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funkyfish
August 29th, 2007, 03:14 PM
Recently I've forced myself to do flip turns in practice, hoping I'll get better/faster at them. My question is about hand position. Many years ago I'd use my hands to scull and help flip me over. Now, however, after some experimentation, I'm just using my torso and a dolphin kick to turn myself over. My hands stay in front of me the whole time as far as I can tell. This seems to put them in a streamlined position faster so I'm ready to push off faster. Back to the question part: Is/does this sound right? It feels faster, but I don't know if I'm missing something. Any help/suggestions is/are appreciated. Thanks.:wiggle:

smontanaro
August 29th, 2007, 03:32 PM
Yes, that's right. You can still push with your hands, just not as much.

Skip Montanaro

knelson
August 29th, 2007, 04:32 PM
Your hands should be down at your hips when you initialize the flip. Ideally they really shouldn't move much from that position so that when you complete the flip they are out in front of your shoulders ready to be in a tight streamlined position when your feet push off the wall.

scyfreestyler
August 29th, 2007, 05:15 PM
Your hands should be down at your hips when you initialize the flip. Ideally they really shouldn't move much from that position so that when you complete the flip they are out in front of your shoulders ready to be in a tight streamlined position when your feet push off the wall.

I second that and add that I also use a bit of a dolphin kick to initiate the turn.

Slowswim
August 30th, 2007, 08:56 AM
After the push from the wall in the Free, is it best to flutter kick or SDK or personal choice? If SDK, when do you transition to flutter. I like the SDK, but seem to lose a half stroke in transition.

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 30th, 2007, 09:02 AM
After the push from the wall in the Free, is it best to flutter kick or SDK or personal choice? If SDK, when do you transition to flutter. I like the SDK, but seem to lose a half stroke in transition.

You might be doing one too many.

Allen Stark
August 30th, 2007, 09:28 PM
Bill,SDK for most people,but if your flutter kick is faster do that. I'd say if you are doing SDK start to flutter about when you start your pull.If you are losing time you are going too far for the speed of your kick.Not everyone is faster kicking underwater than swimming on the surface.Find out what is fastest for YOU.

Blackbeard's Peg
August 30th, 2007, 10:38 PM
FF - I've been taught more recently that the tumble should not be initiated by dolphin kick. The coaches have me coming into the wall in full stroke stride, and using my last stroke to initiate my turn. As I take that final pull, my head is already starting to look behind me - and all tumbling is coming from my core, putting all those situps to good use. I checked the video from my 500 at nationals, and the only dolphin kicks are SDK coming off the wall.

Now that is not to say the dolphin kick is incorrect. I think most of us learn that way - I know I did. Keep practicing your tumbling, and get your turns to where you can make the tumble initiation seamless and a continuation of your freestyle.

Blackbeard's Peg
August 30th, 2007, 10:45 PM
After the push from the wall in the Free, is it best to flutter kick or SDK or personal choice? If SDK, when do you transition to flutter. I like the SDK, but seem to lose a half stroke in transition.
Bill -
As Allen mentioned, personal choice. If you want to try out the SDK, you're going to need to trust in yourself AND the SDK to make the post-tumble SDK'ing a success. I know exactly what you mean about losing your momentum in the transition.
It takes a lot of practice to get that timing down. Work on it for every turn in practice. Work additional SDK into some of your sets - ie, when doing a boring free set, force yourself to do 6-8-10-12 kicks off the wall. Especially as you tire, you'll start to learn how improve your breakout (so you can get that breath!). My advice is when you switch to a free-kick, those kicks need to be as strong and keep you at the same speed or FASTER than what you were going with SDK.

Slowswim
August 31st, 2007, 09:06 AM
Bill -
Especially as you tire, you'll start to learn how improve your breakout (so you can get that breath!). My advice is when you switch to a free-kick, those kicks need to be as strong and keep you at the same speed or FASTER than what you were going with SDK.

Muppet:

Thanks, sound tough but fun. What is the breakout. I saw that in the USMS Swimmer in an article on evil stroking but it never actually said what a "breakout"s.:confused:
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imspoiled
August 31st, 2007, 12:58 PM
Muppet:

Thanks, sound tough but fun. What is the breakout. I saw that in the USMS Swimmer in an article on evil stroking but it never actually said what a "breakout"s.:confused:
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The breakout is your first stroke after a start or turn. When you "break" the surface of the water.

Slowswim
August 31st, 2007, 01:44 PM
The breakout is your first stroke after a start or turn. When you "break" the surface of the water.

That makes sense. I could figure out in the article why the swimmer had her arms by her side during the Breast Stroke. The streamline phase must be with hands down not leading.

Syd
September 3rd, 2007, 01:46 AM
I read somewhere (or was it Ande who gave me this advice - forgive me Ande if I am wrong:blush:) that you should be pulling that final stroke right into the turn as opposed to gliding in. I complete the stroke all the way - right to brushing the hand on the hip. This ensures momentum into the wall and will prevent you from turning 'short' and missing the wall entirely - something I am prone to do. Since I have taken this advice I have seen a significant improvement in the speed of my turn. I have never dolphin kicked into the wall. That would ruin my rhythm completely. Also I don't turn onto my stomach until I have completed the roll i.e. my head is facing the surface of the pool. This allows me to push off from a deeper position and ensures that I don't surface too quickly and, hence, am able to do more SDK's off the wall. However, I am not the quickest flip turner and still have a lot to learn. In fact, in the past, so poor was my flip turn that my time for 50m crawl SCM was slower than my time for 50 LCM!!

Syd

Blackbeard's Peg
September 3rd, 2007, 08:23 PM
I read somewhere (or was it Ande who gave me this advice - forgive me Ande if I am wrong:blush:) that you should be pulling that final stroke right into the turn as opposed to gliding in. I complete the stroke all the way - right to brushing the hand on the hip. This ensures momentum into the wall ...

That is correct, and what I had attempted to communicate on my first post (post #6) here - I think you said it better, Syd.

ande
September 4th, 2007, 11:56 AM
your hands should be at your side
as you flip you want to scoop them the opposite direction of your rotation
ending up with them near your head so you can push off streamlined

sprinters don't take a dolphin kick to set up their turns they just roll into them

the best thing you can do is go underwater and watch someone who has great turns and copy them

also have someone time you in and out of the flags
to see if you're improving your turns,

ande



Recently I've forced myself to do flip turns in practice, hoping I'll get better/faster at them. My question is about hand position. Many years ago I'd use my hands to scull and help flip me over. Now, however, after some experimentation, I'm just using my torso and a dolphin kick to turn myself over. My hands stay in front of me the whole time as far as I can tell. This seems to put them in a streamlined position faster so I'm ready to push off faster. Back to the question part: Is/does this sound right? It feels faster, but I don't know if I'm missing something. Any help/suggestions is/are appreciated. Thanks.:wiggle:

geochuck
September 4th, 2007, 12:39 PM
There is a video here of how to do a flip turn http://www.goswim.tv/drilloftheweek_comments.php?id=2232_0_20_0_C

Noodle flip http://www.goswim.tv/drilloftheweek_comments.php?id=4433_0_20_0_C#

Add to this the balanced push off notice the streamline http://www.goswim.tv/drilloftheweek_comments.php?id=4702_0_20_0_C#

Syd
September 4th, 2007, 08:18 PM
There is a video here of how to do a flip turn http://www.goswim.tv/drilloftheweek_comments.php?id=2232_0_20_0_C

Noodle flip http://www.goswim.tv/drilloftheweek_comments.php?id=4433_0_20_0_C#

Add to this the balanced push off notice the streamline http://www.goswim.tv/drilloftheweek_comments.php?id=4702_0_20_0_C#


Thanks for that link George.

Syd

Syd
September 5th, 2007, 09:09 AM
There is a video here of how to do a flip turn http://www.goswim.tv/drilloftheweek_comments.php?id=2232_0_20_0_C

Noodle flip http://www.goswim.tv/drilloftheweek_comments.php?id=4433_0_20_0_C#

Add to this the balanced push off notice the streamline http://www.goswim.tv/drilloftheweek_comments.php?id=4702_0_20_0_C#


Well, I can really reccommend that you check out the links George has provided esp. the first one. Some really solid advice there:

Now for the key aspect of this drill: TUCK the knees toward the chest. Get them as close as you can, and create the smallest possible circle with your body. Remember (and we canít stress this enough): The smaller you can make your body, the faster you spin. And the faster you spin, the sooner you're ready to come off the wall, and the more speed you carry off the wall.

In fact, I tried this out immediately in my practice this afternoon and it made a remarkable difference. I hadn't thought about tucking my knees up to my chest but you really do turn more quickly in a tight ball. Duh! In the past I was turning with my legs almost straight. With your knees under your chin and your legs like a coiled spring you get much more of a push off from the wall too. Double bonus. In fact, I was turning so quickly I was getting this lightheaded feeling but then I do get dizzy very quickly. The only downfall was that I missed the wall a couple of times. This is bound to happen when trying out a new technique and will sort itself out over time.

Thanks again for the link George.

Syd

geochuck
September 5th, 2007, 09:21 AM
Thanks again for the link George.

Syd

You are welcome Syd - there is always a video somewhere. It is a matter of finding them. Go swim, although too TI has a great assortment of videos. Here is their list http://www.goswim.tv/drilloftheweek_archives.php