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Glider
October 3rd, 2007, 03:15 PM
Here is something new (the document states 9/24/07) from the USA Swimming site by George T. Edelman, MPT, OCS, MTC: Shoulder Stretching: Helpful or Harmful? (Accompanying PowerPoint) (http://usaswimming.org/USASWeb/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=451&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en)

The conclusion is:


• Cognitive shift in stretching programs
• Stretching is athlete specific
• Shoulder stretches that target the glenohumeral joint capsule can be harmful to the swimmer and are strongly discouraged
• Stretches that target the muscle tissue and respect the musculo-tendon unit - encouraged


Naturally, according to George, I've been doing the exact wrong exercises. &^@#.


What do y'all think of this? Fort?


Mark

scyfreestyler
October 3rd, 2007, 03:22 PM
I would agree with that conclusion. Stretching of the shoulder joint has only brought my grief in the past.

geochuck
October 3rd, 2007, 03:36 PM
Mark I find it very interesting, it proves a lot of my thinking on those grotesque pretzel type stretching exercises.

It seems they are suggesting the gentle type of stretches I would agree to.

I still believe however there should not be any stretches until after your swim and do your cool down swim.

There is a lot of concern about using proper technique, most shoulder injuries are caused by improper stretching, improper technique and not doing a proper warm up in the water.

The Fortress
October 3rd, 2007, 03:42 PM
Aside from a gentle doorway or corner stretch post-swimming, I don't stretch the shoulder joints much. I already got those darn loosey goosey tendons.

But I need to stretch the back and scapular muscles that support the shoulders. When they get all tight, they pull on the tendons. Core and leg stretches are good though. But for the RC and tendons, strengthen, don't stretch.

George: you little instigator.

geochuck
October 3rd, 2007, 04:01 PM
I was told about you Fort, by a famous swim garu, I will not name his name.

Midas
October 3rd, 2007, 04:45 PM
Ugh. I think I did every one of those "bad" stretches in high school and college!

Slowswim
October 3rd, 2007, 04:57 PM
Ugh. I think I did every one of those "bad" stretches in high school and college!

Me too and they were even recommended by this forum.:doh:

geochuck
October 3rd, 2007, 05:09 PM
Slo it was never recommended by me. I have been outspoken and laughed at for my opinon on stretching.

marksman
October 3rd, 2007, 05:32 PM
The local Univ team was including yoga during their training. Seems like it'd be safer as it doesn't involve as much passive stretching or joint isolation.

Allen Stark
October 3rd, 2007, 08:26 PM
I too did all of those bad stretches into my 30s and I have the shoulders to prove it:cry:. I have been doing there 3 good stretches at the end of workout and they seem to help.:banana:

dorothyrde
October 3rd, 2007, 08:32 PM
Yoga does the bend over stretching with the arms behind.

geochuck
October 3rd, 2007, 08:40 PM
Good stretching is not a bad thing. It is the horror stretches I do not like. Most yoga stretches are easy stretch and not too extreme.

Glider
October 3rd, 2007, 08:47 PM
I suddenly seem have two books on stretching and flexibility for sale...Only two months old and perfect condition. :doh:

Original cost $70...can be had for $5. Anyone interested? Anyone?:D

Slowswim
October 4th, 2007, 02:09 PM
Slo it was never recommended by me. I have been outspoken and laughed at for my opinon on stretching.

Very true, but I won't mention those who lead me astray.:shakeshead:

MAC swimmer
October 4th, 2007, 03:40 PM
Wow this is great. I have been doing everything all wrong!! Maybe that's why I strained my rotator cuff. grrrr.

Gil
October 4th, 2007, 05:06 PM
Alan, Which three stretches do you do?

Allen Stark
October 4th, 2007, 06:38 PM
The 3 "good" stretches in the article:Door frame stretch for Pecs
Two Part Lat Stretch
Upper Trapezius/Levator Scapuli Stretch

tulclark
October 5th, 2007, 10:34 AM
I agree, this is good stuff. I've been doing all three of the "bad" stretches. :applaud:

geochuck
October 5th, 2007, 10:40 AM
I wonder how many are still stretching before they swim???

I do stretch my calves very lightly when I walk to the pool. After swimming or walking I again stretch my calves, I never stretch anything else.

Stretch calves 3 X for 7 seconds, 5 times a day since knee operations.

Slowswim
October 5th, 2007, 10:42 AM
I loosen up my shoulders then do slow arm circles, forward and backward. I hope that is OK.

geochuck
October 5th, 2007, 11:34 AM
That one has been a mainstay of swimmers since R K the coach from Yale put it on his exercise booklet. In the late 40s.
http://www.ishof.org/honorees/65/65rkiphuth.html

More than any other coach, Kiphuth was responsible for adding dry land exercises and cross-country running to swimming programs. His success changed the long entrenched theories that swimming muscles had to be soft and trained only in the water. Kiphuth was accepted in Physical Education circles where his articles and several books made universal knowledge the techniques that had been kept secret in a few coaches' minds. He was the first editor and publisher of "Swimming World" magazine.

geochuck
October 5th, 2007, 11:41 AM
It was Coach Robert Kiphuth who convinced me that I should continue swimming after my disappointment after I was sick in 1952.

When I go to Mexico I am going to do all of the exercises in his booklet and make a short video clip of each and post them. I think there were approx. 20.

If any one has that booklet I would like a copy. They were on 8.5 x 11 sheets of paper. Stick figure drawings with explanation of how to do them. I think I know them all by memory and with a very slight variation they are still acceptable for all to do.

tomtopo
November 2nd, 2007, 09:00 PM
Simply a fantastic post. Thank you. I'm trying to download the powerpoint and present it to my colleagues. Thank you

Ripple
November 3rd, 2007, 09:33 AM
I work at a computer all day long and do some of these stretches - or very similar ones - to offset the tight chest and front of shoulder muscles that result from cad drafting. My massage therapists have even recommended some of them. I'll have to rethink that advice now, perhaps I'll just try to figure out which muscles are opposing and strengthen them instead.
When I was training for the Swimtrek tour, their training advice also advised against stretching before swimming.

3strokes
November 4th, 2007, 08:21 AM
Good Article.
To me the most telling part is (see attached picture) which confirms George's affirmations all along.




Here is something new (the document states 9/24/07) from the USA Swimming site by George T. Edelman, MPT, OCS, MTC: Shoulder Stretching: Helpful or Harmful? (Accompanying PowerPoint) (http://usaswimming.org/USASWeb/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=451&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en)



Naturally, according to George, I've been doing the exact wrong exercises. &^@#.

3strokes
November 4th, 2007, 08:30 AM
I loosen up my shoulders then do slow arm circles, forward and backward.

This is what I've been doing for years.

25 years ago when I swam competitively (and our starts were the old style flat ones) I hurt my right RC on a cold start. I felt/heard something snap. It wasn't a race so even though my arms on entry where extended in a streamline position, they were loose and the left arm was kind of snapped up (back) almost like a whiplash effect. Hours later not even cortisone shots would relieve the pain. It took me some months to get back to normal.

However back then our coach's belief was not to stretch cold muscles at all. So I used to (and still) warm up those RCs like you Slowswim: Slow arm circles. However since I am a freestyler I start with the back circles (figuring that If I were to hurt any muscle sub-group warming up, it might as well be the "wrong" group) then continue this loosening warmup with forward circles.

gull
November 4th, 2007, 09:06 AM
25 years ago when I swam competitively (and our starts were the old style flat ones) I hurt my right RC on a cold start. I felt/heard something snap. It wasn't a race so even though my arms on entry where extended in a streamline position, they were loose and the left arm was kind of snapped up (back) almost like a whiplash effect. Hours later not even cortisone shots would relieve the pain. It took me some months to get back to normal.

I had a similar experience at my first Masters meet four years ago. It happened during warmup. The MRI was negative, but I suspected a small tear of the labrum. My physical therapist incorporated scapular stabilization exercises into my home RC program. My understanding is that the muscles that stabilize the scapula (shoulder blade) need to be able to react almost instantaneously to sudden and changing forces (diving, butterfly, even catching a baseball) to prevent forward movement of the head of the humerus, which results in impingement and injury. The only "stretching" exercises I do are a few gentle arm circles before I get in the water. Interestingly, after four years of rehab I don't hear/feel popping and clicking anymore when I do this.

geochuck
November 4th, 2007, 09:12 AM
Do you think loosening up exercises are stretching exercises - I don't think they are if you do them correctley. I say most of those little things you and I had used for years are not stretching exercises. I eliminated the stretches from that photo copy we received from Kiphuth in the late 40s. There were a few that are considered dangerous for swimmers now. Especially the ones that said bounce the arms back twice.

gull
November 4th, 2007, 12:13 PM
Do you think loosening up exercises are stretching exercises

I believe arm circles are considered a form of dynamic (as opposed to, say, static or ballistic) stretching.

Slowswim
November 5th, 2007, 04:58 PM
I believe arm circles are considered a form of dynamic (as opposed to, say, static or ballistic) stretching.

I view them more as a warm up. Much like a very very easy swim; just to get the blood flowing to the muscles and joints about to be used.