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david.margrave
August 19th, 2007, 01:35 PM
I went to an underwater video clinic on 8/5/07. Filming credit goes to Emerald City Multisport which put on the clinic at Samena Pool in Bellevue, WA. They did me a favor and recorded both free and fly instead of just free.

I've uploaded some excerpts to google video, and I'm interested in any critiques. One thing they said is I seem to be creating a lot of bubbles on entry on free.

free, side view, underwater
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4087705988698948046

free, front view, underwater
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2364099395360972450

free, surface view
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6876055213646665120

fly, side view, underwater
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5366279165483467214

fly, front view, underwater
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5912885406329695859

fly, surface view
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2538677253658141622

Thanks,

Dave

Shaman
August 19th, 2007, 03:29 PM
I'd straighten you're arms out on your butterfly recovery.

knelson
August 19th, 2007, 09:00 PM
In both free and fly your legs are pretty much just along for the ride. Look especially at the free side view. You need to get those hips up. If I were you I'd work on trying to do something other than a two-beat kick. I think your pull looks pretty solid.

tjburk
August 19th, 2007, 09:11 PM
Dave, I was going to ask if you've had back problems? Back seems really kind of stiff thus making your hips drop and your feet. Like Kirk said, you're hips and feet seem to be really low in the water. Head down a little more can help with this as well.

david.margrave
August 19th, 2007, 11:29 PM
Kirk, I've always had a pretty lazy kick, probably because kick sets were socializing time on my team as a kid, and swam distance events where I could get away with it. i see what you mean, that I should get my legs up to reduce drag. I've tried a 6-beat kick but can't seem to maintain the rhythm, I'll miss a beat or get out of phase which interferes with my stroke. I just need to practice I guess.

Tracy, i do kind of arch my back when swimming, that's probably a bad habit. No real back problems other than being prone to pulling a muscle when I'm out of shape, which has not been a problem since I started swimming again!

Thanks for checking it out and providing advice.

Dave

smontanaro
August 20th, 2007, 06:27 AM
i do kind of arch my back when swimming

Maybe try a more neutral head position. Look straight down at the bottom of the pool instead of always peeking for the wall. That might help straight out your back a bit and also raise your hips and feet a bit. I think the TI folks refer to the sensation as "swimming downhill".

Skip Montanaro

geochuck
August 20th, 2007, 09:32 AM
I am just going to comment on the hand entry on your free. I dont like the elbows and hands making a splash on entry. It must even be more when you are going hard. There are other things also.

geochuck
August 20th, 2007, 09:35 AM
I watched Thorpe swimming no TI stuff there.

Maybe try a more neutral head position. Look straight down at the bottom of the pool instead of always peeking for the wall. That might help straight out your back a bit and also raise your hips and feet a bit. I think the TI folks refer to the sensation as "swimming downhill".

Skip Montanaro

david.margrave
August 20th, 2007, 10:38 AM
George: one thing the clinic coaches suggested was more of an elbow-high entry. I tried it a bit today and it does seem to help. Before, my whole arm was pretty close to straight when it entered.

Another thing I tried which seems to help my efforts to get a 6-beat kick down is to use hand paddles. They slow my stroke down enough that I can get the rhythm of a 6-beat kick going. Hopefully I can get it drilled in and then maintain it without paddles. I sure feel a lot more tired with the faster kick.

Dobbie
August 20th, 2007, 10:40 AM
Your catch and pull is too shallow...(your catch is too early and too shallow)

To pull deeper you will need to rotate your shoulders more and get a more effective catch at the start of each stroke..

If you implement this properly your stroke rate should slow down for a while and you'll tire more quickly...the rate will build again as your strength grows to adapt to the more effective catch and pull.

I'd use the paddles but don't place eccess strain during the catch...make the catch firm and effective but place your strength at the middle and back end of the stroke....

geochuck
August 20th, 2007, 11:06 AM
Yes elbow higher, more body roll. I am in Whistler BC for a few days site for the 2010 Winter Games. What a beautiful place this is when I get home I will put your swims into Dart Swim and send you an analysis.of your swimming. The low elbow sometimes makes for a dropped elbow from the catch on, that can be a problem.
George: one thing the clinic coaches suggested was more of an elbow-high entry. I tried it a bit today and it does seem to help. Before, my whole arm was pretty close to straight when it entered.

Another thing I tried which seems to help my efforts to get a 6-beat kick down is to use hand paddles. They slow my stroke down enough that I can get the rhythm of a 6-beat kick going. Hopefully I can get it drilled in and then maintain it without paddles. I sure feel a lot more tired with the faster kick.

geochuck
August 20th, 2007, 01:26 PM
I just looked at your stroke again. It looks like you are actually droping your elbow during the catch phase. Elbow preceeds the hand and forearm not good.

Slowswim
August 20th, 2007, 04:00 PM
I just looked at your stroke again. It looks like you are actually droping your elbow during the catch phase. Elbow preceeds the hand and forearm not good.

One of my old coaches told me I do this. I'm guessing from the video that you mean the hand and elbow touch the water at the same time.

If I'm right, why is this an issue and how do you fix it?:dunno:
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JennyS
August 20th, 2007, 04:43 PM
When your hands enter the water on butterfly it looks like they are sliding out to the sides before catching the water. It appears that you are doing an exaggerated "keyhole" shape when you pull. Start your pull where your hands enter, with your arms at shoulder width, never letting them get farther apart than that. Good luck!

geochuck
August 20th, 2007, 04:44 PM
If you look closely you wiil see the elbow tends to lead the fore arm and hand. The hands and fore arms are slipping through the water and not holding onto the (imaginary wall) water.

Slowswim
August 20th, 2007, 04:51 PM
If you look closely you wiil see the elbow tends to lead the fore arm and hand. The hands and fore arms are slipping through the water and not holding onto the (imaginary wall) water.

OK, I see that. Its causing the same splash by his face that I get. When swimming fast(-ish), I know I drop my elbow because I get a face full of water and no air. This is the first time I've been able to see what I'm doing.

Now what's with the imaginary wall?

Shaman
August 20th, 2007, 06:17 PM
I think you're talking about a high elbow recovery, not the high elbow catch. The catch is under the water. Here's a couple articles you might look it.

http://www.limmatsharks.com/ElbowsHigh/

http://www.h2oustonswims.org/articles/dreaded_dropped_elbow.html

geochuck
August 20th, 2007, 07:41 PM
Underwater you are still droping the elbow and that causes you to slip through the water. The imaginary wall is not really a wall. You are pressing on a wall of water.

Shaman that is underwater stuff he needed to see.

May I add this the dropped elbow starts from the recovery, continues to the entry and still continues all the way thru the catch.

david.margrave
August 21st, 2007, 01:20 AM
Thanks everyone. This is a lot of information to absorb at one time, and I plan to prioritize it in this order

1) head/body position
2) kick (related to 1.)
3) arms (entry, catch, stroke).

Thanks,
Dave

waves101
August 21st, 2007, 09:21 AM
Dave -
You've received a lot of good critiques here. I suggest you pick one thing to work on at a time. Maybe one per day. The thing I noticed is right at the end of your freestyle underwater video. Maybe you weren't concentrating on the turn... but if you look at your arms, you are just letting them flop around. You should flip the hands over, using them as a big catch, and throw them up and over your head. This helps get the hips over faster. It, too, will feel weird at first but within a few weeks you say, "how did I ever do a turn the other way?"

Hoosier
August 21st, 2007, 12:04 PM
Wow this is interesting! I am two years into my swimming career...47 years old. One question.....How do you keep track of all this? Just thinking about the catch and keeping your elbow behind your hand....why thats more than I can absorb! cant tell you right now if I do it right or not...will have to check it out. Great Thread!

Kevin in MD
August 21st, 2007, 01:24 PM
Head down a little more can help with this as well.


Your head position and kick in freestyle don't match.

Your head is high and lots of it sticks out of the water. If you want to stay that way in terms of your head, you'll need to kick more to stay horizontal instead of dragging yourlegs.

If you don't want to kick any more strongly, then you'll need to keep your head low in the water both when you swim and when you breathe.

Dennis Tesch
August 21st, 2007, 01:37 PM
The only tips I would give would be to make a bigger effort in keeping your elbows higher when you catch and don't lose your shoulder lever when you press back. Your really get into your elbow and bicep when you start push through instead of keeping all your strength in your shoulder, chest, and back.

geochuck
August 21st, 2007, 01:43 PM
If you finish properly your legs will raise and your head position will change.

david.margrave
August 23rd, 2007, 02:35 AM
The only tips I would give would be to make a bigger effort in keeping your elbows higher when you catch and don't lose your shoulder lever when you press back. Your really get into your elbow and bicep when you start push through instead of keeping all your strength in your shoulder, chest, and back.

Good point, I realize now that I'm still following a technique that was taught to me in the early 80s. They didn't emphasize elbow position, but mainly the path your hand should trace through the water, sort of a keyhole shape (like someone else described my butterfly). I'm starting to get the hang of a 6-beat kick which was first on my list of things to try, so I'll give this a shot. I'm just a little wary of making big changes to my stroke because of all the shoulder injury stories I hear. I'll take it gradually.

geochuck
August 23rd, 2007, 09:53 AM
The biggest problem is to try and do every thing at once. Get the elbows high and the hand close to the water, and don't slap the hand on the water as the hand enters.

Warren
August 23rd, 2007, 10:23 AM
1. no catch, your arm is slipping through the water. Learn to swim with your forarms by useing a deep catch.
2. Your arms cross to far over underwater. Try to pull straighter.
3. Head position, put your head down a little bit more
4. shorten your kick and make it more frequet.

Warren
August 23rd, 2007, 10:26 AM
The biggest problem is to try and do every thing at once. Get the elbows high and the hand close to the water, and don't slap the hand on the water as the hand enters.

Don't slap the water but you don't want to gently place your hand in the water either.