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shark
September 13th, 2007, 02:33 PM
Does anyone know of any literature available that discourages resistant training in younger age groups? Two of my sons are swimming for a local club and the coach wants my 10 year old to use a drag suit and paddles. Before I confront the coach on this issue I need some literature that suggests resistant training in pre-puberty individuals is misquided. Does anyone know of any articles suggesting younger age groups should use more technique related drills instead of power driven sets? I need evidence against this practice to show the coach and other parents. My opinion isn't enough. I have a couple of Go Swim articles and articles off of the USA Swimming site, but I feel I need more.

Thanks for any response.

tjburk
September 13th, 2007, 03:33 PM
As an age group coach myself.....I don't necessarily agree with a drag suit at that age, but I don't see where it would hurt......the paddles, if used correctly can be used for technique work.....will all depend on the sets the coach has them do......

quicksilver
September 13th, 2007, 04:44 PM
You might want to read this...
http://swimming.about.com/od/swimmersshoulder/a/shoulder_kk.htm

Land training seems to be fine however ...if done with supervision.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/strength-training/HQ01010

shark
September 13th, 2007, 09:37 PM
[QUOTE=quicksilver;106156]You might want to read this...
http://swimming.about.com/od/swimmersshoulder/a/shoulder_kk.htm

Quicksilver,

Thanks for the site. I can't believe that this is the only piece of literature available on this topic. I cannot find anything that says that prepuberty adolescent children shouldn't use resistant training. I guess I am going to have to do a study and publish a paper. My search continues.

Bayou Dan
September 13th, 2007, 10:17 PM
Shark,

The American Academy of Pediatrics published a paper titled "Strength Training by Children and Adolescents" (I found it when I was researching whether my 10 year old should lift). It evaluates the pros/cons of resistance training for kids. It has a set of recommendations; the gist of it is that resistance training for kids can be safe and effective, provided proper technique is followed, and a low weight/8-15 rep program that covers all the major muscle groups is used. The paper has a fairly extensive set of references on resistance training that you could look into.

It seems to me that one of the key problems with paddles is that it would be difficult, if not impossible, to monitor technique when you have lots of kids swimming. If the coach wants to do resistance training, stretch cords would perhaps be a better alternative.

Dan

geochuck
September 13th, 2007, 10:40 PM
When I coached the youngsters, I limited their paddle work and did not allow them to power swim. It was just to be used as a relaxed drill to let them understand where their hands were to go while swimming.

The Swim Paddles enhance a workout by efficiently displacing water while allowing you to focus on stroke form. They should only used to focus on form, not to be used for heavy workouts.

quicksilver
September 14th, 2007, 08:21 AM
Brian,

Paddles are a known cause of shoulder problems. Although some swimmers might be lucky and stay immune to the ill effects, others may slowly be doing damage which starts out as a mild soreness before it develops into a fully blown problem.

Personally we trained with them as kids...and the pain was shrugged off as part of the training process. Bad idea. We had an AAU coach who dreamed up medieval pulling sets with paddles and an inner tube around the ankles (for additional drag). And unfortunately boys will tend to tough things out for fear of not wanting to be called wimpy. It must be good if coach says so...Right?! Not always.

In my humble opinion, I'd rather have an age group swimmer develop feel for the water, and build their strength with dry land routines. Paddles may build large triceps and shoulders, but they offer a false sense of speed. And they numb the "feel" for the water. By the time a kid says "hey coach, my shoulder hurts"...it may be too late.

Google shoulder injuries in swimmers....and hundreds of articles can be found. Every one of them advises to lay off of the paddles as part of the rehab process...particularly after the 'surgery' has been performed. Your concern is well founded. No one wants to send their kid to a sports therapist.



Good luck in your efforts.


http://ezinearticles.com/?Prevention-of-Shoulder-Injuries-Associated-With-Swimming&id=369262

shark
September 14th, 2007, 10:03 AM
Google shoulder injuries in swimmers....and hundreds of articles can be found. Every one of them advises to lay off of the paddles as part of the rehab process...particularly after the 'surgery' has been performed. Your concern is well founded. No one wants to send their kid to a sports therapist.

I have searched Google for "shoulder injuries preadolescent swimmers" and have a ton of articles about shoulder injuries in swimmers. Most list use of paddles as a factor in shoulder injury. Increased resistance done improperly with bad technique will lead to problems. This should be common sense. My dilemma is that the local club where my son belongs has a coach without any common sense. I have at least twenty articles preaching the evils of "paddle use with bad technique" in swimming. I am continuing my search but none of the articles say specifically "Do not use resistance training with prepuberty swimmers." My son will not use paddles until he has the shoulder strength to withstand the added resistance. My worry is with all of the other youngsters that are pretty good now but that might not be around to swim in the future because someone wants them to train with paddles.

I do not disagree with paddle use in individuals that can handle the added pressure on the shoulders. In college we used homemade paddles out of sheet metal. They were 8"x10" with a single piece of surgical tubing across the center. I loved using them. We use to be able to just cruise with them plus a buoy and a tube around the ankles. The goal was to get under 15 minutes for a 1500 pull. 15:06 was as fast as I got. College yes, age group no.

geochuck
September 14th, 2007, 10:08 AM
Just to mention more shoulder injuries are caused by improper streatching.

shark
September 14th, 2007, 10:22 AM
The American Academy of Pediatrics published a paper titled "Strength Training by Children and Adolescents"

Bayou Dan,

Thanks for the link. I found it and will use it in my pursuit of children shoulder happiness.

shark
September 14th, 2007, 10:41 AM
Just to mention more shoulder injuries are caused by improper streaching.

Geochuck,

I appreciate your input. By the way, is it true that shaving in swimming was introduced by the Australians at the 1956 Olympics. The way I heard the story, it was the first time a team won every gold medal in a single sport. Since you were there, is this true? or an urban legend. Just curious.

geochuck
September 14th, 2007, 10:53 AM
I happened to be in a conversation with a few Australin swimmers and an Italian bike rider just before the 56 Olympics started. He was telling us that he shaved his legs. He said that it cut down on resistance and if he fell his scrapes from falling were less. He also said it is better not to have hair when getting a massage on his legs.

Jon Hendricks was a blond fellow and was very hairy. I just can not remember if they shaved or not. I will try to contact one of the Aussies and will get back to you.

geochuck
September 14th, 2007, 11:05 AM
John Hendricks not a hair on his body in this photo it was taken at the 1956 Olympics.

quicksilver
September 14th, 2007, 11:06 AM
Hey Brian,

Based on your 1500 time...with the torture tube...you must have been one heck of distance swimmer (Brian Goodell initially came to mind...but he may have been a little faster). That said...you probably know all too well about shoulder strain.

When I started swimming again in my early forties, I became a paddle junkey...until something went wrong...and it was excruciating to even reach over and scratch my back. Thankfully it was caught early, and they haven't been used since.

Being a purist (no buoys, no paddles) gets a little boring. But older swimmers shouldn't take the risk if they want to continue training year after year. Kids on the other hand may not have a choice in saying no to the training toys, and should really be kept safe from injury when possible. Not all of them will have a shoulder breakdown...but since I began coaching age groupers these past few years...it was surprising to hear of the numbers from other clubs who wound up getting sidelined before the age of 18.

shark
September 14th, 2007, 12:48 PM
(Brian Goodell)

it was surprising to hear of the numbers from other clubs who wound up getting sidelined before the age of 18.

Brian Goodell I am not. I cannot be mentioned in the same class as he. A class of his own.

I am trying to prevent kids (and for that matter, adults too) in my area from getting sidelined due to overtraining with bad technique. A perfect world is what I seek. Does it exist? Hmmm....

tjburk
September 14th, 2007, 01:10 PM
Brian, playing devil's advocate here.......

I could say that there are just as many articles promoting the use of paddles in that age group.....

The key to this whole issue is using the paddles correctly......pull the coach aside and tell him your concerns......bring with you the evidence both pro and con and discuss it with him.....unless he is a total MORON he should listen to you and be able to give you his strategy on how he plans on using them. If he doesn't.......then you definitely have an issue!!!!

shark
September 14th, 2007, 01:35 PM
I could say that there are just as many articles promoting the use of paddles in that age group.....

My three day search has not turned up any article that states pro's of paddle use. Every article I have seen has been negative towards the use of paddles.

shark
September 21st, 2007, 04:54 PM
I contacted a guy who was around when they invented paddle use in swimming. I got a very spirited e-mail from him, somewhere in Florida. He suggested to use extreme caution when using paddles with children of prepuberty age. And even older age groups should use them to create good strokes, not for resistance training only. I like the way he flips his paddles around to use them for different strokes. It seems as if my search is proving to be fruitful. Three icons in a week. Now, if only Geochuck will tell me about Ford Kono it would be a great start to the weekend.

"Shoot low men, their ridin' shetlands." - unknown

geochuck
September 21st, 2007, 05:21 PM
Ford Kono born same year as me only in January, I was born in May 1933. We raced a few times. He had a huge deep 6 beat kick. When he kicked in a pool his heals came out of the water but not his whole foot. He was known for his very deep kick his toes hit the bottom in the shallow end of the pool. His kick went down below the surface about 40 inches. He was very smooth and a pleasure to watch. Met him at Yale University at a swim meet for the first time and several times after that.

His Idea was the foot should not exit the water when kicking during a race. But if you watch this video you will see him come 2nd in the 400m at the 1952 Olypics. There is a very short part of the video shows his stroke and a massive kick and a very straight arm recovery. http://www.ishof.org/video_archive/swimming/olympic_highlights52.htm

http://www.ishof.org/honorees/72/72fkonno.html

craiglll@yahoo.com
September 22nd, 2007, 03:00 PM
Does anyone know of any literature available that discourages resistant training in younger age groups? Two of my sons are swimming for a local club and the coach wants my 10 year old to use a drag suit and paddles. Before I confront the coach on this issue I need some literature that suggests resistant training in pre-puberty individuals is misquided. Does anyone know of any articles suggesting younger age groups should use more technique related drills instead of power driven sets? I need evidence against this practice to show the coach and other parents. My opinion isn't enough. I have a couple of Go Swim articles and articles off of the USA Swimming site, but I feel I need more.

Thanks for any response.

Your sons' coach is an idiot. Look at most health and fitness book for kids or PE training books for potential teachers.

shark
September 22nd, 2007, 04:57 PM
Ford Kono born same year as me only in January, I was born in May 1933. We raced a few times. He had a huge deep 6 beat kick. When he kicked in a pool his heals came out of the water but not his whole foot. He was known for his very deep kick his toes hit the bottom in the shallow end of the pool. His kick went down below the surface about 40 inches. He was very smooth and a pleasure to watch. Met him at Yale University at a swim meet for the first time and several times after that.

His Idea was the foot should not exit the water when kicking during a race. But if you watch this video you will see him come 2nd in the 400m at the 1952 Olypics. There is a very short part of the video shows his stroke and a massive kick and a very straight arm recovery. http://www.ishof.org/video_archive/swimming/olympic_highlights52.htm

http://www.ishof.org/honorees/72/72fkonno.html

Thanks Geochuck. I love that historical stuff. Growing up in Ohio and competing at the old Mike Peppe Aquatic Center in Larkins Hall at The Ohio State University, Kono had this big black and white picture on the wall hung by Peppe himself along with all of the other great swimmers from Peppe's run in the late 40's, 50's and 60's. 11 NCAA Titles. I always wondered about that guy and how he swam. Great Stuff.

"If if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd have x-mas every day." - unknown

geochuck
September 22nd, 2007, 05:51 PM
In 1956 after the Olympics at the fina meet we swam on the same 800m relay team. We represented North America. He was not a big guy but he sure could swim.

shark
September 23rd, 2007, 01:50 PM
In 1956 after the Olympics at the fina meet we swam on the same 800m relay team. We represented North America. He was not a big guy but he sure could swim.

OUTSTANDING GEOCHUCK! Hip, Hip, Hooray! Keep 'em comin'. "Help me Obiwan Kenobi. You're my only hope." -Princess Leia