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SwimStud
August 23rd, 2007, 10:00 AM
50 BR
39.92

100BR
45.22 1:33.22 (48.00)

200 BR
45.46 1:37.60 (52.14)
2:32.09 (54.49) 3:28.12 (56.03)

Hi All
Here are my LCM time from zones.
My 50 was a PB.
The 100 was first recorded time LCM, and the 200 was 7 secs faster than my last attempt.
Obvioulsy tecnique is very important, but looking at my drop off on the 200, what do you think is going on. I was told my stroke looked good on the 200.
Is my conditioning bad? Should I practice more broken 2's 3x50 mod 1x AFASP a few times thru etc? I did this for SCY Zones and went from 3:07 in January to a 2:56 by April--not a bad return IMHO.
Am I just a sprinter (albeit not that a fast of a sprinter) and will I not have much more joy in reducing my longer swim times?
I only get 3x a week in the pool and someone told me swimming 5-6 times would get my times down...I can't devote that much time.
Lastly I just bought paddles to find the slipping point in my BR pull and was happy to find only my left hand slipped a little on the insweep and only at a high pace--but not everytime.
I'm still working on not "blocking out" in the water by recovering my legs before my arms have shot into streamline. Anyone have drills for this? Peter C said to work on building up speed which I am doing.
Just looking for more input and ideas. I know LCM is a hard beast compared to SCY so swimming a PB on the 50 is encouraging.

Thanks

Rich

knelson
August 23rd, 2007, 10:26 AM
I only get 3x a week in the pool and someone told me swimming 5-6 times would get my times down...I can't devote that much time.

I don't think three times a week is enough. Try to at least get in four times. Right now there are more days you don't swim than you do.

Another thing of paramount importance for a 200 breast is distance per stroke. Really try to get a good glide. Always count your strokes and try to maintain a consistent count throughout your swims in practice. Also strive to continuously reduce this count.

SwimStud
August 23rd, 2007, 10:37 AM
I don't think three times a week is enough. Try to at least get in four times. Right now there are more days you don't swim than you do.

Another thing of paramount importance for a 200 breast is distance per stroke. Really try to get a good glide. Always count your strokes and try to maintain a consistent count throughout your swims in practice. Also strive to continuously reduce this count.

Kirk...so you're saying at this amount of swimming. I'm going to struggle to radically improve my longer swims...50's probably still can go down. I didn't glide in my 100 but I am told I did look wavey on my 200.

It's just tough, home improvement work, coaching soccer, attending soccer, another night out a week is hard to get.

TRYM_Swimmer
August 23rd, 2007, 10:56 AM
Part of the secret to a 200, especially breast, is how you build the race. How did you feel throughout? Were you putting in more effort at the end than the beginning? Another thing is to be as relaxed as possible during the first 100, while maintaining a decent stroke and glide, then gradually building the second hundred until you're almost sprinting the last 50. This should result in the last three 50s being close in time, not increasing as yours were.

Don't feel discouraged. Just swim as much as you can and do some dryland on the days you can't get to the pool, especially thigh and tricep stuff. Just be proud that you are a part of the great 200 LCM Breast fraternity. The Fearless!!!!!!!

SwimStud
August 23rd, 2007, 11:01 AM
Part of the secret to a 200, especially breast, is how you build the race. How did you feel throughout? Were you putting in more effort at the end than the beginning? Another thing is to be as relaxed as possible during the first 100, while maintaining a decent stroke and glide, then gradually building the second hundred until you're almost sprinting the last 50. This should result in the last three 50s being close in time, not increasing as yours were.

Don't feel discouraged. Just swim as much as you can and do some dryland on the days you can't get to the pool, especially thigh and tricep stuff. Just be proud that you are a part of the great 200 LCM Breast fraternity. The Fearless!!!!!!!
I felt I'd swam hard and did indeed just wave and glide the first 100...build the third and blitzed the final 50. I was shaking and hurting when I got out...which is how it is meant to feel I hadn't felt like that since January...
I didn't do an awful lot of stork though due to recovering from a sore knee...it could be a big factor in the time.

Allen Stark
August 23rd, 2007, 11:08 AM
Great 50:cheerleader:.It's hard to tell from your splits.but I think you went out too slow in the 100 and too fast in the 200.I think you should be able to go out in the 100 within 3 sec. of your 50,so under 43. In the 200 I like to go out about as fast as the 2nd 50 of my 100,in your case 48. You went out almost as fast as your 100.
I read a study on exercise in the late 70s and the difference between 3 and 4 times a week is huge.Can you do at least a non pool workout an additional time/wk.
A good drill for the 200 is swim a 50 with a 1 count after the kick,then a 50 with a 2 count,then a 50 with a 3 count. If you can get the 3 count nearly as fast as the 1 count it will really help your 200. The key in the 200 LCM is long smooth strokes.My stroke count at NATS was 15,18,19,22:banana:I probably went out a little slowly and 16,19,20,21 would have been better,but you get the idea.

SwimStud
August 23rd, 2007, 11:17 AM
Thanks Allen! I like the sound of that kick-delay drill allen. I feel great and fast when I do 3-kick n breathe...so i'll add that in. I'm not discouraged...I know it's my first LCM season..and it's a huge jump. Looking forward to seeing how this will feed into my SCY. My 100 I am told I didn't glide...so maybe I need to not think stroke speed but timing, which will add speed over the 50.

scyfreestyler
August 23rd, 2007, 11:52 AM
How about just more yardage or more race pace work on the three days that you do swim (I can relate to your problem...in your shoes right now)? Try adding an extra 1000 yards per swim workout as well as a 200 at race pace once or twice a week. Also, are you swimming distances that are longer than your race in sets? For instance, in preparation for a 200 LCM BR, you might swim 3-250's as opposed to 200's. Acclimate your body to a little more abuse. I keep telling myself that more pain in practice will lead to greater results from the pain I feel when I race. I'll find out next month.

gull
August 23rd, 2007, 12:25 PM
It's just tough, home improvement work, coaching soccer, attending soccer, another night out a week is hard to get.

Which is why I swim at 5:30 am. Of course my wife makes comments about Geritol when I go to bed at 10 pm.

Seriously, I agree that three days isn't enough if you want to improve your 200.

scyfreestyler
August 23rd, 2007, 12:45 PM
Seriously, I agree that three days isn't enough if you want to improve your 200.


I am not so sure about that gull. I think that a point can be reached where somebody needs more than three days a week to make any further improvement but I don't think Stud is there yet (No offense intended here).

I was shaking and hurting when I got out...

I suspect that if you feel a little bit like this upon leaving the pool three times a week, you are going to improve. I think this is a simple case of atrophy and hypertrophy, no?

SwimStud
August 23rd, 2007, 12:51 PM
I am not so sure about that gull. I think that a point can be reached where somebody needs more than three days a week to make any further improvement but I don't think Stud is there yet (No offense intended here).

I was shaking and hurting when I got out...

I suspect that if you feel a little bit like this upon leaving the pool three times a week, you are going to improve. I think this is a simple case of atrophy and hypertrophy, no?

That is after a 200 where I "thought" I was sprinting at the end lol...I feel good after my workouts...

scyfreestyler
August 23rd, 2007, 12:53 PM
That is after a 200 where I "thought" I was sprinting at the end lol...I feel good after my workouts...


I know what you mean...I felt the same way after a poorly split 200 LC Free. What I am saying is that feeling some pain like that in practice more routinely will surely improve your performance. Having a day or two in between swims will be a God send, allowing your body to rebuild after being torn down.

SwimStud
August 23rd, 2007, 12:56 PM
I know what you mean...I felt the same way after a poorly split 200 LC Free. What I am saying is that feeling some pain like that in practice more routinely will surely improve your performance. Having a day or two in between swims will be a God send, allowing your body to rebuild after being torn down.

500 FR
10x100 on 2:00 made the intervals.
300 MF SDK 2-3 breaths per 50 (rest)
50 BR/ 50 Swim on back with cramp.
200 BR
4 x 50 BR
2x 500 FR :30 R 200 Drills EZ to cool

Average sample workout. Admittedly not much BR work but I've been returning from the knee issue so going a bit gently.

scyfreestyler
August 23rd, 2007, 01:06 PM
Try to whittle down the 10 x 100 interval. When I was working on getting my 10 x 100 interval down I dropped to 6 x 100 on a shorter interval and added the repeats back in as I deemed appropriate.

SwimStud
August 23rd, 2007, 01:09 PM
Try to whittle down the 10 x 100 interval. When I was working on getting my 10 x 100 interval down I dropped to 6 x 100 on a shorter interval and added the repeats back in as I deemed appropriate.
I just hacked it down from 2:15...so it's been tough. It paid off on my 100FR time at Zones. I might try the reduce reps thing too.

gull
August 23rd, 2007, 01:33 PM
I think that a point can be reached where somebody needs more than three days a week to make any further improvement but I don't think Stud is there yet

I found that my 50 and 100 times remained the same when I went to 6 days/week (from 3-4), but at distances of 200 and up my times improved significantly. Not only will your conditioning improve, but I think you develop a better feel for the water training more days/week.

SwimStud
August 23rd, 2007, 01:35 PM
I found that my 50 and 100 times remained the same when I went to 6 days/week (from 3-4), but at distances of 200 and up my times improved significantly. Not only will your conditioning improve, but I think you develop a better feel for the water training more days/week.
Gull, what pool time/yardage are you doing?

gull
August 23rd, 2007, 01:42 PM
Gull, what pool time/yardage are you doing?

Currently about an hour to an hour and a quarter, 3500 yards. I would like to get this back up to 4000, where I was in the spring.

Our main sets can be pretty intense, depending on who shows up.

ande
August 23rd, 2007, 01:42 PM
congrats on your improvements

on paper
you should be able to swim your ____ in ____

100 42.0 46.0 for a 1:28

200 1:30 1:36 for a 3:06

to swim breast faster you need to focus on
1) technique
perfect your kick, pull, streamline glide and timing
(read wayne's stuff on breastroker, I have a few things on swim faster faster )
2) speed, do some very fast breast sprints in practice
3) strength (lift weights and get stronger) and
4) conditioning (swimming as much as you can each week)

good luck

ande




50 BR
39.92

100 BR
45.22 1:33.22 (48.00)

200 BR
45.46 1:37.60 (52.14) 2:32.09 (54.49) 3:28.12 (56.03)

Hi All
Here are my LCM time from zones.
My 50 was a PB.
The 100 was first recorded time LCM, and the 200 was 7 secs faster than my last attempt.
Obvioulsy tecnique is very important, but looking at my drop off on the 200, what do you think is going on. I was told my stroke looked good on the 200.
Is my conditioning bad? Should I practice more broken 2's 3x50 mod 1x AFASP a few times thru etc? I did this for SCY Zones and went from 3:07 in January to a 2:56 by April--not a bad return IMHO.
Am I just a sprinter (albeit not that a fast of a sprinter) and will I not have much more joy in reducing my longer swim times?
I only get 3x a week in the pool and someone told me swimming 5-6 times would get my times down...I can't devote that much time.
Lastly I just bought paddles to find the slipping point in my BR pull and was happy to find only my left hand slipped a little on the insweep and only at a high pace--but not everytime.
I'm still working on not "blocking out" in the water by recovering my legs before my arms have shot into streamline. Anyone have drills for this? Peter C said to work on building up speed which I am doing.
Just looking for more input and ideas. I know LCM is a hard beast compared to SCY so swimming a PB on the 50 is encouraging.

Thanks

Rich

SwimStud
August 23rd, 2007, 01:48 PM
congrats on your improvements

on paper
you should be able to swim your ____ in ____

100 42.0 46.0 for a 1:28

200 1:30 1:36 for a 3:06

to swim breast faster you need to focus on
1) technique
perfect your kick, pull, streamline glide and timing
(read wayne's stuff on breastroker, I have a few things on swim faster faster )
2) speed, do some very fast breast sprints in practice
3) strength (lift weights and get stronger) and
4) conditioning (swimming as much as you can each week)

good luck

ande
Thanks Ande...love that estimator. I guess my 100BR might have been better but I'd just done the PB in 100FR ..I think I had enough time to recover but who knows for sure. I hav Wayne's site. I have to get back into that again now my knee is right.

quicksilver
August 23rd, 2007, 02:03 PM
Over the years I've devised a quirky prediction formula (for yards).
It seems to work fairly accurately with most people regardless of what stroke they are swimming.

The 100 time gauge is usually: Best 50 time (x2) plus three to four seconds maximum.
This doesn't hold true for everyone, but it is fairly accurate.

The 200 time is harder to gauge because this distance is the dividing line between sprinters and distance people.
But typically it can be: Best 100 time plus four seconds (x2).






~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SS...if you want to see improvements in the 100 and 200...
The main set should last somewhere around 2,000 yards.

1,000 yards of steady pace work is a great start...but the 200 distance (in any stroke) is torturous sprint.
Doing it well requires engine building.

Jeff Commings
August 23rd, 2007, 02:13 PM
The best analysis about the 200 breast is: DON'T DO IT!

But if you really feel like you can't stay away from that ghastly event, you definitely need to improve your conditioning by training more. You can't hide behind anything on a 200 breast. You can barely use talent for a 100 breast, especially long course.

Do a great deal of race pace work. Your body needs to get adjusted to the splits you want to do.

SwimStud
August 23rd, 2007, 02:19 PM
The best analysis about the 200 breast is: DON'T DO IT!



Well I hear you there but I do it partly because it's a tough event. I'd like to see my times improve. My 100 performance is lost on me.

To both Jeff and Quicksilver: The bowman modified set seemed to be working for SCY is this good set for the conditioning purposes. Also can I translate training for 200 FR over in terms of conditioning?

quicksilver
August 23rd, 2007, 02:30 PM
Also can I translate training for 200 FR over in terms of conditioning?

Unless you do some hypoxic training sets...the 200 free and 200 breast are completely different animals.
There's the element of underwater pullouts on each turn that sucks the life force out of most people.

Maybe get a pull buoy and breath 3,5,7,9 for a 200 free set.

5 x 200 on a cushy interval...you'll need it:
1st 50 breathe every 3
2nd 50 ...every 5
3rd 50 ...every 7
4th 50...every 9...good luck.

SwimStud
August 23rd, 2007, 02:34 PM
Unless you do some hypoxic training sets...the 200 free and 200 breast are completely different animals.
There's the element of underwater pullouts on each turn that sucks the life force out of most people.

Maybe get a pull buoy and breath 3,5,7,9 for a 200 free set.

5 x 200 on a cushy interval...you'll need it:
1st 50 breathe every 3
2nd 50 ...every 5
3rd 50 ...every 7
4th 50...every 9...good luck.

That reminds me I was doing 200FR with BR turns and pullouts...it hits hard!

Lots of great advice here though!!

knelson
August 23rd, 2007, 03:09 PM
Maybe get a pull buoy and breath 3,5,7,9 for a 200 free set.

Good old lung buster pulls!

ande
August 23rd, 2007, 03:45 PM
great advice Jeff,

I think you could swim a very fast 200, especially short course.
The single dolphin kick on the underwater pullout makes swimmers stay under a little longer, which means longer breath holding off each wall

Swimmers need to be real relaxed and in control on that first 100
so they can swim a strong 2nd 100,

I think Hansen split his 200 1:01 1:07 (a 5 or 6 second fade)
Shanteau split it 1:02.88 1:07.77 (4.89 diff)
Shanteau only went 1:01.50 in the 100
so his 400 IM & 200 IM training really help his 200 breast.

I swam the 200 breast once in college
I think I went 2:11 split it 1:00 1:11 which is not the way to do it

Ande


The best analysis about the 200 breast is: DON'T DO IT!

But if you really feel like you can't stay away from that ghastly event, you definitely need to improve your conditioning by training more. You can't hide behind anything on a 200 breast. You can barely use talent for a 100 breast, especially long course.

Do a great deal of race pace work. Your body needs to get adjusted to the splits you want to do.