Like compounding interest, the loss of momentum going into a LC turn will translate into lower momentum on the next length, and so on.

I think most folks will tell you LCM is a whole different beast than SCM and SCY. It involves a lot of strategery, and you've pretty much got to build your speed throughout each 50. Now that you've got your first LCM meet under your belt, don't let it get you down. Keep training hard, and work on building your strength and your ability to build over distances. It sounds like you're up for the challenge! Git-r-Done!

scyfreestyler
July 16th, 2007, 01:29 PM
I think most folks will tell you LCM is a whole different beast than SCM and SCY. It involves a lot of strategery,

Right on per my first experience with a LC meet last weekend. Swam my first 200 Free at this meet and it took me to school. Anyhow, you just have to keep going back and trying again and again (at least that is what I have been telling myself). Hard work and determination in practice will pay dividends at any meet, LC or otherwise.

Paul Smith
July 16th, 2007, 01:38 PM
LCM vs SCY is apples to oranges....the only thing they really share in common is that water is involved. SCY is starts and turns....LCM is "swimming".

This is especially true in recent years where SDK has so taken over SCY "swimming".....to the point that you quite often see incredible college swimmers never succeed at the same level in International meets.

My own thoughts are toss out any "convertor" you may be using....

Also....Jeff is correct....you can prep for a LCM swimming only SCY as he details.....I tend to do fewer SDK in training and really focus on tempo and lengthing of my stroke.

rtodd
July 16th, 2007, 04:23 PM
I did my first LCM meet on Sunday as well. Previously I have done about six SCY meets so this is my first experience LCM.

Two months ago I did a 500 SCY in 7:40. Yesterday I did the 400 LCM in 6:19. So I was 37 sec better than the converter predicted going to LCM. Might make sense since I have poor turns and streamline with no SDK. I did this as a warm up and I'm sure I could have gone under six. The conversion did not work here.

In the 50 free, I was very dissapointed in going 31.5. The conversion had me going a second faster. The conversion failed again, but in the other direction.

I don't understand your results. I don't think an empty stomach is an issue.
Do you feel you went out too slow and left alot on the table? You should feel a bit ill after a strong 400. Was that the case?

knelson
July 16th, 2007, 05:04 PM
The conversion did not work here.

The conversion didn't work because you went much, much faster in your recent 400 swim. Your 7:40 500 free works out to a pace of 1:32 per 100. That converts to about a 1:45/100 long course. Put together four of those and you get 7:00. Since you swam a 6:19 I'd say you blew the doors off your previous 500 free swim!

indyswimbag
July 16th, 2007, 05:15 PM
M2tall2-

Don't take the LCM thing too personal...I haven't had a chance to look at a LCM pool this summer and have been training scy..doing the whole 125 instead of 100 etc....I haven't had a LCM meet in 5yrs prior to the one on June 10th...I try to look at my times as best times for the course rather than converting my times because my scy times were always faster than my converted times.

In masters I look at it as having 3 sets of personal best times and every 5 years I get to have all new personal bests....makes it a lot less irritating when I see a time that I don't like....also I agree with everyone else a breaststroker I have to say that even though I like LCM for distance free, I HATE IT:shakeshead: for breaststroke because I live for my pullouts.

Don't be so hard on yourself...looks to me like you did fine.

gull
July 16th, 2007, 06:05 PM
I have been training LCM five days/week, but on Saturdays I swim scm. For me the difference between the two is striking. Not only is my pace per 100 at least 4 seconds faster swimming scm, but I also get less fatigued (200 repeats are much easier swimming scm regardless of the interval).

m2tall2
July 17th, 2007, 08:09 AM
Thanks everyone, it makes me feel more confident that I was probably about right; I just didn't give myself time to make the LCM adjustment.

And as someone else mentioned, everything felt right, I was appropriately dead and unable to move after the 400 Free and 200 Breast. The last lengths were like moving lead weights. They felt the same as other good SCY swims.

What I did do is decide to go jump in a pond yesterday for the first time (since like I said, this had me worried about my first open water race in a couple weeks). I cruised the half mile across Walden Pond in 14 minutes (on the way back), which for taking it easy as a practice just to get used to it I thought was awesome compared with my other lack of turn times. And I was going against the wind in that direction. Too bad I couldn't reswim that 400 LCM this weekend. I think I would be sure to go happily under 7 minutes. On the way out, I did some breastroke and it felt wonderful - but I think it did have a slightly different grove to it than I do in the pool.

Next time, I'll do some pond training twice a week in prep for doing LCM. (since that is what I have access to) Thank goodness long course is in the summer!

NotVeryFast
July 17th, 2007, 08:55 AM
I find LCM incredibly tough, the only time I swim it is at 2 meets per year. I did one earlier this year and had done an SCM 400 free in 4:40 from a push off in training 3 days before the meet. I figured that with a bodysuit and the adrenaline of a race I'd be well under 4:50, even LCM, but no, I felt like I died horribly and it took me 4:52.

The worst LCM event for me is backstroke, you can't tell how far down the pool you are and the lengths seem to last for ever!

geochuck
July 17th, 2007, 09:39 AM
Why so much concern about times. I would be more concerned with where I finished. 1st or 2nd, was I close, did I do my best (I did not say try to do my best).

I can remember waiting to be called for the next event, the meets to long - I had my glucose pills and later lucozade for nourishment. Do you think that is why I am now a diabetic?

SwimStud
July 17th, 2007, 09:41 AM
Why so much concern about times. I would be more concerned with where I finished. 1st or 2nd, was I close, did I do my best (I did not say try to do my best).

I can remember waiting to be called for the next event, the meets to long - I had my glucose pills and later lucozade for nourishment. Do you think that is why I am now a diabetic?

Lucozade rocks!!! I miss that stuff over here...

osterber
July 17th, 2007, 10:00 AM
Yes - the switch from SCY to LCM is muuuuuch more than just a time conversion. The events are completely different. The conversion will be completely different for different people.

I'm lucky to have access to LCM training. When we start doing LCM workouts in late spring, it is an absolute bear to get used to it. It takes about 3-4 weeks before I feel like I'm remotely comfy with LCM swimming.

As a personal example... when swimming freestyle, I get around 7-8 yards of underwater/breakout on every turn. In a SCY pool, that means I'm underwater 30% of the time and on the surface 70% of the time. In a LCM pool, that means I'm underwater 15% of the time and on the surface 85% of the time. That's a huge difference. It changes oxygen consumption, use of legs on the walls, stress on your shoulders and arms, etc.

-Rick

FlyQueen
July 17th, 2007, 10:26 AM
So what does it say about me and my weakness and strengths that according to the conversion calculator my times were pretty much dead on. Mind you I swim 50s and 100s but my LCM meet times converted were almost exactly what I did inseason SCY.

SwimStud
July 17th, 2007, 10:40 AM
So what does it say about me and my weakness and strengths that according to the conversion calculator my times were pretty much dead on. Mind you I swim 50s and 100s but my LCM meet times converted were almost exactly what I did inseason SCY.

It means you're a superior athlete in consistency and can perform well. That or HGH and Steroid abuse is rampant LOL :thhbbb:

knelson
July 17th, 2007, 10:45 AM
The conversions are always very close for me, also.

SwimStud
July 17th, 2007, 10:48 AM
The conversions are always very close for me, also.
My 50 BR and FR were within a second. The 200 proved a let down. I'm untested at 100.

Allen Stark
July 17th, 2007, 10:48 AM
I love LCM breaststroke,but as everyone says,LCM and SCY are totally different things.Michelle,just swim a few more LCMs and you will be able to see what YOUR conversions are.FlyQueen,it means your turns are statistically equivalent to the average the chart is using,neither good nor bad just interesting.

m2tall2
July 17th, 2007, 10:54 AM
I guess part of me was a little suprised because when I went from SCY to SCM, my times converted pretty much dead on. However, there are the same number of turns.

I need to find another LCM meet before the summer is over to see how I do with some no turn practice.

SwimStud
July 17th, 2007, 11:03 AM
I guess part of me was a little suprised because when I went from SCY to SCM, my times converted pretty much dead on. However, there are the same number of turns.

I need to find another LCM meet before the summer is over to see how I do with some no turn practice.

Zones is in Maryland.. :D

gull
July 17th, 2007, 11:03 AM
So what does it say about me and my weakness and strengths that according to the conversion calculator my times were pretty much dead on. Mind you I swim 50s and 100s but my LCM meet times converted were almost exactly what I did inseason SCY.

I think it means that you are a very good swimmer. One of our coaches said that long course rewards good dps, and that technical flaws have a greater impact.

FlyQueen
July 17th, 2007, 11:51 AM
I think it means that you are a very good swimmer. One of our coaches said that long course rewards good dps, and that technical flaws have a greater impact.

That would be nice ... I don't have great dps though. I have heard LCM is for swimmers and SCY for turners - I can honestly say I don't miss all the extra turns.

islandsox
July 17th, 2007, 01:50 PM
Michelle, your experience with LC sounds like my first one, too. I was flabbergasted at how utterly trashed I got racing LCM. And that was at a time I only did the 50,100, and 200 back, no free at all. I agree with others here, LC and SC are apples and oranges, and I found that I really missed not having those turns. And I found I got extremely winded really fast.

But when I was able to train LCM, even once or twice a week, things improved and now LC is my favorite because I am swimming and not turning. I now only do open water because of where I lived, but training LC when I had the chance, allowed me the opportunity to add the 800m free to my backstroke. I fell in love with more LD free and have been doing it ever since.

You're right, get into that pond if you don't have a LC pool, it'll help. It's a different training ground swimming LC.

Swimmy
July 17th, 2007, 01:54 PM
Zones is in Maryland.. :D

Stud Muffin,
Are you coming down for Zones?
Swimmy :)

SwimStud
July 17th, 2007, 02:02 PM
Stud Muffin,
Are you coming down for Zones?
Swimmy :)

ROAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADTRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIP!!

I figure you can all have a laugh on me for the 50 Fly....

Swimmy
July 17th, 2007, 02:23 PM
I will have to get my pom poms out of storage. I will be there to cheer you on! Party!

scyfreestyler
July 17th, 2007, 02:40 PM
I will have to get my pom poms out of storage. I will be there to cheer you on! Party!


Awwwwww!

It is an incredible feeling to have your teammates cheering you on, even before you dive from the blocks. Can't help but smile. :groovy:

Swimmy
July 17th, 2007, 02:54 PM
Awwwwww!

It is an incredible feeling to have your teammates cheering you on, even before you dive from the blocks. Can't help but smile. :groovy:

:cheerleader:
Actually Stud Muffin is not on my team, so I may have to actually cheer for him quietly. Muppet may not like if I cheer for the opposing team....
Swimmy
:cheerleader:

scyfreestyler
July 17th, 2007, 03:31 PM
:cheerleader:
Actually Stud Muffin is not on my team, so I may have to actually cheer for him quietly. Muppet may not like if I cheer for the opposing team....
Swimmy
:cheerleader:

He'll get over it. :)

FlyQueen
July 17th, 2007, 03:43 PM
:cheerleader:
Actually Stud Muffin is not on my team, so I may have to actually cheer for him quietly. Muppet may not like if I cheer for the opposing team....
Swimmy
:cheerleader:

Yeah Muppet is can be a jerk like that ...:shakeshead:

Blackbeard's Peg
July 17th, 2007, 03:53 PM
Yeah Muppet is can be a jerk like that ...:shakeshead:
must be all that breaststroke i have been swimming. :whiteflag:

FlyQueen
July 17th, 2007, 03:55 PM
That would make me crabby. Fortunately I am not allowed to swim (well kick) any breaststroke right now. :applaud:

SwimStud
July 17th, 2007, 06:12 PM
I'm just looking to forward to Swimmy getting her pom-poms out just for me!
:applaud:

And now I feel guilty for sidetracking m2's thread!

Swimmy
July 17th, 2007, 08:22 PM
I'm just looking to forward to Swimmy getting her pom-poms out just for me!
:applaud:

And now I feel guilty for sidetracking m2's thread!

:cheerleader:
Just for you, Luv!
Swimmy
:cheerleader: