PDA

View Full Version : Dara Torres-Amazing



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Shaman
August 1st, 2007, 07:05 PM
Dara just one the national title in the 100M Freestyle in 54.4 at the ripe old age of 40. Simply Incredible. :applaud: :woot:

If that's not inspiring I don't know what is.

reachhigher
August 1st, 2007, 07:24 PM
Agreed. She is the reason I'm back in the water and training. If she can do it at 40 after having a child, then why should I be lying around making excuses for why I can't swim at 21? :)

Sam Perry
August 1st, 2007, 08:10 PM
What's interesting, is that every swimmer except for one in that final weren't even born the first time she made the Olympic Team in 1984. Only 4 of the 24 in ALL finals heats were alive. How's that for some perspective?

Donna
August 1st, 2007, 08:44 PM
She is an insipriation for all of us.
:banana::cheerleader::party2::wine:

A.K.
August 1st, 2007, 08:50 PM
Rock On !!!
:cane: :bolt:

Mia Kopela
August 1st, 2007, 09:13 PM
She is an insipriation for all of us.
:banana::cheerleader::party2::wine:
Or maybe not, if it turns out she's doping:
http://canuckswimmer.blogspot.com/2007/07/i-came-to-praise-torres-but-intend-to.html
http://canuckswimmer.blogspot.com/2007/07/i-came-to-praise-torres-but-intend-to_27.html
http://canuckswimmer.blogspot.com/2007/07/i-came-to-praise-torres-but-intend-to_28.html

cowsvils
August 1st, 2007, 09:45 PM
If someone went there I will too. Doping was the first thought that came to my mind after actually considering the situation. Maybe i'm a cynic, maybe watching le tour has put it into my mind that everyone is doping, maybe Barry Bonds made me see doping behind every great performance, or maybe she actually is doping. Who knows.

tjburk
August 1st, 2007, 09:46 PM
I started reading and couldn't get past the first page of nonsense! According to what I could get out of it....it's all speculation.....not an ounce of data to support any of his assumptions.

Along with Barry Bonds....I'll believe in them until some facts come in proving they are guilty!

Swim on Dara......you are truly an inspiration to us all!!!!

And just to add a little bit on the Bonds situation......if you don't have proof, and I don't mean a pissed off girlfriend or former employee that says they think he did, don't bother arguing.....If you're going to use Bonds as a reason for saying people are doping.....show me proof.

CreamPuff
August 1st, 2007, 09:52 PM
At 40 and swimming at the level that she's at. . . I'd still be IMPRESSED even if she were doping. Ain't no amount of rocket fuel gonna get me to that level.

When Scott the author of those three articles compared his back going out to childbirth, I simply. . . :rofl::rofl::lmao::lmao: Some lady sure got his panties in a wad.

tjburk
August 1st, 2007, 10:03 PM
Now that's funny Kristina!!!!!!:lmao::lmao::thhbbb:

smontanaro
August 1st, 2007, 10:14 PM
I think the strongest (circumstantial) argument against Dara doping is that she would likely to have been doing so while pregnant. I can't imagine any woman conciously endangering the health of her yet-to-be-born child that way.

Skip Montanaro

scyfreestyler
August 1st, 2007, 10:25 PM
Will there not be drug testing at this Nationals meet?

some_girl
August 1st, 2007, 10:28 PM
I can't believe anyone thinks she *isn't* on drugs to be honest. And yet I find the optimism charming.

The Fortress
August 1st, 2007, 10:31 PM
I think the strongest (circumstantial) argument against Dara doping is that she would likely to have been doing so while pregnant. I can't imagine any woman conciously endangering the health of her yet-to-be-born child that way.

Skip Montanaro

I dunno about that. Plenty of women smoking, drinking, taking drugs, eating crap and exposed to god knows what else during pregnancy. I'm sure she has ample supervision by physicians during practically every waking moment.

Who knows? I think the blogger marshaled some interesting theories, which I hope aren't true. (Except that bit about his back, as (S)he-Man so ably pointed out. Clueless male!) The bit about the comparative failure of Spitz's attempted comeback was interesting. Rocket fuel or not, it's still amazing swimming on her part. I just can't help but be a little cynical. And now I see that some_girl won't think I'm charming ...

As for drug testing at Nats, am I missing something, or don't drug cheats cycle off the drugs in time to avoid positive tests?

(Barry Bonds? There's solid evidence against him. Give it up! I wish he'd sit down.)

scyfreestyler
August 1st, 2007, 10:32 PM
I can't believe anyone thinks she *isn't* on drugs to be honest.

What makes you so certain?

resqme
August 1st, 2007, 10:32 PM
If you look at her career, I do not know how anyone could honestly say she is doping. She is just a drop dead sprinter - like Rich Abrahams, Gary Hall Jr. She has stayed in terrific shape throughout her life.

Just an amazing speciman!!

The Fortress
August 1st, 2007, 10:37 PM
If you look at her career, I do not know how anyone could honestly say she is doping. She is just a drop dead sprinter - like Rich Abrahams, Gary Hall Jr. She has stayed in terrific shape throughout her life.

Just an amazing speciman!!

No doubt she is amazingly talented.

Didn't she admit she took creatine? Are Olympic athletes permitted to take that? I thought not.

tjburk
August 1st, 2007, 10:37 PM
Fort....other than you saying there is evidence against him....where is the proof....show me some solid evidence that proves your point! Everybody says there is all this proof....show it to me.

scyfreestyler
August 1st, 2007, 10:45 PM
As for drug testing at Nats, am I missing something, or don't drug cheats cycle off the drugs in time to avoid positive tests?



I just assumed that similar to cycling, they do catch people using these substances. However, there is most likely some truth to your suggestion.

Jason Marsteller
August 1st, 2007, 10:51 PM
Fort....other than you saying there is evidence against him....where is the proof....show me some solid evidence that proves your point! Everybody says there is all this proof....show it to me.

If this is a statement about Barry Bonds, he admitted that he took the "clear" that came from Balco. This substance was later confirmed as a steroid. The only caveat is that he said he thought is was "flaxseed oil."

The proof is in the man's own words. He took it. Now, whether he took it knowingly or not, that we may never know.

The Fortress
August 1st, 2007, 10:56 PM
I just assumed that similar to cycling, they do catch people using these substances. However, there is most likely some truth to your suggestion.

Well, given what I've read about how careful Michael Phelps is about even accidental ingestion of some vitamin, you're probably right. If using drugs systematically, a swimmer would eventually get caught. I'm not sure, as a masters swimmer for awhile, how much Dara would have been tested. I don't mean to cast any aspersions. I really have no idea whatsoever. She is obviously a talented, athletic phenom. I'm only saying that I can understand why people are cynical. There have been rumblings for awhile. No doubt Dara is prepared for the public suspicion -- just like Amanda Beard was prepared for the Playboy fallout.

Tracy: I know you love Barry Bonds, but did you miss the Balco investigation? I agree with Sally Jenkins -- he should sit down.

tjburk
August 1st, 2007, 11:14 PM
Fort, I am a True Blue Dodger fan from LA....so that should tell you what I think of Barry and the Giants....on the note of what we are talking about: If Balco is proof why is he still not in Jail? Or banned from the game? I am still waiting for something that proves his guilt.......

Like Michael Vick.....on tape is pretty clear proof!

The Fortress
August 1st, 2007, 11:20 PM
Fort, I am a True Blue Dodger fan from LA....so that should tell you what I think of Barry and the Giants....on the note of what we are talking about: If Balco is proof why is he still not in Jail? Or banned from the game? I am still waiting for something that proves his guilt.......

Like Michael Vick.....on tape is pretty clear proof!

He's not banned from the game because baseball supported/ignored steroid use to ramp up attendance and public attention/adulation. Michael Vick ... I might be ill ... Blech. Ugh.

I'm a true blue New England Red Sox fan. :bouncing: I also, by geography, was forced to become a Twins fan during portions of my youth. I have possession of several homer hankies. (Except I was also saddened and disillusioned by Kirby Puckett. :shakeshead:)

ALM
August 1st, 2007, 11:21 PM
Or maybe not, if it turns out she's doping:
http://canuckswimmer.blogspot.com/2007/07/i-came-to-praise-torres-but-intend-to.html
http://canuckswimmer.blogspot.com/2007/07/i-came-to-praise-torres-but-intend-to_27.html
http://canuckswimmer.blogspot.com/2007/07/i-came-to-praise-torres-but-intend-to_28.html

If you read a little further into this guy's blog, you'll find out that he's entered in the USMS LC Nationals in The Woodlands...

--

cowsvils
August 1st, 2007, 11:22 PM
Meh, forgot to quote TJ, but this is in response to his comments
A. Because taking steroids with a doctors prescription (which I wouldn't be surprised if he had) isn't illegal
B. They are trying to bring perjury charges against him unless i'm mistaken
C. He isn't banned from the game because he never failed a major league drug test while the rules were in place.

Bonds is a lot like Rasmussen, there is very strong circumstantial evidence to say that he is doping, but there is nothing solid.

Allen Stark
August 1st, 2007, 11:38 PM
The circumstantial evidence against Bonds is overwhelming. Now that the international anti-doping committee is entertaining circumstantial evidence in its investigations it is likely he would be banned if he was an Olympian. In fact if he was an Olympian he would have potentially tested positive for his "unwitting" steroid use and be banned. MLB said steroids weren't OK but didn't test. He didn't test positive because they didn't test. Explain to me another way his head and feet could have continued to grow.:notworking:

scyfreestyler
August 1st, 2007, 11:53 PM
Don't forget the attitude.

phdude
August 2nd, 2007, 12:07 AM
The circumstantial evidence against Bonds is overwhelming. Now that the international anti-doping committee is entertaining circumstantial evidence in its investigations it is likely he would be banned if he was an Olympian. In fact if he was an Olympian he would have potentially tested positive for his "unwitting" steroid use and be banned. MLB said steroids weren't OK but didn't test. He didn't test positive because they didn't test. Explain to me another way his head and feet could have continued to grow.:notworking:

of course he was doing stuff, just like half of baseball. imo it's stupid to crucify bonds for just being a visible figurehead of an epidemic. IF he was an olympian doesn't really matter one iota-he's not, and he and every other player knew that and acted accordingly. baseball should just accept the 90's to early 00's as the steroid era, and test stringently from now on. just as many pitchers were juicing as hitters-why does the public only care about the hitters?
and comparing bonds to vick-come on! the guy might be a jerk to the media and self-centered, but if he was on the roids he just wanted to be better at his sport and profession. although his (supposed) methods may be morally decrepit, they have nothing on vick's barbaric, inhumane sideshow.

CreamPuff
August 2nd, 2007, 08:39 AM
I can't believe anyone thinks she *isn't* on drugs to be honest. And yet I find the optimism charming.

I find it even more *charming* (okay, humorous) to see Scott a grown accountant cry over (gasp!) there being a possibility of cheating in the world. :doh: Is he suggesting life is NOT fair?

But I particularly enjoy his acting as if he discovered the Theory of Relativity and the cure to world hunger which he must explain step by step to us intellectually challenged peons.

And why, in his eyes, is being a female cheater the second coming of Christ?

There's always a possibility of cheating. If Dara or any other athletes cheat, they will pay for it in countless ways regardless of whether or not they are caught.

FlyQueen
August 2nd, 2007, 09:01 AM
Call me charming, stupid, or naive but I really don't think she is doping. These allegations come out every time she makes a comeback, remember this is her second. Why is it so hard to believe that she could be doing this without doping? I have heard for forever that she is one of the most naturally talented swimmers of all time and has the best technique. As a girl that puts on muscle very easily I understand the change in appearance.

Rachel Komisarz also gets accused from time to time for doping. She’s ripped but she also is into body building. I’ll defend them both until I see actual evidence to the contrary. People are so cynical and quick to judge – she’s been insanely fast and talented since she was a kid. She’s been able to maintain her speed, which by the way I think we established as easier to hold onto than endurance. I know we previously discussed how masters swimmers seem to be able to be more competitive in sprints rather than distance events – age, time to train, physical changes – whatever.

Rock on Dara! I hope she wins the 50 free too and wins both events at trials. She is amazing. Instead of the criticism why don’t we all congratulate her.

Stillhere
August 2nd, 2007, 09:07 AM
In no way am I accusing Dara or cheating. My post is simply to point out the possibilities.

My mind disconnects when the reality that “no testing” is performed for those years she was retired. Essentially, she “could” have had her baby, and then began to get back in shape, and built her body back using hard work and the juice (or whatever she chose) and no one would know the difference. Then after her body had the opportunity to grow much stronger with the help of illegal substances, she could stop taking those substances and announce that she is “coming out of retirement” in her attempt to become the first woman swimmer to compete in five Olympic Games. All while testing again begins and she would be as clean as if she never took any illegal performance enhancing drugs.

My suggestion, whenever a world class athlete announces that he or she is going to retire from their sport, they must continue to be tested or never be allowed to return to that sport. These long, long retirements (exactly like Dara’s) leave way to much room for illegal performance enhancing drugs to be used without detection. Let’s face the facts, she is a very talented swimmer and has been for years. She hosts many television programs and commentates for many news organizations and “if” she were to become the first woman to compete in five Olympic Games, huge amounts of money from endorsements are involved. The loop holes and potential monetary gain are way too much for me to be comfortable with her swim last night.

aquageek
August 2nd, 2007, 09:44 AM
You can count on one hand the number of super elite athletes in their 40s. I can't think of an athlete competing at the highest level at this age without a cloud of suspicion. Certainly, no one in football or basketball and baseball has a lone example. There is a natural decline at that age and there are hundreds of examples of the greats falling off (Jordan, Barkley, Montana, Griffey Jr, Maddux, the list is endless).

I'm not making any sort of accusation but this type of performance puts her in a completely unique category.

aquageek
August 2nd, 2007, 09:47 AM
Bonds is a lot like Rasmussen, there is very strong circumstantial evidence to say that he is doping, but there is nothing solid.

Other than the fact he admitted to taking the "clear" and the "cream." Flax seed oil, c'mon.

You wanna know how lame he is, watch the Real Sports on HBO interview with Gary Sheffield, Bonds' training partner for a while. Watch Gary stutter, shuffle, twitch and evade on the steroid and Bonds thing.

some_girl
August 2nd, 2007, 09:59 AM
Instead of the criticism why don’t we all congratulate her.

Because some of us don't fancy being taken for suckers. The whole business has an odor of the sea about it. No one has any proof one way or the other and in all likleyhood never will, so if you want to be Pollyannaish about it, fine--I am pretty sure that worked out for Pollyanna too. I am however intrigued by that impulse, since DRUGS! was pretty much my first thought on the matter. I find the entire thing implausible.

talne621
August 2nd, 2007, 10:04 AM
yesterdays swims were amazing. dara won the 100 free and phelps almost broke the 200 back world record. on one of the articles on the usa swimming website http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/WireStory?id=3439280&page=2 it says that dara has been tested 3 times in the last 6 weeks. i hope that she makes it to beijing next year.

The Fortress
August 2nd, 2007, 10:05 AM
In no way am I accusing Dara or cheating. My post is simply to point out the possibilities.

My mind disconnects when the reality that “no testing” is performed for those years she was retired. Essentially, she “could” have had her baby, and then began to get back in shape, and built her body back using hard work and the juice (or whatever she chose) and no one would know the difference. Then after her body had the opportunity to grow much stronger with the help of illegal substances, she could stop taking those substances and announce that she is “coming out of retirement” in her attempt to become the first woman swimmer to compete in five Olympic Games. All while testing again begins and she would be as clean as if she never took any illegal performance enhancing drugs.

My suggestion, whenever a world class athlete announces that he or she is going to retire from their sport, they must continue to be tested or never be allowed to return to that sport. These long, long retirements (exactly like Dara’s) leave way to much room for illegal performance enhancing drugs to be used without detection. Let’s face the facts, she is a very talented swimmer and has been for years. She hosts many television programs and commentates for many news organizations and “if” she were to become the first woman to compete in five Olympic Games, huge amounts of money from endorsements are involved. The loop holes and potential monetary gain are way too much for me to be comfortable with her swim last night.

Pretty much my thoughts. Too bad she didn't ask for testing herself during her retirement and masters stint, thereby preempting some of the inevitable charges.

ande
August 2nd, 2007, 10:26 AM
My suggestion, whenever a world class athlete announces that he or she is going to retire from their sport, they must continue to be tested or never be allowed to return to that sport.


this is a bit extreme, I believe when Dara retired in 2000, she was convinced that was it, hence no comeback attempt in 2004. I believe Dara focused on her career and stayed in shape during those years then she shocked her self when she swam the 50 at the 2006 Masters Worlds, and quietly went about getting back in competition shape.

Making another Olympic team is a great career move for her, I don't think Dara would be so motivated by financial gain that she'd juice. She grew up in a wealthy family, I believe her dad managed Wayne Newton. I'm sure she does fine with her career and I'm sure her husband isn't poor.

I think Dara's hungry to see what she can do, this is probably her last hurrah. I'm sure there were times when she felt burned out, but I bet that right now swimming is fun for her.

I'm curious to see how much faster she can go.

You swim girl.

Ande

On another note, with the rapid rise of "Rejuvenation Centers" around the country I'm sure there are several to many masters swimmers who receive their "assistance."



In no way am I accusing Dara or cheating. My post is simply to point out the possibilities.

My mind disconnects when the reality that “no testing” is performed for those years she was retired. Essentially, she “could” have had her baby, and then began to get back in shape, and built her body back using hard work and the juice (or whatever she chose) and no one would know the difference. Then after her body had the opportunity to grow much stronger with the help of illegal substances, she could stop taking those substances and announce that she is “coming out of retirement” in her attempt to become the first woman swimmer to compete in five Olympic Games. All while testing again begins and she would be as clean as if she never took any illegal performance enhancing drugs.

My suggestion, whenever a world class athlete announces that he or she is going to retire from their sport, they must continue to be tested or never be allowed to return to that sport. These long, long retirements (exactly like Dara’s) leave way to much room for illegal performance enhancing drugs to be used without detection. Let’s face the facts, she is a very talented swimmer and has been for years. She hosts many television programs and commentates for many news organizations and “if” she were to become the first woman to compete in five Olympic Games, huge amounts of money from endorsements are involved. The loop holes and potential monetary gain are way too much for me to be comfortable with her swim last night.

Rob Copeland
August 2nd, 2007, 10:26 AM
Geez, when did we become so cynical? When did hard work, natural talent, great coaching and a passion for excellence get replaced by she must be cheating; as the explanation for performance?

So far the only evidence of cheating has been that she is swimming fast. Not that she has added muscle mass or any other indications of chemical cheating.

Look at her swim from last night and compare it to her swim 8 years ago. You will notice that she has improved her technique and has taken advantage of current swim suit technology.

And as for the suggestion that athletes continue to be available for testing after retirement, I’m not sure if you know what is involved with out of competition testing, but the USADA is already overwhelmed. They have a tough enough time with testing at competitions. Out of competition testing is costly, random and in my opinion not very effective. Spending hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars to randomly test retired athletes seems like a fruitless effort. The probability of testing a retired athlete who will return to competition is very slight.

And while we are pointing out possibilities, it is possible that Dara is an alien sent to earth to take over the swimming world. No; wait, this would belong in the horror movie thread. Occam's razor - All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one. Talent and hard work pay off.

FlyQueen
August 2nd, 2007, 10:33 AM
In response to almost all of you - Dara has boatloads of money. Her dad is beyond wealthy too, she certainly doesn't need the money.

I hate all the cynisim because it was all talked about in the run upto Sydney where she never once tested positive. Once she makes the national team which her times will do for her and/or makes the team for the Japan meet which she did with her 100 time she will be tested. She will be tested all the time upto Beijing. I guarantee not one test will be positive. IF (and I don't believe it for a second) she took drugs to get her to where she is she would have to keep taking them in order to perform well.

I feel like accusing her of being doped up takes away from her accomplishment. And comparing her to male athletes in sports like football is pointless. Totally different sports, differnet effect on the body - pounding, and different types of abilities to be the best.

tjburk
August 2nd, 2007, 10:33 AM
Well said Rob!

FlyQueen
August 2nd, 2007, 10:36 AM
Thank you Rob, my thoughts exactly!

aquageek
August 2nd, 2007, 10:42 AM
In response to almost all of you - Dara has boatloads of money. Her dad is beyond wealthy too, she certainly doesn't need the money.

Bonds doesn't need the money either. Not sure what a wealthy daddy has to do with it. Maybe a wealthy sugar daddy would be more relevant.

I can think of one current athlete competing at this level at that age - Vijay Singh. I'll admit that is a huge stretch. Heck, they even say 30 is old in NASCAR now.

The reason we are cynical is because 99% of the time stuff that looks too good to be true is.

swim4sanity
August 2nd, 2007, 10:44 AM
This is probably the same article linked before http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=swimming&id=2957768
but it also mentions that Dara breastfed in between events. That is such an amazing feat in itself. Would she really dope while breastfeeding?

scyfreestyler
August 2nd, 2007, 10:45 AM
Bonds might not need the money but he is chasing something that is even more elusive than the allmighty dollar...HR records held by some of baseball's greatest.

Blackbeard's Peg
August 2nd, 2007, 10:45 AM
Bonds doesn't need the money either.
Bonds was ticked that McGwire and Sosa got all the press for breaking 61 hr/season. So now the attention is all on him.

some_girl
August 2nd, 2007, 10:48 AM
Geez, when did we become so cynical? When did hard work, natural talent, great coaching and a passion for excellence get replaced by she must be cheating; as the explanation for performance?

Since people stopped falling off turnip trucks? Since it has been proven that our ability to come up with ways to dope outstrips our coming up with tests to find the dope?


Occam's razor - All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one. Talent and hard work pay off.

I think that is the point. To some of us the simplest answer to being faster at 40 than you were at 20 is drugs. Optimism is not the same thing as logic (and neither is cynicism, to be fair).


In response to almost all of you - Dara has boatloads of money. Her dad is beyond wealthy too, she certainly doesn't need the money.

I don't think it's money. I think it is ego. All tragedy and farce begin there. It is the essence of the human condition.


In I hate all the cynisim because it was all talked about in the run upto Sydney where she never once tested positive. Once she makes the national team which her times will do for her and/or makes the team for the Japan meet which she did with her 100 time she will be tested. She will be tested all the time upto Beijing. I guarantee not one test will be positive. IF (and I don't believe it for a second) she took drugs to get her to where she is she would have to keep taking them in order to perform well.

Yeah. And Lance Armstrong never tested positive either. She has about a kazillion doctors feeding her suppplements all day every day. They could never possible keep levels just below the threshold. No one knows anything about evading drug tests.

Despite what you want to believe, the world isn't just and talent & hard work is much flimsier than it appears. Keep believing in that indomitiable human spirit, though.

aquageek
August 2nd, 2007, 10:48 AM
Would she really dope while breastfeeding?

That is actually a pretty good point.

swim4sanity
August 2nd, 2007, 10:53 AM
thanks. Also I was a much better swimmer when I was preggos. Your limbs are so loose. I think she also mentioned that in the article. My strokes were near perfect and I felt great. And how many of us returned to swimming after not swimming for a while (since high school) and still "had it". Once it's in you, it's in you.

knelson
August 2nd, 2007, 10:57 AM
My mind disconnects when the reality that “no testing” is performed for those years she was retired. Essentially, she “could” have had her baby, and then began to get back in shape, and built her body back using hard work and the juice (or whatever she chose) and no one would know the difference.

But would this be effective? As soon as she went off the juice she'd start losing the gains based on those drugs. If drugs really affect performance that much why would she continue to swim faster months after going off the drugs?

Rob's points about technique and suit technology are good ones. Plenty of masters swimmers are reaping the benefits of these, getting close to or setting lifetime bests at older ages. Why can't Dara also do this?

I really hope Dara is not a cheater. I think it is very possible she's a phenomenally talented swimmer who didn't quite have the focus she needed when she was a teenager/college swimmer. Now she's got her head in the game, has her technique refined to perfection and she's as fast as ever. I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility.

Rob Copeland
August 2nd, 2007, 11:09 AM
I think that is the point. To some of us the simplest answer to being faster at 40 than you were at 20 is drugs. Optimism is not the same thing as logic (and neither is cynicism, to be fair).Is also the simplest answer to swimming faster at, say 23 or 25, or 29, than at 20 also drugs? So therefore Neethling is a cheater, Phelps is a cheater, Schoeman is a cheater, Jones is a cheater, Keller is a cheater, Brunelli is a cheater, Lochte is a cheater, Vendt is a cheater, Swimstud is a cheater, Coughlin is a cheater, the list goes on and on…

FlyQueen
August 2nd, 2007, 11:13 AM
I swim with several women that are PRing in the 30s and 40s - lifetime PRs. The two that come to mind both age group and college and were very successful. They both swam for big time college programs and were star swimmers while there. Both are also sprinters and both are constantly in the top 10 for 50s and 100s. They may not have Dara speed but they have great technique, started training smarter, and started lifting more.

I also have to believe that she is smart enough to not dope while breastfeeding. Her daughter would have obvious effects as well.

I didn't watch the webcast but from what I have heard her technique was superior to the other awesome athletes in that heat.

Rob Copeland
August 2nd, 2007, 11:14 AM
Also I was a much better swimmer when I was preggos. Your limbs are so loose.Soviet researchers in the 60’s and 70’s demonstrated improved athletic capacity in female athletes after giving birth. Some postpartum hormonal thing. I don’t recall if the studies mentioned limber joints as a contributing factor.

swim4sanity
August 2nd, 2007, 11:19 AM
I don't think she is doping. I can't imagine any mother risking the exposure of her baby to drugs. She is still my idol for being amazing and for breastfeeding between events and training for the Olympics 14 months after giving birth! I don't care if she is 20, 30, or 40 that alone is just awesome.

aquageek
August 2nd, 2007, 11:20 AM
There's a rather gigantic difference between setting PBs in your 30s and 40s and being top 10 USMS and being top 5 in the world.

I would hope she's not doping while breastfeeding but some drugs are not passed along. My wife was always annoyed that alcohol was passed along, but I got another year of a designated driver (almost said DD but figured Stud/Fort would jump all over that with their gutter minds).

Rob - Soviet scientists in the 60s and 70s, I'd be kinda wary of using them for quality references. Maybe there are some East German scientists you could also quote to bolster your assertions.

SwimStud
August 2nd, 2007, 11:25 AM
Is also the simplest answer to swimming faster at, say 23 or 25, or 29, than at 20 also drugs? So therefore Neethling is a cheater, Phelps is a cheater, Schoeman is a cheater, Jones is a cheater, Keller is a cheater, Brunelli is a cheater, Lochte is a cheater, Vendt is a cheater, Swimstud is a cheater, Coughlin is a cheater, the list goes on and on…

I think my LCM times will soon put an end to that theory... :drown::lmao:

Jeff Commings
August 2nd, 2007, 11:39 AM
From The Associated Press:

If people were whispering behind Torres’ back when she was 33, imagine what they might say if he makes it to the Olympics in her 40s? Looking to cut off any rumors before they get started, she went to USA Swimming and asked to be subjected to extra testing, including blood work, in hopes of showing that she’s totally clean.
In the past six weeks, Torres has been tested three times.
“It’s a pain,” she said, “but it’s worth it for all the naysayers out there. Here are all my drug tests and they’re all negative. Those guys can say what they want, but here are the facts.”

Let's drop it now, please.

SwimStud
August 2nd, 2007, 11:42 AM
From The Associated Press:

If people were whispering behind Torres’ back when she was 33, imagine what they might say if he makes it to the Olympics in her 40s? Looking to cut off any rumors before they get started, she went to USA Swimming and asked to be subjected to extra testing, including blood work, in hopes of showing that she’s totally clean.
In the past six weeks, Torres has been tested three times.
“It’s a pain,” she said, “but it’s worth it for all the naysayers out there. Here are all my drug tests and they’re all negative. Those guys can say what they want, but here are the facts.”

Let's drop it now, please.

Here, here!

scyfreestyler
August 2nd, 2007, 11:42 AM
Do you have a hyperlink to that article?

aquageek
August 2nd, 2007, 11:42 AM
Let's drop it now, please.

C'mon, when has fact ever stopped a good ole beatdown on this forum? Floyd Landis still maintains his innocence despite thermonuclear testoterone levels.

Fort is pretty fast, she's on the juice I hear. Stud might be on the dope also, just hasn't gotten the formula right.

FlyQueen
August 2nd, 2007, 11:45 AM
From The Associated Press:

If people were whispering behind Torres’ back when she was 33, imagine what they might say if he makes it to the Olympics in her 40s? Looking to cut off any rumors before they get started, she went to USA Swimming and asked to be subjected to extra testing, including blood work, in hopes of showing that she’s totally clean.
In the past six weeks, Torres has been tested three times.
“It’s a pain,” she said, “but it’s worth it for all the naysayers out there. Here are all my drug tests and they’re all negative. Those guys can say what they want, but here are the facts.”

Let's drop it now, please.


So Jeff the question becomes what is she taking that they can't test for, right?

Rob Copeland
August 2nd, 2007, 11:46 AM
Rob - Soviet scientists in the 60s and 70s, I'd be kinda wary of using them for quality references. Maybe there are some East German scientists you could also quote to bolster your assertions.Hey, the East Germans just found a more effective way of injecting testosterone into there female athletes.

scyfreestyler
August 2nd, 2007, 11:48 AM
Hey, the East Germans just found a more effective way of injecting testosterone into there female athletes.

:rofl:

knelson
August 2nd, 2007, 11:56 AM
The thing that sucks for any athlete being accused of drug cheating is nothing can ever prove their innocence. A positive test can prove their guilt, but no amount of negative testing proves their innocence to the naysayers.

ALM
August 2nd, 2007, 12:02 PM
Soviet researchers in the 60’s and 70’s demonstrated improved athletic capacity in female athletes after giving birth. Some postpartum hormonal thing.

Wow. While I am always looking for ways to improve my swimming performance, I don't think I'll be going to this extreme.... :eek:

-

Stillhere
August 2nd, 2007, 12:19 PM
Lie detector tests are used or used to be given in Bass Pro tournaments to make sure they did not cheat....

Say, pick three very credible lie detector companies and have someone who is "suspect" take three tests by highly credible companies. THe FBI/CIA utilizes these companies/tests within their agencies to keep tabs on agents after they found that one trader had given the USSR Top Secret information that got three of our undercover agent killed in Europe.

Some of the new lie detectors (from what I read) are pretty dead on in "most" people.

And again, I am not saying she took drugs.....

scyfreestyler
August 2nd, 2007, 12:24 PM
Lie detector tests are used or used to be given in Bass Pro tournaments to make sure they did not cheat....

Say, pick three very credible lie detector companies and have someone who is "suspect" take three tests by highly credible companies. THe FBI/CIA utilizes these companies/tests within their agencies to keep tabs on agents after they found that one trader had given the USSR Top Secret information that got three of our undercover agent killed in Europe.

Some of the new lie detectors (from what I read) are pretty dead on in "most" people.

And again, I am not saying she took drugs.....


Wonderful.

Why should Dara be subject to any more scrutiny than any of our other elite athletes in swimming? Does Michael Phelps need to take this lie detector test as well? Or is it only people who draw significant scrutiny from those on USMS.ORG?

The Fortress
August 2nd, 2007, 12:41 PM
On another note, with the rapid rise of "Rejuvenation Centers" around the country I'm sure there are several to many masters swimmers who receive their "assistance."

What's a "rejuvenation center?" Despite my apparent cynicism, I seem unaware of this phenomenon.

FlyQueen:

No one, including me, has "accused" Dara. As much as we all hope our sport is clean, it is human nature to ponder over an accomplishment that defies logic. We shouldn't be castigated for expressing a mere thought. Dara is obviously just phenomenally talented and, as Rob points out, hard working. It does suck that she can't "prove" her innocence and I hope she is innocent.

Geek:

Very funny! I clearly fall into the category of aging masters who can still sprint a bit, but fade quickly over any distance, lacking endurance and proper training or anything else besides naturally fast twitch muscles. Not PR-ing in my 40s either.

TheGoodSmith
August 2nd, 2007, 12:47 PM
SCYFreestyler,

You are right. Let's give all the top finishers lie detector tests. I'd love to see the results.

I find it interesting that Dara is now pretty much able to keep up with Rich Saeger, age 42, the fastest man in the world over 40. He was a peer of hers and also made the Olympics in 1984 on the 800 relay. He went a 50 point 100m freestyler back in college. After training for the masters world games last year he went a startling 1:55.0 for a 200m free and 53.4 for a 100m free.

I would like to think that Rich has more testosterone flowing through his veins than a women of relatively equal age..... :-)


John Smith

Frank Thompson
August 2nd, 2007, 01:10 PM
Mr Goodsmith:

Its nice to hear from you. I noticed that your times in the 50 and 100 Free last year in the Stanford World Championships at almost 45 years old are faster than Dara Torres times are now. I don't think we would ever accuse you of taking performance enhancing drugs because you said you don't have the body look of someone like that. So how do you swim so fast at your age? I have to believe its your technique, experience, and talent. Or is it your workouts?

CreamPuff
August 2nd, 2007, 01:20 PM
From The Associated Press:

If people were whispering behind Torres’ back when she was 33, imagine what they might say if he makes it to the Olympics in her 40s? Looking to cut off any rumors before they get started, she went to USA Swimming and asked to be subjected to extra testing, including blood work, in hopes of showing that she’s totally clean.
In the past six weeks, Torres has been tested three times.
“It’s a pain,” she said, “but it’s worth it for all the naysayers out there. Here are all my drug tests and they’re all negative. Those guys can say what they want, but here are the facts.”

Let's drop it now, please.

That's more than sufficient for me.

ensignada
August 2nd, 2007, 01:24 PM
Doping questions aside, I was at the IU Natatorium last night when she swam. It was spellbinding, watching her fly down the first 50, flip ahead of the others and then keep it up. I hope she's clean, because being there to see that swim was absolutely magnificent.

BTW, I thought it great that she was applauded just as loud as Phelps when she was introduced and even louder when she finished first (poor guy, everyone was disappointed he *only* set a US record!)

aquageek
August 2nd, 2007, 01:25 PM
Skip:

Not saying Smith isn't on the juice but your argument is lame. Smith, while smoking fast, is probably in the top 2 or 3 in the world for his age, would be well below 90th place in this weekend's meet with his 100 time from Stanford, which I think is a US only meet. In a way you've almost come to Smith's defense (despicable as that may be) as you have pretty much proven it is downright hard to compete with the 20 something elites in your 40s.

some_girl
August 2nd, 2007, 01:30 PM
Is also the simplest answer to swimming faster at, say 23 or 25, or 29, than at 20 also drugs? So therefore Neethling is a cheater, Phelps is a cheater, Schoeman is a cheater, Jones is a cheater, Keller is a cheater, Brunelli is a cheater, Lochte is a cheater, Vendt is a cheater, Swimstud is a cheater, Coughlin is a cheater, the list goes on and on…

Oh come on. At least argue with good faith. Twenty-nine is not forty. Improving your times as a Masters swimmer when you didn't swim at the most elite level is different again.

Anyways, this is pointless. People who want to believe she is clean will find the flimsiest pretexts to believe it, and for many of the cynical there is little that will lay the matter to rest. And I suppose that wanting to believe in the wonder of the world, while naive, is not killing babies or anything, so go forth, be happy.

Stillhere
August 2nd, 2007, 01:38 PM
SCYFreestyler:
Sure, let's see what the tests have to say and give the test to all of the final 8 swimmers in the finals. Why not? Why not in cycling or anywhere else in sports. Hey, if everyone is clean, why not? I had a high security clearance in a former job and I took one without offense.
My bet is the results would be shocking to say the least. I believe quite a few of the top athletes in many sports are not clean.

knelson
August 2nd, 2007, 01:38 PM
In a way you've almost come to Smith's defense (despicable as that may be) as you have pretty much proven it is downright hard to compete with the 20 something elites in your 40s.

However John Smith and Rich Saeger are not (I assume) swimming full-time as Dara is. What could they do if they quit working and focused on swimming full-time? I don't think they could do what Dara has done, but then again, as talented as they are, they are not Dara Torres.


Sure, let's see what the tests have to say and give the test to all of the final 8 swimmers in the finals. Why not?

Quite simply because failing a lie-detector test does not prove you used illegal drugs. I think the only proof you used drugs is to find those drugs in your urine or blood.

TheGoodSmith
August 2nd, 2007, 01:39 PM
Skip,

For practical purposes, my 54.3 last summer is the same time as Dara's 54.4. Note, I was 51.1 back in 1984. That's a 3.2 second spread, and it almost killed me last summer. It was a really ugly swim. My yards times are similar for my age .... 43.9 in college and 47 low in my 40s.

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Don't you find it interesting that Susan Von Der Lippe (i.e Rapp) a multiple Olympic team member *** in individual events *** is currently not able to final or place in the top 3 at US nationals let alone win. Susan's talent and efforts are startling for her age (i.e. 1:12 100m breast made cuts for trials) ...... but she does not beat the best men her age in the same event.

There is a significant comparative leap that Dara has made with these swims in my opinion.


John Smith

TheGoodSmith
August 2nd, 2007, 01:43 PM
However John Smith and Rich Saeger are not (I assume) swimming full-time as Dara is. What could they do if they quit working and focused on swimming full-time? I don't think they could do what Dara has done, but then again, as talented as they are, they are not Dara Torres.


Careful Kirk..... take a look at Rich's pedigree in the sport. He was as good or better than Dara in his day. Rich is a good comparison for Dara. They both made free relays on the Olympic team in their day. Rich is the "real" thing and he was a multilple national team qualifier.

I on the other hand was just another "John Smith" on deck at nationals with a couple of 3rd, 4ths and 7th place finishes to my name.

Many test negative in the sport of cycling.......... doesn't seem to mean much anymore does it.


John Smith

scyfreestyler
August 2nd, 2007, 01:46 PM
Skip,

For practical purposes, my 54.3 is the same time as Dara's 54.4. Note, I was 51.1 back in 1984. That's a 3.2 second spread, and it almost killed me last summer. It was a really ugly swim. My yards times are similar for my age .... 43.9 in college and 47 low in my 40s.

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Don't you find it interesting that Susan Von Der Lippe (i.e Rapp) a multiple Olympic team member *** in individual events *** is currently not able to final or place in the top 3 at US nationals let alone win. Susan's talent and efforts are startling for her age (i.e. 1:12 100m breast made cuts for trials) ...... but she does not beat the best men her age in the same event.

There is a significant comparative leap that Dara has made with these swims in my opinion.


John Smith

So you are saying that it is not physically possible (unless using drug aids) to swim as fast at 40 as you did in your 20's? Where is it written?


All I know is that there is more evidence to support her being clean that there is to support her being dirty.

Stillhere
August 2nd, 2007, 01:47 PM
"There is a significant comparative leap that Dara has made with these swims in my opinion."

Interesting thought and well put.

scyfreestyler
August 2nd, 2007, 01:48 PM
SCYFreestyler:
Sure, let's see what the tests have to say and give the test to all of the final 8 swimmers in the finals. Why not? Why not in cycling or anywhere else in sports. Hey, if everyone is clean, why not? I had a high security clearance in a former job and I took one without offense.
My bet is the results would be shocking to say the least. I believe quite a few of the top athletes in many sports are not clean.

If a lie detector test is not admissable in a court of law as evidence then why in the hell would we want to use it as a drug testing method? Seriously?

Stillhere
August 2nd, 2007, 01:53 PM
"All I know is that there is more evidence to support her being clean that there is to support her being dirty."

This statement is 100% correct, but only after years in retirement where there is ZERO evidence to support anything. The effects of the strength gained during the time of drug use does not immediately go away and can and has been proven to continue to assist in the continued strength of that athlete. It raises the bar to build on. Meaning, yes, when the drugs stop, things do not grow as strong or as fast, but the lasting effects can and have been evident long after the drug use ended.

SwimStud
August 2nd, 2007, 01:58 PM
Look, this name calling and bickering is pointless.
Until there is proof one way or the other...it's an opinion--we all know the saying.

Let's not drag her name through mud or even attempt to...we look like squabbling kids. What if her mother reads it or something...ya know?

knelson
August 2nd, 2007, 01:59 PM
Careful Kirk..... take a look at Rich's pedigree in the sport. He was as good or better than Dara in his day. Rich is a good comparison for Dara. They both made free relays on the Olympic team in their day. Rich is the "real" thing and he was a multilple national team qualifier.

Rich is legit, no question, but I just don't think his pedigree in the sport is quite up to Dara's level. Also keep in mind the 50 was usually Dara's forte and that wasn't contested at the Olympics until 1988.

I think I posted this once before, but here's a link to the results of the 1984 Trials. You might recognize the person in the photo on the second page!
http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/_Rainbow/Documents/fa21a773-d05d-4ba9-ac53-03f7f89be9ae/84_otrials.pdf

The Fortress
August 2nd, 2007, 02:04 PM
Rich is legit, no question, but I just don't think his pedigree in the sport is quite up to Dara's level. Also keep in mind the 50 was usually Dara's forte and that wasn't contested at the Olympics until 1988.

I think I posted this once before, but here's a link to the results of the 1984 Trials. You might recognize the person in the photo on the second page!
http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/_Rainbow/Documents/fa21a773-d05d-4ba9-ac53-03f7f89be9ae/84_otrials.pdf



Does Rich have "boatloads" of money too? Maybe he can be a test case ...

Stillhere
August 2nd, 2007, 02:06 PM
SCYFreestyler:
For the same reason it is used in many areas of business, security, law enforcement and military applications. It is a proven effective tool used by most law enforcement agencies in our country. Our laws do not permit the use of it in a court of law because or legal system trusts the evidence and testimony against the accused or suspect more then they do a machine. In sports, there are no witnesses or testimonies; for athletes who cheat, hide what they do very well.
I simply think it would be an interesting exercise to see what all 8 finalists tests would have to say in every sport.

TheGoodSmith
August 2nd, 2007, 02:06 PM
Kirk,

Ah yes..... my wife.... then Freshman Tori Trees....... outside smoke lane 8 in the finals. One of only a handful of people in the sport ever to make the Olympic team from lane eight.

Seems like 100 years ago


John Smith

aquageek
August 2nd, 2007, 02:07 PM
Look, this name calling and bickering is pointless.

Look, we finally get a good hot topic and you want to quash the fun. This is legit conversation by folks who know the sport. Go back to planning your buffet for your meet if you don't like this. Personally, I find this interesting and am learning a lot about fast swimming and that Smith might be on the Balco power lunch, according to Skip anyway. Maybe you should take note.

aquageek
August 2nd, 2007, 02:08 PM
Does Rich have "boatloads" of money too? Maybe he can be a test case ...

No, but his dad does.

scyfreestyler
August 2nd, 2007, 02:11 PM
SCYFreestyler:
For the same reason it is used in many areas of business, security, law enforcement and military applications. It is a proven effective tool used by most law enforcement agencies in our country. Our laws do not permit the use of it in a court of law because or legal system trusts the evidence and testimony against the accused or suspect more then they do a machine. In sports, there are no witnesses or testimonies; for athletes who cheat, hide what they do very well.
I simply think it would be an interesting exercise to see what all 8 finalists tests would have to say in every sport.

So what do you do with the results? Ban people from competing? I don't see that as being a reasonable course of action.

SwimStud
August 2nd, 2007, 02:16 PM
Look, we finally get a good hot topic and you want to quash the fun. This is legit conversation by folks who know the sport. Go back to planning your buffet for your meet if you don't like this. Personally, I find this interesting and am learning a lot about fast swimming. Maybe you should take note.

I'm not quashing the fun...just saying name dropping and psuedo accusations are bit off.

..but hey, you're really serious about this thread...not.
You're just deperate to draw me into a flame fest...your posts here alone prove that...maybe if you took the poster of me down from your locker and focused on techinique, instead of some latent, crush/envy of me as your motivator...you might beat Dara...

:rofl::banana:

The Fortress
August 2nd, 2007, 02:18 PM
So what do you do with the results? Ban people from competing? I don't see that as being a reasonable course of action.

It wouldn't be! Not to say the results wouldn't be interesting.

aquageek
August 2nd, 2007, 02:21 PM
Dang it - busted again! I'll take down your picture and the caption underneath of your 2:46 200 SCY free and try to find motivation elsewhere. Will be hard to turn my attention from the self-appointed Stud but I shall do my best to carry on with my shattered swimming life.

Stillhere
August 2nd, 2007, 02:26 PM
Please forgive me not being clear. I simply raised the question that the test results would be interesting to say the least. And, if found that they were deceptive, perhaps additional scrutiny and drug testing to find out why they were deceptive in their answers.
I do not have the answer to this very old problem that has ravaged sports over the years, I simply raised some questions and expressed what I feel or think would be interesting. At the very least, it would perhaps shed light on some areas that are rather gray at best.
Lastly, I am not pointing my finger at Dara and I'm the last guy on earth who would want to see her or any other swimmer vilified without proof. Her swim last night raised a question or two in my mind for obvious reasons.

Frank Thompson
August 2nd, 2007, 02:27 PM
Mr. Goodsmith:


My point was that you and Rich are going pretty fast as Masters swimmers. But you guys were fast to begin with as NCAA Division I swimmers. Do you really think that Dara is on performance enhancing drugs? Because of what she did last night, you don't believe its possible that with the talent, changes in her technique, years of swimming experience, improved dryland and strength training, and an improved mental focus that its not possible to swim that fast?

The reason I brought up your swimming is that you have said on this website or hinted that you do not train like you did back in the Univ. of Texas days. If you had the time and desire to do that how much faster would you go? I am willing to bet that even when Dara was not swimming she had a very serious dryland program with that Tai Boe stuff when she was working with Billy Blanks. With that kinda of exercise regime she had in retirement from swimming helped her sprinting capability and that could be one of the reasons why she is swimming faster. That maybe conventional training did work for her similar to what Gary Hall Jr. has said of himself and how with the Race Club type workouts he has been more successful for him and others and that is why he won the gold in the 50 Free in 2004.

I suggest you read Mr. Busfield's accusations that are linked. He has accused Dara of taking performance enhancing drugs with out a single bit of proof. He cannot accept that her performances were done legitmately and that she should be banned from swimming based soley on the available circumstantial evidence. If you have not read those threads go and read them and comment on what you think. I have found so many inaccuracies from those 3 links that I could be hear the next 2 hours explaining them.

AquaGeek, tell me what you think of those 3 linked stories and do you believe Mr Busfield has any creditability with his accusations? That its impossible to swim that fast as a 40 year old and that all of the circumstantial evidence points to the fact that Dara Torres is a cheater.

I wonder what would have happened if Rowdy Gaines would have made the 1988 Olympic team in the 100 Free? People don't realize how close he came to making it and he trained about 10% of what he did for the 1980 and 1984 Olympics. He was 35 at the time but can't people believe that he had outstanding talent just like Dara has and this is a possibility.

SwimStud
August 2nd, 2007, 02:28 PM
Dang it - busted again! I'll take down your picture and the caption underneath of your 2:46 200 SCY and try to find motivation elsewhere. Will be hard to turn my attention from the self-appointed Stud but I shall do my best to carry on with my shattered swimming life.

LOL that's a PB! I'm damn proud of that swim!
Never swam it before, did open turns, recovering from a stomach virus which cost me 7lbs the week before (sadly regained), and I had been competetive for all of 3 months...I am so ashamed I got up and swam something more than 50 BR.
How many seconds do you think I will shave off next year at NEM? Will you accuse me of doping then too? Let's give me :02 per open turn back I'm already sub 2:30.
It must be lonely at the acme of masters swimming there dude...:bow:
If I break 2:25 I'll pose nude for you ;)

Now stop disrupting the topic...
:D

scyfreestyler
August 2nd, 2007, 02:29 PM
Gotcha.

SwimStud
August 2nd, 2007, 02:31 PM
Although I'd like to trust we're all competing clean, if they starting testing or wanting testing to prove it--it would kill the USMS scene. IMHO.

aquageek
August 2nd, 2007, 02:31 PM
AquaGeek, tell me what you think of those 3 linked stories and do you believe Mr Busfield has any creditability with his accusations?

I'll admit those stories were flaky.

As to you Stud - I had kidney stones, an enlarged phylo pactoractum muscle, had just given birth, ate a four-bean five-alarm chili burger and was mostly drunk when I set my PB, top that! Geez - just swim.

Rob Copeland
August 2nd, 2007, 02:34 PM
People who want to believe she is clean will find the flimsiest pretexts to believe itLike never testing positive on any drug test in her life or a boat load of Olympic medals? Pretty flimsy.

And a lie detector test??? No self respecting conspiracy theorist will ever believe a lie detector test. The government will obviously fake the results or she will cheat the test. While some people love a conspiracy; the USA moon landing was filmed on a Hollywood sound stage, the grassy knoll, etc; the only facts in evidence to this point are 1) that Dara went 54.45 to win the 100 last night, 2) she has NEVER failed a drug test, 3) and conspiracy theorists will continue to ignore the facts.

The Fortress
August 2nd, 2007, 02:35 PM
I'll admit those stories were flaky.

They were, but it's just a blog, not Scientific American. What can one expect? (Sorry ande) Some decent points nonetheless.

Yeah, the notion of lie detector tests really creep me out, Rob.

FlyQueen
August 2nd, 2007, 02:37 PM
No, but his dad does.

You don't think her millionaire father would help her out with money in any way he can?!

aquageek
August 2nd, 2007, 02:47 PM
You don't think her millionaire father would help her out with money in any way he can?!

I don't know a thing about her dad's benevolence. Maybe as a 40 year old married woman with a kid she has figured out how to live and train independent of a ride on the parental gravy train, but you never know, he could be bankrolling the effort.

FlyQueen
August 2nd, 2007, 02:49 PM
Maybe since my married friends still get crap loads of money from their parents (think of down payments on condos, cars, and their own credit cards which are used to purchase very expensive clothes, shoes, and furniture) I might be biased.

Dara also has plenty of money on her own. I think the money excuse is valid.

TheGoodSmith
August 2nd, 2007, 02:51 PM
Skip,

I read the articles and find some very interesting and compelling points he has made. The Spitz comparison is worth noting. Spitz couldn't make the comeback let alone final at nationals, and he had considerably more talent than Dara.

Skip, I couldn't replicate or come close to my college times even if I did train full time. And don't go telling me that the sport has changed that much. That's a load of crap. If you take away the cheatin' suits, the cheatin' dolphin kick on backstroke, the cheatin' dolphin kick on pullouts and look at the 8th place time from nationals, it hasn't improved that much over the last quarter of a century. The 200 free is proof positive. Take a second away for the full body suit, and the event is only about a second and a half faster 25 years later. Note, I got 4th at NCAAs in 1984 and qualified for finals with a 1:35.89. 25 years later with a full body suit a 1:34 low will still get you into the top 8. I'm not impressed with the field....... only the winners.

I don't think the sport has changed that much Skip....... I do believe there are more drugs and illegal supplements out there. Also, check your age on Rowdy. He's only about 4 years older than me. In 1988 I was 26.


John Smith
(an old and jaded man)

FlyQueen
August 2nd, 2007, 02:59 PM
While I find the Spitz comparison somewhat valid - how old was he in 92? He was 20 years removed from his stellar Olympics!! That's older than most kids on the National Team (or at least several of them). Dara is 7 years removed from her last Olympics - a HUGE difference. As far as talent goes, who knows she might be as talented or more so. Why do you think Spitz was more talented? (I am curious not accusing)

aquageek
August 2nd, 2007, 03:03 PM
For me the talent is better because he has the most impressive Olympic performance (in any and all sports) ever. Seven gold medals in a single Olympics, we've been mesmerized by that for 35 years now. It is still the ultimate Olympics achievement. Michael Johnson was awesome in 1996 but still not Spitz awesome.

Smith - good post and humorous, a double whammy.

FlyQueen
August 2nd, 2007, 03:17 PM
For me the talent is better because he has the most impressive Olympic performance (in any and all sports) ever. Seven gold medals in a single Olympics, we've been mesmerized by that for 35 years now. It is still the ultimate Olympics achievement. Michael Johnson was awesome in 1996 but still not Spitz awesome.

Smith - good post and humorous, a double whammy.

I understand what he accomplished, but even he admits that he couldn't do it now because the level of competition is so much higher, the pressure is higher, etc. He thinks Phelps is a lot more talented. The women's sprints are deep and very fast. I don't think you can compare them.

Again 20 year Olympic lay off!!

aquageek
August 2nd, 2007, 03:23 PM
I told you why I thought he was more talented, take it or leave it. Torres hasn't come close to that so there you go. You can't change when you are born or who you compete against. Another reason is that the most talented Olympian of all time, Spitz, says Phelps is more talented, yet even Phelps hasn't done what Spitz did, yet anyway.

FlyQueen
August 2nd, 2007, 03:28 PM
And I *gasp* disagreed with you and questioned you. I should probably be beated for such a front.

Thanks for clearing up that bit about not being able to control when you are born. What I am saying is you can't control your circumstances either and things are constantly changing which is why it is somewhat silly to compare Spitz and Torres.

Frank Thompson
August 2nd, 2007, 03:36 PM
Mr Goodsmith:

The Spitz comparison is a very weak one. Spitz did not stay active the way Dara did when he made his comeback. He took 17 years off from swimming and from physical sports activity. Spitz is probably the most talented swimmer ever. His workouts were legendary because no one did workouts like he did and was able to be that good. When Spitz tried to make a comeback he managed to go :58.03 in the 100 meter Fly and the Olympic Trial qualifying time was :55.59 and he wasn't even close. Dara Torres goes to Stanford last year and goes :25.98 leading off a Relay that I know you were a witness to and easily makes the Olympic standard without any publicity. That fact that it took Spitz 2 full years to do a time that came up almost 2.5 seconds from qualifying and it took Dara qualifing easily after having a baby 3 months before the swim says something. Plus I don't believe Spitz went to any of the big competitions that Dara has gone to and the only races I remember seeing him in in his comeback were the TV prize races against Biondi and Jager where he was soundly beaten.

There was a lot of incentive for him to do this because Bud Greenspan was going to make a film of his comeback if he were successful. The fact that his :54.27 time in 1972 would have placed him 3rd in the 1989 USA LCM rankings made people believe he could do it. My understanding is that Dara is doing this on her own and there are no financial incentives attached yet. It will be interesting to see how far she goes and what happens.

You are correct about Rowdy. He was 29 when he missed making the 1988 Olympic team by .07 in the 100 Meter Free. You still have not answered my question. Do you believe that Dara Torres is using performancing enhancing drugs and is that the reason for her success? I agree there are more drugs and illegal supplements out there but does that mean that Dara Torress is using performance enhancing drugs?

aquageek
August 2nd, 2007, 03:38 PM
What I am saying is you can't control your circumstances either and things are constantly changing which is why it is somewhat silly to compare Spitz and Torres.

So, apparently you aren't really curious at all. To me, Spitz has a more impressive swimming resume and that leads me to believe he is or was or whatever more talented, in case you are curious.

Debating who was better in different sports eras is one of the best things about sports, and sports bars, and beer. Woods/Nicklaus, Wilt/Russell, etc.

SwimStud
August 2nd, 2007, 03:39 PM
So, apparently you aren't really curious at all. To me, Spitz has a more impressive swimming resume and that leads me to believe he is or was or whatever more talented, in case you are curious.

Debating who was better in different sports eras is one of the best things about sports, and sports bars, and beer. Woods/Nicklaus, Wilt/Russell, etc.

...but it's still just a matter of opinion...whether you know all the stats or are just drunk and annoying...

knelson
August 2nd, 2007, 03:49 PM
Don't you find it interesting that Susan Von Der Lippe (i.e Rapp) a multiple Olympic team member *** in individual events *** is currently not able to final or place in the top 3 at US nationals let alone win. Susan's talent and efforts are startling for her age (i.e. 1:12 100m breast made cuts for trials)

No really, because breaststroke times have improved much more than freestyle times in the last 20-25 years. Susan Rapp made the '84 team with a 1:11.39 in the 100 breast, so she's not far off that time now. Granted, breaststroke rules have changed to improve times whereas freestyle hasn't. However, by Susan's own admission she's overweight and doesn't train very hard (http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/ViewMiscArticle.aspx?TabId=585&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en&mid=1169&ItemId=1807)

"How has your training changed since your Olympic years?
I don't think I can call what I do now training. I used to swim 12,000-14,000 yards a day. Now it takes me a whole week to swim that far. I think I'll be the least-trained swimmer at the 2008 Trials. I know I'll probably be the fattest too. My husband said that since I made the Trials cut, I can now call the extra tummy fat that I earned from having two kids my "power pooch". Before, it was simply a pooch. "

You can't really say the same thing about Dara.

FlyQueen
August 2nd, 2007, 04:04 PM
So, apparently you aren't really curious at all. To me, Spitz has a more impressive swimming resume and that leads me to believe he is or was or whatever more talented, in case you are curious.

Debating who was better in different sports eras is one of the best things about sports, and sports bars, and beer. Woods/Nicklaus, Wilt/Russell, etc.


It's like arguing with a brick wall ...

I am not taking away from Spitz's achievements at all. Making an Olympic team is unbelievable, medaling is amazing, getting 7 golds in one Olympics is superhuman. What I am trying to say is comparing Spitz's attempt at a comeback with Dara's is stupid. He may have won more medals in a single Olympics than Dara, but Dara has 9 medals. That's right, just as many as Spitz! Spitz won more in a single Olympics Dara qualified for four teams, and likely will qualify for a 5th. I would argue that had she kept going she'd be going for her 7th.

You can compare their careers all you want, but not their comebacks. Spitz's times were right around the times he went 20! years previously and Dara's are around the times she went 7 years ago. Her's are still good enough to qualify her, his were not. She stayed in phenomenal shape for all her years off - Spitz not so much.

TheGoodSmith
August 2nd, 2007, 04:05 PM
Skip,

Why do you care what I really think about Dara?

After all, I am merely and average "John Smith" on deck. My opinion is not significant.


John

TheGoodSmith
August 2nd, 2007, 04:14 PM
FlyQueen,

If you want to compare talent to Spitz on the female side you need to draw from greats like Tracy Caulkins and Mary T......... this is the level we are speaking about. Dara is stellar but never "owned" an individual event the way these people "owned" their events.


John smith

FlyQueen
August 2nd, 2007, 04:20 PM
FlyQueen,

If you want to compare talent to Spitz on the female side you need to draw from greats like Tracy Caulkins and Mary T......... this is the level we are speaking about. Dara is stellar but never "owned" an individual event the way these people "owned" their events.


John smith


I never said she did. But she obviously has got mad talent since she has 9 Olympic medals, which is 9 more than I'll ever lay my hands on. Maybe I'll hit my stride in my 30s ...

Maybe Katie Hoff before long? She seems to be the female Phelps at least. The girl is amazing.

I also think sprints are the hardest thing to dominate.

aquageek
August 2nd, 2007, 04:25 PM
It's like arguing with a brick wall ...

My wife says that too.

I bet if you asked 100 swimmers over age 35 who is the most talented swimmer of all time, you'd be lucky to find 2 or 3 to say Torres. If you told them to exclude Phelps, you'd still be lucky to have that many Torres votes. This takes nothing away from her or Rowdy (who runs a great clinic BTW, shameless, non-paid promo) or Biondi or even my hero Stud.

This is better than a sports bar argument, no smoking, plenty of fire, however. Now, if it's silly to compare talent, and stupid to compare comebacks, why did you bring it all up, out of curiosity.

FlyQueen
August 2nd, 2007, 04:38 PM
My wife says that too and she also has a wealthy dad, but not so prone to doling out the cash.

I bet if you asked 100 swimmers over age 35 who is the most talented swimmer of all time, you'd be lucky to find 2 or 3 to say Torres. If you told them to exclude Phelps, you'd still be lucky to have that many Torres votes. This takes nothing away from her or Rowdy (who runs a great clinic BTW, shameless, non-paid promo) or Biondi or even my hero Stud.

This is better than a sports bar argument, no smoking, plenty of fire, however. Now, if it's silly to compare talent, and stupid to compare comebacks, why did you bring it all up, out of curiosity.

If you asked 100 swimmers you'd have 100 OPINIONS.

Are you kidding with they why did I bring it up? I didn't!

some_girl
August 2nd, 2007, 04:39 PM
Like never testing positive on any drug test in her life or a boat load of Olympic medals? Pretty flimsy.

Like claiming it means anything that someone "never tested positive" when they were not continuously tested (ie, were retired) and when the steriod scandals of the last however-many years have centered around undetectable substances, including those which are indistinguishable from naturally occuring substances and are only tested for in the sense that they must be below a certain threshold.

And they are relay medals.

aquageek
August 2nd, 2007, 04:44 PM
As far as talent goes, who knows she might be as talented or more so. Why do you think Spitz was more talented? (I am curious not accusing)

There you go.

Frank Thompson
August 2nd, 2007, 04:45 PM
Skip,

Why do you care what I really think about Dara?

After all, I am merely and average "John Smith" on deck. My opinion is not significant.


John

The reason I care is because I know how you feel about this from other threads from prior years. And your opinion means something because you have been around swimming all your life and I am curious to see what you think. You are not just average John Smith. You used to come on this website a lot and give us your views of the current state of swimming. I respect that even though I have disagreed with you a lot.

Paul Evil Smith has stated that until Dara has failed a drug test that its pointless to speculate. I tend to agree with him. If you don't want to say that is fine too. I just think the story that Mr. Busfield told is a total slam. Its like he has an ax to grind. He does not provide any evidence and he just speculates. He goes on to attack her previous swimming accomplishments and then he never says what he has done in this sport and how is he qualified to make such accusations. Its seems to me to be very unfair to do this to someone who as a USMS swimmer has set a good example for us to be proud of. Until she has failed a drug test, I think people should just ignore this garbage and be proud of the accomplishments.

scyfreestyler
August 2nd, 2007, 04:47 PM
And they are relay medals.


So she dragged ass and made her teammates pick up the slack? How many Olympic Medals do you have? How about American Records? It sounds like you are bound and determined to belittle Dara's accomplishments past and present. Why is that?

FlyQueen
August 2nd, 2007, 04:50 PM
Like claiming it means anything that someone "never tested positive" when they were not continuously tested (ie, were retired) and when the steriod scandals of the last however-many years have centered around undetectable substances, including those which are indistinguishable from naturally occuring substances and are only tested for in the sense that they must be below a certain threshold.

And they are relay medals.


She has individual medals too. How many relay Olympic medals do you have?

FlyQueen
August 2nd, 2007, 04:53 PM
There you go.


I didn't bring up Spitz.

some_girl
August 2nd, 2007, 05:14 PM
How many relay Olympic medals do you have?

I have so many individual arguing golds I don't need swimming medals. But if going fast makes you right, then I guess I know who is right between us, eh? (Even if that makes me more wrong than a lot of other folks on the thread.)

As to why I am "determined to belittle"? A little counterpoint to the overly optimistic demands I adore her perhaps.

Rob Copeland
August 2nd, 2007, 05:17 PM
So she dragged ass and made her teammates pick up the slack?Much like Jenny (The Slacker) Thompson, all 8 of her Olympic gold’s were on relays, and only one measly silver and bronze in individual events. And Jenny’s Bronze was shared with Dara. For that matter 5 of Spitz’s 9 gold’s were for relays.

TheGoodSmith
August 2nd, 2007, 05:17 PM
Skip,

Cripes,...... you don't need to be a "player" to offer a qualified opinion on this subject. You just have to PAY ATTENTION and think with your mind not your heart. I'll be honest with you, at the expense of my reputation as the most irritating masters swimmer, I will tell you my opinion. I lean toward the article's conclusion. The evidence is indeed circumstantial, but you can not deny that the drug testing performed these days is lagging and insufficient as clearly evidenced in the sport of cycling.

Sorry Skip, seems like we've seen and heard about too much drug crap the last 15 years in this sport. It is disillusioning.

All 3 of my children (14,12,8) swim competitively now. I have taught them that supplements and drugs beyond mere vitamins and protein powder are flat out cheating. I am confident they will not act foolishly in their future swimming career. I can not say that about a growing percentage of young swimmers who begin with lessor items as Creatine in highschool and expand from there in college and beyond.

Balco was real..... no one on talked about it on this thread until the whistle was blown. No one knew about The Clear, THG, IGF-1, HGH and other designer steroids until recent years. How do we know that there isn't another Balco out there or another THG equivalent.............. we just don't.

Note........ Paul is much more dipolmatic in his approach to the subject..... but don't think he doesn't have a strong opinion.

Let me ask you a tough question now, Skip........ Do you think there are any top level Masters Swimmers who take human growth hormone, testosterone or other hardcore supplements ? Bad enough to cheat at the real thing (i.e. US Nationals)...... how pathetic, insecure and desperate for attention do you think it would be for a Masters swimmer to take these drugs? ........ :-)

My god I wish I started this thread. I would win the "Most Controversial Thread" of the year award hands down.


John Smith

scyfreestyler
August 2nd, 2007, 05:21 PM
Much like Jenny (The Slacker) Thompson, all 8 of her Olympic gold’s were on relays, and only one measly silver and bronze in individual events. And Jenny’s Bronze was shared with Dara. For that matter 5 of Spitz’s 9 gold’s were for relays.



Well stated Rob, well stated.

The Fortress
August 2nd, 2007, 05:23 PM
Cripes,...... you don't need to be a "player" to offer a qualified opinion on this subject.

Thank you. I was just about to make this same point. I don't see how anyone's times are relevant to the topic.

Frank Thompson
August 2nd, 2007, 05:41 PM
Skip,

Cripes,...... you don't need to be a "player" to offer a qualified opinion on this subject. You just have to PAY ATTENTION and think with your mind not your heart. I'll be honest with you, at the expense of my reputation as the most irritating masters swimmer, I will tell you my opinion. I lean toward the article's conclusion. The evidence is indeed circumstantial, but you can not deny that the drug testing performed these days is lagging and insufficient as clearly evidenced in the sport of cycling.

Sorry Skip, seems like we've seen and heard about too much drug crap the last 15 years in this sport. It is disillusioning.

All 3 of my children (14,12,8) swim competitively now. I have taught them that supplements and drugs beyond mere vitamins and protein powder are flat out cheating. I am confident they will not act foolishly in their future swimming career. I can not say that about a growing percentage of young swimmers who begin with lessor items as Creatine in highschool and expand from there in college and beyond.

Balco was real..... no one on talked about it on this thread until the whistle was blown. No one knew about The Clear, THG, IGF-1, HGH and other designer steroids until recent years. How do we know that there isn't another Balco out there or another THG equivalent.............. we just don't.

Note........ Paul is much more dipolmatic in his approach to the subject..... but don't think he doesn't have a strong opinion.

Let me ask you a tough question now, Skip........ Do you think there are any top level Masters Swimmers who take human growth hormone, testosterone or other hardcore supplements ? Bad enough to cheat at the real thing (i.e. US Nationals)...... how pathetic and desperate for attention do you think it would be for a Masters swimmer to take these drugs? ........ :-)

My god I wish I started this thread. I would win the "Most Controversial Thread" of the year award hands down.


John Smith

Mr Goodsmith:

Please don't compare Cycling to Swimming. Have more faith then that. At the last two World Championships there was not one infraction or failed drug test that was adminstered by the WADA and FINA. That does not mean that everything is perfect and there are those who slip thru the cracks but honestly when you follow the Tour de France and see the results of that I can honestly say that Swimming has not reached those heights. Its not perfect either but way better than that.

About Masters swimmers taking illegal supplements we have discussed that on other threads and its possible that swimmers could be doing it but again its all speculation. About the guy being a player on the subject what I meant is what gives him the right to make these accusations? What is his background to do this? He is really slamming someone without any proof. If he had some reasonable proof, we could give some credability to his accusations, but he does not, so its just speculation and to me that is meaningless.

TheGoodSmith
August 2nd, 2007, 05:44 PM
Skip,

I answered your question.

Now you answer mine. That was no answer.


John Smith

Paul Smith
August 2nd, 2007, 05:45 PM
[QUOTE=Frank Thompson;102017] Paul Evil Smith has stated that until Dara has failed a drug test that its pointless to speculate. [QUOTE]

I don't ever recall saying that...I've had serious doubts (and expressed them) about a number of swimmers (USS & Masters) but have personally never witnessed anyone cheating.

Interesting that today while I was coaching an Olympic teammate of Dara's was at practice who also happens to be good friends with Jenny & Amy. Her position was also one of skepticism mainly because she saw all 3 of these girls go thru sever physical transformation over a short period of time leading up to Trails.....coincidentally they all seemed to do so while "out of competition" and most likely not being tested...however once again not first hand knowledge.

John.....glad to see you have finished moving, finished a good git of remodeling and found time to come back and fan the flames here....God forbid you might actually be getting back in the pool as well?

TheGoodSmith
August 2nd, 2007, 05:49 PM
Evil One,

Do tell us how Dara was able to beat your time from Stanford last year in the 100m free yesterday....... :-)


John Smith

The Fortress
August 2nd, 2007, 05:51 PM
Skip,

I answered your question.

Now you answer mine. That was no answer.


John Smith

He can't give an answer without speculating and detests speculation.

I would note that everyone is entitled to their opinion, meaningless though it may be by scientific or legal standards. Opinions, by definition, cannot always be "proven."

TheGoodSmith
August 2nd, 2007, 05:51 PM
Evil One,

I propose a modern day Billy Jean King...vs.. Bobby Riggs match up between you and Dara in the 100m free. It's the perfect male vs. female match up.

I'll sell the tickets..... and laugh at your stroke the last 10 meters... :-) You can't let a girl beat you now.


John Smith

reachhigher
August 2nd, 2007, 05:52 PM
Wow...this thread is a very interesting read.

For me, I'm perfectly happy to give Torres the benefit of the doubt given her long track record of achievement combined with the fact that she has never tested positive for any banned substance. My reasons are twofold:
(1) Her story inspires me, and I don't want to deprive myself of that inspiration. Now, if there is clearcut evidence that she's doping, then I'll immediately change my view of her accordingly. But, if the best evidence is "C'mon, what are the odds she can swim that well?" - well, I'd like to believe she can swim that well - therein lies the inspiration! :) Am I drinking the Kool Aid - maybe. Even if I am, though - what harm is done? The only consequence is that I will have pushed myself further (and in my case, returned to swimming at all) because I believed her story. I think I can live with that consequence.
(2) With all things being equal, I'd rather give an athlete the benefit of the doubt that their achievement is the result of profitable hard work. It seems much worse to me to wrongly suspect an athlete of cheating... if Torres, or anyone else, is found to be doping, then there will be plenty of time to retract the benefit of the doubt.

That said, I also don't really care what anyone else thinks. I have no problem with people who want to be more suspicious or pessimistic.

BTW: am I the only one who would be perfectly happy with some Olympic relay golds? I think I'd see that as a reasonable indicator of swimming success, myself. ;)

Paul Smith
August 2nd, 2007, 06:00 PM
Evil One,

I propose a modern day Billy Jean King...vs.. Bobby Riggs match up between you and Dara in the 100m free. It's the perfect male vs. female match up.

I'll sell the tickets..... and laugh at your stroke the last 10 meters... :-) You can't let a girl beat you now.


John Smith

Oh Skinny One....now that you've wasted away to a paltry 179 lbs (and you don't have to change the size on your jeans ala Seinfeld)....you want to throw ME into a mix up with Dara? Listen.....I saw her arms....they make Saeger look like wimp!

By the way....how much does it piss you off that besides never reclaiming your 50 free record in the 40-44 bracket....I also have 200 more posts than you....sleep well tonight loser!

quicksilver
August 2nd, 2007, 06:12 PM
I don't find it hard to believe that Dara can still sprint after all these years.
She's 5'-11" tall, has the cardiovascular system of an uber athlete...and she's as strong as ever.


We may not see middle distance swimmers going as fast as their early days...but a 50 or 100 is a very short race in terms of maximal sustained effort.

When Gary Hall is still going strong in 10 years...do the torches and pitchforks come out as well?

Sam Perry
August 2nd, 2007, 06:20 PM
Skip,

Why do you care what I really think about Dara?

After all, I am merely and average "John Smith" on deck. My opinion is not significant.


John

Probably the truest quote I have read on here in about 5 years! :drink:

Sam Perry
August 2nd, 2007, 06:21 PM
...and she's as strong as ever.


That is the point of this debate.

Paul Smith
August 2nd, 2007, 06:23 PM
When Gary Hall is still going strong in 10 years...do the torches and pitchforks come out as well?

Quicksilver.....since when did legitimate questioning of super human feats become "torches and pitchforks"? Tell me something...do you still have this same kind of sympathetic, none questioning trust in other areas of your life...perhaps in political views?

Skepticism is a good thing.....personal attacks quite another so lets not blur the line.

And by the way....Gary's been the subject of speculation here as well....insulin for diabetics possibly effect on performance as I recall....and just as fun as this thread.

aquageek
August 2nd, 2007, 06:24 PM
Anyone else notice all it takes to get the Smith boys out of hibernation is a little dope (talking)? An eye witness account of quicky physical changes is something to consider, although not proof of anything.

Allen Stark
August 2nd, 2007, 06:47 PM
Does Dara look different,not that I've seen. She is essentially a professional athlete and has access to the most up to date training methods. My own experience is that with training as a relatively low priority my own times slowed little until my late 40s.I swam my 3rd fastest 50M BR at 46(though it was easier as I wasn't that fast in college,not a national qualifier or anything.)If I could do that with swimming a lower priority it seems a full time swimmer might be able to get a little faster than they were when younger.Maybe she is cheating,but her swims seem plausible to me.Maybe it was her suit(see fastskin pro thread.):dedhorse::dedhorse:

quicksilver
August 2nd, 2007, 07:10 PM
Tell me something...do you still have this same kind of sympathetic, none questioning trust in other areas of your life...perhaps in political views?
Skepticism is a good thing.....personal attacks quite another so lets not blur the line.


Hi Paul,

Can't talk politics on the forum...But yes I question everything.
Ever watch "loose change"?

Yeah the torch imagery was a bit much...
Breaking out the Dixie cups would have been a better analogy.

The Fortress
August 2nd, 2007, 07:46 PM
An eye witness account of quicky physical changes is something to consider, although not proof of anything.

Nope. I look one helluva lot different now than 2 years ago. Almost immediately upon starting masters swimming, my shoulders and back started growing. My kids joke that I'm on "roids." But I'm just on swimming. Personally, I wish swimming came without this side effect.

The fact that Dara stayed in such peak physical condition during her off years is a key factor, I think.

Frank Thompson
August 2nd, 2007, 08:20 PM
Skip,

I answered your question.

Now you answer mine. That was no answer.


John Smith

My answer is No I do not believe that USMS Masters swimmers are taking illegal subtances unless its proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I can't speculate as to whole population of USMS. Now the difference here is that we are talking about one person as opposed to an unknown group of swimmers in USMS. I did not suspect anybody at last years World Championships.

So your answer to my question was that you lean toward the articles conclusion and that Mr Busfield is correct in his assumptions and conclusions.

Frank Thompson
August 2nd, 2007, 08:34 PM
[QUOTE=Frank Thompson;102017] Paul Evil Smith has stated that until Dara has failed a drug test that its pointless to speculate. [QUOTE]

I don't ever recall saying that...I've had serious doubts (and expressed them) about a number of swimmers (USS & Masters) but have personally never witnessed anyone cheating.

Interesting that today while I was coaching an Olympic teammate of Dara's was at practice who also happens to be good friends with Jenny & Amy. Her position was also one of skepticism mainly because she saw all 3 of these girls go thru sever physical transformation over a short period of time leading up to Trails.....coincidentally they all seemed to do so while "out of competition" and most likely not being tested...however once again not first hand knowledge.

John.....glad to see you have finished moving, finished a good git of remodeling and found time to come back and fan the flames here....God forbid you might actually be getting back in the pool as well?

Paul:

Check #2, #3, and your response in #4, and my response in #5 in the link below.

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=5892&highlight=dara+torres

quicksilver
August 2nd, 2007, 08:52 PM
The fact that Dara stayed in such peak physical condition during her off years is a key factor, I think.Me too.

Many of today's elite masters swimmers are proof that age isn't slowing them down one bit.
(Maybe having kids will?) In Dara's case no. :agree:

Johnny Weissmuller went a 48 point 100 yd free when he was like 36 years old...without heavy training. Same times as his early 20's.
(He was quoted as saying that staying lean and limber was his secret.)

Paul Smith
August 2nd, 2007, 09:32 PM
Anyone else notice all it takes to get the Smith boys out of hibernation is a little dope (talking)? An eye witness account of quicky physical changes is something to consider, although not proof of anything.

Geek.....what really got John & my attention was a rumor that you had some insight into "legal" supplements being used by middle age men who are former triathlete bashers that are going over to the "dark side"? :rofl:

SwimStud
August 2nd, 2007, 09:32 PM
Me too.

Many of today's elite masters swimmers are proof that age isn't slowing them down one bit.
(Maybe having kids will?) In Dara's case no. :agree:

Johnny Weissmuller went a 48 point 100 yd free when he was like 36 years old...without heavy training. Same times as his early 20's.
(He was quoted as saying that staying lean and limber was his secret.)

Rubbish! All that swinging from the vines, and wrestling lions and crocodiles was heavy training ! :rofl:

Sam Perry
August 2nd, 2007, 09:34 PM
My answer is No I do not believe that USMS Masters swimmers are taking illegal subtances unless its proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I can't speculate as to whole population of USMS.

What is "illegal" in USMS swimming? I have never seen a list of "banned substances" I guess if some are on crack or heroin, that would be illegal. It is my OPINION that many probably take HGH, roids, whatever you want to call them. That is their problem, not mine. If they beat me in a race being on that stuff good for them, but last I looked it isn't illegal, ehtics are a whole different discssion.

For the record, my doctor prescribed HGH for me last year following my back surgery and the major muscle atrophy I had from the permanant nerve damage done to my leg. It made me a very aggressive person and I got off of it. It wasn't illegal and I would argue justified for my situation. I just didn't like how it made me feel. Now I just walk around with a stick for a left calf and constantly feel much weaker on that side of my body.

I don't think there is ever any "Beyond a resonable doubt" unless they admit to it. Look at Landis, Chinese Women, East German women, Michelle Smith, etc. If it was beyond a reasonable doubt, they would lose their medals like Rick Demont did for his travesty of taking asthma medicine. (Talk about injustice) By bringing up the Torres stuff doesn't mean anyone is accusing her of anything. It is a legitimate discussion because her accomplishments are probably one of the most (if not the most) extraordinary ones I have seen for ANY athlete over 40, let alone one who had a child a little over a year ago.

Anyway, we got the Smith's back on here, and some great Geek posts, so that is worth something... (not much, but something)

Paul Smith
August 2nd, 2007, 09:35 PM
[QUOTE=Paul Smith;102029][QUOTE=Frank Thompson;102017] Paul Evil Smith has stated that until Dara has failed a drug test that its pointless to speculate.

Paul:

Check #2, #3, and your response in #4, and my response in #5 in the link below.

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=5892&highlight=dara+torres

Fair enough...I have to admit I've changed my opinion a bit in the last year.

jaegermeister
August 2nd, 2007, 09:36 PM
Skepticism is always healthy. But cynicism is an attitude that leaves a stain.

No doubt some swimmers sometime have used illegal substances sometime. Some of them have probably had negative tests. But swimming is nowhere near as tainted as other sports. To make a comparison between cycling or pro baseball and swimming is just plain stupid because the motivations are so much different.

What's a bit disappointing is that you have to wade through an awful lot of disbelief and innuendo to find what factors could be in play to allow her to reach this level. Just to satisfy my compulsive tendencies, I'll try to summarize: sprint genes, sprint events, superior baseline talent, short break in training, core conditioning, improved coaching, financial independence, breastfeeding (who know what those hormones can do- no one's thought of that!), fast suits, and not to be overlooked what appears to be phenomenal motivation.

I don't think its naive to find her inspiring.

The Fortress
August 2nd, 2007, 09:46 PM
What is "illegal" in USMS swimming? I have never seen a list of "banned substances" I guess if some are on crack or heroin, that would be illegal. It is my OPINION that many probably take HGH, roids, whatever you want to call them. That is their problem, not mine. If they beat me in a race being on that stuff good for them, but last I looked it isn't illegal, ehtics are a whole different discussion.


Just curious, Sam, but why do you think that? Not that I'm surrounded by hundreds of elite masters swimmers 24/7, but offhand, I can't think of anyone that I think is taking drugs. Although I'm "skeptical" enough to suspect that some are somewhere, despite how "pathetic" GoodSmith says it would render them. Ego is omnipresent, as some girl points out.


Sorry about your back!

The Fortress
August 2nd, 2007, 09:47 PM
Fair enough...I have to admit I've changed my opinion a bit in the last year.

Why?

As to Geek, I also recall him saying he'd try any new hocus-pocus "potion."

Sam Perry
August 2nd, 2007, 10:03 PM
Just curious, Sam, but why do you think that? Not that I'm surrounded by hundreds of elite masters swimmers 24/7, but offhand, I can't think of anyone that I think is taking drugs. Although I'm "skeptical" enough to suspect that some are somewhere, despite how "pathetic" GoodSmith says it would render them. Ego is omnipresent, as some girl points out.


Sorry about your back!

Let's just say I have seen some "unnatural" looking 30, 40 and 50 year olds at meets during various National Championship. One in particular, I will not mention, but was literally glowing in the sun. That is usually a tell tale sign that they are doused in Coppertone, or on the juice according to a trainer I know who was with me that has dealt with it for many years.

Even if they aren't if they are kicking my butt at meets, I need to use that as an excuse! :laugh2:

Thanks for the sympathy on the back, it is hell dealing with it from time to time. Have had 4 surgeries.

SwimStud
August 2nd, 2007, 10:08 PM
Thanks for the sympathy on the back, it is hell dealing with it from time to time. Have had 4 surgeries.

Sam i am sure the swimming provides you much needed exercise and stability for the area. I only have 3 discs herniation prone...that's enough...keep up the fight!

The Fortress
August 2nd, 2007, 10:16 PM
Let's just say I have seen some "unnatural" looking 30, 40 and 50 year olds at meets during various National Championship. One in particular, I will not mention, but was literally glowing in the sun. That is usually a tell tale sign that they are doused in Coppertone, or on the juice according to a trainer I know who was with me that has dealt with it for many years.

Even if they aren't if they are kicking my butt at meets, I need to use that as an excuse! :laugh2:

Thanks for the sympathy on the back, it is hell dealing with it from time to time. Have had 4 surgeries.

I guess I need to get my butt to more national meets and scope out the competition! I haven't seen any glowers. I do know some awesome looking 40-50ish athletes though ... they train a lot. I think Quicksilver said somewhere that elite 40-50 somethings look like they are in their late 20s from the neck down. Now if they'd go to those "rejuvenation centers" ande's speculating about, maybe they'd look good from the neck up too? ;)

(4 surgeries? Can you still swim? Nerve damage --yikes. As for the muscle atrophy, have you looked in regenerative treatment? Keep fighting the good fight!)

SwimsWithAFist
August 2nd, 2007, 10:32 PM
That said, I also don't really care what anyone else thinks. I have no problem with people who want to be more suspicious or pessimistic.

BTW: am I the only one who would be perfectly happy with some Olympic relay golds? I think I'd see that as a reasonable indicator of swimming success, myself. ;)

Be careful there, newbie. Reasonable attitudes like that will not be tolerated on this forum! :drink:

Sam Perry
August 2nd, 2007, 11:15 PM
(4 surgeries? Can you still swim? Nerve damage --yikes. As for the muscle atrophy, have you looked in regenerative treatment? Keep fighting the good fight!)


Yes, I still swim, keeps me sane. Haven't swam in a meet since Nationals May of 2003 when it was in Arizona. My last surgery was in December of 2003 and I have been pretty discoraged to compete since then. I am seriously considering swimming in meets again this fall and SC Nats in Austin. I am swimming pretty well, but hard not to compare where I was before my last surgery. I did push a 1:07 LCM 100 Back yesterday, was pretty happy about that, but remember when I could do 1:04s just a few years ago.

Thanks for the encouragement, but no I haven't looked into "regenerative treatment" don't know what that is. Sounds like it could be fun though. ;)

White Buffalo
August 3rd, 2007, 01:42 AM
The variance in the current WR between a male and female is at least 5.15 seconds if you count Lenton's 52.99 draft 100 meter free next to Phelps in relation to Hoogie's 47.84. If you do not count the draft swim, it is greater than 5.5 seconds. If you look at the Master's WR for men 40 to 44 in the 100 meter freestyle, Rich Saeger (an Olympic Gold medalist), he is barely a second ahead of Ms. Torres. After next year it will probably be a half a second or .5.

The statistical probability of this is virtually impossible without drugs. These drugs do not have to be HGH, which is not tested for, as it could simply be insulin or an entire myraid of drugs that get by testing. The mantra that "I am tested and it was negative" rings hollow post the Tour de France. Of course there is no direct evidence, such as standing out in the rain. However, when inside and someone walks in soaking wet, the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that it is raining outside. Here is the short list of circumstantial evidence that it is raining:

-she never won an individual medal until age 33 at the 2000 Olympics ;
-she put on 20 pounds of lean muscle mass in a year before the 2000 Olympics;
-she is doing lifetime bests at age 40;
-she sat out 6 years from 2000 to 2006;
-she attributes her post 40 success to what?

The great thing in America is the freedom to believe what you want to believe. However, if she is doing this, why has no other male or female ever even approached this level of success (National Champion doing life time bests) after the age of 40 in a 100? Swimmers that post can hold onto their belief that she is clean, just like Barry Bonds whose head and feet grew in size incredibly in his late 30's due to HGH usage, but there is no doubt in my mind that she is not clean as she is using performance enhancing Drugs/ supplements beyond creatine.

aquageek
August 3rd, 2007, 04:55 AM
Geek.....what really got John & my attention was a rumor that you had some insight into "legal" supplements being used by middle age men who are former triathlete bashers that are going over to the "dark side"? :rofl:

Dark side and middle aged - that was a 1-2 sucker punch.

I take both flax seed and fish oil. Unlike Barry Bonds, it actually is flax seed oil.

quicksilver
August 3rd, 2007, 07:41 AM
A quote from The Australian News....

Even people 10 years younger than Torres will be delighted to learn her training program is dramatically different from that which took her to the Sydney Olympics. Her secret: less is more.

She weighs less than when she competed in Sydney and she is swimming about 5.5km each morning, five days a week (half the workload of most elite sprinters). She also does four strength and conditioning sessions a week, three stretching sessions (which last two hours each) and has two massages.

"The older I get, the less I do, the faster I go," Torres says.

She is 4kg lighter than she was in 2000, having lost most of the muscle bulk she built then with heavy weightlifting.

"I am lean now," she explains. "The strength work I do a lot is with the Swiss ball, working a lot of different muscles at once, working my core and rotation. I have abs you wouldn't believe. Because I don't have as much muscle, I think I swim higher in the water than I used to."

Torres's results have drawn doping allegations, which she understands and is prepared to openly address.

She faced those same insinuations in her previous groundbreaking comeback, so she knows they will resurface. She has asked US head coach Mark Schubert to organise extra drug testing, including blood testing, so she can answer the doubters.

"It's too bad that people assume someone is taking drugs when they perform well, but I am getting tested frequently so there is no question about my performance," she says.

One of the world's foremost swimming experts, Milt Nelms, does not question that Torres can be a better swimmer at 40 than she was at 20. He has watched his own partner, 1972 triple Olympic gold medallist Shane Gould, reproduce in her 40s what she did as a teenage wunderkind.

Nelms, who has worked with Olympic champions Ian Thorpe and Natalie Coughlin, believes Torres will help push back the boundaries for athletes and weekend warriors.

"The age thing is something we say and it's self-fulfilling," he says. "If you look at swimming, there's nothing really explosive about it, and if you have an innate ability it doesn't diminish that greatly (over time).

"It's so much more about the nervous system, and what a 40-year-old person has is experience and physical intelligence, especially someone like Dara, who has taken care of herself and stayed active. Her two periods out of competition probably allowed her nervous system to restore itself from the impact of training.

"Dara is physically gifted and very physically intelligent, and her capacity for work and self-discipline are exceptional. Even among professional athletes she's in the extraordinary class. She's one tough lady."

Nicole Jeffery is a senior sports writer with The Australian.

aquageek
August 3rd, 2007, 08:46 AM
Haven't swam in a meet since Nationals May of 2003 when it was in Arizona.

I went to this meet also. I was astonished by the amazing physiques there. I never once thought about doping but, man o man, you see some incredibly fit people at Nationals. It was very inspiring. Someone did steal my dingy old USMS t-shirt while I was warming up. It was probably a Smith.

I went to Costco last week to load up on my supplement habit. As opposed to Nationals, Costco is not a place where you find a very fit crowd.

IndyGal
August 3rd, 2007, 08:53 AM
A quote from The Australian News....

[/SIZE][/B][B][SIZE=1]She is 4kg lighter than she was in 2000, having lost most of the muscle bulk she built then with heavy weightlifting.


She was signing autographs last night and I can verify that she's tiny in person. The people in line behind me were commenting on it too. She's certainly fit, of course, but there's no sign of any extra 20 lbs of muscle.

tjburk
August 3rd, 2007, 08:58 AM
Anybody here ever see Beth McGee swim? She is swimming some fantastic times....she's fit and looks it....Hard work does pay off!

gull
August 3rd, 2007, 09:25 AM
Great thread. Just a few thoughts:

As a physician, I do not believe it can be done legally. Sorry, but the aging process does not discriminate.

It's been said that the "science" of doping is so sophisticated now that the only ones who get caught are either careless or stupid.

And finally, I guarantee there are Masters swimmers who are juiced. It's human nature.

SwimStud
August 3rd, 2007, 09:31 AM
I went to Costco last week to load up on my supplement habit. As opposed to Nationals, Costco is not a place where you find a very fit crowd.

LOL
You have to be careful not to get killed in a stampede for a free sample of something thy're hawking.

If you're ever in the CT or Westchester area areound thanksgiving or Christmas check out Stew Leonard's...People literally panic that they won't get a free sample...

FlyQueen
August 3rd, 2007, 09:31 AM
Good for her. I don't think I should be personally attacked for thinking that it's possible for her to be doing this without dopping. I hope the quality of the work she is doing (sounds similar to Lezak who is in his 30s so must also be dopping, roght) puts her back onto an Olympic team.

I also do not think swimmers that "only" earn relay medals are slackers/not good/slow/etc. IF you follow that logic - Brendan Hansen isn't that great at breaststroke because he was "only" able to win gold on the relay in Athens, Kaitlin Sandeno "only" won a relay gold (never mind that silver in the 400IM and bronze) and of course Jenny Thompson, man she really sucked.

Also get your facts straight before you claim to be faster than someone, becuase I am certain that it depends on the stroke.

some_girl
August 3rd, 2007, 09:43 AM
I don't see how you can possibly argue that winning only relay medals is as good as winning individual ones. It's nothing to be ashamed of, but that is not the question.

Anyway, you might want to check out who began the personal attacks.

SwimStud
August 3rd, 2007, 09:43 AM
She was signing autographs last night and I can verify that she's tiny in person. The people in line behind me were commenting on it too. She's certainly fit, of course, but there's no sign of any extra 20 lbs of muscle.

OK--on 'roids and appearance:As a former serious weight lifter (hence 3 degenterated discs) I spent much time with guys who were openly using "gear" in th form of pills, creams and jabs: the works...wherever and however they needed to.

One of the ways to see evidence of steroid abuse is in the development of the traps. If they arc really high and look thick, that is an effect of supplement use. You cannon grown and thicken your traps like that without "dabbling." When you're off they go away...so does the power. Gains from "gear" cannot be held over the long term when you come off. Hence cycles and the need for spot checking with unannounced test.
For the record the anser is no--I didn't. I like my internal organs in the shape they are meant to be and remainin within my body.

I know Geek will likely be on faster than Ben Johnson got to the finish line to shoot me down on the above point but, this is what my own experience has shown me not a book or a web page. I guess you can "take it or leave it" as he put it.

Dara doesn't have bulging traps, and yes I know that doesn't rule out other things. :2cents:

SwimStud
August 3rd, 2007, 09:48 AM
And finally, I guarantee there are Masters swimmers who are juiced. It's human nature.
Does this explain Geek's confrontational demeanor? :banana::wave:

Jokes aside:

Gull, devil's advocate time: are there things such as outlyers? HIV infected folks who don't test positive in the usual time frame? People who are given 3 months who go on living for years. It could happen, no?

TheGoodSmith
August 3rd, 2007, 10:20 AM
The variance in the current WR between a male and female is at least 5.15 seconds if you count Lenton's 52.99 draft 100 meter free next to Phelps in relation to Hoogie's 47.84. If you do not count the draft swim, it is greater than 5.5 seconds. If you look at the Master's WR for men 40 to 44 in the 100 meter freestyle, Rich Saeger (an Olympic Gold medalist), he is barely a second ahead of Ms. Torres. After next year it will probably be a half a second or .5.

-she never won an individual medal until age 33 at the 2000 Olympics ;
-she put on 20 pounds of lean muscle mass in a year before the 2000 Olympics;
-she is doing lifetime bests at age 40;
-she sat out 6 years from 2000 to 2006;
-she attributes her post 40 success to what?


White Buffalo....... you will never convince those who just want to believe.


John Smith

The Fortress
August 3rd, 2007, 10:22 AM
White Buffalo....... you will never convince those who just want to believe.


Here's a timely article from today's Washington Post, written by Sally Jenkins, Lance biographer and Bonds hater. It's entitled, "Winning, Cheating Have Ancient Roots." She discusses the topic of legalizing performance enhancing drugs, but says it won't happen because people prefer "illusion to reality." Not to mention that it would give a serious edge to those with "boatloads" of money.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/02/AR2007080202497.html?sub=AR

SwimStud
August 3rd, 2007, 10:34 AM
White Buffalo....... you will never convince those who just want to believe.


John Smith

That's probably the best summation John. Belief: in honesty and in people. Some call it naivety etc. I don't know for sure, but each are entitiled to their view.

To me it's like trying to prove, iron-clad, the existence or non-existnece of a Deity. I don't know for sure, but each are entitiled to their view.

We can see how easily tempers fray and acrimony arises when opposing camps try to "prove" their view is right.

Debate is good...name calling, not so much.

TheGoodSmith
August 3rd, 2007, 10:34 AM
In the end, there's really no difference between taking performance enhancing drugs and wearing fins in a race. It's artificial.... and its cheating.

Legalize drugs for athletes if you want....... just make sure you put an asterisk next to their names in the record books.



John Smith

SwimStud
August 3rd, 2007, 10:36 AM
In the end, there's really no difference between taking performance enhancing drugs and wearing fins in a race. It's artificial.... and its cheating.

Legalize drugs for athletes if you want....... just make sure you put an asterisk next to their names in the record books.

John Smith

The problem is someone will still try to hide it to not get an asterisk. Even "clean" bodybuilding competitions are won by a guy who got around the tests.

Paul Smith
August 3rd, 2007, 11:34 AM
Why?

Fort....Balco, MLB, NFL, NBA, Mandatory drug testing for high school football in Texas, Tour de France, a friend who saw first hand an elite masters swimmer using HGH, performances that as White Buffalo details just don't seem to make sense....I don't feel I've gotten cynical so much as just accepted that there is far more usage going on that we would like t believe and it seems to be growing.

Sam Perry
August 3rd, 2007, 11:37 AM
Just to lighten the mood here, check out this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LrCGYtFAQ2U

and this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DLTYwDTxxCw&mode=related&search=
(Pardon the language)

P.S. White Buffalo, got to know about your name. Is it a reference to Ted Nugent's song? (Awesome if it is, gottal love the Motor City Madman)

P.S.S. Geek, Amen to the Costco reference. I love going to the supplements section and seeing 300 pound plus people gettig "fit".

scyfreestyler
August 3rd, 2007, 12:10 PM
A quote from The Australian News....



[/SIZE][/B]One of the world's foremost swimming experts, Milt Nelms, does not question that Torres can be a better swimmer at 40 than she was at 20. He has watched his own partner, 1972 triple Olympic gold medallist Shane Gould, reproduce in her 40s what she did as a teenage wunderkind.

Nelms, who has worked with Olympic champions Ian Thorpe and Natalie Coughlin, believes Torres will help push back the boundaries for athletes and weekend warriors.

"The age thing is something we say and it's self-fulfilling," he says. "If you look at swimming, there's nothing really explosive about it, and if you have an innate ability it doesn't diminish that greatly (over time).

"It's so much more about the nervous system, and what a 40-year-old person has is experience and physical intelligence, especially someone like Dara, who has taken care of herself and stayed active. Her two periods out of competition probably allowed her nervous system to restore itself from the impact of training.

"Dara is physically gifted and very physically intelligent, and her capacity for work and self-discipline are exceptional. Even among professional athletes she's in the extraordinary class. She's one tough lady."

Nicole Jeffery is a senior sports writer with The Australian.


Sounds logical.

The Fortress
August 3rd, 2007, 12:13 PM
I can verify that she's tiny in person. The people in line behind me were commenting on it too. She's certainly fit, of course, but there's no sign of any extra 20 lbs of muscle.

Tiny? ROFLMAO. Anyone who's 5'11" with her statuesque physique is not "tiny." I don't think pure size is the only indicator of drug use though.

Tracy:

Beth McGee is awesome! Yes! :cheerleader: And she works hard. But her times, stellar though they are, illustrate the difference between an elite masters athlete and an elite world ranked USA athlete. There's just a gap. Beth isn't a "professional" either, of course. I'm sure she, like the rest of us, would be faster with personal strength and conditioning trainers and round the clock massages. Man, I could really use one right now.

So "innate ability" doesn't diminish over time? That's rather vague. I would think "ability," just like other things, would diminish at least somewhat over time?

SwimStud
August 3rd, 2007, 12:29 PM
So "innate ability" doesn't diminish over time? That's rather vague. I would think "ability," just like other things, would diminish at least somewhat over time?

But techinque can be refined and perfected...:laugh2:

scyfreestyler
August 3rd, 2007, 12:45 PM
So "innate ability" doesn't diminish over time? That's rather vague. I would think "ability," just like other things, would diminish at least somewhat over time?

I think that one needs to really break down what is being discussed here. If we are talking about strength and flexibility/mobility then I have no doubt that she can regain equal levels of these abilities at 40, especially considering the fact that she has maintained a high level of fitness and not had a real break per se.

As for cardiovascular capacity, I don't really know for sure. Can somebody provide specific information as to why a 40 year olds cardiovascular system will not permit them (naturally) to swim the times that Dara is swimming?

Technique is something that can obviously be learned and improved at any age so that is a non-issue.

Regarding drugs...is the concern that she used drugs to enhance her strength as she began her comeback? Does a 40 year old really need drugs to develop the strength she has? My guess would be no.

SwimStud
August 3rd, 2007, 01:01 PM
I think that one needs to really break down what is being discussed here. If we are talking about strength and flexibility/mobility then I have no doubt that she can regain equal levels of these abilities at 40, especially considering the fact that she has maintained a high level of fitness and not had a real break per se.

As for cardiovascular capacity, I don't really know for sure. Can somebody provide specific information as to why a 40 year olds cardiovascular system will not permit them (naturally) to swim the times that Dara is swimming?

Technique is something that can obviously be learned and improved at any age so that is a non-issue.

Regarding drugs...is the concern that she used drugs to enhance her strength as she began her comeback? Does a 40 year old really need drugs to develop the strength she has? My guess would be no.

My cardiovascular rating was very high when I had it tested a few years back. I had the lungs of a 16 year old. I was in my mid 20's..admittedly still young but the capacity was above average. My grandfather also had a very good cardiovasuclar system, he was so good at PT in the army in WWII they wanted him to say on and become and instructor. Even in later life his readings were very good--until emphysema set in during the later years. He always looked young for his age and was in great shape.
I just mention this as there are factors that can break the age barrier.

I like to leave the door open for the possibity of this being on the up and up. Regardless of logical assupmtions and statistics.

scyfreestyler
August 3rd, 2007, 01:06 PM
Age affects people in different ways. Some of this I suspect is due to lifestyle and some is due to genetics. I don't think it is fair to say that because Rich Saeger (is that the correct spelling? I have no clue who this guy is...only that he is apparently quite fast at any age.) can't replicate his youthful times that nobody else can either.

sluggo08
August 3rd, 2007, 01:33 PM
This is why Dara is not cheating. You only have to look at what there is to lose if she is caught:
1. That illustrious 28 year career? Down the drain, everything she ever accomplished would be blemished. All this to make another Olympic Team? I don't think so.

2. Child Services...you know if she is caught doping, it would have huge news coverage. And since at least until recently she was breastfeeding, that would be grounds for child neglect/abuse. Child Services tends to frown on this kind of stuff.

And you can't make the money argument either, there is not that much money behind a successful bid anyway....If we were talking millions, maybe.

The fact remains that Dara is one of the most gifted and technically solid swimmers is history. Since we have only scratched the surface on effeciency of humans in the water, it is definately possible.

And lastly for those of you that ask why other past talented swimmers could not do it, I would say many swimmers of the past relied to heavily on power and endurance vs technique. Power and Endurance diminish, Technique does not. I have seen many world class swimmers have poor technique, and they only last a few years and then voila! They are gone

TheGoodSmith
August 3rd, 2007, 01:36 PM
SCYfreestyler,

No one has ever done this in swimming.

She is the first.

If you don't like the Rich Saeger comparison.... then consider the Susan Vonder Lippe (Rapp) comparison. She's a multilple olympic team member as well.


Sluggo8:

Dara is won of the better female sprinters this country has produced..... but I would never say she is on of the "most gifted " swimmers. Those kinds of adjectives are reserved for individuals like Tracy Caulkins, Mary T., and Janet Evans.

John Smith

FlyQueen
August 3rd, 2007, 01:42 PM
I don't see how you can possibly argue that winning only relay medals is as good as winning individual ones. It's nothing to be ashamed of, but that is not the question.

Anyway, you might want to check out who began the personal attacks.

I never claimed relay medals and individual medals were the same, but you seemed to knock her for "only" having won relay golds. I think making the Olympic team is a huge accomplishment and I'd take a relay medal of any color. Relay medals to me show the depth of the country and take four (to eight) people to win - no one can really slack.

I feel like I was personally attacked first and certainly more viciously. I think we should ALL drop the personal attacks. This is all opinion based afterall. No one should be told they are an idiot for believing what they want.

FlyQueen
August 3rd, 2007, 01:48 PM
SCYfreestyler,

No one has ever done this in swimming.

She is the first.

If you don't like the Rich Saeger comparison.... then consider the Susan Vonder Lippe (Rapp) comparison. She's a multilple olympic team member as well.


Sluggo8:

Dara is won of the better female sprinters this country has produced..... but I would never say she is on of the "most gifted " swimmers. Those kinds of adjectives are reserved for individuals like Tracy Caulkins, Mary T., and Janet Evans.

John Smith



Mr. Smith my return argument would be that none of those three swam sprints or were at least true sprinters. I think the sprints are the hardest to win and dominate. Tracy Caulkins is in a league of her own, one I think Katie Hoff has the potentital to be in as well. Mary T is also unreal. If she could replicate her times she could be on the team, too. She's a couple years older than Dara. Janet was amazingly talented too. She was a true animal. The way she trained and swam is just amazing. I do think sprinting is entirely different though.

While I certainly wouldn't bet my life that Dara is clean. She is enormously talented and seems to come under suspicion everytime she swims. I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt. Until I see or hear about a positive drug test I'll stand by my beliefs.

some_girl
August 3rd, 2007, 01:53 PM
I never claimed relay medals and individual medals were the same, but you seemed to knock her for "only" having won relay golds. I think making the Olympic team is a huge accomplishment and I'd take a relay medal of any color. Relay medals to me show the depth of the country and take four (to eight) people to win - no one can really slack.

My point is that you can't achieve wunderkind status on relay medals. So I find the "she was so awesome, of course she can stay awesome" argument poor.


I feel like I was personally attacked first and certainly more viciously.

Because I questioned her medals, you got all "how many medals do you have?" I just used your own logic against you. If you don't like it, don't do it to other people.


I think we should ALL drop the personal attacks. This is all opinion based afterall. No one should be told they are an idiot for believing what they want.

What if I believe that thinking she is not doping makes someone an idiot? (Hypothetically, I mean.)

scyfreestyler
August 3rd, 2007, 01:57 PM
SCYfreestyler,

No one has ever done this in swimming.

She is the first.

If you don't like the Rich Saeger comparison.... then consider the Susan Vonder Lippe (Rapp) comparison. She's a multilple olympic team member as well.


John Smith


John, it's not that I don't like the comparison with Rich per se. The problem is that your sample pool is too small to yield results that are worthy of consideration. A few elite swimmers are not a representative sample of human abilities in general. Consider how many people might be out there right now with the physiological makeup to dominate swimming even moreso than our current crop of heroes. I would argue that looking only at swimmers is the easy comparison to make but it's not scientific by any stretch of the imagination.

As for firsts, is Phelps not the first to be as dominant as he is? Sure Spitz had his run at the Olympics but I don't think that really compares to what Phelps has done...especially looking at his Worlds performances this year. Looking at his backstroke this week at nationals it is not outside of reason to suspect that he might be holding the WR for that event sometimes soon as well. It's almost superhuman, no? I wonder what he is taking?

Not trying to be a jerk here John ( I leave that to Geek and Stud), I am just trying to convey a point. If somebody can provide some solid evidence as to why Dara's comeback is not humanly possible I will be glad to listen.

Matt

FlyQueen
August 3rd, 2007, 01:59 PM
My point is that you can't achieve wunderkind status on relay medals. So I find the "she was so awesome, of course she can stay awesome" argument poor.



Because I questioned her medals, you got all "how many medals do you have?" I just used your own logic against you. If you don't like it, don't do it to other people.



What if I believe that thinking she is not doping makes someone an idiot? (Hypothetically, I mean.)


You have lived in New York too long ...

scyfreestyler
August 3rd, 2007, 02:00 PM
What if I believe that thinking she is not doping makes someone an idiot? (Hypothetically, I mean.)

That would speak volumes about you as a person.

some_girl
August 3rd, 2007, 02:07 PM
That would speak volumes about you as a person.

I think you missed the joke.

SwimStud
August 3rd, 2007, 02:10 PM
Not trying to be a jerk here John ( I leave that to Geek and Stud), Matt
Not much Jerky...
:laugh2:
I'm only a jerk to Geek, and he loves it anyhow.
Being the devil's advocate and declaring myself thus is not jerky...

some_girl
August 3rd, 2007, 02:12 PM
You have lived in New York too long ...

Is it the cynicism or the standing up for myself part? Or the fast walking? The entertainment in arguing? The obvious rhetorical brilliance? The fact that I get better insults from the eighty-year-olds on the subway? God, I am so confused.

SwimStud
August 3rd, 2007, 02:17 PM
FQ/SG

Over the possibilty of someone unimportant to either of your lives you're going to fall out? You're both entitled to opinions neither is right until proven so. Don't let this topic start a feud.

:sad:

Yah I know this is a dangerous place to stand.

The Fortress
August 3rd, 2007, 02:18 PM
[quote=sluggo08;102108]Since we have only scratched the surface on eff[i[ciency of humans in the water ...[quote]


Is this really true? Only scratched the surface? I thought technique and efficiency were a huge focus now?

I guess just because her feats are superhuman doesn't necessarily make them humanly impossible. There could theoretically be genetic outliers. But even the doc says it's not possible. Most of the super fit people I know look amazing, but yet still notice ever so slight diminutions in strength and "ability" as they age. They also report that they do not recover from injuries as quickly or are more likely to incur injuries. This is, however, all anecdotal.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, folks, whether we are a player or not, whether we are fast or slow, or rich or poor, or whatever.

SwimStud
August 3rd, 2007, 02:26 PM
There could theoretically be genetic outliers. But even the doc says it's not possible.


There are genetic outliers...it is possible...maybe not probable...but possible.

Just remember there are "Lies, damned lies and statistics...."

:dedhorse:

aquageek
August 3rd, 2007, 02:27 PM
I think we've all been burned too many times on this type of scenario. Thus far, in this thread, no one has yet to name a single athlete that has done or is doing what she is either doing or may be about to do, not a single one. Maybe she is the 1 out of 4 billion or so who can do it and be the first ever and more power to her.

John Elway might be an example, although he never retired. Dale Ernhardt might be an example, although he died trying to keep up with the young ones (sorry, I live in Charlotte, have to throw in some Nascar). Maybe a case could be made for Muhammed Ali and George Forman, if you choose to put faith in boxing. Roger Clemens is a potential example, he's pretty awesome. But, the fact remains, there are carcasses of 40 something former elites all over the place (Barkley, Jordan, Randy Johnson, Spitz, Stud).

As she continues her incredible odyssey in the next year, don't come back all disenchanted when she says she uses "alternative, ground breaking training methods." That's your code word should you hear it.

As to little punk Stud, if I can figure out how to ride my new TRI BIKE (there you go Smiths), I'm gonna find him and run him over - shouldn't be hard given his average speed of movement.

FlyQueen
August 3rd, 2007, 02:27 PM
Is it the cynicism or the standing up for myself part? Or the fast walking? The entertainment in arguing? The obvious rhetorical brilliance? The fact that I get better insults from the eighty-year-olds on the subway? God, I am so confused.

I'm all for agreeing to disagree and was trying to get away from personal attacks and go back to the basis of the thread. If you think I'm going to sit by and get attacked you have another thing coming. I am entitled to think what I want to think that in no way gives you the right to insult me for being optimistic. I was not the only one that asked how many Olympic medals do you have - which I intended to speak more to the fact that Dara has 9 of them - rather than to start a let's compare times thread.

I question people that all of a sudden pull of amazing times more than those that have always had tons of talent and swum fast. I believe in innocent until proven guilty especially in instances like these. I do not think that she is doping for plenty of reasons, and even if I had no real thoughts to back it up who cares. I get think what I want.

PS - it's the cynicism. I walk fast.

FlyQueen
August 3rd, 2007, 02:29 PM
I think we've all been burned too many times on this type of scenario. Thus far, in this thread, no one has yet to name a single athlete that has done or is doing what she is either doing or may be about to do, not a single one. Maybe she is the 1 out of 4 billion or so who can do it and be the first ever and more power to her.

John Elway might be an example, although he never retired. Dale Ernhardt might be an example, although he died trying to keep up with the young ones (sorry, I live in Charlotte, have to throw in some Nascar). Maybe a case could be made for Muhammed Ali and George Forman, if you choose to put faith in boxing. Roger Clemens is a potential example, he's pretty awesome. But, the fact remains, there are carcasses of 40 something former elites all over the place (Barkley, Jordan, Randy Johnson, Spitz, Stud).

As she continues her incredible odyssey in the next year, don't come back all disenchanted when she says she uses "alternative, ground breaking training methods." That's your code word should you hear it.

As to little punk Stud, if I can figure out how to ride my new TRI BIKE (there you go Smiths), I'm gonna find him and run him over - shouldn't be hard given his average speed of movement.



Geek, how many have really tried?

The Fortress
August 3rd, 2007, 02:33 PM
Thus far, in this thread, no one has yet to name a single athlete that has done or is doing what she is either doing or may be about to do, not a single one. Maybe she is the 1 out of 4 billion or so who can do it and be the first ever and more power to her.

As she continues her incredible odyssey in the next year, don't come back all disenchanted when she says she uses "alternative, ground breaking training methods." That's your code word should you hear it.

This is correct. She would be the only one. To get back to basics.

As to unique training methods, I'm not sure what I think about that. Sprinters can/do train much differently. But the "less is more" motto seems to be an overstatement. She's doing a lot of strength and core training and high quality sprint work. That's great. But, still, everyone else is, to quote Phelps from the other night, putting in "hard work" in the pool. She's certainly working hard ... what's with the 2 hours of stretching per day? Not sure if I believe that's the source of the fountain of youth ... although I think she has stressed that she believes it makes a huge difference.

SwimStud
August 3rd, 2007, 02:33 PM
As to little punk Stud, if I can figure out how to ride my new TRI BIKE (there you go Smiths), I'm gonna find him and run him over - shouldn't be hard given his average speed of movement.

Will Mrs Geek allow you to leave your block (since Maryland is a little far for her little soldier to travel) or will you just ride in the driveway in case I happen by?

It'll be a dizzying triathalon...you swim in a kiddie pool, circles in the driveway on the bike (don't forget the bell *ting-a-ling*) then running laps around the house...
:lmao:

scyfreestyler
August 3rd, 2007, 02:35 PM
You two..... :rolleyes:

aquageek
August 3rd, 2007, 02:40 PM
Geek, how many have really tried?

Um, every single one I mentioned. Do you live under a sport's rock?

scyfreestyler
August 3rd, 2007, 02:41 PM
This whole argument is about human physiology in my opinion. By limiting our scope to elite athletes we are looking at such a small piece of the human population pie that it's obscene. I realize this seems to be the only thing to really compare to but are the conclusions drawn from such comparisons valuable? No would be my answer. We must realize that amongst the population there are likely thousands upon thousands of people with the potential to be world class athletes if they chose to develop themselves in the correct sport. This whole idea of comparing Dara to the sports icons in our heads is a gross oversimplification of a much more complex issue.

ande
August 3rd, 2007, 02:44 PM
while Saeger is a great swimmer,
I agree that comparing him to Dara isn't accurate

Dara went 54.4 in the 100 LCM free
the womens world record is 53.30

for a man to do what Dara has done,
he would need to be 40 and swim the 100 LCM free around 48.8
Rich went 53, which is a far cry from 48.8

In the coming years, the first man who might be capable of such a feat is Neil Walker. Since he is one of the older Olympic level athletes who is still training hard. There aren't very many athletes who could retire for 4, 5, or 6 years then make the kind of remarkable comeback that Dara made.

I don't know if Neil plans on retiring after 2008.

A

FlyQueen
August 3rd, 2007, 02:49 PM
Um, every single one I mentioned. Do you live under a sport's rock?

No, I live in the Chicago area thank you. How many of those can really be compared to Dara. To have walked away for 6-7 years, but stayed in great shape. Then try to come back. There may be some real phsyical benefits in the breaks she takes so her body can heal. Also comparing it basketball players that never left or even those that did is still not valid in my mind because the pounding up and down the court takes it's toll. There's also a lot more traveling involved. Basketball cannot really be compared to sprinting 50s and 100s.

Elway is different too because of the toll football takes on your body. More so for linemen than quarterbacks, but still. It's a lot more brutal than swimming.

The possible best other sport comparison might be baseball. Clemens is unreal, too. Again though the constant traveling has an effect, too. I think that is a big part of what wears pro athletes out.

The Fortress
August 3rd, 2007, 02:50 PM
Maybe women are just superior and age better than men? :mooning:

Clemens is a maniac. A fitness nut and a huge weightlifter. His bulk and dedication probably saved those itsy bitsy RCs from earlier ruin.

Didn't Torres have shoulder problems that made her minimize fly time in the water? How did she get over her shoulder issues?

ande
August 3rd, 2007, 02:55 PM
who is the enigmatic White Buffalo?



The variance in the current WR between a male and female is at least 5.15 seconds if you count Lenton's 52.99 draft 100 meter free next to Phelps in relation to Hoogie's 47.84. If you do not count the draft swim, it is greater than 5.5 seconds. If you look at the Master's WR for men 40 to 44 in the 100 meter freestyle, Rich Saeger (an Olympic Gold medalist), he is barely a second ahead of Ms. Torres. After next year it will probably be a half a second or .5.

The statistical probability of this is virtually impossible without drugs. These drugs do not have to be HGH, which is not tested for, as it could simply be insulin or an entire myraid of drugs that get by testing. The mantra that "I am tested and it was negative" rings hollow post the Tour de France. Of course there is no direct evidence, such as standing out in the rain. However, when inside and someone walks in soaking wet, the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that it is raining outside. Here is the short list of circumstantial evidence that it is raining:

-she never won an individual medal until age 33 at the 2000 Olympics ;
-she put on 20 pounds of lean muscle mass in a year before the 2000 Olympics;
-she is doing lifetime bests at age 40;
-she sat out 6 years from 2000 to 2006;
-she attributes her post 40 success to what?

The great thing in America is the freedom to believe what you want to believe. However, if she is doing this, why has no other male or female ever even approached this level of success (National Champion doing life time bests) after the age of 40 in a 100? Swimmers that post can hold onto their belief that she is clean, just like Barry Bonds whose head and feet grew in size incredibly in his late 30's due to HGH usage, but there is no doubt in my mind that she is not clean as she is using performance enhancing Drugs/ supplements beyond creatine.

SwimStud
August 3rd, 2007, 02:57 PM
No, I live in the Chicago area thank you. How many of those can really be compared to Dara. To have walked away for 6-7 years, but stayed in great shape. Then try to come back. There may be some real phsyical benefits in the breaks she takes so her body can heal. Also comparing it basketball players that never left or even those that did is still not valid in my mind because the pounding up and down the court takes it's toll. There's also a lot more traveling involved. Basketball cannot really be compared to sprinting 50s and 100s.

Elway is different too because of the toll football takes on your body. More so for linemen than quarterbacks, but still. It's a lot more brutal than swimming.

The possible best other sport comparison might be baseball. Clemens is unreal, too. Again though the constant traveling has an effect, too. I think that is a big part of what wears pro athletes out.

There have been a number of football players over the years in the UK play into the late 30's. Whilst not a brutal game...there is certainly a heck of a lot of wear and tear...these older guys have all had one thing in common and that's the dedication to training and extra rest....so I think if you stay on top of your training you have a shot...again tough to cross compare sports in such a way.

tjburk
August 3rd, 2007, 03:01 PM
Will Mrs Geek allow you to leave your block (since Maryland is a little far for her little soldier to travel) or will you just ride in the driveway in case I happen by?

It'll be a dizzying triathalon...you swim in a kiddie pool, circles in the driveway on the bike (don't forget the bell *ting-a-ling*) then running laps around the house...
:lmao:

Now that's funny......I don't care who you are......that's funny!!!!

Picture Geek riding up and down his driveway!!!!!!:lmao::lmao::lmao:

tjburk
August 3rd, 2007, 03:03 PM
If you're going to bring in Baseball.....one name stands out......Nolan Ryan!!! How old was he when he threw his seventh no-hitter? 44 And then how old was he when he retired? 46

The Fortress
August 3rd, 2007, 03:03 PM
This whole argument is about human physiology in my opinion. By limiting our scope to elite athletes we are looking at such a small piece of the human population pie that it's obscene. I realize this seems to be the only thing to really compare to but are the conclusions drawn from such comparisons valuable? No would be my answer. We must realize that amongst the population there are likely thousands upon thousands of people with the potential to be world class athletes if they chose to develop themselves in the correct sport. This whole idea of comparing Dara to the sports icons in our heads is a gross oversimplification of a much more complex issue.

Fair enough. Then who do we compare her against? Ourselves? LOL. Hypothetical unknowns? Geek? Ande? You've at least got to look at other "professionals."

Nolan Ryan was amazing! I think he was 42 when he retired. He got better with age, more control.

aquageek
August 3rd, 2007, 03:11 PM
This is the best row we've had since watching Stud's backstroke starts and turns on youtube.com.

Back to the program. OK, so queen says we can't compare to other ultra elite athletes who've attempted a comeback at the same age. We also can't compare to other athletes in general because they represent a tiny group in a huge population. That leaves us to compare to humanity as a whole. That's invalid because most folks don't have what it takes to train, dedicate, etc to a lifestyle that gets you to the elite level. Even if they do, 99.99% of those that try won't get to the elite level. So, this brings you back to the obvious comparison to other elite athletes, the only logical pool by which to compare.

BTW - it took me 30 minutes to figure out how to pump up those super skinny tires.

The Fortress
August 3rd, 2007, 03:13 PM
BTW - it took me 30 minutes to figure out how to pump up those super skinny tires.

That's because our mental abilities, like our physical abilities, decline with age.

SwimStud
August 3rd, 2007, 03:18 PM
This is the best row we've had since watching Stud's backstroke starts and turns on youtube.com.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIYza8xPlLc For those who missed it and want in on Geek's funny! Even though you might suspect it...I wasn't doping!


BTW - it took me 30 minutes to figure out how to pump up those super skinny tires.

Wow, next time just try orally filling them with some that hot air you're full of...

:party2::party2::party2:

ande
August 3rd, 2007, 03:19 PM
not me, I'd need to be much faster.
Dara is probably faster than me

I'd be thrilled to go 54.4 in the 100 free

how do you quantify how great a baseball player is
Base ball players don't have to drag their bodies through the water

Ande


Fair enough. Then who do we compare her against? Ourselves? Hypothetical unknowns? Geek? Ande?

Nolan Ryan was amazing! I think he was 42 when he retired. He got better with age, more control.

The Fortress
August 3rd, 2007, 03:24 PM
not me, I'd need to be much faster.
Dara is probably faster than me

I'd be thrilled to go 54.4 in the 100 free

how do you quantify how great a baseball player is
Base ball players don't have to drag their bodies through the water

Ande

Well, in Ryan's and Clemen's cases, they were winning Cy Youngs at 40 based on amazing won-loss records and low ERAs, which is pretty damn impressive. Seemingly at least somewhat comparable in deed to winning the 100 free at Nats.

aquageek
August 3rd, 2007, 03:27 PM
It's good to see you have balanced that bizarre affection for Valentine's poetry with good ole fashioned baseball stats, still the best game going, despite hop head Barry.

The Fortress
August 3rd, 2007, 03:32 PM
The sad thing about being unprofessionally consumed by swimming is that I don't have time for my fantasy baseball league anymore. It's really put me out ...

I'm off now to partake in the joys of MF-ing and sprinting. Carry on the bickerfest.

FlyQueen
August 3rd, 2007, 03:33 PM
Geek - you are correct I do not think we can compare Dara to any other athletes. Jenny Thompson perhaps. Jenny came back after a few years off to swim darn fast. She was ONLY in her early 30s though.

aquageek
August 3rd, 2007, 03:40 PM
Geek - you are correct I do not think we can compare Dara to any other athletes.

Ooh, we had another poster who had this exact same sentiment, but his name is banned forever. Good company to keep.

Rob Copeland
August 3rd, 2007, 03:50 PM
The statistical probability of this is virtually impossible without drugs.You’ve obviously done the math here, so hopefully you can help us out… If it is statistically impossible at age 40 to be a clean elite swimmer, then what is the age does this statistically impossibility occur? Could a 30 year old swimmer be elite? How about 31? Do I hear 33? Where exactly is the statistical tipping point?

Also, is it beyond the realm of possibility that a number of elite athletes are using “legal” performance enhancing drugs and supplements? With legal being defined as not banned by WADA. Supplements such as creatine, Muscle Milk, Gatorade, flax seed, fish oil, vitamin E, soda, amino acid…

Is using legal supplements cheating? And where are the grey areas within “legal”? For example I personally believe that creatine should be banned and that anyone who has used it has cheated, but I believe that for example fish oil shouldn’t be banned and people who use it to enhance performance aren’t cheating.

Should all the creatine users/abusers be vilified as cheaters for using a performance enhancing drug? Maybe, but I hope not, since after all it is legal.

scyfreestyler
August 3rd, 2007, 03:52 PM
not me, I'd need to be much faster.
Dara is probably faster than me

I'd be thrilled to go 54.4 in the 100 free

how do you quantify how great a baseball player is
Base ball players don't have to drag their bodies through the water

AndeThat's an argument for another day.

tjburk
August 3rd, 2007, 03:53 PM
You make a very good point Rob.

Some of the substances that supposedly Bonds used were not illegal at the time they were supposedly used.......

So, do we make them illegal retroactively?

quicksilver
August 3rd, 2007, 03:54 PM
who is the enigmatic White Buffalo?

This should bring you up to speed ande.

It's very interesting. But I still would like to believe that Dara's time were done au naturale.
How many of us know or have seen a 40+ masters competitor swim a sprint race very very close to their college times?

Rich Abrahams used to smoke up to 2 packs a day in his his 30's according to an interview not too long ago.
In his late 50's he was going 21 again for the 50 yard free. Obviously the smoking enhanced his lung capacity. Not.
(No offense intended to Rich if he reads this.) He's a great example of old dudes kicking ass.


http://canuckswimmer.blogspot.com/2007/07/i-came-to-praise-torres-but-intend-to_28.html

tjburk
August 3rd, 2007, 04:00 PM
Quicksilver.....hope you were being sarcastic about the smoking thing!!!!
As a former 25+ year smoker....I find that is the hardest thing to get back.. lung capacity!!!!!

Rob Copeland
August 3rd, 2007, 04:01 PM
Thus far, in this thread, no one has yet to name a single athlete that has done or is doing what she is either doing or may be about to do, not a single one. How about Paul Tergat?

MAC swimmer
August 3rd, 2007, 04:04 PM
Look at Dara's arms!! She is an absolute beast--truly gifted. I would like to see her in the weight room...for several reasons.:p

Seriously though, she is a monster sprinter. I thought Jenny Thompson was muscular--Torres is supposedly 10 pounds lighter than in 2000 Olympics.

If I were those little 19 and 20 years olds, though I would be SO pissed!!! 2008 Trials means only two can go! Scary.

quicksilver
August 3rd, 2007, 04:05 PM
...I find that is the hardest thing to get back.. lung capacity!!!!!

I was being sarcastic. But yes this is all the more reason why it's remarkable to literally rise from the ashes!

aquageek
August 3rd, 2007, 04:19 PM
How about Paul Tergat?

I have to admit I don't know this person but I did google him. You might have a valid comparison here.

Noodles Romanoff
August 3rd, 2007, 04:23 PM
I have so many individual arguing golds I don't need swimming medals. Sorry Girl, but from what I’ve read none of your arguments are even close to making the finals, no where near medal contention. But keep trying, maybe with the right performance enhancers, you may qualify by the time you turn 40. :cane:

Now Geek, he is a perennial contender.Even at his advanced age.

imspoiled
August 3rd, 2007, 04:24 PM
Ok, I'm late to the discussion here, but this Scott guy brings up the "Less is More" strategy that Dara is using. Hasn't Natalie Coughlin been using that strategy for a while now? If I'm correct on that point, then perhaps it's possible to use multi-discipline training methods (yoga, weights, etc) and still achieve exceptional results. No one is accusing Natalie of dopping!

Why do we have to train in the water like crazy people? No one has ever accused me of being an elite athelete (really, it's true!), but as a masters swimmer I'm swimming some of the fastest times of my life in many events. Aside from asthma medicie, flax seed oil, & a multi-vitimin, I'm clean, even avoiding caffine on most days.

If the premise we're working from is one has to be dopping to improve performance after age 30, then how can my steadily improving performances in my middle thirties, after a 15 year hiatus, be explained?

Maybe Dara is just exceptional. Maybe no one her age has made a real good-faith effort to do what she's trying to do, which is why she has no peer group for comparison. (Ok, Susan VDL made trials cuts, but is she really training to make the team, or just to show people that it can be done?) And to be fair, maybe she's dopping. I, for one, would like to believe she's not.

Leonard Jansen
August 3rd, 2007, 04:29 PM
Saying that Dara Torres is dirty because she is "so far ahead of the curve" is fine. The problem is that that argument also, from a mathematical perspective, admits that there is a curve and therefore she could still be on it, a.k.a. an outlier. There IS precedence for this in the sports world. About 35 years ago, Jack Foster ran 2:11-something as an over 40 athlete - a time that rocked people back on their heels, myself included, especially since it came out of nowhere. (As a comparison, Frank Shorter's BEST ever time was, I think, 2:10:30.) If memory serves me, he was also on the New Zealand Olympic team after 40 and later did some astounding things in, I believe, orienteering. By all accounts he was the soul of honesty and just was at the extreme end of the curve. When he died, his son described him as "a machine for processing oxygen." No argument I've seen here negates the possibility that Torres is an outlier.
Secondly, she is only an outlier by current standards. In 20 years she may be closer to the norm. When Kathy Mills ran the 5k in 15:30 in 1975, everyone was astounded. Today it is common and even if you throw out suspected drug cheats, you still have plenty of women left. Also, how long has it been that any significant number of swimmers has even attempted to swim at the very top level past 30? Hell, past 25? How many people in total, really? (BTW, I knew Kathy quite well and she was oddest combination of sweet and tough in one package, but she was clean and then some. I still remember going for a 6 mile run with her one day and having her hurt me in ways that still make my legs ache. I prayed for death in the last mile. And then she hugged me and apologized profusely aftterward.)
Thirdly, perhaps Torres DOES have a better training (non-doping) method. Think of what Lydiard did in the late 50's earlier 60's with middle distance runners. Or what Hausleber did with racewalkers in the 1970's. Or what Counsilman did in general. No matter how cynical you are, these were all paradigmatic shifts in training philosophy. Do we have a detailed information about her training? If not, how can we rule out her doing it better?

I am not saying that she is clean/not clean. I have no proof either way. I am saying that there is precedence with an historical perspective.

-LBJ

gull
August 3rd, 2007, 04:41 PM
In the coming years, the first man who might be capable of such a feat is Neil Walker. Since he is one of the older Olympic level athletes who is still training hard. There aren't very many athletes who could retire for 4, 5, or 6 years then make the kind of remarkable comeback that Dara made.



Actually I was going to mention Neil Walker. To my knowledge he has never retired and at age 31 placed fourth in the 100 free at Nationals. He is an outstanding swimmer, but I do not believe that he could (legally) pull off what Dara has.

ALM
August 3rd, 2007, 05:03 PM
And finally, I guarantee there are Masters swimmers who are juiced. It's human nature.

I'm sure this is true. It's amazing what some people will do for perceived glory.

A few years ago there was a Masters swimmer who was stripped of a world record, after it was discovered that he had altered his birth certificate to make himself a year older. Read that again: he ALTERED HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE for a MASTERS record.

Now, outside of all of us, who even knows that world records for Masters swimming even exist? (How many people outside of us know that Masters swimming exists?)

It seems like a lot of effort for a small amount of fame. But if there's someone willing to go to that extreme, I'm sure there are Masters athletes willing to give drugs a try.

Anna Lea

TheGoodSmith
August 3rd, 2007, 05:03 PM
Actually, Neil has never taken 2 extended periods of retirement like Dara. Her 7 year or so break prior to her 2000 comeback and then this recent 7 year break since 2000. I don't think he would be a good comparison to Dara because of this. Taking years off like that results in muscle memory loss, aerobic loss, stroke timing issues and obvious strength loss such as in the weight room. That is a long time let the race car sit idle in the garage.

I don't know why so many people think that Dara has kept her self in great condition to benefit her swimming during these off years. Any top level coach will tell you, there is VERY little substitute for practicing swimming fast other than working out in the pool and SWIMMING FAST. She did not swim hard for years on end during her breaks which total around 13 years. I would submit to you that her inbetween retirement years are no more active or conditioning related than her peers her age at the USMS nationals.... probably less.

Look if age is irrelevant, why aren't numerous 40 year olds going seconds faster than the fastest 30 year old? There is a reason the USMS records GET SLOWER AS YOU GET OLDER.


John Smith

Paul Smith
August 3rd, 2007, 05:32 PM
Geek - you are correct I do not think we can compare Dara to any other athletes. Jenny Thompson perhaps. Jenny came back after a few years off to swim darn fast. She was ONLY in her early 30s though.

No mention yet by anyone of Gary Hall Jr.? He and Dara share quite about in common...not the least of which is their best event is the 50 not the 100.....interesting to see GHJ's 100 time fading...yet Dara goes a lifetime best....

All of this is fun and interesting speculation and a good debate.....but also very sad that the world of sports has forever lost its "innocence" and the reality is that everything will and....should be questioned because the cheats will always be ahead of the testers.

Geek.....next time try a pump to inflate those tires! :mooning:

The Fortress
August 3rd, 2007, 05:53 PM
I don't know why so many people think that Dara has kept her self in great condition to benefit her swimming during these off years. Any top level coach will tell you, there is VERY little substitute for practicing swimming fast other than working out in the pool and SWIMMING FAST. She did not swim hard for years on end during her breaks which total around 13 years.

I don't know about this. If she is so innately talented, maybe she's rusty at first, but snaps back quickly?

Much like ImSpoiled, I took 24 years off from swimming during which I did not get in a pool at all. After a year or so, I was doing pretty well in the sprint distances. And I'm just a regular old masters swimmer who stopped age group swimming at 19, not a Dara type by any stretch of the imagination. So imagine what she can do.

What is that flax seed oil supposed to do exactly? I know it's good for dry eye, but what else?

I agree with aul with the GHJ comparison. The 50 is one thing, but the 100 is another ...

ALM
August 3rd, 2007, 06:00 PM
From today's Kansas City Star...

Full article can be found here:
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/216607.html

Chemist stays out of the spotlight while he does his work to help baseball

"...Fifteen miles of concrete jungle from Dodger Stadium sits a two-story, brick building on the edge of Venice and Culver City that is home to the human growth hormone project.

While Bonds works in front of millions, the men in this office guard their location like a state secret. Their work is both hush-hush and prominent. The baseball world knows this team of scientists is working to develop a reliable urine test for HGH, but the details are intentionally kept private.

Their mission is to fight back against drug cheaters in sports — to make sure the next time one of baseball’s records goes down, there is no federal investigation, no talk of steroids.

Don Catlin is heading what he calls the “growth hormone project.” He’s 69 years old and among the world’s most respected chemists. His professional life’s current focus has everything to do with Bonds’ current record chase, and as Catlin speaks on the phone, he is a short drive from where Bonds is the focus of baseball...."

lefty
August 3rd, 2007, 06:02 PM
It is not unreasonable to think that Dara would have owned the record book if she had not been anorexic in her late teens/early 20's.

I would not compare Dara to any male swimmer: Sprinting for a man is about more about power, for women not so much. Dara did not pop off a 22 in the 50 as a 16 year old because she was strong.

If she is breast feeding and doping that would be just sad.

Elite athletes do not cheat for the money (at least it is low on the list). Having it or not having it neither absolves or proves anything (this has been the most useless issue to pop up in the thread).

bcm119
August 3rd, 2007, 06:07 PM
I'm inclined to agree with the enigmatic whitebuffalo; although I agree with many other posters here too: I would like to believe Dara is clean, although I think her performance suggests otherwise. The distinction between the 100 and 50 is a good one. To rip off a fast 50 due to strength training and excellent technique is one thing; to stay ahead of the rest of the field on the last 25m of a 100 is another.

One thing I'm curious about is how her training has changed over the years. Does anyone know what type of training she was doing 10-20 years ago? Was she a yardage hog? Has she recently subscribed to the "new school" of sprint training thought, exemplified by The Race Club type training philosophy? Just wondering. Even if this was true I'd have trouble believing that performance was clean, although I think its not completely impossible.

FlyQueen
August 3rd, 2007, 06:08 PM
Good Smith, the reason people bring up her keeping in great shape during her extended breaks is that it is much easier to get back into great swimming shape if you are already in good shape otherwise. Does anyone know if she was swimming at all? I remember hearing that she swam a lot during her pregnancy.

The Fortress
August 3rd, 2007, 06:15 PM
Elite athletes do not cheat for the money (at least it is low on the list). Having it or not having it neither absolves or proves anything (this has been the most useless issue to pop up in the thread).

Well, since it was established many pages ago that Dara has "boatloads" of money, I think we've moved on from the money issue and are now wringing our hands over the inevitable evils of ego. Jayhawk's example of the forged birth certificate is still cracking me up.

gull
August 3rd, 2007, 06:43 PM
What is that flax seed oil supposed to do exactly? I know it's good for dry eye, but what else?


From ESPN.com (December, 2004):

Barry Bonds testified to a grand jury that he used a clear substance and a cream given to him by a trainer who was indicted in a steroid-distribution ring, but said he didn't know they were steroids, the San Francisco Chronicle reported Friday.

Bonds told a U.S. grand jury that he used undetectable steroids known as "the cream" and "the clear," which he received from personal trainer Greg Anderson during the 2003 season. According to Bonds, the trainer told him the substances were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a pain-relieving balm for the player's arthritis.

Paul Smith
August 3rd, 2007, 07:08 PM
From ESPN.com (December, 2004):

Barry Bonds testified to a grand jury that he used a clear substance and a cream given to him by a trainer who was indicted in a steroid-distribution ring, but said he didn't know they were steroids, the San Francisco Chronicle reported Friday.

Bonds told a U.S. grand jury that he used undetectable steroids known as "the cream" and "the clear," which he received from personal trainer Greg Anderson during the 2003 season. According to Bonds, the trainer told him the substances were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a pain-relieving balm for the player's arthritis.

I knew it....there is no other way of explaining Geek and his sudden found confidence and aggression in conquering the world of triathlon...not even a little girly bell on his bike shakes his confidence!

By the way....with the cycling world falling back onto and old tried and true method of blood doping....I wonder if USS/FINA have added that into their testing protocol?

aquageek
August 3rd, 2007, 07:55 PM
I'm not taking it anymore - I'm gathering up my ironman watch, pull buoy, diaper shorts, bike shoes, bike pedals, heart rate monitor, wetsuit, paddles, scuba-esque goggles, dorkle and unitard and going over the the USAT discussion forum. Peace out, fruitcakes!

Oh, and my flaxseed oil, fish oil, quercetin, coq10, etc too. Get some of that!