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View Full Version : Dara Torres--not doping!



SwimStud
August 5th, 2007, 06:42 PM
Just though we ought to have a third thread on the subject.
I definitely think there is something odd going on.
That said Odd doesn't neccessarily have to mean doping/drugs.

It could be natural and extraordinary odd. Like 8ft Chinese men; or 6 legged lambs...

Thanks.

scyfreestyler
August 5th, 2007, 08:16 PM
Totally agree. It is "odd" to a certain degree. This is certainly not a feat that can be accomplished by 95% of elite swimmers. Having said that, there are other athletes who accomplish feats that seem extraordinary...some of them within recent times. Three that come to mind are Lance Arnstrong, Paul Tergat (got that from Rob Copeland last week), and Michael Phelps. Without question, the things that each of these men have accomplished are nothing short of awe inspiring.

scyfreestyler
August 5th, 2007, 08:16 PM
Guess this means you did not get run over by Geek this weekend.

jim clemmons
August 5th, 2007, 08:40 PM
Guess this means you did not get run over by Geek this weekend.

Must've just missed him? Any strong breezes?

SwimStud
August 5th, 2007, 08:50 PM
Must've just missed him? Any strong breezes?

Nope I just ducked into the bushes anytime I saw anyone in spandex riding a bicycle with a bell and a basket on the front...:laugh2:

The Fortress
August 5th, 2007, 08:54 PM
I was thinking today that maybe Lance's accomplishments surpass Dara's. After all, he was almost dead from cancer and chemo and then subsequently went on his Tour rampage. He wasn't terribly young either by the end.

Peter Cruise
August 5th, 2007, 10:34 PM
Actually Stud, the Geek rides a bike made over to resemble a WW1 Sopwith Camel complete with rotating propellor and a machine pellet-gun synchronized to fire within the rotations of the prop. He targets anyone he judges overweight, an aquaciser or worst of all, a Canadian.

jaegermeister
August 5th, 2007, 10:52 PM
Carl Lewis may be another athlete who is somewhat comparable. We could compare and contrast for a long time- he not only put up great times, he won golds against heavy competition. He never took any time off that I know of. I have no idea how his training evolved. He was a sprinter. My recollection was that he was never seriously considered to have doped.

cowsvils
August 6th, 2007, 10:55 AM
I was thinking today that maybe Lance's accomplishments surpass Dara's. After all, he was almost dead from cancer and chemo and then subsequently went on his Tour rampage. He wasn't terribly young either by the end.
34 isn't really old for a cyclist, I know Lamond won his last tour at 34, Indarain was 31, Pantani was 31 also when he won.

The Fortress
August 6th, 2007, 11:02 AM
34 isn't really old for a cyclist, I know Lamond won his last tour at 34, Indarain was 31, Pantani was 31 also when he won.

True. I was thinking more of their unique physiologies that permitted them to comeback after a 7 year layoff (Dara) or near death (Lance). And Lance came back better than before, as Dara appears to be doing.

Pantani was a total doper who tested postitive and was caught. Have to throw him out.

It does appear that the older atheletes like Paul Tergat fare well in the longer endurance races. I think there's a rower from GBR that made multiple Olympic teams well into his late 30s too?

m2tall2
August 6th, 2007, 11:34 AM
My only wonder is how many elite athletes actually try to make a real comeback to former elite levels after a long layoff. Not many come to mind at all. I wonder if more elite athletes tried making a comeback there would be more to compare this to. Maybe it's not unusual to comeback better than you were the first time.

I think even many of us average level swimmers after having taken many years off after being highly competitive do come back better than we ever were. We get a second chance to retrain or muscles from scratch, we know what we did right and wrong the first time, and for many of us are bodies aren't THAT much the worse for wear.

I think a huge difference is that most of us trying to make personal comebacks as adults don't have enough time or resources to train the way we want to. What if you had time and resources that you didn't have when you were younger? Don't you think you could be faster now?

On a side note, I'm becoming more and more a fan of the idea that we start serious competitive swimming too young (for most people) in this country and that if we started as teenagers instead, we would peak in our late 20's to early 30's and be much faster.

SwimStud
August 6th, 2007, 11:44 AM
True. I was thinking more of their unique physiologies that permitted them to comeback after a 7 year layoff (Dara) or near death (Lance). And Lance came back better than before, as Dara appears to be doing.

Pantani was a total doper who tested postitive and was caught. Have to throw him out.

It does appear that the older atheletes like Paul Tergat fare well in the longer endurance races. I think there's a rower from GBR that made multiple Olympic teams well into his late 30s too?

Sir Steve Redgrave
http://www.steveredgrave.com/

FlyQueen
August 6th, 2007, 12:11 PM
I'm glad Lance came up here because I didn't want to bring him into the other thread (aka the blood bath). My thoughts (in case any of you care) cancer was the best thing to happen to Lance in terms of his career. (he admits this) It changed his body entirely. Thinned him out so he wasn't as muscular. That was a huge key in his Tour wins. Also he is/was sponsored by Bristol-Myers Squibb. He was taking 75? pills a day. I don't think he was taking HGH or blood doping. He had access to even better stuff. I doubt any of those things were illegal or would be considered to be illegal. He took them on camera many times. His insane work ethic and legendary physical freak genetics helped. I'd suspect him over Dara.

The Fortress
August 6th, 2007, 12:18 PM
I'm glad Lance came up here because I didn't want to bring him into the other thread (aka the blood bath). My thoughts (in case any of you care) cancer was the best thing to happen to Lance in terms of his career. (he admits this) It changed his body entirely. Thinned him out so he wasn't as muscular. That was a huge key in his Tour wins. Also he is/was sponsored by Bristol-Myers Squibb. He was taking 75? pills a day. I don't think he was taking HGH or blood doping. He had access to even better stuff. I doubt any of those things were illegal or would be considered to be illegal. He took them on camera many times. His insane work ethic and legendary physical freak genetics helped. I'd suspect him over Dara.

75 pills? Maybe they all have access to this "better stuff."

ALM
August 6th, 2007, 03:07 PM
I was thinking more of their unique physiologies that permitted them to comeback after a 7 year layoff (Dara) or near death (Lance). And Lance came back better than before, as Dara appears to be doing.

Greg LeMond was another comeback success. He won the Tour de France in 1986. In 1987, he was accidentally shot in the back by his brother-in-law. He came back to win the Tour in 1989, riding with 37 shotgun pellets remaining in his body (including some in the lining of his heart). He won the Tour for a third time in 1990.

I think the final stage of the 1989 Tour was the most exciting ever. I'd love to see it again. LeMond went into it trailing Laurent Fignon by 50 seconds. LeMond rode the time trial using aero bars, which were new at the time, and beat Fignon by 58 seconds. He won the overall Tour by a margin of 8 seconds.

Anna Lea

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 7th, 2007, 09:29 AM
I believe that Lance states that he received EPO during his recovery from cancer. That is a banned sbstance that remains inthe body for years, I believe. I have taken chemo and I know ohter peole who have had very serious cancers. You get tons of drugs.

hofffam
August 8th, 2007, 06:12 PM
Greg won his 3rd and last TDF in 1990. He was born in June of 1961 which means he just turned 29 before the 1990 tour. He was not 34.

The oldest TDF winner appears to be Firmin Lambot, 36, in 1922. The history of TDF winners can be found here. (http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdfindex.html)

Eddie Merckx was 29 for his last win. Indurain was 31. Lance was 33.

panzerkardinal
August 5th, 2008, 12:39 AM
Just some background.

I was an elite level weightlifter and a user of illegal performance enhancing drugs.

I can categorically state that any elite level athlete has available the resources to defeat any doping test.

You are "cycling" your drug usage so that when you are competing the level will be untraceable or easily explained. You are also constantly taking precursors which will produce performance enhancing properties but which are not banned. You test yourself to fine tune the system so that you will test clean.

Here are my opinions on both Lance Armstrong and Dara Torres.

Lance Armstrong from 1996 to the end of his professional career was using the services of Dr. Michele Ferrari.

Dr. Ferrari and many of his clients have admitted to blood doping. Dr. Ferrari was convicted of blood doping, but this conviction was later overturned due the expiration of the statute of limitations.

Five former members of Lance Armstrong's winning teams have tested positive for blood doping.

Finally back when Armstrong was competing the test for blood doping were not as sophisticated as they are today.

For me the most interesting thing about Dara Torres is that her boyfriend is an endocrinologist. Endocrinology deals with hormones, which are the primary type of performance enhancing substances. Endocrinologist are used often sought out for advice on how to dope effectively and how to test clean.

Dara Torres also uses bronchial dilators for asthma. She discovered that she had asthma around the same time she started breaking records.

I was always surprised with how many elite athletes have asthma. Interestingly Ian Thorpe also had asthma. It is convenient that bronchial dilators at high levels are a banned substance.

Torres states that she takes amino acid supplements which have a precursor effect.

These are only my opinions and observations.

gull
August 5th, 2008, 08:47 AM
Totally agree. It is "odd" to a certain degree. This is certainly not a feat that can be accomplished by 95% of elite swimmers. Having said that, there are other athletes who accomplish feats that seem extraordinary...some of them within recent times. Three that come to mind are Lance Arnstrong, Paul Tergat (got that from Rob Copeland last week), and Michael Phelps. Without question, the things that each of these men have accomplished are nothing short of awe inspiring.

I would say 99.9% of elite swimmers cannot accomplish what she has.

And I would not use Lance as an example. No way was he clean. And I am not referring to the epo he received while he was undergoing chemo--that is completely irrelevant.




I can categorically state that any elite level athlete has available the resources to defeat any doping test.

You are "cycling" your drug usage so that when you are competing the level will be untraceable or easily explained. You are also constantly taking precursors which will produce performance enhancing properties but which are not banned. You test yourself to fine tune the system so that you will test clean.



Thanks for the first hand account. In other words, a negative test means nothing.

tjburk
August 5th, 2008, 08:57 AM
Just some background.

I was an elite level weightlifter and a user of illegal performance enhancing drugs.

I can categorically state that any elite level athlete has available the resources to defeat any doping test.

You are "cycling" your drug usage so that when you are competing the level will be untraceable or easily explained. You are also constantly taking precursors which will produce performance enhancing properties but which are not banned. You test yourself to fine tune the system so that you will test clean.

Here are my opinions on both Lance Armstrong and Dara Torres.

Lance Armstrong from 1996 to the end of his professional career was using the services of Dr. Michele Ferrari.

Dr. Ferrari and many of his clients have admitted to blood doping. Dr. Ferrari was convicted of blood doping, but this conviction was later overturned due the expiration of the statute of limitations.

Five former members of Lance Armstrong's winning teams have tested positive for blood doping.

Finally back when Armstrong was competing the test for blood doping were not as sophisticated as they are today.

For me the most interesting thing about Dara Torres is that her boyfriend is an endocrinologist. Endocrinology deals with hormones, which are the primary type of performance enhancing substances. Endocrinologist are used often sought out for advice on how to dope effectively and how to test clean.

Dara Torres also uses bronchial dilators for asthma. She discovered that she had asthma around the same time she started breaking records.

I was always surprised with how many elite athletes have asthma. Interestingly Ian Thorpe also had asthma. It is convenient that bronchial dilators at high levels are a banned substance.

Torres states that she takes amino acid supplements which have a precursor effect.

These are only my opinions and observations.

She set her first WR at the age of 15 don't think she was Asthmatic back then.

The Fortress
August 5th, 2008, 08:59 AM
I was hoping we might get a first hand account. I'm curious, though, how do you avoid testing positive in random out-of-competition testing?

I don't find the fact that her boyfriend is an endocrinologist and that she has asthma very telling though. (Speaking as someone who's father was an endocrinologist and has mild asthma.) Lots of swimmers have asthma. An occasional hit from an inhaler in no way produces those results. Are you kidding? Look for some other hocus pocus formula.

aquageek
August 5th, 2008, 09:02 AM
This reminds me that now that my daughter has recovered from pneumonia I've been green lighted by the wifely one to try out her albuterol inhaler at my next swim workout. I'll report back.

The Fortress
August 5th, 2008, 09:07 AM
Better do some PBs, Geekity, or you'll disappoint the SBBs.

aquageek
August 5th, 2008, 09:12 AM
SBBs?

mctrusty
August 5th, 2008, 09:14 AM
I was hoping we might get a first hand account. I'm curious, though, how do you avoid testing positive in random out-of-competition testing?

I don't find the fact that her boyfriend is an endocrinologist and that she has asthma very telling though. (Speaking as someone who's father was an endocrinologist and has asthma.) Lots of swimmers have asthma. An occasional hit from an inhaler in no way produces those results. Absolutely ridiculous. Look for some other hocus pocus formula.

It gives her an excuse in the case of a positive test, as do the amino acid supplement claims -- especially in random testing. Much like marking the good old poppyseed muffin on an employer's drug screen.

The Fortress
August 5th, 2008, 09:16 AM
SBBs?

Smiths By Birth. Didn't you read LBJ's murder story?

How does it give her an "excuse" in strict liability testing exactly?

aquageek
August 5th, 2008, 09:18 AM
It gives her an excuse in the case of a positive test, as do the amino acid supplement claims -- especially in random testing. Much like marking the good old poppyseed muffin on an employer's drug screen.

Many many moons ago when I handled liability claims we had a lady sue our insured drug testing lab because she tested positive for cocaine and claimed it was impossible unless her poppyseed bagel caused the false positive. I think we told her she would have had to have ingested about 100 dozen bagels to get to the level she tested at and the suit went away.

This is an interesting angle you bring up - take as much legal stuff as you possibly can in addition to illegal stuff so that if/when you test positive you have an automatic fall back position. Clever.

mctrusty
August 5th, 2008, 09:58 AM
Smiths By Birth. Didn't you read LBJ's murder story?

How does it give her an "excuse" in strict liability testing exactly?

If nothing else, it gives her a reason to cry foul. It may not get her off the hook as far as consequences, but it gives her some ground to fight from--a fallback position, like geek said. It certainly looks better to declare beforehand than to say afterwards, "wait, wait, I *was* at the local GNC the other day, by the way..." At the very least it could help her save face with friends and family.

Look, I wasn't saying it's not simply an act of full disclosure on her part to list any and all non-food items she's ingesting. I was just rephrasing what I thought the kardinal was saying regarding dodging drug tests.

SwimStud
August 5th, 2008, 10:14 AM
If nothing else, it gives her a reason to cry foul. It may not get her off the hook as far as consequences, but it gives her some ground to fight from--a fallback position, like geek said. It certainly looks better to declare beforehand than to say afterwards, "wait, wait, I *was* at the local GNC the other day, by the way..." At the very least it could help her save face with friends and family.

Look, I wasn't saying it's not simply an act of full disclosure on her part to list any and all non-food items she's ingesting. I was just rephrasing what I thought the kardinal was saying regarding dodging drug tests.

As much as I am open to a 41 year old woman doing something really extraordinary, and cleanly. If she's is doping and looking for a fall back defense I think she's in for a shock.

At 41 everyone knows it's a phenomenal achievement to make the games in swimming--clean or not. If there sadly turned out to be any questions in terms of funny substances down the line, I doubt people will give her any leeway. She knows she's already being doubted and many folks have the knives already sharpened and are just waiting to dig them in...if she's messing about, there will be no hiding place for her. I sincerely hope that, no evidence remains evidence of nothing.

hofffam
August 5th, 2008, 01:07 PM
34 isn't really old for a cyclist, I know Lamond won his last tour at 34, Indarain was 31, Pantani was 31 also when he won.

Greg Lemond last won the TDF in 1990 - he was 29 at the time
Miguel Indurain last one in 1995 - he was 31 at the time
Marco Pantani's one win was in 1998 - he was 28 at the time

Trichica
August 5th, 2008, 01:47 PM
Can we all just wait and see? I know that given what has happened in the past with doping, it is only natural to be a skeptical.

But, can we give the lady a break and see how the chips fall?

She is doing the 50 free--not the 500. She pulled out of the 100 because it was too much!!! They are holding her samples for a min of 5 years to continue to test it as methods develop--as per her request!!!!

I for one am THRILLED to see a middle aged mom doing so well. Yes, she has the time and yes she has the money, but I get so very sick of the excuses as to why not to work out at all.

This is what she does. She devotes her time and a good deal of money to training and working on herself--she gave up many speaking engagements at 25k a piece just to train for the trials. If this is all we did; had trainers and massages and stretches, I would think we would be faster.

When and if she tests positive, everyone can come back and say I told you so. In the meantime, let's give the lady a break and see what she does and most of all, how about we support her until we have a valid reason not to do so.

Just my 2 cents.

SwimStud
August 5th, 2008, 01:58 PM
Can we all just wait and see? I know that given what has happened in the past with doping, it is only natural to be a skeptical.

But, can we give the lady a break and see how the chips fall?

She is doing the 50 free--not the 500. She pulled out of the 100 because it was too much!!! They are holding her samples for a min of 5 years to continue to test it as methods develop--as per her request!!!!

I for one am THRILLED to see a middle aged mom doing so well. Yes, she has the time and yes she has the money, but I get so very sick of the excuses as to why not to work out at all.

This is what she does. She devotes her time and a good deal of money to training and working on herself--she gave up many speaking engagements at 25k a piece just to train for the trials. If this is all we did; had trainers and massages and stretches, I would think we would be faster.

When and if she tests positive, everyone can come back and say I told you so. In the meantime, let's give the lady a break and see what she does and most of all, how about we support her until we have a valid reason not to do so.

Just my 2 cents.

Right on!