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Allen Stark
October 4th, 2007, 12:41 PM
I just posted,slightly tongue in cheek,that changing the breaststroke rule so ones head can go underwater was the best change ever.It got me thinking what was the best rule change.(someone else can do a worst change poll.)

JimRude
October 4th, 2007, 12:48 PM
Allen -

Considering that I was DQ'd for that (head under) more than once "way back when", I might actually have to agree with that... along with "shoulders level at the turn".

art_z
October 4th, 2007, 12:49 PM
I still cannot swim breastroke without this always being on my mind. old habits die hard

The Fortress
October 4th, 2007, 12:51 PM
Flipping over on your stomach for the backstroke turn. Awesome change from the old bucket spin turn.

geochuck
October 4th, 2007, 12:52 PM
There have been many best rule changes. Regarding breaststroke allowing swimmers to swim underwater all the way helped breaststrokers that came along after that change. I also believe the change helped swimmers who swim all strokes learn more about streamlining.

Of course all the changes that happen have improved swimming.

One of the greatest changes although may be not a rule change the wave buster lane ropes.

art_z
October 4th, 2007, 01:24 PM
as life long backstroker, I'm not a fan of the "new" backstroke turn for 3 reasons:

1) the gray area involved in whether someone is or is not doing the turn by the rules (single motion arm pull, no kicking, etc). it was cut and dried before, either your hand touched the wall, or it didn't.

2) one less skill required to master the stroke. now all it is is a freestyle turn. before it required you to learn how to turn properly and to practice it. now you just flop over and do a freestyle turn.

3) large drops in times for backstroke events for a reason that has nothing to do with better training techniques or stroke improvement. You might as well let breastrokers and flyers do flip turns now too. The old turn worked great, I honestly saw no need for a new one.

Rob Copeland
October 4th, 2007, 01:38 PM
Art, this is the BEST Rule Change Ever thread. As Allen mentioned “someone else can do a worst change”

Best –

Freestyle – allowing any part of the body to touch the wall, enabling flip turns

Breaststroke – allowing over water recovery thus creating the butterfly and subsequently making butterfly its own stroke

15 Meter rule – saving any number of swimmers brain damage due to hypoxia

Costume rules that allowed goggles

USMS Beer relay rules

The Fortress
October 4th, 2007, 01:50 PM
Costume rules that allowed goggles


And FS Pros/FS II, etc.!

Also like:

rollover turn on the 100 IM

the fact that we get to swim the 100 IM

CreamPuff
October 4th, 2007, 02:51 PM
Flip turns on the fly!
At least I could take advantage of that in the 50!
200 - not so much. :rofl:

Flow Phaser
October 4th, 2007, 03:19 PM
Speaking of which....

Having recently returned, what are the current rules in breastroke re:

Heels breaking water as head goes under? (mine kind of tend to if I don't watch it)

A single dolphin off the wall? (I thought I'd heard that had changed)

Thanks in advance,
:fish2:

Allen Stark
October 4th, 2007, 03:36 PM
No problem with the heels breaking the water,unless it is followed by a downward dolphin kick. One downward dolphin kick is allowed in the pullout,after the pull is begun.It must be followed by a breaststroke kick.

Flow Phaser
October 4th, 2007, 07:35 PM
Thanks Allen. I applied these in my workout today. Not bothering about the heels certainly makes the oscillation aspect feel better.

:wave:

Glider
October 4th, 2007, 09:07 PM
The one-handed touch/turn in breaststroke...oh wait...it's coming soon. It started with uneven shoulders being legal and, well, there's just no good reason for a two-handed touch. :p

Or we could go Kristina's idea and do flip turns on BR, too. Talk about a lung-buster: 200 yard breast with seven flip turns and pullouts:drown:

smontanaro
October 4th, 2007, 10:03 PM
Or we could go Kristina's idea and do flip turns on BR, too. Talk about a lung-buster: 200 yard breast with seven flip turns and pullouts:drown:

I don't think it would be much of a problem. If there wasn't a 15m rule in backstroke a 200yd backstroke would be just eight 25yd shooters with flip turns. I suspect by now the only breaths they'd take would be right before the turns.

The Fortress
October 5th, 2007, 12:33 AM
The one-handed touch/turn in breaststroke...oh wait...it's coming soon. It started with uneven shoulders being legal and, well, there's just no good reason for a two-handed touch. :p

Or we could go Kristina's idea and do flip turns on BR, too. Talk about a lung-buster: 200 yard breast with seven flip turns and pullouts:drown:


I'm all for a speedy quick rule change on the 2 handed BR and fly turns and finishes. I advocated this in the "You are the Rules Dictator" thread. But I'm not so sure it's happening real soon. Change is always at a snail's pace.

Skip must be talking about non-masters ...

david.margrave
October 5th, 2007, 01:00 AM
What's a rollover turn on the 100 IM? I just looked in the rule book and it doesn't have an exception for the 100 IM, the back-to-breast turn in the IM has to start with touching the wall while on your back.

The beer relay sounds fun. How often do they have this at meets?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z7flgeNKk4

CreamPuff
October 5th, 2007, 08:04 AM
The one-handed touch/turn in breaststroke...oh wait...it's coming soon. It started with uneven shoulders being legal and, well, there's just no good reason for a two-handed touch. :p

Or we could go Kristina's idea and do flip turns on BR, too. Talk about a lung-buster: 200 yard breast with seven flip turns and pullouts:drown:

Amen Glider!! Either 1 handed turns on BR/ FLY or the flip turns. I swam with some guys at Swim Atlanta where we were all REALLY competitive in practice and we all were doing flip turns on the fly and breast. It was terribly fun for me at least b/c being younger I could hold my breath better. 'Course it's a terrible habit to get into and increases your chances of DQing in a meet. But darn, it makes for a furiously fast IM set.

Swimmer Bill
October 5th, 2007, 09:25 AM
I have two sets of "best" & "worst" - one from personal experience, and the other looking at the sport more globally.

Personal:

Best = backstroke flip turn because it helped me avoid becoming tangled-up on the wall as I often was with the old turn.

Worst = backstroke feet flat on the wall for yards rather than toes curled over the gutter, because it killed my start and my 50 time went from a 26 to a 28.

Global:

Best = freestyle flip turns, as Rob mentioned (above)

Worst = the Kitajima breaststroke rule.

:bolt:

The Fortress
October 5th, 2007, 09:35 AM
What's a rollover turn on the 100 IM? I just looked in the rule book and it doesn't have an exception for the 100 IM, the back-to-breast turn in the IM has to start with touching the wall while on your back.

You still have to touch the wall with your hand while on your back. But instead of doing an open turn, you can substitute the roll over turn. The quickest way to do it, and one I just learned thanks to Jeff Commings urging, is to do a lunging backstroke finish and flip directly backwards in a back somersault type motion. Your feet hit the wall and you push off and go right into the breaststroke pull out. You need only make certain that you are not "past vertical toward the breast" on the backstroke finish part. You also have to have some lung capacity for this turn. I think George provided some links to this turn on another recent thread where we were discussing it, but they all showed the rollover spin turn which is another variant. Not that many masters seem to do it, and I haven't tried it in a meet yet, but it's fun and speedy.

That's why I like the idea of one handed turns too. More speed.

I'm not sure about flip turns on fly, (S)he-Man. I need that breath at the turn to maximize SDKs.

smontanaro
October 5th, 2007, 10:27 AM
Aren't most rules changes made to make judging events less subjective? I attended the mandatory parent/player meeting for my son's high school hockey team the other day. One of the presenters was a long-time hockey ref. I certainly got the impression that most/all rules changes in hockey are to reduce the subjectivity of calls (make it easier for the ref to make the right call in a fast-paced environment).

That said, the Kitajima rule seems to fit in that category. Some amount of dolphin kick is natural during the pull. Allowing it means there's no gray area. I'm not so sure about the backstroke flip turn. That seems like it would be harder for the judge to call (there are more elements to a correct flip turn) than the previous rule (touch on your back, leave on your back).

Comments?

Skip Montanaro

poolraat
October 5th, 2007, 11:29 AM
I'm not so sure about the backstroke flip turn. That seems like it would be harder for the judge to call (there are more elements to a correct flip turn) than the previous rule (touch on your back, leave on your back).

Comments?

Skip Montanaro

There are always questions about judging the backstroke turn. At the meets I officiate, it seems that a large part of the officials' meeting is spent discussing this turn and how to be consistant in judging it. It is especially difficult with the new swimmwers who are still learning it and the older, more experienced swimmers who are pushing the envelope on every turn.

stillwater
October 5th, 2007, 12:43 PM
Why was the backstroke rule changed? It is called backstroke, not mostly backstroke.

Glider
October 5th, 2007, 04:11 PM
Rules...we don't need no stinkin' rules:mooning:

Just don't watch my BR turns too closely. I sometimes have a phantom two handed touch. Kind of like a phantom tag of the bag at second base in baseball...Close enough:bolt:


I'm all for a speedy quick rule change on the 2 handed BR and fly turns and finishes. I advocated this in the "You are the Rules Dictator" thread. But I'm not so sure it's happening real soon. Change is always at a snail's pace.

Skip must be talking about non-masters ...

Allen Stark
October 5th, 2007, 08:37 PM
On the worst rule ever thread someone said the no false start rule. I think that may be the best rule ever.First I hated it when there was a false start.I get very focused for the race and the instant of the start and then to have to climb out dry off and get focused again was a distraction. Second,I can just focus on swimming after the start instead of looking to make sure everyone is still swimming. In breaststroke many times if there was a false start I'd be underwater for the recall signal and sometimes the recall rope was not dropped.Third it speeds up the meet.Forth,It lessens cheating. With the old rule there was frequently someone who would try to jump just before the beep to get an unfair advantage.

poolraat
October 5th, 2007, 08:45 PM
On the worst rule ever thread someone said the no false start rule. I think that may be the best rule ever.First I hated it when there was a false start.I get very focused for the race and the instant of the start and then to have to climb out dry off and get focused again was a distraction. Second,I can just focus on swimming after the start instead of looking to make sure everyone is still swimming. In breaststroke many times if there was a false start I'd be underwater for the recall signal and sometimes the recall rope was not dropped.Third it speeds up the meet.Forth,It lessens cheating. With the old rule there was frequently someone who would try to jump just before the beep to get an unfair advantage.

Allen, Read my comments on that thread.

geochuck
October 6th, 2007, 08:52 AM
The false start was a strategy to keep every one on the block and not moving. It used to be 1-2-3 and you are out.

3strokes
October 6th, 2007, 01:14 PM
With the old rule there was frequently someone who would try to jump just before the beep to get an unfair advantage.


That was called (in Egypt, at least) "stealing" the start. Some swimmers were very good at anticipating the starters' signals and managed to get a jump on the others while still staying within the rules of the time, i.e., feet in contact with the block up to the whistle or gun. I believe even this aspect of the rule has been changed now, i.e., body must not be "moving" when the start signal is given.