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spudfin
August 12th, 2007, 11:25 AM
Greetings
Has anyone ever utilized lactate threshold testing models for monitoring their training? I have a copy of Jan Olbrechts book on the subject on the way from a contact in Belgium as the book is not available in the US right now. The finger stick monitors seem pretty straight forward to use as well. I am intrigued with the idea of using this tool over the winter just for the fun of it. Do any of you have any experience with this subject and/or advice. I am a master swimmer mostly prepping for OW events in the 1-3 mile distance. My son is a USA age group swimmer. We will both use the monitor if I can get him to tolerate the finger sticks.
Thanks
Spudfin

swimr4life
August 12th, 2007, 11:58 AM
Wow. I've always wanted to do that testing just to see if I am truly a sprint only swimmer or if I should train some middle distance. I did both when I was younger but have gravitated towards the sprints the older I get (and the less time/energy I have to put in the yardage!). Where do you get the monitor and how much does it cost?

Jeff Commings
August 12th, 2007, 12:18 PM
When I was on the Resident Team 10 years ago, we used it ALL the time. Sometimes we'd do test sets and get our fingers (or ears) pricked and get an instant readout of how tired we were.

For example, I would do a 2,000 LCM breast and find out how high my lactate levels were. We did this test every other month, I think. Every time, my lactate level decreased, which meant I was getting better at maintaining a good speed for that distance.

We also did it for sprinting. Used mostly to judge my rate of recovery. I'd get blood taken in the middle of the set, at the end and five minutes later to judge recovery. After a while, you don't feel the needle puncturing your skin.

I don't know how much they cost for "ordinary" people. I'm sure USA Swimming got them for a bargain. And I don't know what kind we used, but it looked like the diabetes monitors that you see on TV, only they measured lactate, not sugar.

SwimStud
August 12th, 2007, 12:27 PM
When I was on the Resident Team 10 years ago, we used it ALL the time. Sometimes we'd do test sets and get our fingers (or ears) pricked and get an instant readout of how tired we were.

For example, I would do a 2,000 LCM breast and find out how high my lactate levels were. We did this test every other month, I think. Every time, my lactate level decreased, which meant I was getting better at maintaining a good speed for that distance.

We also did it for sprinting. Used mostly to judge my rate of recovery. I'd get blood taken in the middle of the set, at the end and five minutes later to judge recovery. After a while, you don't feel the needle puncturing your skin.

I don't know how much they cost for "ordinary" people. I'm sure USA Swimming got them for a bargain. And I don't know what kind we used, but it looked like the diabetes monitors that you see on TV, only they measured lactate, not sugar.

Jeff did you mean 2000 or 200. I mean, just curious, I can do a mile of "old style" breast.

I tried to do a 50 fly after 800FR and 5x 100 BR and I died...totally. First time ever I failed to get to the wall (I'm no flyer). I guess I hit the muscle groups a lot, but I definitely just ran out of power.

I'd be curious to test myself.

geochuck
August 12th, 2007, 02:12 PM
My brother Thurlow used to check his swimmers by taking blood samples. He had several coaches who would send him the readings and he would send back info to the coaches.

I don't think I need that, I can physically tell when I have a build up.

Here is a little article about it http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/lactatethreshold.html

spudfin
August 12th, 2007, 05:18 PM
Beth
Here is the link for the monitors. http://www.lactate.com/index.html

You also need to factor in the cost of strips and control reagents. It is not cheap but if you want a coach to do it at a facility in this area it starts at $200.00 a test and one test is sort of useless in a training year. In that context the cost of a strip and reagents and the initial price of the monitor is reasonable.

There is a good deal of info to read on the site as well.
Another question I have is what do you do with the data in terms of planning and modifying workouts to meet your goals. I guess Olbrecht addresses that in his book at length. Can't wait to get my hands on a copy. My interest in all of this is mostly academic as I am not talented in the pool just like the science of it all. Yes I have been accused of always requiring a learning curve in my life. True!

Spudfin

spudfin
August 12th, 2007, 05:31 PM
George
Thanks for the link to the article. It was very interesting. In my readings it is interesting to note that blood lactate production is very different across the board for different athletes. I have played with heart rates and RPE as well and was shocked to learn that my HR was way higher than my RPE would suggest in the beginning and now my RPE is way higher than my actual heart rates. Benefits of training!!! I am interested to know the lactate levels versus HR versus RPE and how my training regimen can alter the blood lactate levels. At the end of the day if I change the way I train in reference to blood lactate can I swim farther faster with less pain. And on and on my brain goes. Thanks for the article.
Spudfin

geochuck
August 12th, 2007, 06:07 PM
There are many ways to train, we have max V02 not to be done more than twice a week. Where people go wrong is that it they consider that Max V02 is to swim at lactate threshold. Lactate threshold should only be done once a month if ever.

Max Vo2 is done at a lower HR than lactate threshold swimming. I will have to go into my wife's computer as mine does not have Quattro Pro I need it to read my brother's program. I will get the standards and post the differences later her computer is in for repairs.

I will have it back in a few days.

It needs your resting heart rate, age, male or female, it gives you the work outs for all four types of training. Plus lactate threshold swimming. Females have to do more then the men to get results. The program also requires the race you want to compete in. It handles all of the strokes. My brother took the east german scientific reports and it does everthing automatically, he used to sell the program to several coaches.

I am trying to put it on my nonprofit web site but I am not the computer expert I thought I was.

spudfin
August 12th, 2007, 07:39 PM
George
I would really appreciate that sort of data. Hope you get the computer fixed.
Many Thanks in advance!
Spudfin

geochuck
August 12th, 2007, 08:23 PM
Just put the program into my computer.

I am 74
Resting heart rate 60
Aerobic min heart rate 111.6
Aerobic max 128.8
Aenerobic Threshold min 128.8
AenerobicThreshold max 137.4
Max Vo2 min 137.4
Max V02 max 141.7
Lactic Threshold 142.56

geochuck
August 12th, 2007, 08:42 PM
Lac/Acid Tolerance
Duration of reps, 30-60 sec 2-2.5 min,
# of reps 4-6, 8 max.
rest interval 5 min to 30 min.
Work to rest ratio 1:2 or 1. (1-7)
Lac/acid 12-18, 20 max
Heart rate near max. early season 85% later season 95%

I will ad the rest later.



Sorry this is going to have to be put on the website for you to completely understand it.

geochuck
August 12th, 2007, 09:03 PM
If you have a goal to swim 50 yards or 50 meters in 22 seconds.

Lac Tolerance 10 X 50 at 23.98 sec start a 50 every 1 min.

Max Vo2 15 X 50 at 25.1 sec start a 50 every 44 sec

Aenerobic Threshold 30 X 50 at 27.7 sec start a 50 every 35 sec.

spudfin
August 13th, 2007, 08:31 AM
George
Thanks for the numbers. How are they derived? Like most heart rate and RPE models it seems there is wide variation for the targets among athletes . Hence my interest in blood lactate levels. It takes out all the subjectivity of RPE and the inherent variables in HR based workouts. The other thing about lactate testing is that it supposedly identifies each persons efficiencies and lack thereof in terms of the different metabolic systems. One of the things I am interested to learn is what to do with my workouts once I get some data. Keep the info coming it is very interesting.
Many Thanks
Spudfn

geochuck
August 13th, 2007, 11:11 AM
My brother Thurlow (he is 76 and not well) developed this computer program. I put the numbers in it spits it out. He gave me the program it comes in 5 floppy discs. I have put it onto a CD. He is the one who took the blood samples, he said he was able to read these and tell if the person training was just putting in time or giving it a good try.

All I do is add a name, age and resting heart rate. The blood stuff I do not know about just what the program says, but it is very accurate and gives variables.

Being a sprinter I only do my Max Vo2 workouts up to 75 meters.

The program will spit the workouts for any distance any stroke.

The workouts come out telling you what heart rate you should have while doing them. You have to tell the program what time you want to swim eg 22 sec 50 or 5 min 400m.

Thurlow is the guy who went to the swimming hall of fame pool with his team and had his kids do 100 X 100.

knelson
August 13th, 2007, 12:27 PM
We used to do lactate testing in college. It was sort of a big production at the time. We'd do it a couple times a season and they'd bring in an entire staff of people to take blood samples. We didn't get the results back for quite a while. If the process is such that it can be done quickly and relatively cheaply I think it would be worth doing.

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 17th, 2007, 05:18 PM
I have a natural low lactate threshold. To get fromt he poo to the lockerroom where I swim during the summer, I have to walk up a hill. It about kills me. I stagger up the hill. I look like I'm drunk. When I get cramps during a workout, they don't really bother me. Right now my calves are doing spams.

fastjack
August 17th, 2007, 05:23 PM
I have a natural low lactate threshold. To get fromt he poo to the lockerroom where I swim during the summer, I have to walk up a hill. It about kills me. I stagger up the hill. I look like I'm drunk. When I get cramps during a workout, they don't really bother me. Right now my calves are doing spams.
Our poo room is in the locker room near the showers.:lolup::lolup::lolup::thhbbb::thhbbb:

Kevin in MD
August 21st, 2007, 01:18 PM
There are many ways to train, we have max V02 not to be done more than twice a week. Where people go wrong is that it they consider that Max V02 is to swim at lactate threshold. Lactate threshold should only be done once a month if ever.

Max Vo2 is done at a lower HR than lactate threshold swimming. I will have to go into my wife's computer as mine does not have Quattro Pro I need it to read my brother's program. I will get the standards and post the differences later her computer is in for repairs.



George, what you are calling lactate threshold training is what most people call lactate tolerance training and is the fastest effort your brother's progrma lays out.

By contrast what most people call lactate threshold training is what you, or your brother Thurlow call anaerobic threshold training. This lactate threshold training is aimed at increasing the speed you can hold without having lactate accumulate in the blood. It's the highest steady state you can theoretically maintain.

Lactate tolerance training is aimed at your ability to keep swimming when it hurts, BAD.

Although it is not a definite line where you cross form one adaptation to the other, it's all a sliding scale.

geochuck
August 21st, 2007, 01:38 PM
If you have a goal to swim 50 yards or 50 meters in 22 seconds.

Lac Tolerance 10 X 50 at 23.98 sec start a 50 every 1 min.

Max Vo2 15 X 50 at 25.1 sec start a 50 every 44 sec

Aenerobic Threshold 30 X 50 at 27.7 sec start a 50 every 35 sec.

Lac Tolerence should read Lac Threshold my mistake.

This may help http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/anaerobic.threshold.html

scwids
August 21st, 2007, 02:23 PM
Our poo room is in the locker room near the showers.:lolup::lolup::lolup::thhbbb::thhbbb:


I am laughing my a** off right now! :rofl:

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geochuck
August 21st, 2007, 02:27 PM
Fastjack is a really fast swimmer and a comedian too.

Bobby
August 23rd, 2007, 02:42 PM
Checkout this link for some good info on lactate and some of the myth http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/lactic-acid.html