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ensignada
September 13th, 2007, 12:25 AM
Hi there, new-ish swimmers!

My name is Barb and I was a lurker. Then I registered and lurked some more. I heard all sorts of terms (long-axis/short-axis, SDKs, slippage - to name a few) that the more seasoned swimmers were tossing around and had no clue what they referred to, much less meant. I was a little shy about asking for clarification on some basic issues within a thread where something was being discussed or debated.

I would like to create a space here for swimmers who are either new-ish to swimming, fitness swimming, or maybe competitive swimming to ask basic questions, the ones you're embarrassed to ask. If you don't want to ask them yourself, register and send me a private message, and I'll ask it for you.

I don't have the answers, but many of the posters here have been and are helpful and supportive of me and probably will be the same for you.

ensignada
September 13th, 2007, 12:31 AM
I'll go first.

I swam in my first race recently. When it was time for my heat to swim, I heard the whistle blow at least twice. The last time I think was to step onto the blocks. What did the other whistle mean?

(I pretty much did what everyone else in my heat was doing.)

Seagurl51
September 13th, 2007, 12:35 AM
I'll go first.

I swam in my first race recently. When it was time for my heat to swim, I heard the whistle blow at least twice. The last time I think was to step onto the blocks. What did the other whistle mean?

(I pretty much did what everyone else in my heat was doing.)

I had that same issue, luckily they explained it at the second meet I went too!

The first whistle is just basically a warning whistle to say get behind the blocks, like a "If you're not here, you're not swimming." And yea, the second is to actually get on the blocks.

FlyQueen
September 13th, 2007, 12:38 AM
Stand behind the blocks, mount the blocks, and then they'll give the instructions.

Syd
September 13th, 2007, 12:52 AM
Good thread Barb. When I joined, not so long ago, I had no idea what an SDK was!:blush: I am sure this thread is going to prove to be a valuable resource.

Syd

ensignada
September 13th, 2007, 09:24 AM
Thanks FQ and SG...

Glad you like the thread idea, Syd. Now that we know what SDK is, it should be simple to do it, right? :rofl:

geochuck
September 13th, 2007, 09:36 AM
You have to know your PDQs, VSSRs and PICs as well then many others.

Some of us know all of the termonology and can't swim very well.

The Fortress
September 13th, 2007, 09:41 AM
Now that we know what SDK is, it should be simple to do it, right? :rofl:

Can't SDK without a swim cap. I've found it's important to bring back ups to meets. ;) :doh: Barb's cap sure has some good mojo.

Best to bring extra caps, goggles, swim suits and contacts to all meets and practices. Then if you lose a contact when your goggles fall off on the start, you can still drive home.

ViveBene
September 13th, 2007, 10:54 AM
Superb thread idea; thanks to originator.

My dumb question of the day: Is there a difference between streamlined dolphin kick and "regular" dolphin kick?

Thanks,
VB

The Fortress
September 13th, 2007, 10:57 AM
Superb thread idea; thanks to originator.

My dumb question of the day: Is there a difference between streamlined dolphin kick and "regular" dolphin kick?

Thanks,
VB

Yes, somewhat. See page two of the "Getting into Fly" thread: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/10/AR2007091001174.html

SDKs take awhile to master. Keep practicing! Good luck! I love 'em.

ViveBene
September 13th, 2007, 11:09 AM
Thanks to Fortress!

VB

inklaire
September 13th, 2007, 04:06 PM
Yes, somewhat. See page two of the "Getting into Fly" thread: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/10/AR2007091001174.html

SDKs take awhile to master. Keep practicing! Good luck! I love 'em.

I just skimmed the Washington Post article, but I'm afraid I'm a bit lost ...

ensignada
September 13th, 2007, 04:38 PM
I just skimmed the Washington Post article, but I'm afraid I'm a bit lost ...

That's because the wrong link got pasted in - The Fortress is fixing it. Stay tuned!

(Although, we could use more respect from our kids. :p

The Fortress
September 13th, 2007, 04:44 PM
That's because the wrong link got pasted in - The Fortress is fixing it. Stay tuned!

(Although, we could use more respect from our kids. :p

Here it is. http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=8912 Sorry. Fry brain today.

inklaire
September 13th, 2007, 04:50 PM
Here it is. http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=8912 Sorry. Fry brain today.

Ahhh.... This makes a lot more sense. :laugh2: Thank you! And thanks for the other link, too.

poolraat
September 14th, 2007, 12:51 PM
I swam in my first race recently. When it was time for my heat to swim, I heard the whistle blow at least twice. The last time I think was to step onto the blocks. What did the other whistle mean?


Barb,
Here is the section from the officials' manual regarding starts and the whistle sequence and meaning. I've edited it, highlighted parts of it and added my own comments to (hopefully) clarify it:


At the commencement of each heat, the Referee shall (1) signal to the swimmers by a short series of whistles to remove all clothing except for swimwear (and stand ready behind the starting block), (2) followed by a long whistle indicating that they should take their positions on the starting platform.


Usually the referee will pause between these commands until all swimmers in the heat appear ready to step up onto the blocks, and in larger meets, the event and heat number will be announced during this pause.

...... In backstroke and medley relay events, at the referee's first long whistle the swimmers shall immediately enter the water and at the second long whistle return (to the wall and assume the) starting position.


When the swimmers and officials are ready, the Referee shall signal with an outstretched arm to the Starter that the swimmers are under the Starter's control. The starter will then give the command "Take your mark," and sound the start signal when all swimmers are in the ready position and steady.

ande
September 14th, 2007, 02:12 PM
SDK is Streamline Dolphin Kick (without a board)
you can SDK on your back, side, or belly.
Swimmers use it when they push off the wall in FreeStyle, Butterfly and backstroke. I coined SDK because I didn't want to write out
Streamline Dolphin Kick everytime I mentioned it in my blog. Thus the SDK acronym.

In practice, people can dolphin kick with a board. So I try to be specific. I college we did way more kicking with boards than without. I know Eddie now has the team do a lot of SDK sets.

People dolphin kick when they swim fly. The more you do it the better sense of technique and timing you develop.
For many people SDK is the 2nd fastest way to move through the water.

Streamline dolphin kicking is a critical skill that's transformed swimming over the last 20 years. In 1986 the Berkoff Blastoff debuted, when David Berkoff broke the American Record in the 100 yard backstroke, then he broke the world record. There were other swimmers who used SDK before that, but none had the kind of success he did. Surprisingly SDK didn't translate to butterfly and freestyle till a few years later.

Then Fina implemented a rule that swimmers could only kick 15 meters off each wall.

Swimmers need to learn how to SDK and improve their conditioning. Then they need to test their ability to see if they should use it or not. Also if they should use it, they need to figure out how much. Most swimmers have a cross over point, they point where they should transition from SDK to swimming

Some swimmers have a very fast SDK. They can SDK faster or just as fast as they can swim. Fatigue and the need to breathe also determines the zone where swimmers should transition from SDK to swimming.

In years past when swimmers pushed off the wall they'd streamline and flutter kick, many swimmers SDK way faster than they SFK

If a swimmer doesn't have a fast SDK, they shouldn't use it, they should dive in streamlined flutter kick then start swimming

Feel free to ask questions in Ask Ande too.
http://www.usms.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4418


Superb thread idea; thanks to originator.

My dumb question of the day: Is there a difference between streamlined dolphin kick and "regular" dolphin kick?



Thanks,
VB

marksman
September 14th, 2007, 07:20 PM
I have an old video of Phelps vs. Piersol in the 2004 trials, 200 back. Phelps was catching him after every turn because his SDK was faster than Piersol's remarkable backstroke. And not just a little faster. It'll be interesting to see whether it plays any role in the longer freestyle events, an efficient SDK might require less energy than free.

Willow
September 14th, 2007, 07:29 PM
My question is what the heck is an FAF Sista and should I want to be one someday when I grow up?

ViveBene
September 14th, 2007, 08:24 PM
Thanks to Ande for details on the streamlined dolphin kick.

I am just beginning the dolphin kick in four positions, with Zoomers, no board. This might, in fact, be fun! :cool:

Regards,
VB

Seagurl51
September 14th, 2007, 08:48 PM
My question is what the heck is an FAF Sista and should I want to be one someday when I grow up?

FAF stands for Fast, Athletic, and Flirtasious....and you should want to be one. They're pretty amazing. :cheerleader: I love my sistas!

smontanaro
September 14th, 2007, 09:53 PM
I am just beginning the dolphin kick in four positions, with Zoomers, no board. This might, in fact, be fun!

I rather enjoy kicking with my Zoomers as well, even the occasional bit of dolphin kick.

Skip Montanaro

geochuck
September 14th, 2007, 10:23 PM
F A F I thought it meant Fallen Arch Feet.

The Fortress
September 14th, 2007, 11:16 PM
My question is what the heck is an FAF Sista and should I want to be one someday when I grow up?

Well of course! The acronym FAF is from the superhero quiz thread,
http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=7471&highlight=superhero+quiz.

FAF is the "Flash," deemed to be "fast, athletic and flirtatious," as my baby sistah Kyra pointed out. But you don't have to be a growed up to be one! It's OK to be something else. As I recall, we had a lot of "Superman" and "Spiderman" types on the forum. The Spiderman types are all keeping track of their workouts on excel, right Aquafeisty? :thhbbb:

On another note, four position dolphin kick is the way to go IMHO. Makes you better at fly, improves balance in the water. Even more fun with an MF. Of course, you can do them without one, as ande (Superman/Spiderman) will tell you.

And if you're wondering about the "Draculina," that is really my "twin sistah," Swimr4Life/Beth McGee and me, who are are periodic insomniacs and nightowls. FlyQueen too. We've owned up. There is a suspected correlation between nightowl syndrome and FAF status.

P.S. Quicksilver is an FAF too!

Peter Cruise
September 15th, 2007, 12:12 AM
FAF sistas are very dangerous women.Consider signing a waiver before aspiring to become one.

3strokes
September 15th, 2007, 07:39 AM
FAF stands for Fast, Athletic, and Flirtasious....and you should want to be one. They're pretty amazing. :cheerleader: I love my sistas!

And if a guy were to call himself (notice I said himself, not myself) a FAF Brudder, would he want the first "F" to still stand for "fast"? And come to think of it, even for ladies wouldn't that "Fast" -possibly- give a wrong impression? I like the 2nd "F".

There is one car I often see in the pool's parking lot with a license plate that reads "FAF 27" (or maybe 37, it's the FAF I noticed. Now that I know what the Fs are for, I'll try to "f"ind out who the owner is. (Couldn't be a noodler, thank God; wrong times.)

cathlaur
September 15th, 2007, 11:00 AM
Just wanted you all to know I love this post. I read it and learn and laugh

Thanks

Katie

ensignada
September 15th, 2007, 11:18 AM
Poolraat: Thank you for posting the official procedure. It didn't dawn on me until it was my turn to swim that I didn't really know what the procedure was. Thankfully, the others in my heat did!

Ande: I had no idea you coined the acronym SDK. Thank you for posting an explanation on this thread.

For newbies to the forum, Ande has started several threads which are a treasure-trove of info, esp his "Ask Ande" and " Swimming Faster Faster" threads. He's one of the resident swim gurus and generously helpful.


F A F I thought it meant Fallen Arch Feet.

For some of us, it does, George.


Just wanted you all to know I love this post. I read it and learn and laugh

Glad you are enjoying it and learning from it!

Thrashing Slug
September 15th, 2007, 01:16 PM
Good idea for a thread , thanks Barb. I registered here awhile ago but I don't post much and probably never introduced myself. My name is Chris. I'm fairly new to swimming; I started 4 years ago with no previous background.

I don't really have any newbie questions, though it is interesting to finally learn what FAF means. I thought it had something to do with vampires, or night owls. I used to be one of those back when I worked night shift, but now I've switched over to the other side and am a morning person.

I plan to swim my first meet next year, so I may have newbie questions then. You guys do a pretty good job of covering most topics though.

ensignada
September 15th, 2007, 02:25 PM
Love your name,Thrashing Slug. I really wish I had thought of that myself!

I can understand why you connected FAF sisters and vampires/night owls. Several of the FAF sisters periodically deal with insomnia for various reasons. During a particularly widespread bad spell, the "draculina" moniker was born.

Good luck with your first meet. Have you picked one out yet?

aquaFeisty
September 15th, 2007, 03:23 PM
Cool thread, Barb!

With the whistles at meets, a good bit of advice is to pay attention to the start of a few heats before yours. The starter usually will have a 'routine' that does not vary. Around here, it's usually 3 short whistles to signal to get ready for your heat and one long whistle means be ready to take your marks. Then (I think) the starter usually announces the heat and event (for example, "Mixed 50 free, heat 2")... then it's 'swimmers take your marks' and then the beep. Some starters are fast and some hold you on the blocks for what feels like forever before the beep finally goes. If you watch a few heats, you can get the pattern and the rhythm for your starter and it can help your nerves a bit!!!

Kudos to everyone that attempts a meet for the first time! Way to go!

Willow
September 15th, 2007, 10:18 PM
Well, I am neither fast nor athletic YET, but I am shamefully flirtatious. Can I be a postulant FAF?

Willow
September 15th, 2007, 10:24 PM
It says I'm Wonder Woman. I want to be Wonder Woman with a monofin.

The Fortress
September 15th, 2007, 11:10 PM
It says I'm Wonder Woman. I want to be Wonder Woman with a monofin.

(S)he-Man is Wonder Woman. We'd all appreciate it if you could convince that wunderkind to get over her anti-fin attitude and embrace her inner mermaid. ;)

ensignada
September 16th, 2007, 04:58 PM
Speaking of fins, I have another question (or two).

What do the different types of fins do to/for you?

I've seen long "practice" fins, long really flexible thin fins, long skinny fins, medium length fins, and fins that barely extend beyond the toes.

What's the story?

FlyQueen
September 16th, 2007, 07:43 PM
The short fins are probably zoomers they come in blue and red. The blue ones are a bit more flexible than the red. They are supposed to help build muscles strength. They can also help people with wonky shoulders because they make your legs more effective and efficient and therefore take stress off of your shoulders. I use Zoomers on rare occassions but generally am anti-fin.

In my opinion the longer the fin the less work you do and the faster you go. When you put long fins on you just zip what feels like effortlessly to the otherside of the pool. I see no purpose for them other than scuba diving.

Monofins are all the rage on here too (or is that just because my beloved FAF sistah loves hers?).

My beef with fins is that people that love them tend to overuse them and become dependent. I tend to think that you should do about 75% (or more) of your practices the way you'll swim at a meet or in a tri. In other words sans equipment.

ensignada
September 16th, 2007, 08:35 PM
Thanks, FQ. Funny story:

One of the DVDs I have recommends fins for some of the drills, so that you don't spend as much energy on just keeping afloat. With that in mind, I bought some regular practice fins. The drills usually go drill 25/ swim 25 - the first time I did that, I built up far more speed on the swim part than I'm used to, didn't expect the wall so soon, couldn't stop quick enough and went flying into the wall. I had bruises on the side of my rib cage. I couldn't stop laughing and cursing.

The Fortress
September 16th, 2007, 09:42 PM
The short fins are probably zoomers they come in blue and red. The blue ones are a bit more flexible than the red. They are supposed to help build muscles strength. They can also help people with wonky shoulders because they make your legs more effective and efficient and therefore take stress off of your shoulders. I use Zoomers on rare occassions but generally am anti-fin.

In my opinion, the longer the fin the less work you do and the faster you go. When you put long fins on you just zip what feels like effortlessly to the otherside of the pool. I see no purpose for them other than scuba diving.

Monofins are all the rage on here too (or is that just because my beloved FAF sistah loves hers?).

My beef with fins is that people that love them tend to overuse them and become dependent. I tend to think that you should do about 75% (or more) of your practices the way you'll swim at a meet or in a tri. In other words sans equipment.

#1 use for fins: shoulder savers (I have micro-tearing in my labrum aka tendonosis.)

I'm not that fond of zoomers myself. I use the cheapo regular long practice fins. I had a nifty pair of finis Z2 I liked, but they disappeared. I wouldn't mind trying the zura fins, which I guess are supposed to promote a more natural kick and not be as crutch-like.

IMHO:

Longer fins: better for undulation, streamlining and SDKs
Shorter fins: sustain form over longer distances, shorter/faster kick (especially with the finis Z2), makes you work harder than longer fins
Wider blades: better for the short axis strokes

Other uses for fins:

ramp up cardio
build leg strength
muscle memory in the legs for efficient kicking and SDKs
ankle flexibility
enhance body rotation
explosive speed work
wicked underwater work
good for some drills
good for learning fly

I think fin use really depends on individual needs and temperment. Many people on this forum have stated that fins have no place whatsoever in competitive swimming. This seems unduly narrow minded to me. Just because fins aren't used in an actual race doesn't mean, ipso facto, that they can't enhance race performance. Fins can, of course, be overused as a crutch, as FlyQueen notes. Chronic overuse can cause your kick not to be integrated well into your stroke, etc., especially over longer distances. But if you have cranky shoulders, like sprint work or need some variety/fun in your workout, go ahead. For me, with my fly/back sprint emphasis and cranky shoulders (and the fact that my times are improving), I can only conclude that fins are not only NOT harming me, but they are affirmatively improving my swimming. But to each his own. This theory would probably not work for a distance freestyler. It's really an individual thing. Some swimmers like toys, others don't. Use what works for you. It might be trial and error at first. I don't use kickboards, pull buoys or paddles at all.

Oh, I rarely use fins for kick sets, except sometimes for underwater shooters or 25 sprints. But I do those without fins all the time too. My MF is definitely my very fav.

FlyQueen
September 16th, 2007, 10:59 PM
Fort-y - I agree with all you said. I like sprinting 25s & 50s with fins because I remember to kick all out the whole time then. MY ADHD gets the better of me from time to time with kicking.

I don't like fly with fins mostly because it changes your timing and I think that it's such an important part of fly that it cancels out the benefit. I never learned fly with fins and think I am better off.

The part about doing kick sets without fins is right on. I think it defeats the purpose. Fins for cranky shoulders are totally acceptable.

The Fortress
September 16th, 2007, 11:50 PM
I don't like fly with fins mostly because it changes your timing and I think that it's such an important part of fly that it cancels out the benefit. I never learned fly with fins and think I am better off.

The part about doing kick sets without fins is right on. I think it defeats the purpose. Fins for cranky shoulders are totally acceptable.

I almost always do fly with fins, except for some 25s and occasional 50s. :thhbbb: But for me, it's just a shoulder issue. (The issue of whether fly is, by defintion, hard on the shoulders of masters swimmers has been debated in prior threads. For me, with an injury in the back of the shoulder socket/labrum and loosey goosey tendons, fly (and free) is hard on my shoulders.) But I compensate with so many SDKs, it doesn't seem to throw me off too much in races. But then I don't do 200 flys either where other factors are more important. I think fly drills with fins are great, where they just maintain body position. Although I'm not exactly a newbie flyer, I still do fly drills in almost every practice. I love the caterpillar drill, chest press fly and one arm fly. They are good drills to do with fins, as long as you're not kicking with the fins. You're just working on undulation, head position and body position. Fins use totally depends on the needs of the user and the purpose for which they're used. With tendonosis and a SLAP lesion (which I'm trying to fix), I wouldn't be swimming without them. I have no idea why fins seem to irritate people more than paddle and pull buoy use, but they do. Sigh. I guess it's the results that matter. To me, apart from the shoulder saving benefits, fins are an aid the same way drylands or weights are a means to go faster.

I agree, generally no point in with kicking with fins unless you're working on SDKs. But fins may help people who are bending their knees too much while kicking, I guess. But I don't think it's advisable to use them to keep up in a kick set. Or to keep up in a swim set. Use them for a specific purpose or just for fun.

poolraat
September 17th, 2007, 11:34 AM
Deleted, duplicate post.

poolraat
September 17th, 2007, 11:36 AM
But for me, it's just a shoulder issue. (The issue of whether fly is, by defintion, hard on the shoulders of masters swimmers has been debated in prior threads. For me, with an injury in the back of the shoulder socket/labrum and loosey goosey tendons, fly (and free) is hard on my shoulders.)

:thhbbb: If you swam it right you wouldn't have shoulder problems.:thhbbb:

Slowswim
September 17th, 2007, 12:18 PM
I heard all sorts of terms (long-axis/short-axis, SDKs, slippage - to name a few)

Barb: I know SDK, but what is Long-axis/short-axis :dunno:and I'm almost afraid to ask, what's slippage? :blush: :confused:

slknight
September 17th, 2007, 12:23 PM
Barb: I know SDK, but what is Long-axis/short-axis :dunno:and I'm almost afraid to ask, what's slippage? :blush: :confused:

Long-axis strokes are backstroke and freestyle. Short-axis strokes are butterfly and breaststroke.

Slowswim
September 17th, 2007, 12:28 PM
Long-axis strokes are backstroke and freestyle. Short-axis strokes are butterfly and breaststroke.

Thanx, the term makes sense, but don't seem to be a particularly useful term.
:violin:

ensignada
September 17th, 2007, 12:28 PM
I'll take a stab at this, Bill, and let the experts correct me if I'm wrong.

The long/short thing has to do with the axis your body rotates around for a particular stroke.

In freestyle and back, the body rotates from side to side, along a long axis from the top of your head to the bottom of your torso (think of yourself as a shish kabob with the skewer in your head). You rotate from side to side with every stroke.

In breast and fly, the body rotates (or in my case, should rotate) aroung a short axis going from one side of the pelvis to the other (like a see saw). You rotate back and forth with every stroke.

I'll let someone else explain slippage.

Slowswim
September 17th, 2007, 12:32 PM
(think of yourself as a shish kabob with the skewer in your head)

I do that every day at work now!

Thanx your explanation does draw a mental picture that does have utility.
:notworthy:

The Fortress
September 17th, 2007, 01:11 PM
:thhbbb: If you swam it right you wouldn't have shoulder problems.:thhbbb:

Did you change your name? :thhbbb:

You, buster, have never even seen me do the king of strokes. I have witnesses.

ensignada
September 17th, 2007, 11:22 PM
I do that every day at work now!

Thanx your explanation does draw a mental picture that does have utility.
:notworthy:

Have to give credit to Carrie/Aquafeisty who explained it to me first. :notworthy:

aquaFeisty
September 18th, 2007, 08:53 AM
Thanks, Barb!!!

Actually, Slowswim there was a thread a little while back re: short axis. Allen summed it up best, I think, when he said that short axis strokes have more of an undulation than a see-saw. Short axis is kind of misleading... I really think people called it that just because it's the opposite of long axis (which is a VERY good description for the body motion in free and back.)

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=8368&highlight=long+axis+short

islandsox
September 18th, 2007, 09:06 AM
Slippage is when you lose the water that you have grabbed at the catch portion of the stroke and fail to push that grabbed water throughout the stroke. Thus, the grabbed water is "lost" and the arm goes through the underwater stroke portion quickly in order to get to the recovery portion and into the grab (pull) portion again.

This is predominant in people who drop their elbows and who start the "S" movement too early in the underwater pull portion of the stroke. And many people equate the "S" movement with the outsweep and insweep which is incorrect.

Donna

Slowswim
September 18th, 2007, 11:16 AM
This is predominant in people who drop their elbows and who start the "S" movement too early in the underwater pull portion of the stroke. And many people equate the "S" movement with the outsweep and insweep which is incorrect.

Donna

You just described me. My coaches kept telling me that I was dropping my elbow, but couldn't really tell me what I was doing to stop it. I recently started to feel the water more and have less slippage in the last half of the underwater stroke.

How do I know that my elbow is dropping? I have very inflexible shoulders but have been working on it. 6 months ago, my hand entry would be near my forehead and because of my lack of flexibility would push my hand forward underwater into a kind of Hitler salute (palm down but below me). I know recover my arm completely above the water and my palm comes down on to the water. I think I went from one extreme to the other in trying to fix my elbow problem.

geochuck
September 18th, 2007, 01:09 PM
Dare I mention OJ at this time. OJ has lots of carbs.

OJ gets everyone into problems.

islandsox
September 18th, 2007, 01:55 PM
You just described me. My coaches kept telling me that I was dropping my elbow, but couldn't really tell me what I was doing to stop it. I recently started to feel the water more and have less slippage in the last half of the underwater stroke.

How do I know that my elbow is dropping? I have very inflexible shoulders but have been working on it. 6 months ago, my hand entry would be near my forehead and because of my lack of flexibility would push my hand forward underwater into a kind of Hitler salute (palm down but below me). I know recover my arm completely above the water and my palm comes down on to the water. I think I went from one extreme to the other in trying to fix my elbow problem.

I've been helping some triathletes here in Texas with this problem. Most every single one of them start the hand entry right by their ears or head instead of the arm entering straight ahead (at shoulder width with a longer reach). This creates a second problem to the slippage: it causes them to "fishtail" as they swim rather than more in a straight line. Once they started correcting this, they also started swimming forward and more straight AND with slippage reductions they travel faster.

The fingertip drill helped them immensely, as did keeping an eye on their elbow being higher than the hand on the pull portion. I think for lots of people that dropping the elbow is just comfortable, but is a terrible habit.

And it sounds as if you are making great corrections; way to go Bill!

Donna

geochuck
September 18th, 2007, 01:57 PM
Dropped elbows during the catch phase. Every triathlete I have worked has this problem. Most swimmers I have worked with have had this problem and it is easily changed. The fast change is to swim with the forearms. If this explanation works for you problem solved. If not it takes lots of words to solve this when we are writing it out.

islandsox
September 18th, 2007, 02:02 PM
Dropped elbows during the catch phase. Every triathlete I have worked has this problem. Most swimmers I have worked with have had this problem and it is easily changed. The fast change is to swim with the forearms. If this explanation works for you problem solved. If not it takes lots of words to solve this when we are writing it out.

True, George. I also had this group swim with fists and they realized the importance of the hand/forearm/correct entry was to the catch portion. One more set of e-z words to help with the dropped elbows: think of swimming with your forearm/shoulder over a barrel (exaggerated of course), but one gets the picture with that description.

Dropped elbows=slow swimming. Always.

Karen Duggan
September 18th, 2007, 02:05 PM
Careful, too much slippage and you'll end up like me (if you're a chick of course!) :p
:hug:

geochuck
September 18th, 2007, 02:14 PM
You know me I try to keep it simple.


True, George. I also had this group swim with fists and they realized the importance of the hand/forearm/correct entry was to the catch portion. One more set of e-z words to help with the dropped elbows: think of swimming with your forearm/shoulder over a barrel (exaggerated of course), but one gets the picture with that description.

Dropped elbows=slow swimming. Always.

islandsox
September 18th, 2007, 05:55 PM
Careful, too much slippage and you'll end up like me (if you're a chick of course!) :p
:hug:


:rofl::rofl:
Donna

ensignada
October 16th, 2007, 09:42 PM
A couple of weeks ago, I swam several 25s for time to get a seed time for a sprint meet. I learned several things from this experience, which I hope can save other Newbies some grief and pain.

I'm not sure what went wrong, but I think it was a combination of two factors: (1) I wasn't nearly warmed up enough and (2) I tried to swim "faster" than my technique could hold up to. :doh:

Anyway, I hurt myself - shoulders, upper back, neck. I swam through the pain for a week or so when everything locked up. Between anti-inflamatories, muscle relaxants, a massage, some chiropractic and a week off, I'm back to not hurting. BUT, I had hoped to swim my best in the upcoming meet and now I'm hoping just to swim without hurting myself (no 25s; I learned my lesson). I swam for the first time today (gingerly) and am totally cranked off at myself for messing up. :frustrated:

Aquafeisty warned me of the dangers of swimming too hard to soon, and to be honest, I didn't think a few 25 yd sprints would count as too hard. So, my fellow newbies, before you do something like this (esp if you are swimming alone), consult with some of the gurus here on the correct way to proceed so you can do it without injury. :cane: