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Thrashing Slug
September 15th, 2007, 01:31 PM
I could use some advice from experienced breaststrokers on the proper pull technique. I have a naturally good breaststroke kick, which probably makes up 90% of my propulsion at this point. I know that breaststroke is the stroke with the most potential for me, but I seem unable to get the right feel for the pull. Every once in a while I have one of those really smooth swims where I can feel myself riding the wave, but I cannot recreate that at will.

I've tried the hand paddles drill where I swim BR with the paddles on backwards so they are not attached to my hands at all. I can keep the paddles on pretty easily. I think I'm using the right basic technique, at least based on all the descriptions I've been able to find. Yet when I swim breast, my coach says that my arms look "stiff", like I'm not turning them in enough.

I would like to understand what the proper pull should look like and feel like, before I start increasing my yardage and intensity.

TIA

geochuck
September 15th, 2007, 02:02 PM
Thanks to Hoffman watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0yZpLykMJE&mode=related&search=

Thrashing Slug
September 15th, 2007, 05:04 PM
Thanks George. That's some of the best underwater photography I've seen. Nice, high quality video.

Who is the woman in the video? Is she fast? Her timing seems off. That doesn't look like how I want to swim breaststroke. In fact, it looks kind of like how I feel when I'm having an off day and not "riding the wave" right. You know, torso angled up like a plank, blocking the water. As opposed to lunging forward, driving over the wave.

I wish I could see a similar detailed analysis of Hansen or Kitajima. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coFvzTXpvgc

TeamTermin
September 15th, 2007, 06:05 PM
If you want to get a sense of how the velocity changes during the underwater pull phase, here is some good video with a corresponding velocity graph. There are a number of videos to view. All the breaststrokers in these video's were Division I swimmers with 100 yard times between 56.8 and 57.8 There is also a link to a research paper that was recently presented at one of the top international symposiums from last summer on the page.

http://www.teamtermin.com/velocity_meter_video.shtml

Hope that helps....

geochuck
September 15th, 2007, 06:37 PM
This one is also pretty good but not Hansen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odrf7wjshQY&mode=related&search=

Allen Stark
September 15th, 2007, 07:10 PM
Do you have any video of yourself so we can see what you look like. I think it is vital in breaststroke to acccellerate throughout the pull into the lunge foreward. I like to think of the pull as having no recovery,you move smoothly from the insweep to the lunge and then extend as streamlined as you can.People who are "swimming up hill" generally are hesitating at the end of their insweep.I'm not sure how you could be doing that though if you can keep the reversed paddles on. Try swimming breaststroke underwater and see if you feel any dead spots.

geochuck
September 15th, 2007, 07:16 PM
Allen I hope you are not asking for my breaststroke videos. I have not done breaststroke since 1954 and it was all underwater. That was in Watertown NY and the pool had water so ironized you could not see underwater. I am not going to tell you what I did underwater and if you did see it you would not think it was breaststroke. It was not I cheated.

Three nice breaststroke videos here. http://www.swimmingcyclingrunning.com/SwimVidOStrokes.asp just go down the list and watch the breaststroke videos.

Allen Stark
September 15th, 2007, 07:21 PM
I meant Chris,but I'd love to see yours. I bet it's not as bad as you let on.:banana:

Thrashing Slug
September 16th, 2007, 03:42 PM
Unfortunately I have no video of myself swimming. I may be able to post one if I can convince my wife to record me.

I'll try swimming the whole stroke underwater to look for dead spots.

quicksilver
September 16th, 2007, 06:51 PM
I'm not a breaststroker...but I have this link saved for some of the kids.
Pictures are helpful. http://www.breaststroke.info/grotebreast.htm



Wayne has a great site too.
http://www.breaststroke.info/


Great forum name too. Thrashing Slug. That's too funny.

gndprx
September 17th, 2007, 09:09 AM
It's interesting. I worked quite a bit on breaststroke technique back in the day as it was one of my main events. Looking at these videos, they look nothing like the technique I was taught in terms of the arm pull.

I was always taught to keep my hands much closer together basically inline with my shoulders. Elbows would be out at around a 90 degree bend. The reasoning was that there was less recovery time and effort on the push if you keep more compact.

These videos show the hands going way out to the sides and generating a very short pull with a lot of recovery effort.

Allen Stark
September 17th, 2007, 08:41 PM
Good pictures.That is about how the pull should look.The insweep is where the power is for most breaststrokers and you want to keep your hands in front of you shoulders at all times.

Slowswim
September 18th, 2007, 09:55 AM
I don't believe my hands go out that far. Its more of a sculling motion. I'll have to work more on the "Y" hand/arm position. Thanx!

What are the common "illegal" motions of the breast stroke?

Allen Stark
September 18th, 2007, 02:52 PM
I'm not sure I under stand the question,but the things that will likely get you DQd are:
taking a dolphin kick before the pull on the pullout(though this isn't called as often as it should be)
head not breaking the surface before the insweep on the pullout breakout(and they will generally give you the benefit of the doubt if it's close)
head not breaking the surface each stroke
taking 2 pulls in a row(sometimes happens to people who misjudge the wall)
not having your feet externally rotated on the kick
not touching with 2 hand simutaneously.
At least these are the common things.

Slowswim
September 19th, 2007, 09:18 AM
Allen:

Thanx that's a good list for me to work on.

geochuck
September 19th, 2007, 09:20 AM
To get DQ'd swim breaststroke like I do.

Dobbie
September 19th, 2007, 07:36 PM
I'm not a breaststroker...but I have this link saved for some of the kids.
Pictures are helpful. http://www.breaststroke.info/grotebreast.htm



Hey QS that's one of the best pieces I've seen on breaststroke.
Clear points and backed up with good photos.:applaud:
Is this from a site that may have pieces on the other strokes?
NB: You mention backstroke is one of your favourites do you have any good links for backstroke?

Best wishes

quicksilver
September 19th, 2007, 08:24 PM
Your welcome Dobbie. Most of the links are just stumbled upon.
And when they're good...I save them.

Here are 2 with a very good explanation of the backstroke.
(Also narrated by Terry Laughlin.)


http://www.limmatsharks.com/backstroke.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAt89iGyBpE


This site has many drills and pointers....
http://www.svl.ch/svlimmat_ratind.html#schwimmen

Dobbie
September 20th, 2007, 09:21 AM
Here are 2 with a very good explanation of the backstroke.
(Also narrated by Terry Laughlin.)


Thanks for these.......

Thrashing Slug
February 7th, 2008, 12:53 AM
I was just watching a video of Hansen posted in another thread, and I noticed it was very obvious he was ending the recovery with his palms turned up. I know that most of the best breaststrokers do this, but I don't understand the rationale for it. Why is turning the palms up good? What happens between the catch and the end of the stroke that results in upturned palms?

To me whenever I do it I feel like I'm missing some of the propulsive part of the pull. It just doesn't feel like I'm getting the most out of the arm stroke. I know that must be wrong.. obviously it's good to turn up your palms, if that's what Hansen is doing. But why?

JMiller
February 7th, 2008, 01:12 AM
I was just watching a video of Hansen posted in another thread, and I noticed it was very obvious he was ending the recovery with his palms turned up. I know that most of the best breaststrokers do this, but I don't understand the rationale for it. Why is turning the palms up good? What happens between the catch and the end of the stroke that results in upturned palms?

To me whenever I do it I feel like I'm missing some of the propulsive part of the pull. It just doesn't feel like I'm getting the most out of the arm stroke. I know that must be wrong.. obviously it's good to turn up your palms, if that's what Hansen is doing. But why?


Hey! Is there a link to the Hansen video I could watch?

geochuck
February 7th, 2008, 01:16 AM
It was always taught by the great breaststroke coaches that it released tention in the forearms.

Brendan Hansen on goswim open the video link http://www.goswim.tv/productreviews_reviews.php?id=4626_0_19_0_C

Thrashing Slug
February 7th, 2008, 01:28 AM
The video I was referring to is one of these, posted by Ande in the sprint thread:

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=10026


http://youtube.com/watch?v=XMvWkXZDhho

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oueVYqbfqrM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mqm7LOqtCVQ

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lS1AzXrw7xk

JMiller
February 7th, 2008, 01:33 AM
The video I was referring to is one of these, posted by Ande in the sprint thread:

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=10026


http://youtube.com/watch?v=XMvWkXZDhho

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oueVYqbfqrM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mqm7LOqtCVQ

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lS1AzXrw7xk

That is precisely why this forum has great value... The speed of shared idea's. Awesome... Thank you... Ya, Ande has posted some very good quality links in many threads, no wonder his blog is so popular...

Here is a great underwater link of Hansen:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PQ_KVpM1y-M&feature=related

Allen Stark
February 7th, 2008, 11:04 AM
I think that as the insweep finishes that the momentum naturally turns your palms.For awhile some coaches were discouraging breaststrokers from doing this believing it gave less feel for the water at the end of the insweep.That never felt right for me and it evidently didn't feel right for most of the breaststrokers as the palm up seems preferred.

Glider
February 7th, 2008, 08:44 PM
I've always thought of that palms up movement as the very last spin of the elbow-to-finger-tip propeller blade, a quick sculling movement that has a forward propulsive movement.

It also forces my elbows together, which initiates the streamlined recovery.

When I tried to stop it, I usually fell down in the water.

Mark


I think that as the insweep finishes that the momentum naturally turns your palms.For awhile some coaches were discouraging breaststrokers from doing this believing it gave less feel for the water at the end of the insweep.That never felt right for me and it evidently didn't feel right for most of the breaststrokers as the palm up seems preferred.

fastjack
February 11th, 2008, 06:38 PM
Here is a great breaststroke race good technique http://www.wa.swimming.org.au/coaching/videos/videos/Breast-Quann&Kovacs100mHeat5Sydney2000.mpg

SwimStud
February 11th, 2008, 06:47 PM
I'm going back to palms up...instead of fighting it... it's how I was taught as a kid...someone on here said not to do this...though I can't recalll who.

geochuck
February 11th, 2008, 11:51 PM
Here is a video that hoffman found http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0yZpLykMJE&mode=related&search=

Blackbeard's Peg
February 12th, 2008, 08:09 AM
I'm going back to palms up...instead of fighting it... it's how I was taught as a kid...someone on here said not to do this...though I can't recalll who.

I was just told recently that the trend is moving towards keeping the palms down, that it is supposed to help you push down and stay on top of the water. Unfortunately I can't get it to work all that well, though maybe it is the absence of a froggy kick. :cane:

SwimStud
February 12th, 2008, 08:28 AM
I was just told recently that the trend is moving towards keeping the palms down, that it is supposed to help you push down and stay on top of the water. Unfortunately I can't get it to work all that well, though maybe it is the absence of a froggy kick. :cane:

I was fast as a kid palms up old style...faster than my peers were at freestyle. I think there is a way around everything. Kick timing is key...trying to optimise the "when" myself.

The way I see it, you're turning your wrists at some point; just as you lunge or at the start of the outsweep. You have to turn them. Hands up or down at during the streamline will not make a difference. I'd like to hear from some top BR'ers who have experimented with theis and who have the insight to define what works best.

In my limited knowledge of the stroke, the fly pull rather than and outsweep gives you more of a lift from the arms. I've been avoiding that in search of finding the lift from the core and the "undulation" that should come from the wave. Sometimes it's there and it's glorious...othertimes it is not.

Mainly though, I'm a masters swimmer, within reason I'll do what doesn't hurt/comes easiest. Heck my recovery near goes over the water anyhow...I was critiqued on this several times but my fastest time was with hands over; not skimming...not under. Anyhow I'm not going for the olympics a tenth of a second here or there doesn't ruin my life. :D

MichiganHusker
February 12th, 2008, 09:13 AM
I just saw this post - it is extremely helpful. Are there any similar type videos for the other strokes?

geochuck
February 12th, 2008, 10:36 AM
Back stroke http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuqQEQz3lmw

Fly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW9DkCL6nfM&feature=related

Free http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VGt_MCDkp8&feature=related

Speedo swim wear http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkHFdWJ8lSI

Allen Stark
February 12th, 2008, 01:00 PM
I think the palms down idea is a theory that makes more sense to coaches than swimmers.It can be taught,but the best now seem palms up.Hands over the surface,at the surface,or just under the surface on the recovery doesn't seem to matter as long as you shoot forward,not up.

SwimStud
February 12th, 2008, 01:06 PM
I think the palms down idea is a theory that makes more sense to coaches than swimmers.It can be taught,but the best now seem palms up.Hands over the surface,at the surface,or just under the surface on the recovery doesn't seem to matter as long as you shoot forward,not up.

People said my over water recovery was weird...I just felt like it was getting a better lunge... it felt like an arching motion, which in my thinking was tied into the wave...


thanks for the input Allen. :)

Allen Stark
February 12th, 2008, 05:15 PM
My hands go over the water at my 50 speed as I ride higher in the water.At 100 and 200 pace they are at the surface.What feels comfortable is probably right.

geochuck
February 14th, 2008, 02:18 PM
Allen I thought I had better add this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odrf7wjshQY

Allen Stark
February 14th, 2008, 05:48 PM
Thank you.That is a great video.I had not seen a good video of Sludinov before.I'm surprised how far back he is bringing his hands.It seems to work for him.He has great streamlining and powerful kick.

rtodd
February 14th, 2008, 07:56 PM
Wow, That is fast. How about Shanteau.....major distance per stroke.

http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/coverage.php?c=153&id=7411

Allen Stark
February 14th, 2008, 08:01 PM
That is the way it should be done(if you have a good enough kick.)

rtodd
February 14th, 2008, 08:06 PM
That's a big if.

Allen Stark
February 14th, 2008, 08:12 PM
As one coach wrote regarding the breaststroke leg of the 400 IM"only a few kids,blessed by God,are allowed to glide."

Thrashing Slug
February 18th, 2008, 05:27 PM
Shanteau didn't look like he was using the fly kick rule. He looked like he was taking two whip kicks underwater. How many kicks are allowed? Is the number limited, or does it not matter as long as you don't exceed 15m?

Allen Stark
February 18th, 2008, 08:23 PM
Nope,he is legal and using one dolphin kick on the pullout and one whipkick after the pullout.The 15M rule doesn't apply to BR.You get one stroke underwater and the pull must precede the kick.

Allen Stark
February 18th, 2008, 08:24 PM
I also have to note how fast Shanteau is off the wall,he has great turn technique.

Crazy Asian
February 26th, 2008, 09:38 PM
eric has amazing distance per stroke.
but on that same website, watch the 100 breast finals - A.
look at the dive of the guy in the blue suit.

he gets 3/4 a body length off of HASEN right after the pullout.
how is he getting that far out!!!!

cowsvils
February 26th, 2008, 09:58 PM
Hetland (the guy in the blue) is an amazing sprinter that is how,he is the fastest 100 breaststroker in NCAAs in season, and he also whips his dolphin kick like it is his job. Hansen is more naturally a 200 breast guy, so even when he races Gangloff or someone like that they'll be ahead off the first 50.

Crazy Asian
February 26th, 2008, 11:03 PM
but is he doing something different than hansen?
i mean 3/4 a body length off the start is HUGE.

cowsvils
February 27th, 2008, 06:50 AM
He gains it really on the pullout, and really just the pull on the pullout. They are even going into the water and then they both pull out and Hetland just surges ahead.

Crazy Asian
February 27th, 2008, 12:46 PM
yeah i know it's his pullout, but i meant is he using a different pullout technique than hansen?

Can anyone find an underwater shot of his pullout?
i'd really like to see his timing of the dolphin and arm pull.