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Aqua Jock
August 4th, 2007, 10:51 AM
Is Dara Dirty?

That's been the focus of this past weeks heated debate.

It's time for a poll.

Her Nationals victory and "remarkable" comeback from her long retirement has raised more than a few eye brows. Some believe she is, some beleive she isn't.

Some of us are on the fence, conflicted, we're thrilled to see a 40 year old swim that fast, we realize she has more talent than most 40 year olds but to become that great, that fast might be suspect.

What's your opinion?

AJ

cowsvils
August 4th, 2007, 12:09 PM
I think most of us will fall into the maybe category, just because it is so out there that someone at her age is competing at such a high level. Then again she is an ubertalent, but i guess we'll never truly know

SwimStud
August 4th, 2007, 12:33 PM
she can't be dirty...she speds a lot of time in the water...granted she might smell a bit bleachy...but let he or she who is without eau de chlorine cast the first pull buoy....

;)

some_girl
August 4th, 2007, 01:51 PM
There is no "probably," which is what I would vote.

newmastersswimmer
August 4th, 2007, 07:59 PM
Read the last few postings on the other Darra Torres thread....and read the article quicksilver posted.....this woman is cooperating on a scale that is beyond reasonable by any stretch of the imagination when it comes to blood testing....she is even willing to have extra blood samples stored for future testing as newer and better tests become available in the future (such as a test for HGH which should be coming in the near future according to what I have read). I for one find it really sad that she can still be judged as guilty by so many of you guys after she has been so willing to cooperate like that? Maybe we should start convicting alleged criminals as guilty without any supporting evidence as well.....it makes about as much sense to me to do that as what I've been reading from so many about how sure people are about Darra's guilt.

FindingMyInnerFish
August 5th, 2007, 01:29 AM
she can't be dirty...she speds a lot of time in the water...granted she might smell a bit bleachy...but let he or she who is without eau de chlorine cast the first pull buoy....

;)

:laugh2: LOL! You beat me to it!

aquageek
August 5th, 2007, 09:16 AM
Borko - give it a rest and get off the high horse. No one has accused her of doping. People are arguing about her achievements at this point in her life. Given the current state of sports, it is certainly expected that this type of discussion would arise. And, to be honest, Torres anticipated it also. Not a single poster has said she is guilty of anything, just honest discourse.

You might recall Floyd Landis a year ago if you want evidence as to why there is skepticism, or Barry Bonds last night, or the entire Tour last month. All of these folks spouted the same stuff you are spouting above, every single one of them.

As to innocent until proven guilty, that is the oldest cliche in the book. That is for criminals, not sports stars and discussions of dopping.

SwimStud
August 5th, 2007, 09:25 AM
Yeah Jim...give it a rest...lol
Geek, it's Sunday...shouldn't you be in the pulpit? :D

scyfreestyler
August 5th, 2007, 09:38 AM
I would argue that when somebody claims that her swims are not humanly possible at her age, sans doping, it qualifies as an accusation.

As for innocent until proven guilty, sure thing. She is innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of USA Swimming, FINA, etc.

gull
August 5th, 2007, 10:31 AM
I would argue that when somebody claims that her swims are not humanly possible at her age, sans doping, it qualifies as an accusation.

I would call it an opinion, not an accusation. No one is on trial here. It is, after all, a discussion forum.

quicksilver
August 5th, 2007, 10:44 AM
It's an opinion...yes I agree. But being questioned for doping does seem a tad accusatory.

I used imagery of torches and pitchforks in the other thread because it reminded me of the Salem witch hunt stories.
The whole premise of that guy's blog is that she must be a witch if she swims so fast.

Not exactly put that way..but would agree?

The Fortress
August 5th, 2007, 11:32 AM
Borko - give it a rest and get off the high horse. No one has accused her of doping. People are arguing about her achievements at this point in her life. Given the current state of sports, it is certainly expected that this type of discussion would arise. And, to be honest, Torres anticipated it also. Not a single poster has said she is guilty of anything, just honest discourse.


I thought we were just having a discussion too, and musing over the possible bases for an admittedly fabulous performance.

The true believers have definitely been very "accusatory" toward those on the fence though. :duel:

Now, the guy with the blog, he's accusing. But, as far as I know, he's not participating in this "discussion forum."

SwimStud
August 5th, 2007, 11:45 AM
It's an opinion...yes I agree. But being questioned for doping does seem a tad accusatory.

I used imagery of torches and pitchforks in the other thread because it reminded me of the Salem witch hunt stories.
The whole premise of that guy's blog is that she must be a witch if she swims so fast.

Not exactly put that way..but would agree?


She floats! She must be a witch! Burn her!! LOL
This is where the whole topic goes a bit Monty Python...

PS I don't like spam!

dorothyrde
August 5th, 2007, 01:57 PM
We are starting to see the benefits of better conditioning of women starting in grade school and up. The majority of these talented athletes will quit sometime in their 20's and go on to live life, have a job, have children, and wake up in their late 30's and realize they are out of shape, and get back into it. Dara is one who has not followed that path. She may not have been swimming to stay in shape, but she did indeed stay in shape through her 20's and 30's, and so now in her 40's, she is reaping that. She has money and all the benefits to training that buys her, she has talent and the genetic make-up to be good. If more men and women stay in shape through-out their 20's and 30's, and think we would not see such a decline in their 40's. Dara has hardly any comparison, because not many people do what she has done.

So, perhaps we will see more of this because the kids who survive through their teens and early 20's without burnout may be able to continue to get better as they earn the means to support better training and they get smarter about their training, so there is not wasted time, it is all put into getting better.

KenChertoff
August 5th, 2007, 02:17 PM
As to innocent until proven guilty, that is the oldest cliche in the book. That is for criminals, not sports stars and discussions of dopping.

It's hardly a cliche and it isn't just for criminals. It's another way of saying that a hypothesis can't be accepted as fact without proof -- a basic principle of critical thought. The alternative is proving a negative; that's what leads to witch hunts. Speculation isn't proof.

jonblank
August 5th, 2007, 04:24 PM
It's a sad state of affairs in the swimming community (and the sports community as a whole) when this issue is raised.

I for one celebrate and applaud Dara Torres' achievement, and refuse to believe that she has used any performance enhancing substances other than chlorine, H2O, superb conditioning, outstanding team and family support, and her own unique physiology.

I believe she will achieve the incredible goal of competing in an unprecedented 5th Olympic Games.

Sam Perry
August 5th, 2007, 05:01 PM
It's a sad state of affairs in the swimming community (and the sports community as a whole) when this issue is raised.


Yeah I guess it's sad when we discuss Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Landis, Michelle Smith, Ben Johnson, Chinese Women, East German Women. Shame on us for bringing it up to the sports community.

newmastersswimmer
August 5th, 2007, 05:09 PM
It's hardly a cliche and it isn't just for criminals. It's another way of saying that a hypothesis can't be accepted as fact without proof -- a basic principle of critical thought. The alternative is proving a negative; that's what leads to witch hunts. Speculation isn't proof.


Thanks Ken.....I think you have articulated my opinion a lot better than I did....or could in my last posting. I do think that maybe my last posting was a bity preachy though....It is true that Darra isn't on actual trial like a criminal....but there does seem to be a kind of trial here none-the-less IMO (and in some other's opinions as well perhaps?). So I personally feel that the so called cliche that Geek is referring to should also apply here as well....an opinion I'm sure that is not shared by everyone though.

scyfreestyler
August 5th, 2007, 05:37 PM
Apparently the only person who has accused her of being dirty here is "Larry" per the poll results. Be that as it may, were I reading these threads about myself I would most likely walk away with the idea that several of these posters think I am doping.

newmastersswimmer
August 5th, 2007, 05:38 PM
I thought we were just having a discussion too, and musing over the possible bases for an admittedly fabulous performance.

The true believers have definitely been very "accusatory" toward those on the fence though. :duel:

Now, the guy with the blog, he's accusing. But, as far as I know, he's not participating in this "discussion forum."


I may not have articulated my intentions very well so I will just say that I was referring more to people like the guy who wrote the blog in my postings ....and not to those who are either on the fence or think she might be guilty of doping....I don't think anyone can say for sure what the real truth of the matter is based on the evidence presented anyway....My point is that sense the woman's honor is being questioned here (or at least thats the way I see it), then I believe she shouldn't be denegrated the way she was on that guy's blog (or by others as well) as being definitely guilty of something without any real proof. Its too bad that there aren't good enough tests currently available to prove a person's innocence in this situation....I feel that Darra's case is different than Bonds' case (or many of the other athletes mentioned here who are also either under suspicion for doping or have been caught redhanded or admitted to doping) because the evidence that was presented against Darra by the blogger guy was based soley on the fact that he felt it was impossible for Darra to swim as fast as she did without doping....which is very speculative evidence IMO for being as accusatory as he was being in his blog. I Just wanted to clear that part up here thats all. If my postings appeared to be accusatory towards anyone else other than the ones I have tried to identify in this posting then I apologize.

p.s. The guy's blog may have not been directly part of this discussion but it seemed to me that the guy's blog was the primary basis for the ensuing discussion none-the-less since it was the original posting on the topic as far as I could tell?

Midas
August 5th, 2007, 05:51 PM
Yeah I guess it's sad when we discuss Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Landis, Michelle Smith, Ben Johnson, Chinese Women, East German Women. Shame on us for bringing it up to the sports community.

I think that all he was saying is that with such rampant steroid abuse in other sports (and historically in our own--all as you note), it's a sad state of affairs that personal achievements by somewhat older athletes are automatically questioned...

The Fortress
August 5th, 2007, 05:52 PM
It's hardly a cliche and it isn't just for criminals. It's another way of saying that a hypothesis can't be accepted as fact without proof -- a basic principle of critical thought. The alternative is proving a negative; that's what leads to witch hunts. Speculation isn't proof.

I think you took the Geek bait. :bolt:

Shame on you, Sam! ;)

Matt: Lotta maybes out there too. That is not the equivalent to saying someone is doping.

Swimming is a lot different than baseball. That's why I'm not sure the analogy applies. Baseball lived in willful blissful ignorance and never tested. Olympic athletes like swimmers undergo extensive testing. It is too bad that BALCO or cycling tars Dara.

scyfreestyler
August 5th, 2007, 07:19 PM
Erik Vendt's comeback is starting to look pretty impressive as well, if not suspect. What with the house cleaning he did in the 1500M (CR) and the AR he set in the 800M, one could start to get suspicious of somebody who is gaining so much ground so quickly. :rolleyes:


But seriously...everybody is certainly entitled to an opinion. I just hope that some testing that will satisfy the skeptics will come along before too long.

aquageek
August 5th, 2007, 07:29 PM
It's hardly a cliche and it isn't just for criminals. It's another way of saying that a hypothesis can't be accepted as fact without proof -- a basic principle of critical thought. The alternative is proving a negative; that's what leads to witch hunts. Speculation isn't proof.

I have no idea what this means.

Gull - please translate to North Carolina speak so I can understand it. Referencing bbq and tobacco will help.

Karen Duggan
August 5th, 2007, 07:44 PM
I remember an Irish swimmer named Michelle Smith who went from being ranked near 100th in the world to all of a sudden (and I can't remember exactly what she did) breaking a world record, winning an Olympics, whatever it was? Lo and behold she was dirty, and so was her track and field hubby...

I could see if Dara had come out of nowhere and was suddenly making her first Oly team, etc... however, she's been this fast since she was freakin' 14!!! No surprise here. I think she has put swimming as THE number one priority in her life and her success shows it, that plus her phenomenal talent. Am I saying she isn't dirty? No, I don't know. Only she knows.

If I had to jump off the fence though, I'd say she isn't... :2cents:

scyfreestyler
August 5th, 2007, 07:50 PM
I have no idea what this means.

Gull - please translate to North Carolina speak so I can understand it. Referencing bbq and tobacco will help.


I don't see any posts from Stud...did you go cycling in Va.?

Sam Perry
August 5th, 2007, 10:11 PM
Shame on you, Sam! ;)



Sorry, couldn't resist being my sarcastic self. Drives my wife crazy. :dunno:

ande
August 5th, 2007, 11:12 PM
no surprise
Vendt's been training like an animal for years



Erik Vendt's comeback is starting to look pretty impressive as well, if not suspect. What with the house cleaning he did in the 1500M (CR) and the AR he set in the 800M, one could start to get suspicious of somebody who is gaining so much ground so quickly. :rolleyes:


But seriously...everybody is certainly entitled to an opinion. I just hope that some testing that will satisfy the skeptics will come along before too long.

scyfreestyler
August 5th, 2007, 11:25 PM
no surprise
Vendt's been training like an animal for years



Vendt was out of the water on "retirement" after Athens 2004 until sometime in mid 2006 as I recall. He had a long break in which he traveled around Europe and returned to give swim lessons in New York.

jonblank
August 6th, 2007, 09:38 AM
I think that all he was saying is that with such rampant steroid abuse in other sports (and historically in our own--all as you note), it's a sad state of affairs that personal achievements by somewhat older athletes are automatically questioned...

Yes, I think that's what I was saying as well. Cynicism is best tempered with respect for outstanding achievement.

Swim_McG
August 6th, 2007, 01:29 PM
As a huge swimming fan/geek, I hope with all my heart that Dara is not doping. This is a great time for swimming. Michael Phelps has brought national exposure and popularity to this great sport. There are so many exciting swimmers and rivalries that make swimming more intriguing than ever. You can see the popularity in USA swimming - I did some age group coaching last year and we had so many kids try-out that we could not accomodate them all. This excitement and popularity has translated into more people getting invloved in mastrer swimming as well. I think it would be tragic for the sport if someone like Dara were cheating. I HOPE HOPE HOPE she is clean.

Having said all that, I am 39, I swim three/four days a week ( high quality workouts) and last year I was able to come within a few seconds of my college 100 breast time. That was with no weight training and never going more than 4200 yards at a time....I think with improved nuturition, more advanced dryland/lactic acid testing it is possible to swim best times at a later age. Also, there haven't there been some older women marathon runners and triathletes who are at the top? ...I think women seem to have more longevity than us men.

SwimStud
August 6th, 2007, 01:38 PM
...I think women seem to have more longevity than us men.

is that the sound of another can being opened...

;)

MAC swimmer
August 7th, 2007, 07:37 AM
Is has been well established that times and personal bests ARE possible at age 40. That is not a valid argument. Now, there is no question that Dara is taking massive amounts of legal suppliments--creatine, vitamins, caffiene, everything--she did in the run up to the 2000 Olympics and now as well although now she may be going organic on us.

Is she taking HGH or Testosterone or EPO? I do not think so.

aquageek
August 7th, 2007, 07:43 AM
Is has been well established that times and personal bests ARE possible at age 40. That is not a valid argument.

It has only been established that lifetime PBs are possible by non elite swimmers at age 40. It has not been established for the ultra elite swimmers, and, thus, the whole point of this discussion. If it were invalid, this whole crazy thread would not exist.

SwimStud
August 7th, 2007, 08:00 AM
It has not been established for the ultra elite swimmers,

...but are you going to quit your job denying old ladies their insurance pay outs, and give it your all for us, Geek, to find out?

:p

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 7th, 2007, 09:08 AM
We are starting to see the benefits of better conditioning of women starting in grade school and up. The majority of these talented athletes will quit sometime in their 20's and go on to live life, have a job, have children, and wake up in their late 30's and realize they are out of shape, and get back into it. Dara is one who has not followed that path. She may not have been swimming to stay in shape, but she did indeed stay in shape through her 20's and 30's, and so now in her 40's, she is reaping that. She has money and all the benefits to training that buys her, she has talent and the genetic make-up to be good. If more men and women stay in shape through-out their 20's and 30's, and think we would not see such a decline in their 40's. Dara has hardly any comparison, because not many people do what she has done.

So, perhaps we will see more of this because the kids who survive through their teens and early 20's without burnout may be able to continue to get better as they earn the means to support better training and they get smarter about their training, so there is not wasted time, it is all put into getting better.
That's not true. She has retired twice. I remember when she was in the pool of prospective woman to get the job on Reigs Live. she stated that she hadn't been in the pool for over one year. then she retired completely and stated in an interview tht she would never get nto a pool again. then out of no where she shows up at a masters meet. Had she been not telling the truth about training ? I also remember seeing an interview of her on TV. She was talking about her diet. This was shortly after her first reentry into competitive swimmign. She said what she ate and talked about a new sports drink she was working on with a lab that was going to be coming to market shortly. Did it ever hit the market?

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 7th, 2007, 09:12 AM
As a huge swimming fan/geek, I hope with all my heart that Dara is not doping. This is a great time for swimming. Michael Phelps has brought national exposure and popularity to this great sport. There are so many exciting swimmers and rivalries that make swimming more intriguing than ever. You can see the popularity in USA swimming - I did some age group coaching last year and we had so many kids try-out that we could not accomodate them all. This excitement and popularity has translated into more people getting invloved in mastrer swimming as well. I think it would be tragic for the sport if someone like Dara were cheating. I HOPE HOPE HOPE she is clean.

Having said all that, I am 39, I swim three/four days a week ( high quality workouts) and last year I was able to come within a few seconds of my college 100 breast time. That was with no weight training and never going more than 4200 yards at a time....I think with improved nuturition, more advanced dryland/lactic acid testing it is possible to swim best times at a later age. Also, there haven't there been some older women marathon runners and triathletes who are at the top? ...I think women seem to have more longevity than us men.


I was in high school at the time of Mark Spitz. I think he brought many guys into swimmign and many guys staye din swimming because of him. Has there ever been any type of research to look at influence of a person on the numbers of peole participating in a sport.

I also started playing soccer becaue of Pele.

FlyQueen
August 7th, 2007, 09:13 AM
I remember an Irish swimmer named Michelle Smith who went from being ranked near 100th in the world to all of a sudden (and I can't remember exactly what she did) breaking a world record, winning an Olympics, whatever it was? Lo and behold she was dirty, and so was her track and field hubby...

I could see if Dara had come out of nowhere and was suddenly making her first Oly team, etc... however, she's been this fast since she was freakin' 14!!! No surprise here. I think she has put swimming as THE number one priority in her life and her success shows it, that plus her phenomenal talent. Am I saying she isn't dirty? No, I don't know. Only she knows.

If I had to jump off the fence though, I'd say she isn't... :2cents:

She won the 200IM in Atlanta. Pretty much everyone at the time thought she was doped, if I remember correctly.

aquageek
August 7th, 2007, 09:15 AM
She said what she ate and talked about a new sports drink she was working on with a lab that was going to be coming to market shortly.

The lab was called Balco, oddly enough.

FYI Stud - I'm in I/T

newmastersswimmer
August 7th, 2007, 11:03 AM
It has only been established that lifetime PBs are possible by non elite swimmers at age 40. It has not been established for the ultra elite swimmers, and, thus, the whole point of this discussion. If it were invalid, this whole crazy thread would not exist.


Here is a posting written by Rich Abrahams himself that I cut and pasted here from an earlier thread created by Ande in which you list your best times over the years: (You can find the thread by simplying clicking on Ande's Profile and then on all threads created by Ande....this was one of the first postings in that thread):



Here is a listing for 30+ years in masters, 7 age groups.

50 free
Lifetime best 21.4 (hand held, 1965 NCAA's 2d place)
30-34 22.21 age 31
35-39 22.17 age 35
40-44 22.14 age 40
45-49 21.78 age 48
50-54 21.73 age 53
55-59 21,82 age 55
60-64 22.30 age 60 (slowing down)
__________________


Notice that Rich was second in the 50 at NCAA's back in 1965.....that sounds pretty ultra elite to me.....its not an Olympic Gold Medal...but none-the-less....NCAA's is a pretty big meet don't you think? Also Note that he was only 3 tenths of a second away from that 1965 swim at the age of 53!!....Not age 40...age 53! ...(which was a hand timed swim in 1965 vs an electronically timed swim at 53) So are you sure you want to stick with your original position Geek that it has not been established that lifetime bests can be achieved at age 40 by the ultra elite??

Bork



...but are you going to quit your job denying old ladies their insurance pay outs, and give it your all for us, Geek, to find out?

:p

I had to edit this quote in because its just too funny (even if it was posted by Mr. Stud LOL! )

ande
August 7th, 2007, 11:30 AM
Rich proved it's possible to swim close to life time best times as he aged

I wonder if Rich learned things in his older years that he now wishes he would have done in his younger years.

Rich's speed is due to how he trains.
He does dry land and weights to stay strong.
He probably doesn't technique and speed work in the pool to remain fast.
I'd be surpised if he was doing much aerobic work.

Most people don't know how to train to swim fast.

Ande


Here is a posting written by Rich Abrahams himself that I cut and pasted here from an earlier thread created by Ande in which you list your best times over the years: (You can find the thread by simplying clicking on Ande's Profile and then on all threads created by Ande....this was one of the first postings in that thread):

Here is a listing for 30+ years in masters, 7 age groups.

50 free
Lifetime best 21.4 (hand held, 1965 NCAA's 2d place)
30-34 22.21 age 31
35-39 22.17 age 35
40-44 22.14 age 40
45-49 21.78 age 48
50-54 21.73 age 53
55-59 21,82 age 55
60-64 22.30 age 60 (slowing down)

Notice that Rich was second in the 50 at NCAA's back in 1965.....that sounds pretty ultra elite to me.....its not an Olympic Gold Medal...but none-the-less....NCAA's is a pretty big meet don't you think? Also Note that he was only 3 tenths of a second away from that 1965 swim at the age of 53!!....Not age 40...age 53! ...(which was a hand timed swim in 1965 vs an electronically timed swim at 53) So are you sure you want to stick with your original position Geek that it has not been established that lifetime bests can be achieved at age 40 by the ultra elite??

Bork




I had to edit this quote in because its just too funny (even if it was posted by Mr. Stud LOL! )

newmastersswimmer
August 7th, 2007, 11:49 AM
Rich proved it's possible to swim close to life time best times as he aged

I wonder if Rich learned things in his older years that he now wishes he would have done in his younger years.

Rich's speed is due to how he trains.
He does dry land and weights to stay strong.
He probably doesn't technique and speed work in the pool to remain fast.
I'd be surpised if he was doing much aerobic work.

Most people don't know how to train to swim fast.

Ande


That may be so for Rich.....but I am not convinced that significantly improving the technical aspects of a person's stroke (and starts, turns, etc....) at a later age such as 40 can't eventually produce lifetime bests ...even for the once ultra elite swimmers. The reason I feel this way is because I think there has been a much more scientific approach to swimming these days in general then what I remembered being the case back in the day. I was of course not a member of the ultra elite....but I was a decent college swimmer back in the day and I know that I did not focus nearly enough on those technical aspects back then. While I can't prove this theory is true, it is my opinion that significant improvements in these technical areas could eventually outweigh a person's loss in overall strength and stamina in some cases.....I know that when I saw video tapes of my swims at the Ft. Lauderdale SCY Nats in 2005, I was shocked at how poor my technique was (including turns and starts). This of course may have nothing to do with Darra's case though ....If she has made significant technical improvements as of late, one would have to carefully examine video tape footage to see if these improvements may have made a significant contribution to her recent success.

some_girl
August 7th, 2007, 11:57 AM
Here is a posting written by Rich Abrahams himself that I cut and pasted here from an earlier thread created by Ande in which you list your best times over the years: (You can find the thread by simplying clicking on Ande's Profile and then on all threads created by Ande....this was one of the first postings in that thread):



Here is a listing for 30+ years in masters, 7 age groups.

50 free
Lifetime best 21.4 (hand held, 1965 NCAA's 2d place)
30-34 22.21 age 31
35-39 22.17 age 35
40-44 22.14 age 40
45-49 21.78 age 48
50-54 21.73 age 53
55-59 21,82 age 55
60-64 22.30 age 60 (slowing down)
__________________


Notice that Rich was second in the 50 at NCAA's back in 1965.....that sounds pretty ultra elite to me.....its not an Olympic Gold Medal...but none-the-less....NCAA's is a pretty big meet don't you think? Also Note that he was only 3 tenths of a second away from that 1965 swim at the age of 53!!....Not age 40...age 53! ...(which was a hand timed swim in 1965 vs an electronically timed swim at 53) So are you sure you want to stick with your original position Geek that it has not been established that lifetime bests can be achieved at age 40 by the ultra elite??

Bork


1. Where are his 100 times?
2. Notice he has not beaten his time, which was not a record, whereas Dara is breaking her own records.

Though it is admirable, I do not think it is comparable.

aquageek
August 7th, 2007, 12:00 PM
As one of the Smith hoodlums mentioned earlier, it's hard to argue technique has improved swimming that much when compared to slick suits, dolphin kicking on every stroke, and vastly superior pool construction. I watched Rowdy's gold medal performance and was amazed by how much things have changed in 20+ years - flat dives, no streamlining to speak of, lots of hair, etc.

Mswimming
August 7th, 2007, 12:24 PM
As one of the Smith hoodlums mentioned earlier, it's hard to argue technique has improved swimming that much when compared to slick suits, dolphin kicking on every stroke, and vastly superior pool construction. I watched Rowdy's gold medal performance and was amazed by how much things have changed in 20+ years - flat dives, no streamlining to speak of, lots of hair, etc.

I just had a chance to watch the youtube videos of her 50 and 100 free. I have to say that the image of how I would like to swim freestyle or how I invision a perfect stroke to look like was exactly how Dara swam those races. Simply incredible.

Has anyone seen any underwater footage of those races or do they exist? I'd love to see how she finishes her stoke underwater. Looks like she gets every last bit of push out of it instead of rounding out like others do.

As for the doping. I agree with the smiths to some extent. Anything that is out of the norm has to be questioned. As fans we've learned too much about the cheating of the past 10 + years to believe everything we see as genuine.

I hope she is clean. If she is, it is great of the sport. But if it comes out later she is not, it will be another tough confirmation of rampant cheating in all sports.

Kevin

newmastersswimmer
August 7th, 2007, 12:35 PM
1. Where are his 100 times?
2. Notice he has not beaten his time, which was not a record, whereas Dara is breaking her own records.

Though it is admirable, I do not think it is comparable.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion and so I'm not trying to slam you or anything ....BUT I have to disagree with you about the fact that this isn't comparable. Second place at NCAA's is pretty comparable to having a US record IMO.....There is nothing magical in my opinion about being ranked number one in your event compared to be ranked number 2 or number 3 when looking at the context of this particular discussion...ultra elite is ultra elite....Although Rich did not list his 100 times in that particular posting, you can type his name into the individual times feature at this website and see that he has not only maintained very fast 50 times over the years...but he has also maintained very fast 100 times as well. I don't know off hand how they compared to his college days when he was definitely amongst the ultra elite swimmers of that time....but my bet is that his 100 times were also very close to his best times at the age of 53 as well....And even though he didn't break his own personal record in the 50 at age 53, he was close enough to his best time to be just as impressive in the context of this argument as if he had broken his own record at age 53. Also remember that he was 53...not 40
So to me at least, Rich's performances in his 50's (for both 50's and 100's) is most definitely comparable to how Darra's times now compare to when she was in college (or younger). ...BUT it is a matter of opinion I admit.

Frank Thompson
August 7th, 2007, 01:17 PM
1. Where are his 100 times?
2. Notice he has not beaten his time, which was not a record, whereas Dara is breaking her own records.

Though it is admirable, I do not think it is comparable.

Rich Abrahams time in the 100 Yard Free from the 1965 NCAA Championship Meet was a :47.9 and that was the same meet he did the :21.4 in the 50 Yard Free to get second to Steve Clark, another USMS swimmer.

In 2000, at the age of 55, some 35 years later did a time of :48.37
In 2005, at the age of 60, some 40 years later did a time of :49.14

Should we accuse Rich of taking performance enhancing drugs because of this outstanding achievement especially after a layoff of over 20 years and by his own admission to smoking?

knelson
August 7th, 2007, 01:29 PM
Rich Abrahams time in the 100 Yard Free from the 1965 NCAA Championship Meet was a :47.9 and that was the same meet he did the :21.4 in the 50 Yard Free to get second to Steve Clark, another USMS swimmer.

In 2000, at the age of 55, some 35 years later did a time of :48.37
In 2005, at the age of 60, some 40 years later did a time of :49.14

It sure looks comparable to what Dara has done to me. Maybe Rich hasn't established new personal bests, but he's been darn close AND he was considerably older than Dara when he did it. The fact that Rich's times don't compare with elite swimmers of today is irrelevent, in my opinion.

scyfreestyler
August 7th, 2007, 01:34 PM
I see we have some more official accusations now. 5 more people have added their names to the list of saying "Yes, Dara is dirty".

some_girl
August 7th, 2007, 02:38 PM
It sure looks comparable to what Dara has done to me. Maybe Rich hasn't established new personal bests, but he's been darn close AND he was considerably older than Dara when he did it. The fact that Rich's times don't compare with elite swimmers of today is irrelevent, in my opinion.

I think it is relevant, though. The reason Dara is "amazing" is because she is breaking her own records and still swimming faster, to the point of beating people now. In the case of Rich, I have to say, close but no cigar. Keep digging, optimists!

FlyQueen
August 7th, 2007, 02:49 PM
Honestly who cares if it's never been done before? There's a first for everything. Back in the late 1400s people thought it was impossible for Columbus to sail around the world (not because it was "flat"). There was a time when it was thought that man couldn't fly. Then along came the Wright brothers. It was thought the 50 second barrier in the 100 free was almost sacred ... boom 14 guys went under it at Nationals (without Lezak there). 50 years ago if you told people almost everyone would have their own cell phones that they wouldn't have believed.

Another notable "it's impossible" breaking the 4:00 minute barrier in the mile ... it was really thought to be physically impossible. Read the perfect mile sometime, it's great. I'm adding the 19 second barrier in the 50 free. It took two years before anyone else did it but then multiple guys did it at NCAAs.

Who cares if she is the first person ever to accomplish what she's doing. Maybe she's blazing a trail others will follow in and we'll start having more 30 somethings and even 40 somethings on Olympic teams.

aquageek
August 7th, 2007, 02:59 PM
I agree with you, FlyQueen, believe it or not. You left out one notable achievement of mankind that we were certain would never fall. No one ever believed it possible to go under 9.80 seconds in the 100m sprint, until Ben Johnson did it in 1988.

I know my faith in athletics was restored when Justin Gatlin lowered the mark to 9.77 seconds, another great feat for mankind. Justin will be back in about 8 years to do it again.

Stillhere
August 7th, 2007, 03:05 PM
Keep in mind in 1965 you had to touch the wall with your hand on the flip turn....

newmastersswimmer
August 7th, 2007, 03:17 PM
Honestly who cares if it's never been done before? There's a first for everything. Back in the late 1400s people thought it was impossible for Columbus to sail around the world (not because it was "flat"). There was a time when it was thought that man couldn't fly. Then along came the Wright brothers. It was thought the 50 second barrier in the 100 free was almost sacred ... boom 14 guys went under it at Nationals (without Lezak there). 50 years ago if you told people almost everyone would have their own cell phones that they wouldn't have believed.

Another notable "it's impossible" breaking the 4:00 minute barrier in the mile ... it was really thought to be physically impossible. Read the perfect mile sometime, it's great. I'm adding the 19 second barrier in the 50 free. It took two years before anyone else did it but then multiple guys did it at NCAAs.

Who cares if she is the first person ever to accomplish what she's doing. Maybe she's blazing a trail others will follow in and we'll start having more 30 somethings and even 40 somethings on Olympic teams.


In fact one could argue IMO that its almost a Murphy's type law that as soon as someone claims there is a definite boundary of some kind associated to any kind of human achievement (physical, mental, or other), that someone will invariabley surpass that boundary. In the case of this particular kind of proposed boundary (about how fast an ultra elite swimmer can continue to swim at a much older age without doping) there isn't near enough reliable information available to do more than just make speculations IMO. It is a bit suprising to me that 6 people voted yes (Darra's definitely dirty) based on the entire set of relevant evidence that has been discussed on this forum thus far. It is an opinion poll though and I do agree with what others (including GoodSmith too I guess LOL!) have said about having some suspicions...mainly based on the fact that there is no current available test to prove Darra's innocence.....So maybe its not really a bad idea to follow the cliche approach that Geek brought up earlier here.....innocent until proven guilty.....Maybe those voters who voted yes though don't really see their votes as an actual guilty verdict .....Gut feelings on a poll like this is still different than an outright accusation of guilt IMO....I personally voted for who cares actually...the reason being that I felt it was futile to really take a stand of any kind on this issue with such little available evidence to prove either innocence or guilt....Admittedly I am also more accepting of the position Flyqueen takes in her posting above though in trying to explain to myself how possible or believable it is that someone of Darra's caliber can swim so fast without doping....This could also be do to the fact that I am 43 and I know how much swimming has advanced over the years from a technical standpoint ...and so this also makes Darra's recent achievements more believable to me without having to use performance enhancing drugs.

knelson
August 7th, 2007, 03:19 PM
Keep digging, optimists!

Why should the onus be on us? Her swimming these times is proof enough for me that it can be done without drugs. I can't say with certainty whether she cheated or not, but until such a time as someone shows hard evidence that she did, I'll believe she's clean.

newmastersswimmer
August 7th, 2007, 03:22 PM
Keep in mind in 1965 you had to touch the wall with your hand on the flip turn....


Good point!....and hand timing is notoriously faster compared to the electronic timing of recent years....anyone who was around when this transformation from hand timing to electronic touch pad timing was taking place knows this to be the "general" case.

FlyQueen
August 7th, 2007, 03:36 PM
Why should the onus be on us? Her swimming these times is proof enough for me that it can be done without drugs. I can't say with certainty whether she cheated or not, but until such a time as someone shows hard evidence that she did, I'll believe she's clean.

Kirk, I agree entirely. She will never be able to prove her innocence. Allowing blood to be taken and frozen until better tests are available won't change anyone's opinion apparently.

In case anyone cares www.collegeswimming.com has a message board too and they are almost all in agreement that she is clean and shocked that we are debating it so heatedly over here. Just throwing it out there.

aquageek
August 7th, 2007, 03:39 PM
I was in college in 1988 when Johnson set his record. We need college kids to stay naive and balance the cynicism of adults.

FlyQueen
August 7th, 2007, 03:41 PM
Very possible Geek. But there are enough adults on here who believe the same thing.

aquageek
August 7th, 2007, 03:47 PM
I just read that forum briefly and there was one shocked person and that same person called us cranky on this forum, which is true in Stud's case for sure. They seem more concerned about Torres taking spots from teen swimmers than her doping. I'm not real concerned about college kids, eventually they get jobs and join USMS and become cranky.

The Fortress
August 7th, 2007, 05:16 PM
I just read that forum briefly and there was one shocked person and that same person called us cranky on this forum, which is true in Stud's case for sure. They seem more concerned about Torres taking spots from teen swimmers than her doping. I'm not real concerned about college kids, eventually they get jobs and join USMS and become cranky.

The college kids will no doubt be "cranky" enough when they get a good taste of real life. On the whole, I think youth is somewhat correlated with optimism. Seems like there's also a bit of a male/female breakdown on this issue. As far as I can tell, myself (somewhat skeptical) and some_girl (somewhat cycnical) are the only women raising an eyebrow.

As to taking teenage spots, not too concerned. Swimming is largely a meritocracy. The fastest swimmers go. Except I'm not sure the teenagers have a $500 per month pill/enhancement habit. Or maybe they do ...

scyfreestyler
August 7th, 2007, 05:19 PM
The college kids will no doubt be "cranky" enough when they get a good taste of real life. On the whole, I think youth is somewhat correlated with optimism. Seems like there's also a bit of a male/female breakdown on this issue. As far as I can tell, myself (somewhat skeptical) and some_girl (somewhat cycnical) are the only women raising an eyebrow.

As to taking teenage spots, not too concerned. Swimming is largely a meritocracy. The fastest swimmers go. Except I'm not sure the teenagers have a $500 per month pill/enhancement habit. Or maybe they do ...


I bet many of them do have extensive resources with respect to non traditional training aids.

SwimStud
August 7th, 2007, 05:21 PM
I just read that forum briefly and there was one shocked person and that same person called us cranky on this forum, which is true in Stud's case for sure. They seem more concerned about Torres taking spots from teen swimmers than her doping. I'm not real concerned about college kids, eventually they get jobs and join USMS and become cranky.


I wasn't cranky until Mrs Stud phoned to tell me my Jeep's new radiator which it suddenly decided it needed today cost $900.

:doh:
need :2cents:

scyfreestyler
August 7th, 2007, 05:24 PM
Holy mackerel! Damn Gina! Jumping Jack-O-Lanterns! That's a lot of coin for a Jeep radiator it seems. Ouch.

newmastersswimmer
August 7th, 2007, 05:25 PM
The college kids will no doubt be "cranky" enough when they get a good taste of real life. On the whole, I think youth is somewhat correlated with optimism. Seems like there's also a bit of a male/female breakdown on this issue. As far as I can tell, myself (somewhat skeptical) and some_girl (somewhat cycnical) are the only women raising an eyebrow.

As to taking teenage spots, not too concerned. Swimming is largely a meritocracy. The fastest swimmers go. Except I'm not sure the teenagers have a $500 per month pill/enhancement habit. Or maybe they do ...



It is true that there appears to be more dialogue here in support of the notion that Darra could (or definitely is) cheating amongst male posters compared to female posters (or at least it appears that way to me?)....the original blog that started this debate was written by a guy....and Geek is kind of like a guy I guess? LOL!....And does GoodSmith's opinion really count anyway? I mean he's a Longhorn right?.... (just j/k now John o.k....or am I? LOL!)

SwimStud
August 7th, 2007, 05:28 PM
Holy mackerel! Damn Gina! Jumping Jack-O-Lanterns! That's a lot of coin for a Jeep radiator it seems. Ouch.


Well this is what happens when the little woman takes a day trip into NYC on the hottest day of the year thus far...

NY rates on a new radiator.

scyfreestyler
August 7th, 2007, 05:35 PM
You need it, they've got it.

CreamPuff
August 7th, 2007, 05:54 PM
It is true that there appears to be more dialogue here in support of the notion that Darra could (or definitely is) cheating amongst male posters compared to female posters

Why do you suppose that is?

Had this question been posed to me in my 20s, I would have said, "NO WAY!" Call it youthful optimism.

In my 30s, I feel it's possible, although I hope it's not the case.

Wonder what my 40s will bring. . . Anyone have a recipe for going back to being "green?" Life is so much more pleasant that way.

gull
August 7th, 2007, 05:57 PM
I just read that forum briefly and there was one shocked person and that same person called us cranky on this forum, which is true in Stud's case for sure. They seem more concerned about Torres taking spots from teen swimmers than her doping. I'm not real concerned about college kids, eventually they get jobs and join USMS and become cranky.

They'd be cranky too if their bodies were falling apart.

CreamPuff
August 7th, 2007, 06:06 PM
They'd be cranky too if their bodies were falling apart.

:rofl:

There was a nationals senior (young) swimmer swimming with us at masters practice today. He was a happy, happy guy for 5:45 AM. Now I know why. His body was NOT falling apart to say the least.

scyfreestyler
August 7th, 2007, 06:07 PM
In my 30s, I feel it's possible, although I hope it's not the case.



Being in my thirties as well (EARLY thirties I might add) I also feel it is possible. By "it", I mean doping or not doping. I realize that either option is a possibility, never say never. However, I am giving her the benefit of the doubt. She has been very upfront about any and all testing so I will err on the side of innocence until evidence suggests otherwise.

The Fortress
August 7th, 2007, 06:17 PM
They'd be cranky too if their bodies were falling apart.

Exactly! When I was chatting with my shoulder doc last week about the possibility of using plasma regeneration on my cranky frayed labrum, we chatted about Dara. His immediate, half-joking reaction was that she had had plasma regeneration on her shoulder. He has a lot of pro athlete patients who use this procedure to overcome injuries and keep training and playing. He had someone ask him if he could use the procedure on a healthy shoulder to make it even stronger. He declined, saying he wasn't in the performance enhancing business. Found it all interesting.

(S)he-Man:

Smiling at 5:45 would really make me cranky ... Your 40s will just bring more falling apart body parts (and hormone maladjustment), so enjoy your 30s!

newmastersswimmer
August 8th, 2007, 12:34 AM
I think it is relevant, though. The reason Dara is "amazing" is because she is breaking her own records and still swimming faster, to the point of beating people now. In the case of Rich, I have to say, close but no cigar. Keep digging, optimists!


Sorry that I keep chiming in to disagree with you Some_Girl....but I have to say that I completely disagree with your position about the "relevance" of Rich's best times being substantially slower than today's top times compared to how close Darra's best times still are to the top times of elite swimmers today (and I have to completely agree with Kirk that this is an "irrelevant" point in this discussion for the most part)...and here's why I feel this way:

FIRST of all: Darra's times from around 20 years ago or so (when she was back in college and supposedly in her prime) are still amongst the top times being recorded from elite swimmers today (i.e. the top times haven't really changed that much in her events over the past 20 years or so)....so clearly getting either close to her best times or surpassing them slightly will put her at the very top of the heap by today's standards as well as back when she was in college....And it is true that Rich's times from when he was in college are not nearly as close to the top times today as Darra's are......but thats an unfair comparison IMO since he swam in college over 40 years ago (not 20 years ago like in Darra's case)....and 40 years ago is a much different story than 20 years ago. No one was swimming times 40 years ago in the 50 or the 100 free (male or female) that are reasonably comparable to the times being swum in those events now ....not even the world record holders in those events.

SECONDLY: The main point I was making in my first posting about Rich Abrahams was that he was most defintiely amongst the ultra elite swimmers during his prime ....and he was able to get so close to his best times in both the 50 and 100 free some 30-35 years after college (and after a major layoff before getting back into it again), that from any reasonable scientific standpoint IMO, Rich has more than proven that ultra elite swimmers can get very close (or even slightly surpass) their best times from college many many years later (in Rich's case 35 years later in fact).....this was the suppostion that Geek said had never been proven before.....As far as the difference between actually breaking your best times verses being within a few tenths of a second of them....I say who cares? What is the real difference between being a few tenths away from your best times or surpassing your best times by a couple of tenths of a second in the context of this discussion anyway??.....we are talking about the difference of a half a second or so here by trying to separate slightly surpassing best times verses coming astronomically close to your best times....From a purely scientific standpoint, either of these feats should IMO be more than sufficient to establish the possibility that a swimmer that was considered once to be amongst the ultra elite during his or her prime (back in college lets say) can in fact perform on the same basic level (more or less) as they did back in college many years later without needing performance enhancing drugs to do it....and that was the real point of that particular argument was it not? ...or am I missing something here? I also couldn't help but notice that Geek never actually responded to my postings about Rich Abrahams even though he was the one who made the claim that no ultra elite swimmer had ever done this kind of thing before? My posting about Rich was a direct response (and challenge) to this claim. So I guess I can conclude that Geek has conceded this point to me then since he never even attempted to provide any counter arguments to it?

knelson
August 8th, 2007, 12:44 AM
From a purely scientific standpoint, either of these feats should IMO be more than sufficient to establish the possibility that a swimmer that was considered once to be amongst the ultra elite during his or her prime (back in college lets say) can in fact perform on the same basic level (more or less) as they did back in college many years later without needing performance enhancing drugs to do it....and that was the real point of that particular argument was it not? ...or am I missing something here?

Yes, you're missing that if they agree to this (valid) point it will shoot down their argument that Dara "must" be doping.

The only other way to look at it is they must also assume Rich Abrahams is also doping.

swimr4life
August 8th, 2007, 12:55 AM
Very possible Geek. But there are enough adults on here who believe the same thing.

Add me to the list of believers. She trains very hard, is extremely talented and has a love of competition.....I have nothing but admiration for her. She is my hero. I think all you naysayers need to lighten up and look at this as an extremely positive thing to promote Masters. We should be singing her praises instead of doubting and second guessing her amazing performances!

I think training techniques have come so far. I know I used to train megayardage back in my teens. 10,000 yds in one workout was not unusual. At the age of 44, swimming about 5 days a week and only 4-5,000 yds, I almost did a lifetime best in the 50 and the 100 free due to training sprint workouts. Sprint training has changed immensely since the late 70s and early 80's. Its more about quality ...not quantity. I think Dara probably would have swam AMAZINGLY faster when she was younger using the training techniques she is using today.

I beleive she is clean and deserves every bit of success because she has earned it the good old fashioned way......hard, smart work.

GGS5T
August 8th, 2007, 04:03 AM
She won the 200IM in Atlanta. Pretty much everyone at the time thought she was doped, if I remember correctly.

I'll refresh your memory.

Ireland's Michelle Smith was a triple gold medallist at the Atlanta games, winning the 200m IM, 400m IM and the 400m freestyle. She also won bronze in the 200m fly.

Some deal of controversy followed the victories, particularly after US swimmer Janet Evans at a press conference accused Smith of doping immediately following Evans' defeat.

It's always difficult for some people to accept defeat when a foreign swimmer comes to compete in your own back yard and defeats the local hero.

I was invited, as one of six journalists, (I was the only swimmer amongst the other scribblers) to one particular training session in 1995 where Michelle Smith was doing mammoth sets of butterfly. I have never seen a swimmer work as hard as her. I came away believing that psychologically and physically she could cope better than any other swimmer in the world.

I watched in awe as she swam a set of 40 x 200m (this was in a short course pool) all on fly. The rest interval for the first 10 swims was only 10 seconds. The rest interval was increased to 30 seconds for the remaining 30 swims.

Believe what you want about the 'enhanced' performances in Atlanta, but try doing a set of 40 x 200m on fly first. Then give your verdict.

As for Dara Torres, can't you Yanks simply rejoice? She's incredible. Give her your support.

dorothyrde
August 8th, 2007, 05:42 AM
Being in my thirties as well (EARLY thirties I might add) I also feel it is possible. By "it", I mean doping or not doping. I realize that either option is a possibility, never say never. However, I am giving her the benefit of the doubt. She has been very upfront about any and all testing so I will err on the side of innocence until evidence suggests otherwise.

Being in my upper 40's(yikes), while I in no way can compare to Dara, I am in 10 times better shape than I was 10 years ago. I am actually fairly amazed at how exercise and working out hard has kept my body from going downhill in the 40's. My ownly bane is weight, and Dara clearly does not have that issue.

So I CAN believe no doping just because what I have been able to accomplish with this old no talent body!

The Fortress
August 8th, 2007, 08:39 AM
Believe what you want about the 'enhanced' performances in Atlanta, but try doing a set of 40 x 200m on fly first. Then give your verdict.

No one said that dopers don't work hard. They appear to be very motivated. And Smith did test positive later.

I'm sure Dara's changed training regimen, combined with her consistent fitness, is the key to her success. She does look amazing.

Leonard Jansen
August 8th, 2007, 08:58 AM
No one ever believed it possible to go under 9.80 seconds in the 100m sprint, until Ben Johnson did it in 1988.


Not quite. Talk of times like that started as early as 1964 with Bob Hayes' anchor time (in the 9.6 range) of the 4x100 relay at the Tokyo Olympics.

Still, your sarcastic point is noted.

-LBJ

Leonard Jansen
August 8th, 2007, 09:08 AM
Question: With all this talk of Ms. Torres (we don't know each other well enough for me to call her Dara), being dirty, let me ask this of the pro-dirty people: If she is, indeed, dirty, why is she having her blood/urine/whatever frozen for possible future analysis?

If it's a gamble on her part, it's an odd gamble, given that we could also possibly test for designer steroids, etc later on as well.

Note that Paula Radcliffe, the women's marathon record holder, has also done the same.

Why would a SANE cheater do this?

-LBJ

newmastersswimmer
August 8th, 2007, 09:15 AM
Question: With all this talk of Ms. Torres (we don't know each other well enough for me to call her Dara), being dirty, let me ask this of the pro-dirty people: If she is, indeed, dirty, why is she having her blood/urine/whatever frozen for possible future analysis?

If it's a gamble on her part, it's an odd gamble, given that we could also possibly test for designer steroids, etc later on as well.

Note that Paula Radcliffe, the women's marathon record holder, has also done the same.

Why would a SANE cheater do this?

-LBJ


Thats a realy good question Leonard.....its a question that has now been posed both here and on the other thread about Darra now several times by various posters including myself....but yet I've never heard any of the doubters or outright accusers make any real attempt to answer this question so far (as far as I can tell?).

SwimStud
August 8th, 2007, 09:18 AM
I think training techniques have come so far. I know I used to train megayardage back in my teens. 10,000 yds in one workout was not unusual. At the age of 44, swimming about 5 days a week and only 4-5,000 yds, I almost did a lifetime best in the 50 and the 100 free due to training sprint workouts. Sprint training has changed immensely since the late 70s and early 80's. Its more about quality ...not quantity. I think Dara probably would have swam AMAZINGLY faster when she was younger using the training techniques she is using today.



Beth, you know this could be a huge factor....without opening up the engine building/vessel shaping can again...

I voted "maybe" because "maybe" means the possibility is there because nobody is with her 24/7--but that goes for anyone. I hope (and by her actions with testing think) that she's straight up, and will override my cynicsm for faith in people, this doesn't mean Ii disparage those who feel she is not "straight up." Something fantastic is happening, and she seems to be making every effort to tackle the "issue" head on.
Remarkable things have to happen sometimes...right?

newmastersswimmer
August 8th, 2007, 09:26 AM
Add me to the list of believers. She trains very hard, is extremely talented and has a love of competition.....I have nothing but admiration for her. She is my hero. I think all you naysayers need to lighten up and look at this as an extremely positive thing to promote Masters. We should be singing her praises instead of doubting and second guessing her amazing performances!

I think training techniques have come so far. I know I used to train megayardage back in my teens. 10,000 yds in one workout was not unusual. At the age of 44, swimming about 5 days a week and only 4-5,000 yds, I almost did a lifetime best in the 50 and the 100 free due to training sprint workouts. Sprint training has changed immensely since the late 70s and early 80's. Its more about quality ...not quantity. I think Dara probably would have swam AMAZINGLY faster when she was younger using the training techniques she is using today.

I beleive she is clean and deserves every bit of success because she has earned it the good old fashioned way......hard, smart work.


Great point Beth! I especially like the way you ended with earning it the good old fashion way....hard, SMART work.....with the emphasis on SMART here. This also re-iterates a point I made earlier about the trememdous strides that have occurred in recent years about the technical aspects associated to swimming (and in this case sprinting and sprint training in particular). This is an aspect that somehow appears to not being taken nearly as seriously as it should by some in this particular debate IMO.

some_girl
August 8th, 2007, 09:38 AM
Why should the onus be on us? Her swimming these times is proof enough for me that it can be done without drugs. I can't say with certainty whether she cheated or not, but until such a time as someone shows hard evidence that she did, I'll believe she's clean.

You are the ones who keep trying to prove your arguments, digging up more evidence. I am content to think it's fishy.

some_girl
August 8th, 2007, 09:48 AM
Question: With all this talk of Ms. Torres (we don't know each other well enough for me to call her Dara), being dirty, let me ask this of the pro-dirty people: If she is, indeed, dirty, why is she having her blood/urine/whatever frozen for possible future analysis?

If it's a gamble on her part, it's an odd gamble, given that we could also possibly test for designer steroids, etc later on as well.

Note that Paula Radcliffe, the women's marathon record holder, has also done the same.

Why would a SANE cheater do this?

-LBJ


Haven't you read Hamlet? Ladies, protesting, etc. If she is cheating,* I can only think she is doing it well. Besides, no one thinks they are the person to get caught. Why do you think jails are full?



* Despite the fact that I am amused by all the strident certainty that she is clean as pure white snow, I have never said she must be cheating--only that it is so very suspicious. Honestly, how would I know? I just think it is silly you think you do.

SwimStud
August 8th, 2007, 10:01 AM
etc later on as well.

Note that Paula Radcliffe, the women's marathon record holder, has also done the same.


-LBJ

and Ms Radcliffe broke down in Athens as it went "pear-shaped" for her. So it seems odd that she would invest her time and effort with drugs and get a crap return like that...IMHO

knelson
August 8th, 2007, 10:22 AM
Why would a SANE cheater do this?

They would if they knew they were clean at the time the blood and urine were taken, which doesn't mean they have always been clean.

TheGoodSmith
August 8th, 2007, 10:32 AM
Great point Beth! I especially like the way you ended with earning it the good old fashion way....hard, SMART work.....with the emphasis on SMART here. This also re-iterates a point I made earlier about the trememdous strides that have occurred in recent years about the technical aspects associated to swimming (and in this case sprinting and sprint training in particular). This is an aspect that somehow appears to not being taken nearly as seriously as it should by some in this particular debate IMO.

Jim,

The issue is not whether Dara is talented or ever worked hard in her career. The issue is her apparent "edge" over both her peers her age and the next generation she is now competing against. No one has ever said she did not put in the mileage at some point in her career. Due note though that EVERY national champion and finalist put in the yardage at some point in their career. As you probably know, this creates "baseline" for their career. Also note, there are no older swimmers (i.e. over 30) winning events 200 and above. Ron Karnaugh is the closest "old man" at nationals to ever do that, and he couldn't pull it off..... let alone set an American record in the 200 IM. (Thank goodness he scratched the 200IM next to me at Stanford Worlds.... otherwise I would have had to scratch) Older swimmers swim off a certain amount of there previously established baseline and compete in the short events for an obvious reason. Their bodies and minds can't handle the pounding in the middle distance events and beyond any more at a national level. In addition, most get stronger and are able to sprint better as they get in their early 20s so they come down in their events.

I am curious as to what kind of training Dara did during her two 6-7 year absences that kept her so fit? 13 years off is a long long time for national caliber competition.

Have there been advancements in training since the 1980s when she made her first national teams.... most certainly. Are they hugely significant or refinements in coaching ..... I would say they are merely refinements in training ideologies and not radical improvements. Times for the field (top 8) have NOT dramatically improved in the last 25 years if you take away the changes in strokes for fly, back and breast as well as the effect of the full body suit you'd be surprised how well the times from many of the events back then still hold up. The winners, on the onther hand, have improved MUCH more than the field itself over the same period. I submit to you that the biggest advancements in coaching and training in swimming came in the 1970s and early 1980s. Compare those times for the field at nationals 25 years earlier (say 1959 to 1984)...... its a phenomenal drop.


John Smith

Leonard Jansen
August 8th, 2007, 10:51 AM
Haven't you read Hamlet? Ladies, protesting, etc. If she is cheating,* I can only think she is doing it well. Besides, no one thinks they are the person to get caught. Why do you think jails are full?



* Despite the fact that I am amused by all the strident certainty that she is clean as pure white snow, I have never said she must be cheating--only that it is so very suspicious. Honestly, how would I know? I just think it is silly you think you do.

Indeed. Nowhere have I asserted that she is clean and that I know it. Neither have I asserted that you or anyone else is wrong (or right) in your beliefs. In fact, I have asserted that there is no real proof either way. However, what I am asking for from the pro-dirty side is critical thought: Why would a person pay to set themselves up for one of the biggest black eyes in the history of sport when they could easily say (as have many) "Hey, I passed all the drug tests I took at the time."

To say that "no one thinks they are the person to get caught" may be true at some level and yet I know of no bank robber (e.g.) that takes pictures of themselves robbing a bank and then gives said pictures to the police thinking that they won't be used.

Kirk's reply has some speculative plausibility to it. But in addressing that, what do we KNOW regarding the circumstances and timing of the collection of the stored samples? Furthermore, today's test sensitivities/technologies are not tomorrow's test sensitivities/technologies.

Perhaps she is guilty - guity of Shakespearean hubris at its grandest.

-LBJ

newmastersswimmer
August 8th, 2007, 12:10 PM
Jim,

The issue is not whether Dara is talented or ever worked hard in her career. The issue is her apparent "edge" over both her peers her age and the next generation she is now competing against. No one has ever said she did not put in the mileage at some point in her career. Due note though that EVERY national champion and finalist put in the yardage at some point in their career. As you probably know, this creates "baseline" for their career. Also note, there are no older swimmers (i.e. over 30) winning events 200 and above. Ron Karnaugh is the closest "old man" at nationals to ever do that, and he couldn't pull it off..... let alone set an American record in the 200 IM. (Thank goodness he scratched the 200IM next to me at Stanford Worlds.... otherwise I would have had to scratch) Older swimmers swim off a certain amount of there previously established baseline and compete in the short events for an obvious reason. Their bodies and minds can't handle the pounding in the middle distance events and beyond any more at a national level. In addition, most get stronger and are able to sprint better as they get in their early 20s so they come down in their events.

I am curious as to what kind of training Dara did during her two 6-7 year absences that kept her so fit? 13 years off is a long long time for national caliber competition.

Have there been advancements in training since the 1980s when she made her first national teams.... most certainly. Are they hugely significant or refinements in coaching ..... I would say they are merely refinements in training ideologies and not radical improvements. Times for the field (top 8) have NOT dramatically improved in the last 25 years if you take away the changes in strokes for fly, back and breast as well as the effect of the full body suit you'd be surprised how well the times from many of the events back then still hold up. The winners, on the onther hand, have improved MUCH more than the field itself over the same period. I submit to you that the biggest advancements in coaching and training in swimming came in the 1970s and early 1980s. Compare those times for the field at nationals 25 years earlier (say 1959 to 1984)...... its a phenomenal drop.


John Smith

While I agree that the difference in time drops over various intervals of time is interesting and relevant to this discussion (especially considering the larger time drops between the time Rich was in college to when Darra was in college compared to the time drops between when Darra was in college to the present),.....I want to point out that I never said nor implied (IMO) that I believed the issue was about whether Dara is talented or ever worked hard in her career (as you put it)....or that she put in a sufficient amount of mileage......What Beth was saying (and I was agreeing with) is that the difference in the ways she approaches the sport (most definitely in the way she trains) compared to the way she approached the sport 20 years ago sounds significant enough to possibly explain her recent success (along with other things that Beth mentioned as well)....the reason I feel that way is b/c I apparently have placed more stock (i.e. faith I suppose) into the possibility that these new innovations in training methods and technically related issues based on hydrodynamics and energy efficiency etc....may have the capacity to make more of a difference than what you apparently believe they can based on many of your prior postings....And while I'm on that particular subject I will say that I think you have presented reasonable evidence IMO to support your position on that particular aspect of this discussion....but I just want to make sure we understand eachother about some of what I consider to be the important issues exactly.....And those specific things you mentioned at the beggining of your posting (taken by themselves) are not amongst those things.

DanSad
August 8th, 2007, 12:40 PM
I happened to see a picture of Dara on www.wcsn.com that looked eye catching. It doesn't mean she's guilty or not, just thought it went along with this discussion. It's the 3rd picture in the link below.

http://web.wcsn.com/gen/photogallery/wcsn/year_2007/month_08/day_05/cf37480.html?sport=34001

scyfreestyler
August 8th, 2007, 12:44 PM
What about it? One need not use drugs to get that sort of muscular hypertrophy.

The Fortress
August 8th, 2007, 12:47 PM
She's very lean and very ripped in the photo. I think that can be done naturally. I will say that when my daughter watched her on the webcast she thought she looked like a guy with the bodyskin on though.

I wonder, Mr. Goodsmith, whether, given new training innovations for sprinters, future national champions will not put in the yardage to get an aerobic baseline? Maybe they'll adopt the "train smarter" approach at an earlier age? I don't really know. It seems like the elite kids I know are still putting in a lot of yardage ... but then none of them focus exclusively on sprint freestyle events either.

DanSad
August 8th, 2007, 12:47 PM
Right, I said "It doesn't mean she's guilty or not". Drugs make it easier.

scyfreestyler
August 8th, 2007, 12:50 PM
She's very lean and very ripped in the photo. Good for her. I will say that when my daughter watched her on the webcast she thought she looked like a guy with the bodyskin on though.

I wonder, Mr. Goodsmith, whether, given new training innovations for sprinters, future national champions will not put in the yardage to get an aerobic baseline. Maybe they'll adopt the "train smarter" approach at an earlier age? I don't really know. It seems like the elite kids I know are still putting in a lot of yardage ...


I think yardage required to be "elite" has much to do with the distance of your event. Being a 50/100 specialist is not going to require the same training as a middle distance swimmer or an IM swimmer.

aquageek
August 8th, 2007, 12:56 PM
Wow - those are some guns, 50 calibres. There is a girl at our gym with those types of hammers, she has a deep voice.

CreamPuff
August 8th, 2007, 01:02 PM
First impression is that body type could be a man's. Her arms are so ripped they look like they have webbing.

The Fortress
August 8th, 2007, 01:03 PM
Wow - those are some guns, 50 calibres. There is a girl at our gym with those types of hammers, she has a deep voice.

I got hammers, but the sweetest little voice in the world.

I'm not sure those hammers look any different than Jenny Thompson or Amy Van Dyken though.

SwimStud
August 8th, 2007, 01:06 PM
Wow - those are some guns, 50 calibres. There is a girl at our gym with those types of hammers, she has a deep voice.

Congratulations!

aquageek
August 8th, 2007, 01:28 PM
Congratulations!

Seriously, hanging out with the USMS coffee klatsch (Smith boys) is even more interesting than reading your scores of no-value-add posts.

SwimStud
August 8th, 2007, 01:36 PM
Seriously, hanging out with the USMS coffee klatsch (Smith boys) is even more interesting than reading your scores of no-value-add posts.

I was just merely trying to commend you on your athletic achievements...value is where you find it. ;)

knelson
August 8th, 2007, 01:53 PM
First impression is that body type could be a man's. Her arms are so ripped they look like they have webbing.

She's definitely ripped, but these photos can be deceptive. Have you ever seen the photos of pro women tennis players? Check out this one of Elena Dementieva, for example: http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070807/capt.14b2ad186d2d4386928fa540eefdcb5f.carson_east_ west_bank_tennis_hdc108.jpg

You'd look at that and think she must be juicing, but take a look at this and she doesn't look unusual: http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070730/capt.15f0e6f925d04b088e5d71df957c1dce.carlsbad_ten nis_cadp104.jpg

Hard to believe it's even the same person! :)

SwimStud
August 8th, 2007, 02:01 PM
She's definitely ripped, but these photos can be deceptive. Have you ever seen the photos of pro women tennis players? Check out this one of Elena Dementieva, for example: http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070807/capt.14b2ad186d2d4386928fa540eefdcb5f.carson_east_ west_bank_tennis_hdc108.jpg

You'd look at that and think she must be juicing, but take a look at this and she doesn't look unusual: http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070730/capt.15f0e6f925d04b088e5d71df957c1dce.carlsbad_ten nis_cadp104.jpg

Hard to believe it's even the same person! :)

The photo as she's diving off the blocks is a little unfair...all of us will engage the majority of our muscles in the start. If she looks like that just relaxing in a dress then OK that's a little different.

tjburk
August 8th, 2007, 02:07 PM
Always remember there are those out the that DR. photos, and that a lot of them have been enhanced some way or another. With technology today, it's amazing what can be done.....

CreamPuff
August 8th, 2007, 02:50 PM
The photo as she's diving off the blocks is a little unfair...all of us will engage the majority of our muscles in the start. If she looks like that just relaxing in a dress then OK that's a little different.

Kirk, excellent example of how one can look completely different from one pic to the next.

My, my stud. I don't even own a dress. I look WAAAAAAAY too beastly in 'em - whether I'm relaxing or doing push ups. BTW, I was going to take a poll on this - but hubby told me, "Don't get too big" when I said I was going to switch to weights three times a week (from two). Cripes. :frustrated:
Why can't I be happy joining our local gardening club?

SwimStud
August 8th, 2007, 02:53 PM
Kirk, excellent example of how one can look completely different from one pic to the next.

My, my stud. I don't even own a dress. I look WAAAAAAAY too beastly in 'em - whether I'm relaxing or doing push ups. BTW, I was going to take a poll on this - but hubby told me, "Don't get too big" when I said I was going to switch to weights three times a week (from two). Cripes. :frustrated:
Why can't I be happy joining our local gardening club?

hubby is scared you'll be able to arm wrestle him and win the remote...then he'll be forced to endure countless soppy chick-flicks, Oprah, Desperate Housewives, Dr. Phil etc etc etc.

Ask him if he'd prefer you to quit and balloon to 300. Guys...don't know when they have it good...
:doh:

PS I seen your promdress...and you look gorgeous.

newmastersswimmer
August 8th, 2007, 02:59 PM
Jim,

..... Also note, there are no older swimmers (i.e. over 30) winning events 200 and above. Ron Karnaugh is the closest "old man" at nationals to ever do that, and he couldn't pull it off..... let alone set an American record in the 200 IM.

John Smith

I just wanted to add one more thing in regards to this particular comment you made John.....and that has to do with events 200 and above verses 50's and 100's. While I agree with your assertions here on this particular aspect....I don't agree, however, that this particular aspect is all that relevant to the Darra Torres situation. First of all, the relatively new training innovations Beth was referring to in her posting specifically have to do with sprint training....(as in 50's or 100's). This is also connected IMO to what your old Longhorn buddy The Raz had to say about Rich Abraham's unique style of training.....Perhaps Rich was on to something several years before it became more widely recognized? Certainly Phelps showed an amazing improvement in his sprinting as well in the last World Championships (in the 100 free that he led off the 4 x 100 free relay as well as in the 100 fly)....granted Phelps showed pretty big improvements in all of his races and not just the sprints....but I remember talk at the time about how Bowman was using new innovations in how he was traing Phelps specifically to increase his sprinting performances during the time of that meet. If there are in fact some significant new innovations in sprint training that have recently started to make a significant difference for some sprinters like Darra, it may take a little more time before the effects of these new methods become more apparent and hence catch more widespread attention? Its hard to say....but certainly it seems feasible enough to me at least to reserve judgement about Darra at this point for this and other reasons that have been stated here as well...(this is my opinion of course).

Also, in terms of no one winning any major swimming championships over the age of 30 in events 200 are over....why not look at events more comparable to Darra...like the 50 and/or 100? I have been searching the internet for more examples of this (and so far have stuck with male swimmers only) and so far I have found a few notable swims along these lines (i.e. notable swims in the 50 and/or 100 by males over the age of 30)....so far the top of my list includes Alexander Popov winning the World Championsips in the 50 free in Barcelona in 2003 at the age of 32 I believe.....He won the event in an impressive 21.92 (which is within 3 tenths of a second of his World Record)....Tom Jager didn't fair quite as well when he tried to make the Olympic team in 1996 (which would have also been at around age 32 I believe?).....but I believe that he did swim 50's that were at (or farily close to) the top of the heap up until he was around 30 or so?. It would be interesting to see how Matt Biondi would have faired over the years if he had not decided to retire before the age of 30....I've heard rumors that he still swims and is not that much slower in the 50 now compared to when he was in his prime?.....but unless Matt comes out of nowhere sometime down the road to prove this fact, then it remains only a rumor for now I suppose.

ande
August 8th, 2007, 04:08 PM
Is Dara dirty?

I'm sure no one would argue that she cleans up well.

Also I'm sure there'd be many takers from this list to assist her clean up herself, her home, and or her car.

uh you missed a spot.

A

"That's it, boy. Get in there nice and deep like."
~ Dodgeball
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0364725/quotes

CreamPuff
August 8th, 2007, 06:30 PM
hubby is scared you'll be able to arm wrestle him and win the remote...then he'll be forced to endure countless soppy chick-flicks, Oprah, Desperate Housewives, Dr. Phil etc etc etc.

Ask him if he'd prefer you to quit and balloon to 300. Guys...don't know when they have it good...
:doh:

PS I seen your promdress...and you look gorgeous.

Thanks stud. :joker:

You forgot Lifetime, Oxygen and the Spanish Channel.

swimr4life
August 8th, 2007, 09:15 PM
I'm embarassed to admit this but I have big guns too and it is au naturale. I don't even lift weights and get asked if I'm a bodybuilder all the time. Its kind of embarrassing.:blush:
The reason I bring this up is that sprinters tend to have this body type. Dara is definitely a natural born sprinter. Just because she is ripped it doesn't mean she's juiced.

The Fortress
August 8th, 2007, 10:16 PM
I'm embarassed to admit this but I have big guns too and it is au naturale. I don't even lift weights and get asked if I'm a bodybuilder all the time. Its kind of embarrassing.:blush:
The reason I bring this up is that sprinters tend to have this body type.

Me too, twin! :party2: I think I said on the other thread that my kids joke that I'm on 'roids. Now, if you had been able to take your guns to colonies zones, we could have compared!

FlyQueen
August 8th, 2007, 10:30 PM
Awh, all the FAF's have big guns. When I had my shoulder looked at two years ago the PT did not believe me that I didn't lift. He kept asking me how often I was lifting. I started lifting yesterday and will probably resemble He-Man by Nationals if I actually keep up with it.

Rob Copeland
August 8th, 2007, 11:17 PM
I'm embarassed to admit this but I have big guns too and it is au naturale. And talking of guns, have you seem our webmaster lately?

scyfreestyler
August 8th, 2007, 11:20 PM
Where is the vomiting emoticon?

The Fortress
August 8th, 2007, 11:21 PM
Look what the boys do to keep up with the FAFs ...

ALM
August 8th, 2007, 11:40 PM
And talking of guns, have you seen our webmaster lately?

Hmmm, he's sitting right next to me but it sure doesn't look like...

Maybe if he takes off his shirt... Or maybe I really don't want to know...

Anna Lea

SwimStud
August 8th, 2007, 11:44 PM
Maybe if he takes off his shirt...

That's enough of that! The water comes outta the hose at around 50 degrees..it's not fun...

ALM
August 8th, 2007, 11:57 PM
Where is the vomiting emoticon?

Right here...

scyfreestyler
August 9th, 2007, 12:00 AM
Right here...

Thanks! That expresses my sentiments quite well.

matysekj
August 9th, 2007, 12:38 AM
And talking of guns, have you seem our webmaster lately?

Pretty bold move for someone with such a girlie man avatar, Rob.

http://forums.usms.org/member.php?u=11

scyfreestyler
August 9th, 2007, 12:57 AM
Dirty, dirty trick. I love it!

swimr4life
August 9th, 2007, 02:42 AM
And talking of guns, have you seem our webmaster lately?

Based on that picture, I think he does steroids....ya think?:rofl: GROSS! That is not a pretty site!

tjburk
August 9th, 2007, 09:08 AM
Somehow I just can't picture Rob in a Hello Kitty outfit for Halloween, but after seeing his Avatar I'm starting to wonder!!!!

scyfreestyler
August 14th, 2007, 11:44 PM
Bumping due to conversation in the other Dara thread.

Nathan
August 17th, 2007, 04:26 PM
Whoops. Meant to select "No" and apparently clicked "Maybe." May this thread adjust my position.

ande
March 30th, 2008, 06:25 AM
INTERESTING CHARTS

POPOV
http://swimrankings.net/index.php?page=athleteDetail&athleteId=13282&athletePage=RGRAPH&styleId=1&course=LCM

INGE
http://swimrankings.net/index.php?page=athleteDetail&athleteId=1542569&athletePage=RGRAPH&styleId=1&course=LCM

DARA TORRES
http://swimrankings.net/index.php?page=athleteDetail&athleteId=1542262&athletePage=RGRAPH&styleId=1&course=LCM

HMMM

tjburk
March 31st, 2008, 10:19 AM
Ande, very interesting to see how Popov was consistently in the 22's until the sharp drop in 2000.....and how he never really seriously came close to that again.

carlos_fernandez
March 31st, 2008, 10:31 AM
Ande, very interesting to see how Popov was consistently in the 22's until the sharp drop in 2000.....and how he never really seriously came close to that again.
Question on reading these charts:

What do the light blue dotted lines mean???? :oldman:

knelson
March 31st, 2008, 10:44 AM
What do the light blue dotted lines mean???? :oldman:

I assume those are all their swims (or at least, all swims in major competitions). The dark blue lines link a progression of their best times.

ande
March 31st, 2008, 11:03 AM
it just makes one wonder

how did inge and dara suddenly improve so much
in such a short amount of time

LindsayNB
March 31st, 2008, 11:11 AM
it just makes one wonder

how did inge and dara suddenly improve so much
in such a short amount of time

The article "Windmill Revolution" that Bill wrote and posted a link to correlated Inge's time drops with the change to a straight-arm-recovery style.

swimchick_77
March 31st, 2008, 11:30 AM
I think it was the shoulder tear that kind of sealed the deal for me. Obviously shoulder injuries are not uncommon in the swimming world, but when your ligaments start disconnecting from your bones at the same time that you're setting American records, and you also just happen to be 1 year post partum and nearly 40 years old, yeah, that makes me pretty suspicious.
:roids:

The Fortress
March 31st, 2008, 11:37 AM
it just makes one wonder

how did inge and dara suddenly improve so much
in such a short amount of time

Oh, I had sort of assumed Inge was doping ...

If Dara can do it, why not Gary Hall? He's years younger, still very fast obviously, but not setting ARs.

knelson
March 31st, 2008, 11:45 AM
it just makes one wonder

how did inge and dara suddenly improve so much
in such a short amount of time

Dara dropped 0.1 seconds in seven years. That's about the polar opposite of a sudden improvement in my book.


but when your ligaments start disconnecting from your bones at the same time that you're setting American records

Maybe she just started training a little too hard? Boy, this hardly seems conclusive to me.

scyfreestyler
March 31st, 2008, 11:47 AM
Oh, I had sort of assumed Inge was doping ...

If Dara can do it, why not Gary Hall? He's years younger, still very fast obviously, but not setting ARs.


Didn't Spitz swim a faster fly at 40 than he did in his 20's?

The Fortress
March 31st, 2008, 11:53 AM
Didn't Spitz swim a faster fly at 40 than he did in his 20's?

No ARs though.

Speaking for the women, having a baby at 39 is no walk in the park no matter how fit you are.

I need to read Bill's article. Although Dara clearly is the opposite of windmilling.

scyfreestyler
March 31st, 2008, 12:00 PM
No ARs though.




Forget the AR portion of the equation. Just look at the drop in seconds. This of course, would require me to know how much faster Spitz swam...and I don't. :help: Anyhow, I think times dropped at a faster rate in the fly events than in the freestyle events during the time periods in question.

geochuck
March 31st, 2008, 12:04 PM
I really do not like this thread. What I would like to see it called is
Dara Is Clean... Poll

Too many negative people here.

smontanaro
March 31st, 2008, 12:11 PM
how did inge and dara suddenly improve so much
in such a short amount of time

I thought we had established conclusively that Inge's big advantage was her fingernails. :bolt:

Skip

knelson
March 31st, 2008, 12:12 PM
Didn't Spitz swim a faster fly at 40 than he did in his 20's?

No, he didn't. His world record time from Munich was a 54.27 in the 100 fly. His best time during his comeback attempt in 1992 was 58.03. He didn't even make the Trials cut.

Frank Thompson
March 31st, 2008, 12:15 PM
Didn't Spitz swim a faster fly at 40 than he did in his 20's?

No. In fact not even close. This statement is taken from another thread called Dara Torres is Amazing thread in post 110 in answering the question.

The Spitz comparison is a very weak one. Spitz did not stay active the way Dara did when he made his comeback. He took 17 years off from swimming and from physical sports activity. Spitz is probably the most talented swimmer ever. His workouts were legendary because no one did workouts like he did and was able to be that good. When Spitz tried to make a comeback he managed to go :58.03 in the 100 meter Fly and the Olympic Trial qualifying time was :55.59 and he wasn't even close. Dara Torres goes to Stanford last year and goes :25.98 leading off a Relay that I know you were a witness to and easily makes the Olympic standard without any publicity. That fact that it took Spitz 2 full years to do a time that came up almost 2.5 seconds from qualifying and it took Dara qualifing easily after having a baby 3 months before the swim says something. Plus I don't believe Spitz went to any of the big competitions that Dara has gone to and the only races I remember seeing him in in his comeback were the TV prize races against Biondi and Jager where he was soundly beaten.

There was a lot of incentive for him to do this because Bud Greenspan was going to make a film of his comeback if he were successful. The fact that his :54.27 time in 1972 would have placed him 3rd in the 1989 USA LCM rankings made people believe he could do it. My understanding is that Dara is doing this on her own and there are no financial incentives attached yet. It will be interesting to see how far she goes and what happens.

You are correct about Rowdy. He was 29 when he missed making the 1988 Olympic team by .07 in the 100 Meter Free. You still have not answered my question. Do you believe that Dara Torres is using performancing enhancing drugs and is that the reason for her success? I agree there are more drugs and illegal supplements out there but does that mean that Dara Torress is using performance enhancing drugs?

swimchick_77
March 31st, 2008, 12:16 PM
Maybe she just started training a little too hard? Boy, this hardly seems conclusive to me.

I would agree if it were the only "evidence" of steroid use. Certainly there are a good number of swimmers who tear shoulder ligaments and require surgery. But, as I noted in my original post, it's like one of about 5 or 6 things that, all together, are just a little too much for me to believe.

JMiller
March 31st, 2008, 12:18 PM
Wow, that Popov chart is interesting... It's amazing to see how much he raced, and how often he was in the low 22's...

scyfreestyler
March 31st, 2008, 12:20 PM
Thanks for the clarification Frank.

Stillhere
April 1st, 2008, 01:53 PM
Frank, I know you did not ask me this question, but I would like to answer it!

"Do you believe that Dara Torres is using performancing enhancing drugs and is that the reason for her success?"

Yes, I do! Way to many things that just do not add up---

Frank, what do you think?