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ande
October 5th, 2007, 02:21 AM
Jones Reportedly Admits to Steroid Use
http://sports.aol.com/story/ar/_a/jones-reportedly-admits-to-steroid-use/20071004180309990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001

should there be any consequences?

Swimmer Bill
October 5th, 2007, 07:42 AM
They should put her in a room with a laptop that can only connect to the USMS Discussion Forums.

:angel:

Just kidding, of course!

:bouncing:

CreamPuff
October 5th, 2007, 08:13 AM
Arg. This is not helping me in my quest to become "green" again. :cry:

bud
October 5th, 2007, 09:15 AM
... should there be any consequences?
sounds like they're already on the way:

Jones said in her letter that she faced up to six months in jail and would be sentenced in three months, according to the newspaper.

The admission also could cost Jones the five medals she won in Sydney, where she was the most celebrated female athlete of the games.

add a heap of humiliation and public scorn on top of that and i'd say that is pretty consequential.

sounds like they're going for blood:

Darryl Seibel, spokesman for the U.S. Olympic Committee, declined comment on whether Jones would lose her medals until legal proceedings are completed.

"If these reports are true," Seibel said, "it is an admission of responsibility from an athlete who owed her sport and the Olympic movement much better."

Seibel added that "our position on doping is unequivocal. Doping is cheating, and under no circumstance will it be tolerated. If an athlete cheats, they deserve to pay the price for their action."

and if that ain't enough:

The Washington Post also reported that, in her letter, Jones said she lied about a $25,000 check given to her by Montgomery, who pleaded guilty in New York in April as part of a criminal scheme to cash millions of dollars worth of stolen or forged checks. He has yet to be sentenced.

i definitely would not want to be in her shoes now.

...

3strokes
October 6th, 2007, 03:36 AM
They should put her in a room with a laptop that can only connect to the USMS Discussion Forums.

:angel:

Just kidding, of course!

:bouncing:

She should be punished, not "rewarded".
Are we (Forumites) modest or what?

geochuck
October 6th, 2007, 09:06 AM
May be she was dupped into dopping.

She was a dope for dopping.

Dickering in dope is dumb.

newmastersswimmer
October 6th, 2007, 11:18 AM
Arg. This is not helping me in my quest to become "green" again. :cry:

** Warning ** temporary time out from the current thread topic:

I just wanted to chime in for a second and comment on your cool new avatar Christina! very psychedelic! :wine::wine:

** Now back to the regularly scheduled thread topic **

CreamPuff
October 6th, 2007, 02:47 PM
Thanks Jim!

Thought I'd get me a pretty pair of shoes to help me "walk the walk" along with my tendency to sometimes just "talk the talk." :thhbbb:

Hope you and your family have been well. I think of you guys often. Your avatar is much cooler than mine!

Now off for a juicy burger and some :drink: at the Vortex with the hubby!

newmastersswimmer
October 7th, 2007, 08:45 PM
Thanks Jim!

Thought I'd get me a pretty pair of shoes to help me "walk the walk" along with my tendency to sometimes just "talk the talk." :thhbbb:

Hope you and your family have been well. I think of you guys often. Your avatar is much cooler than mine!

Now off for a juicy burger and some :drink: at the Vortex with the hubby!


Thanks Kristina! We have been well for the most part....I certainly can't complain. I hope you enjoyed that burger and brew...sounds pretty good to me! You ought to come over to the dark side and join us over on Facebook (like so many others have already done).

Now To stay on topic: Yaeh steroids are pretty bad....This will surely cost her some of her Olympic medals you would think. Pretty sad stuff IMO!

TomBrooklyn
October 8th, 2007, 12:21 PM
It's a tragic tale. Her life will improve if she choses to be honest in more things from now on.

aquageek
October 8th, 2007, 12:30 PM
It's a tragic tale. Her life will improve if she choses to be honest in more things from now on.

Tragic? What the heck is tragic about this?

The Fortress
October 8th, 2007, 12:58 PM
Tragic? What the heck is tragic about this?

Nothing.

Except possibly the continued stain on the sport.

Rob Copeland
October 8th, 2007, 01:33 PM
Tragic? What the heck is tragic about this?From Wikipedia – “In a figurative sense a tragedy (from Classical Greek τραγωδία, "song for the goat") is any event with a sad and unfortunate outcome,”

This seems like a goat song to me.

Stillhere
October 8th, 2007, 01:42 PM
I think the tragedy is found in the fact that clean competitors were deprived of their time of glory and recognition by a deceitful drug taking cheater. All of the years of hard work and dedication were robbed by illegal drug taking and that to me is tragic. I will never be able to get my mind around how Shirley Babashaw must have felt after the E. German cheaters stole 6 of her gold medals with state run drug programs. That is the tragedy in IMHO.

Stillhere
October 8th, 2007, 04:41 PM
Jones returns 2000 Olympic Medals today....

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/news?slug=reu-jonesdc&prov=reuters&type=lgns

The IOC said they will now strip her of all records and erase her name from the games.

ViveBene
October 8th, 2007, 10:41 PM
Person who came in second in 100 meters in 2000 and who would presumably now move up in standings was Katerina Thanou, the same person who failed to show up for a drug test 24 hours before her meet at 2004 Olympics in Greece, alleging a motorcycle accident, and whose coach was later found with bags and bags of steroids. (Hope I didn't miss any details.) Here I quote from another site: "Ms Thanou just completed a two year suspension for a drug related matters."

The baton passes from one drug user to, quite possibly, another?

Regards, VB

Tree
October 10th, 2007, 01:13 AM
Someone mentioned WU Yanyan earlier, which reminded me something about another Chinese woman swimmer: QIAN Hong, the 100 meters butterfly gold medalist in 1992 Olympics. She was among the we Chinese called FIVE GOLDEN FLOWERS(four of them won in the 92 Olympics) back in the early 90's. She is now doing some part time swimming commentator job here and opened a blog. Last year I came across her blog and found many blogviewers confronted her with the question of whether or not the so-called FIVE GOLDEN FLOWERS taking drugs(please note they and the governing body of Chinese swimming association never officially admit it despite various wide spread reports both domestically and internationally), to which she did not give a direct answer. SORRY I just re-read her blog and found she said in another section that SHE DID NOT USE DRUGS DURING HER 14 YEARS OF SWIMMING CAREER. she said people who asked this question already have their mindset and her words would not be trusted anyhow and all she could say was that the history was history nothing could be changed. She even mentioned Thorpe by asking if some speculations from some source earlier of that year suggesting Thorpe taking drugs could change the fact that Thorpe was a world champion(to be honest I did not quite get her logic of relating drug issues with champion title here). She then went on to claim that Austrilians and Americans would not slander their heroes like Chinese did. She also made a strange analogy that asking her this drug taken question was like asking whether or not the Allies have won in WW2.

Please be noted I translated some of her words from her blog and I might get something wrong.

Here is the URL:http://blog.sina.com.cn/qianhongblog.

Tree
October 10th, 2007, 01:48 AM
Well, actually I am going to translate the whole section here. Again I cannot guarantee that every English word I use grasps its original meaning in Chinese.

In one section, QIAN Hong said:
Many people asked me whether or not the five golden flowers have taken drugs or not. It is understandable that people aksed. But I cannot answer it YES or NOT because the anwser is already in your mind. All I can say is that history cannot be changed. Like the hot discussed topic earlier on whether or not the great Austrilian swimmer Thorpe is clean. Did he use drugs? Can all these speculations change the fact that he is a world champion and Olympic champion? Probably soon people would come out and say Phelps. Every record in sports is unimagineable(not sure if this word is best suited). Why does everybody try to find out how this record is produced? Unimagineable is unimagineable and un-debatable(?). Only by following the most basic principles and keeping working hard and overcoming numourous difficulties can a person achieve unimagineable result. I do not think Austrilians and Americans would slander their heroes. This sort of question is like whether or not the Allies won in WW2. Let me ask if there exist a drug in the world that a swimmer after taking it would start faster, turn better and have better techniques than other? the capabilities of a swimmer can be satisfied with a drug?

In another section, SHE SAID:
I HAVE NOT USED DRUGS DURING MY 14 SWIMMING CAREER.

Again, I am not a native english speaker. I might distort what she said. But those of you who can read Chinese can visit her blog mention above and at page three she said those words.

geochuck
October 10th, 2007, 02:19 AM
Tree I opened that site through google and used the google translator chinese to english. She seems to have some great pictures of some out standing persons on there. I will get into the blog and read the whole thing later. Tree if you open it in english you can copy and paste what she said. The google translation may not be complete but may be pretty good. I have read some of the articles and the english seems to be pretty accurate.

Tree
October 10th, 2007, 02:24 AM
Tree I opened that site through google and used the google translator chinese to english. She seems to have some great pictures of some oustanding persons on there. I will get into the blog and read the whole thing later.

Yes. She was a Olympic Champion. And you can imagine how government will treat them here because they have those useless glories. Basically they can have everything they want once they become a champion, let alone meet and make friends with some sports stars and film stars.

Tree
October 10th, 2007, 02:31 AM
Tree if you open it in english you can copy and paste what she said. The google translation may not be complete but may be pretty good. I have read some of the articles and the english seems to be pretty accurate.

I copied the Chinese context and let Google do the job. Here is what comes out:

Many netizens have asked me five times, have to eat stimulants? Some people concerned about this issue is understandable, but I can not answer yes or not, because the answer has long been ingrained in your mind. I can only say that all of that will not change history. As a former Australian swimming gotten worse in the end Thorpe's innocence? Whether he has taken doping? All these doubts he can change the world champion, Olympic champion the facts? Probably for a period of time people will come out and say how kind Phelps. Sports are incredible record every one, we have to find out why he's the reason? "Inconceivable" that is not thought, the debate should not only depend do with the most basic reason, is not afraid of difficulties and to persevere to get unexpected results. I think the Australian people not to defame their heroes, the Americans do not find a way to become defame their heroes. Such problems seem now to discuss our coalition victory in the Second World War? His victory as they should be. A doping mentioned people will like it exciting, how the world is there a drug, eating will proceed faster than others, turned reasonable than others, other than technical perfection, swimming athletes must have the capacity through a drug to meet?

geochuck
October 10th, 2007, 02:46 AM
Tree it is not a perfect translation but I am sure if people think a little they will understand.

It is like here in Canada when I talk to a french speaking Canadian I have to think in French. In french they say (english translation) Close the light, which means - Turn off the light.

Tree
October 10th, 2007, 02:50 AM
Tree it is not a perfect translation but I am sure if people think a little they will understand.

It is like here in Canada when I talk to a french speaking Canadian I have to think in French. In french they say (english translation) Close the light, which means - Turn off the light.

Yes. I understand it.

The reason I put the Google translation here is that I want to evidence that I did not misinterprete her words.

Stillhere
October 10th, 2007, 08:57 AM
QIAN Hong was about as clean as Michele Smith, Jones and Landis....
She couldn't tell the truth if she tried. As to the WW 11 remark....that is akin to the moron terrorist President of Iran saying the holocaust never happened.
These cheaters are so twisted they think all they have to do is say it and that makes it true. They tell the lie so many times it becomes reality in their twisted minds.

TomBrooklyn
October 10th, 2007, 09:41 AM
This whole drug thing is a mess. It has infiltrated every sport and competition. One of the sad things is that some of the drugs athletes take probably have some adverse health effects which is on it's face at odds with the concept being in the best possible physical condition.

Maybe two catagories of competition are going to need to be started in every sport, the doped version and the natural version. Body Building has gone this route. http://www.naturalbodybuilding.com/ Natural bodybuilders build some great physiques that are arguably the most attractive and pleasing, but they don't achieve the freakishly huge muscle mass the steroid users can.

geochuck
October 10th, 2007, 11:29 AM
The girl did not deny taking drugs if I read it right. The Chinese have what I call a flowery way of putting things. She says most people believe she took drugs and she is not going to argue about that. I did not see where she denied anything.

It so happens they were in the war as others were. They fought for many years before Canada and others entered the battle. Some countries were late into the conflict but did their share. World War 2 has been over many years now and we are nearly all friends (not quite).

She even Mentions Thorpe and drugs, and suspicions. I bring up Carl Lewis and suspicions.

The problem is, too many druggers in sports. Should we just accept it or is it possible to do anything about it.


QIAN Hong was about as clean as Michele Smith, Jones and Landis....
She couldn't tell the truth if she tried. As to the WW 11 remark....that is akin to the moron terrorist President of Iran saying the holocaust never happened.
These cheaters are so twisted they think all they have to do is say it and that makes it true. They tell the lie so many times it becomes reality in their twisted minds.

ALM
October 10th, 2007, 04:34 PM
Tree
Active Member
Yadong Li
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Beijing
Posts: 63


Tree,

I see that you are in Beijing. We Americans would all be interested in hearing your perspective on the upcoming Olympics. Are the people of Beijing excited to be hosting the Olympics? Do you see a lot of preparation? Will average citizens be able to attend the events?

Anna Lea

Tree
October 10th, 2007, 08:39 PM
The girl did not deny taking drugs if I read it right.

No, George, She DID deny taking drugs. At page three of her blog, the same page where she said those words, there is another section at the end of which she explicitly said she did not take drugs.you can also find the section here :http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4c83120b010008d7.html).
the last sentence of the first paragraph.

geochuck
October 10th, 2007, 08:53 PM
Thanks Tree

Has it ever been proven that she took drugs? Or did she have a test that tested positive?

Or was it that some another swimmer tested positive, so everyone is a drug user?

Tree
October 10th, 2007, 09:28 PM
Thanks Tree

Has it ever been proven that she took drugs? Or did she have a test that tested positive?

Or was it that some another swimmer tested positive, so everyone is a drug user?

To my limited knowledge she and her fellow swimmers who got gold in 92 Olympics were never proved to have taken drugs. I was a little boy back then and knew nothing about swimming. All the knowledge I have was obtained between 95-98 after the 92 Olympics through some speculations from some sports correspondents revealing a large scale of drug use in swimming and woman weightlifting in China in early 90's, from some rumors I heard about their body shape and strong muscles(in particular I read people quoting a very famous Chinese chess player said he was told by some inside source that woman swimmers in early 90's took drugs). Myself never saw them swimming. So I did not know how they looked like. One arguement I saw frequently being used by speculations is how to explain why Chinese woman swimmers can make such a big breakthrough in such a large scale during such a short period and then just dissapeared. The woman's breaststroke gold medalist in Athens, LUO Xuejuan(she is a very straightforward girl) caused big controversy some point between 2000 when she swam in the most important national sports event held probably every four years. Right after she got out of the pool she said in front of millions televison views that the pool of water behind her was not clean. And the thing is I do not think there is ever going to be an independent investigation. So truth will never be known unless people involved speak out. And that is very unlikely to happen.

Tree
October 10th, 2007, 09:34 PM
Thanks Tree
Or was it that some another swimmer tested positive, so everyone is a drug user?

I got your logic. I need to check and find out what caused people to speculate.

Tree
October 11th, 2007, 04:46 AM
Tree,

I see that you are in Beijing. We Americans would all be interested in hearing your perspective on the upcoming Olympics. Are the people of Beijing excited to be hosting the Olympics? Do you see a lot of preparation? Will average citizens be able to attend the events?

Anna Lea

Anna,

My perspective on the 2008 Olympics is that it is definitely a great opportunity for both Chinese and people from all over the world to know more about each other. It is going to be the start point for more deeply inter-active process between China and the world for the years followed. Nothing before has ever drawn such a huge attention towards China as Olympics is going to do. People who are already interested in China may find something(Chinese people, culture, tradition etc.) more interesting and may carry on explore them in the future. People who know nothing or little about China may begin to show their interest. People who do not like China may find some changes taking place and start to look at China frow a new perspective or they still find nothing to be liked of and walk away. The same thing will happen to Chinese as well when they recieve people from all over the world. No matter how it goes, one thing, I think is the most important, is that a much more REAL China will be presented to you(I cannot say a complete REAL China because every host wants to show their good side rather than the bad side. SO the image you see in Olympics might be different from other ordinary days). You may find in some way China is better than you thought and in some way it is worse, you may find its people lovely or you may find the opposite, all of which will help you see the whole picture of this nation and understand more about it. All of those have been taking place since China opened its door in the late 1970's. And Olympics will deepen it. In a word it will be an opportunity for promoting mutual understandings between people.

I do not know how all the people of Beijing is exicted or not. Myself feels nothing special. Some even object it due to various reasons. But the general mood seems to be excited about it.

Yes. A lot of preparations are undergoing right now. The construction of stadiums is making steady progress(I actually drive through the roads where the main stadium locates on my way to work and back. I can see the progress), the volunteers organization pick up the qualified people from the whole country, some sports events took place to test the facilities, English translation of Chinese road names etc being corrected, some metro lines being built, the price of public transport cut down significantly to encourage people to use bus and metro when they travel, many communities give English lessons to its residence so people here can help foreigners, 3G telecom network is said to be built before Olympics(which I have some doubts), etc. But I've also heard some corruption already found in relation to some real estate projects surrounding the main stadium. One of the senior government officials has been dismissed from his position. I think more corruptions will be revealed after Olympics.

Yes. Average citizens are able to attend. What I hear is that you need to submit a form when you purchase the ticket. Then there is going to be a random draw like lottery to decide who can get the ticket.

fanstone
October 11th, 2007, 11:14 AM
If any reading this might be going to Beijing, get in contact with Tree (yadong li). He is a wonderful host and person. I know from personally meeting him in May. He showed me all over the city. Thanks again, Tree, billy fanstone

Stillhere
October 12th, 2007, 11:08 AM
One of the main reasons China is very suspect regarding illegal drug use is the coaches and swimmers got caught going into Australia with huge amounts of them prior to the Olympics there....

She may not openly have denied doing drugs, but her competition was a denial in itself.

craiglll@yahoo.com
October 12th, 2007, 03:35 PM
Anna,

My perspective on the 2008 Olympics is that it is definitely a great opportunity for both Chinese and people from all over the world to know more about each other. It is going to be the start point for more deeply inter-active process between China and the world for the years followed. Nothing before has ever drawn such a huge attention towards China as Olympics is going to do. People who are already interested in China may find something(Chinese people, culture, tradition etc.) more interesting and may carry on explore them in the future. People who know nothing or little about China may begin to show their interest. People who do not like China may find some changes taking place and start to look at China frow a new perspective or they still find nothing to be liked of and walk away. The same thing will happen to Chinese as well when they recieve people from all over the world. No matter how it goes, one thing, I think is the most important, is that a much more REAL China will be presented to you(I cannot say a complete REAL China because every host wants to show their good side rather than the bad side. SO the image you see in Olympics might be different from other ordinary days). You may find in some way China is better than you thought and in some way it is worse, you may find its people lovely or you may find the opposite, all of which will help you see the whole picture of this nation and understand more about it. All of those have been taking place since China opened its door in the late 1970's. And Olympics will deepen it. In a word it will be an opportunity for promoting mutual understandings between people.

I do not know how all the people of Beijing is exicted or not. Myself feels nothing special. Some even object it due to various reasons. But the general mood seems to be excited about it.

Yes. A lot of preparations are undergoing right now. The construction of stadiums is making steady progress(I actually drive through the roads where the main stadium locates on my way to work and back. I can see the progress), the volunteers organization pick up the qualified people from the whole country, some sports events took place to test the facilities, English translation of Chinese road names etc being corrected, some metro lines being built, the price of public transport cut down significantly to encourage people to use bus and metro when they travel, many communities give English lessons to its residence so people here can help foreigners, 3G telecom network is said to be built before Olympics(which I have some doubts), etc. But I've also heard some corruption already found in relation to some real estate projects surrounding the main stadium. One of the senior government officials has been dismissed from his position. I think more corruptions will be revealed after Olympics.

Yes. Average citizens are able to attend. What I hear is that you need to submit a form when you purchase the ticket. Then there is going to be a random draw like lottery to decide who can get the ticket.

Tree,

First, it is too bad that the government is destroying many very old neighborhoods ad moving people out of homes where their families have lived for an extremely long time.

Second, I really wonder if the Chinese govenment can take all of the world looking at them? I remember what happened after the students protested. I went and stood infornt of the embassy in Washington, DC to protest the way the govenrment treated the protesters. One of the great photographs ever is the man standing infront of the tank.

And finally, the way the government has handled the lead toys and beef that was contaminated exported from China. The government offical concerning the beef killed himself and the government has sentenced some officials to long terms in prison and death about the toys. I believe the gentleman who was sentenced to death abut the toys is having his case reheard.

Ripple
October 14th, 2007, 07:29 PM
I think the tragedy is found in the fact that clean competitors were deprived of their time of glory and recognition by a deceitful drug taking cheater. All of the years of hard work and dedication were robbed by illegal drug taking and that to me is tragic. I will never be able to get my mind around how Shirley Babashaw must have felt after the E. German cheaters stole 6 of her gold medals with state run drug programs. That is the tragedy in IMHO.

It was equally tragic for some of the East German athletes, many of whom were put on these drugs from a very young age, were assured that they were only being given vitamins, and who have since died young from strange cancers and liver ailments.

Stillhere
October 15th, 2007, 10:13 AM
Yes, many were young when they first started taking these drugs. I watched a very interesting interview with one of the E. German swimmers 10 years ago and she said they all knew shortly after they started taking these drugs that they were not vitamins. To say they did not know is ridicules in my thinking.

Ripple
October 15th, 2007, 08:26 PM
Yes, many were young when they first started taking these drugs. I watched a very interesting interview with one of the E. German swimmers 10 years ago and she said they all knew shortly after they started taking these drugs that they were not vitamins. To say they did not know is ridicules in my thinking.
Well, it was East Germany... I don't think they were really given a choice in the matter. You probably did as you were told and hoped it worked out for the best. Some of the parents tried to intervene and were told it was none of their business.

Tree
December 19th, 2007, 01:18 AM
Tree,

First, it is too bad that the government is destroying many very old neighborhoods ad moving people out of homes where their families have lived for an extremely long time.

Second, I really wonder if the Chinese govenment can take all of the world looking at them? I remember what happened after the students protested. I went and stood infornt of the embassy in Washington, DC to protest the way the govenrment treated the protesters. One of the great photographs ever is the man standing infront of the tank.

And finally, the way the government has handled the lead toys and beef that was contaminated exported from China. The government offical concerning the beef killed himself and the government has sentenced some officials to long terms in prison and death about the toys. I believe the gentleman who was sentenced to death abut the toys is having his case reheard.

Craig,

1, I do not know which projects you are referring to. To my knowledge I never heard of Beijing government force people out of their homes to make way for the Olympics. But I am pretty sure that some people's houses in Beijing were demolished for some real estate projects . As far as I know most of them get compensation from the real estate developer and agree to have their houses demolished. Actually I bought a flat from a family who were compensated so well that they were offered by the government or developer at least 2 seperate flats in Beijing in exchange for their original flat. Considering the real estate price right now, that is a big compensation. I am indeed aware of the emotion side of having your home demolished. That I cannot comment because it is a individual thing. That said I am also sure that other places across the country, especially in the country side, there are indeed many peole being forced to move out their homes and make way for industrial projects.

2, I DO appreciate what you did for the student protesting in Tian an men. What happened there was no doubt a tragedy. But please do not mix the government and the people here into one thing. government is one thing. People is another. Being a citizen of a group-dictatorship -country does not mean its people cannot enjoy the Olympics or draw attention from all over the world. You can say that government takes credit that should not be given. But I do not think that the ordinary people's enjoyment of a world event should be deprived just because the government.

3, I do not know much about the contaminated toy/food story. I will make a general statement which is rather directed to the general practise of those manufacturers than the case you mentioned : I DO NOT have any sympathy towards those manufacturers or officials who get involved. I believe the contaminated food issue has been in my country for around 10 years. It first emerged as a domestic issue which never really caught any attention from the monitoring agency or government authorities. People here,especially in small towns like where I come from, are having contaminated food stuff, like pork, for the past 10 years. Government never really do something to it until similar thing happens to Chinese product in America(by the way, a big thank you). So why is it taking so long for a already common-seen wrong-doings to get exposed in a large scale and finally draw a little bit serious attention from the government? Simple. because no one really cares about ordinary people's food as long as they make profits or get promoted in the hierarch system inside the government. The case you mentioned, I believe, is just a tip of the iceberg. Whatever the punishment they got is fine to me because what they did really affect millions of millions people. Of couse there are innocent manufactures out there. But very few.

TO be honest I do not know what point you are trying make. And I even made a such long reply. Please forgive me for bringing up this old post.

FindingMyInnerFish
December 20th, 2007, 08:01 AM
Craig,

1, I do not know which projects you are referring to. To my knowledge I never heard of Beijing government force people out of their homes to make way for the Olympics. But I am pretty sure that some people's houses in Beijing were demolished for some real estate projects . As far as I know most of them get compensation from the real estate developer and agree to have their houses demolished. Actually I bought a flat from a family who were compensated so well that they were offered by the government or developer at least 2 seperate flats in Beijing in exchange for their original flat. Considering the real estate price right now, that is a big compensation. I am indeed aware of the emotion side of having your home demolished. That I cannot comment because it is a individual thing. That said I am also sure that other places across the country, especially in the country side, there are indeed many peole being forced to move out their homes and make way for industrial projects.

2, I DO appreciate what you did for the student protesting in Tian an men. What happened there was no doubt a tragedy. But please do not mix the government and the people here into one thing. government is one thing. People is another. Being a citizen of a group-dictatorship -country does not mean its people cannot enjoy the Olympics or draw attention from all over the world. You can say that government takes credit that should not be given. But I do not think that the ordinary people's enjoyment of a world event should be deprived just because the government.

3, I do not know much about the contaminated toy/food story. I will make a general statement which is rather directed to the general practise of those manufacturers than the case you mentioned : I DO NOT have any sympathy towards those manufacturers or officials who get involved. I believe the contaminated food issue has been in my country for around 10 years. It first emerged as a domestic issue which never really caught any attention from the monitoring agency or government authorities. People here,especially in small towns like where I come from, are having contaminated food stuff, like pork, for the past 10 years. Government never really do something to it until similar thing happens to Chinese product in America(by the way, a big thank you). So why is it taking so long for a already common-seen wrong-doings to get exposed in a large scale and finally draw a little bit serious attention from the government? Simple. because no one really cares about ordinary people's food as long as they make profits or get promoted in the hierarch system inside the government. The case you mentioned, I believe, is just a tip of the iceberg. Whatever the punishment they got is fine to me because what they did really affect millions of millions people. Of couse there are innocent manufactures out there. But very few.

TO be honest I do not know what point you are trying make. And I even made a such long reply. Please forgive me for bringing up this old post.

I hear you on this. It would be like people assuming that all Americans approve of George W. Bush b/c he's the president of the U.S.

As for the East Germans' drug use, I think if you're 11-12 years old and told to take a "vitamin," even if you know it's really not a vitamin, how easy is it going to be to stand up against a whole system of coaches and officials who tell you "do this if you want us to support your swimming"? We're talking about kids. Seems here, it's the officials/coaches who are the far more guilty party. It's called "child endangerment."

Something else again when adult athletes take steroids: they do need to be held responsible for their choices. But the key word is "choice." The kids in East Germany weren't given much of a choice, if any.

Sadly, though, drugs have pretty much become endemic in sports. And unfortunately, for that reason, there will be athletes tempted to go the drug route just to stay competitive, so it's a vicious circle.

It's all the more important that values are reinforced from childhood on. Unfortunately, too often, our culture pushes winning at all costs. Wasn't there a Nike commercial that said "you don't win silver, you lose gold." We need as a culture to recognize and reward other values besides winning.

Consider American kids' sports: I went to a basketball game in which my niece was playing--it was a kids' team, about 5th/6th grade girls. The coach of the opposing team seemed to fancy himself a WNBA coach, screaming at refs and players, losing his temper over everything. My brother coached my niece's team and while he could correct or push them when needed, he also was very positive, encouraging, recognizing effort even if it didn't result in points scored, etc. I felt sorry for the girls on the other team. What were they learning from their coach?

craiglll@yahoo.com
December 20th, 2007, 04:22 PM
Tree,

I think your points strongly contradit each other. The food contamination problem wasn't anything until it effected the image of the government. By the US pointing out that htese problems existed, your government finally took notice and did something. Has anything been corrected? We still have toys being sold in our stores that have lead paint. The only toys that were pulled were toys that had a rish of being put inthe mouths of children.

We ahve had several stories on our TV news about people losing there homes to make way for Olympic sites. We ahve also heard about people along the Yangste River from Cighong( Ithink that's the English spelling) the port being moved and not compensated. many extremely old neighborhoods in Beijing are being destroyed. If a family you know got compensated, they are tru;y unique and fortunate. Some are being moved into inadequate housing that is not completely finished.

But can China really stomach having the world look at its infrastructure? This morning Resident Bush said in his news conference one true thing. We will not ever solve our envirnmental problems if China refuses to come to the table to negotiate. I live ina part of Illinois that has extremely deep coal veins. Most of the mining here has been stopped because of envirnomental reasons. Recently, in a city about 50 miles away, the federal, state and local governments along with a corporation have announced the building of a new electrical plant that will burn coal and not emit carbon into the air. China is building coal-burning electrical plants every day that are putting out tons of polutants. I hope the Chinese people can enjoy the beauty and wonder of the Olympics, if they can see them. I truly believe that the government of the Peoples Republic of China is using the Olympics as a tool to pull the wool over their citizens' eyes.

craiglll@yahoo.com
December 20th, 2007, 04:25 PM
Tree it is not a perfect translation but I am sure if people think a little they will understand.

It is like here in Canada when I talk to a french speaking Canadian I have to think in French. In french they say (english translation) Close the light, which means - Turn off the light.


When I speak to French Canadians, I always get stopped when they answer the telephone by saying "bonjour." Once I said to a lady, "It's hallo, in French not bonjour. When you answer a telephone you say hallo." She got really mad at me.

fanstone
December 20th, 2007, 06:00 PM
Hey Craig: the U.S. puts out 25% of world pollution and China another 25%, divide by number of people and figure it out. It is wrong for China to pollute, but you can't preach to them now, after you've gotten your clean energy, after two centuries of pollution. The problems in the Yangtze are similar to some problems the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) had about 60 years ago, when making damns on the Tennessee and Ohio rivers. It is all a question of historical perspective. Also, at the time of the Los Angeles Games no mention of the Kent killings of 1969 were made. We could argue for hours and not reach a conclusion, because we are arguing politics. I think Richard Gere should also help the Mexicans get back Texas and California, as he is helping the Tibetans to get back their land from the Chinese. See, all a question of historical perspective. Most of the Olympic areas were built on run down old buildings, some swamps and park areas. I saw this personally in May (guess with whom? with the Tree himself). I think sports and Olympics are a bad time to argue politics and issues outside the games themselves.

Tree
December 21st, 2007, 03:43 AM
Craig,

1, If you read my post thoroughly you would find I never said that every family was compensated by Beijing government. I even explicitly said that in countryside there were indeed many people who were forced out of their homes to make way for industrial projects. So please DO READ CAREFULLY before you say someone is contradicting him/herself. And also please do not make some bold claims about the facts that you do not have a comprehensive knowledge, like, as I quote from your words, "they are tru;y unique". An American TV programme did not tell the whole story. and "China is building coal-burning electrical plants every day", which is just plainly impossible.

I do not know what point you were trying make regarding the contaminated food/toy thing. Are you critisizing me for the Chinese goverment have done nothing on those toys? or something else?

Since you pursist in blaming all the faults of contaminated toys on Chinese government, I would like to ask you how come one of the deputy CEOs (i am not sure how his title should be translated) of Mattel apologized publicly during his visit to China to the Chinese Inspection Bureau and Chinese toy manufacturers for the design flaw from Mattel that eventually caused severl Mattel product call. Do not get me wrong, I do believe that my government did and is doing and will do most of their jobs wrong. But it is unfair to blame every wrong-doing on my government before the results of relating investigations are revealed.

The environmental issue. I totally agree every country including China should impose stringent regulations and encourage people and manufacturers to use clean energy. I do not know how things is like in America. But I DO know that the central government of China is trying its best to reduce pollution. For instance, during the past five years, the Environment Protection Bureau of China, with the support of the central government, has been transforming from a "no one listening to it" government body to a strong voice speaker in project plannings, especially power plants. Actually a large project in Fujian Province has just been suspended because of the disapproval of Environment Protection Bureau. I used to work for a trade business company. One of the equipment I dealt with was used for emission cleanning system in the coal fueled power plant.This kind of emission cleanning system is imposed compulsory by central government. Beijing government has reduced the public transport cost significantly to attract more people. It now costs 2 RMB(1 dollar is about 8.2 RMB) to travel by metro, 0.4 RMB the least and 2RMB the most for most bus lines. I'ven seen more gas(not petrol) powed bus and heard that more battery powed buses would be used next year, etc. I am not trying to say that we are doing an excellent job. What I am tryng so say is that we are improving.

So what target shoud be set to China? Is it the same with America in the near future? Or shall we be given more time and space and ness restrictions as compared to America? I have to say YES to the last one. I've seen people in countryside get their only income from polluting manufacturers. I've heard people asking what are they supposed to rely on if the polluting plant is shut down. I am aware that the few relatively developed cities in CHina, like Beijing, is really working on evironment issues. I am also aware that vast majority,like the small cities and countryside, are going to suffer significantly if their only industrial plants are closed. It is easy for you, Craig, to earn a descent income, to buy stuff you need at the most competitve price in the world, to enjoy your happy life while critisizing other people who live probably under 2 dollars/day per family for not being green. To them, the issue is not green or not, it is really survival.

And in addition to what Fanstone said, how come President Bush and America become the hero on environment protections? Correct me if I am wrong, America has just recently, maybe this month(?), announced that USA is going to approve the Tokyo Protocol.

Rob Copeland
December 21st, 2007, 08:41 AM
I think sports and Olympics are a bad time to argue politics and issues outside the games themselves. Ahem, Brother!!!!:applaud:

NOTE: This is not an attempt to introduce religion into this sports/politics debate.

knelson
December 21st, 2007, 01:47 PM
Once I said to a lady, "It's hallo, in French not bonjour. When you answer a telephone you say hallo." She got really mad at me.

I thought it was "allo," not "hallo," so technically you were wrong too! :)

craiglll@yahoo.com
December 21st, 2007, 04:10 PM
I thought it was "allo," not "hallo," so technically you were wrong too! :)

It is Hallo. Most people spell it allo.

Stillhere
January 11th, 2008, 02:28 PM
Marion Jones was sentenced today to six (6) month in a Federal Prison for lying to investigators.

Slowswim
January 11th, 2008, 03:26 PM
Marion Jones was sentenced today to six (6) month in a Federal Prison for lying to investigators.

Was it just lying about steriod use? I saw something about check fraud. How is that connected? Seems a bit harsh compared to what entertainment strat get away with.

Blackbeard's Peg
January 11th, 2008, 03:27 PM
Marion Jones was sentenced today to six (6) month in a Federal Prison for lying to investigators.

Good lesson in honesty...
as for her living quarters the next 6 months, i wonder if this is the same federal facility mentioned in Office Space (the "FPMITA" variety)... or the martha stewart girl scout camp... :dedhorse:

Stillhere
January 11th, 2008, 03:46 PM
The six (6) months for lying to the investigators was for drugs use only. The lying charge related to the check scam was suspended if she behaves in prison and serves her 800 hours of community service.

Muppet, you make a good point regarding the type facility she will be incarcerated in. Having said that, she is still in prison, not free to roam around, must eat what is served her, no privacy and still locked up.

Given these facts, I do not believe her sentence was too harsh:
-------------
Seven years after winning a women’s record five Olympic track and field medals and snagging multimillion-dollar endorsement deals, Marion Jones is broke.
The sprinter is heavily in debt, fighting off court judgments and down to a bank balance of about $2,000, according to recent court records reviewed by the Los Angeles Times.
Last year a bank foreclosed on her $2.5-million mansion in an area of Chapel Hill, N.C., where Michael Jordan was a neighbor. She was also forced to sell two other properties, including her mother’s house, to raise money.
Jones’ financial woes were revealed in a 168-page deposition in a breach-of-contract suit she filed in Dallas against veteran track coach Dan Pfaff. Pfaff countersued and won a judgment against Jones for about $240,000 in unpaid training fees and legal expenses.
Legal bills have plagued Jones since 2003, when suspicions of drug use emerged and she was linked to the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative (BALCO) after a federal raid. Jones retained attorneys for her BALCO grand jury testimony, for negotiations with the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency in her fight to avoid being banned from competition, for a defamation lawsuit she filed against BALCO founder Victor Conte, who accused her of taking performance-enhancing drugs, and for taking on Pfaff in her breach-of-contract suit.
Last year, a Jones urine sample tested positive for the performance-enhancing drug EPO. Jones immediately quit a European track tour and returned to the United States. Although she was cleared when a backup sample tested negative, she missed at least five major international meets, forfeiting an estimated $300,000 in appearance and performance fees.
In her prime, Jones was one of track’s first female millionaires, typically earning between $70,000 and $80,000 a race, plus at least another $1 million from race bonuses and endorsement deals.
In 2000-01, she competed in 21 international events, including the Sydney Olympics, where she won five medals & three gold.

FindingMyInnerFish
January 12th, 2008, 06:26 PM
It's a sad case, really. I don't condone what she did--it showed lack of judgment at best. But why did she go off the deep end financially and every other way? She seems so much like those new pro athletes, fresh out of high school or college who lose sight of what matters and go after the money and prestige, overspending, having others cover for them, bit by bit losing their way--because their maturity hasn't caught up with their talents, and they see their athletic ability as something that will always serve their interests and needs no matter how much they abuse the privileges they acquire through it. Only after the castle crumbles do they begin to see what's become of them. Sometimes not even then.... Hoping MJ will find herself again.

I have a quote of hers hanging in my apartment about running relaxed versus letting oneself tense up, and how the former felt like "cutting through clouds." I still think the person who said those words is in there somewhere, but since the interview in which she said that, she's gone astray in a lot of ways.

geochuck
January 12th, 2008, 09:16 PM
What about the cyclists, baseball and football players. I have not seen any of them sent to jail.

HiPockets
January 13th, 2008, 09:44 AM
Well written FFish. I enjoyed watching Jones and ebullient smile over years and have been disappointed to learn of her transgressions. There are many examples in business, athletics, politics where success envelops and clouds perspective to the detriment of the accomplishment, and most can recount degees of this in personal experiences. Very sad for Marion (there is nothing 'easy' about any incarceration in any facility) and I hope she retains enough of her smile to pass on to her children.

gull
January 13th, 2008, 03:30 PM
What about the cyclists, baseball and football players. I have not seen any of them sent to jail.

They have not been convicted of lying to federal investigators.

Redbird Alum
January 13th, 2008, 09:49 PM
(there is nothing 'easy' about any incarceration in any facility) and I hope she retains enough of her smile to pass on to her children.

I think being separated from and diminished in the eyes of her children is going to be the harshest part of the sentence for her. All her years of glory will never make up for this part of her suffering.

ALM
January 15th, 2008, 12:37 PM
From http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/story?id=4133075&page=1

Baggy Pants to Buff Bods: Sports Figures Linked to Steriods, and Now It's Rappers
By SUSAN DONALDSON JAMES
Jan. 15, 2008

"Big, bad, and now buff like baseball slugger Barry Bonds.

Hip-hop stars, cultural icons for youth around the world, have now been linked to steroid use.

Some of the biggest names in rap -- Mary J. Blige, 50 Cent, Timbaland and Wyclef Jean -- may have used performance-enhancing drugs, according to an ongoing investigation that was launched two years ago by the Albany, N.Y., district attorney's office. The names of the rap stars appeared in a story in the Albany Times Union that the DA has refused to confirm.

Few would say hip-hop stars -- with their music personas of drugs, violence and misogyny -- are getting a bad rap. But those familiar with the culture say steroid use is more about beauty and album sales than strength and endurance....."

Blackbeard's Peg
January 15th, 2008, 01:23 PM
Well, I can't say I am surprised. Rapper/Actor Curtis "50 Cent" Jackson has rock hard abs. He is neither under the age of 23 (he's 32) nor a professional football player, which, according to Peyton Manning, are the only way to get said rock hard abs. Must be the 'roids. :thhbbb:

To 50's credit, he did box for the US in the Jr. Olympics in the '80s, so its not like he's a couch potato.

Ripple
January 15th, 2008, 02:27 PM
I don't know why drug use surprises anyone. You can't turn on the tv or read a magazine without seeing ads for some over-the-counter cold medicine or painkiller. Now, that may not seem to be in the same league, but look at the recurring message in these ads. Get bad headaches all the time? Don't bother to figure out why, just pop a pill and get right back to whatever you were doing. Got a rotten cold? Don't stay at home resting and recovering, just take this magic elixer and go right back to the office to infect all your co-workers so that we can sell more of this stuff. Put on too many pounds from sitting through cold and headache commercials while watching t.v.? Take this diet pill and get thin more quickly.
Drugs in sports - it's the "better living through chemistry" approach taken to it's logical extreme.
:soapbox:

geochuck
January 15th, 2008, 02:39 PM
HGH is the new rage. Been around a long time.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/front_page/3101343.stm

craiglll@yahoo.com
January 15th, 2008, 03:13 PM
After Mary J Blige has done so much to turn her life around, it s hard to believe that she would do steroids. I didn't notice and dates inthe article. I didn't read it thoroughly though.

when she was doing illegal activities, she asked all the white people to leave her concert. It was very disappointing.

aquageek
January 22nd, 2008, 07:59 AM
It's a sad case, really.

I don't see a thing sad about this, really. She lied repeatedly, took illegal drugs, squandered away her money voluntarily, etc. She might be sad because she got caught. Remember she's going to jail for the same reasons as Martha Stewart, Scooter Libby and some of the Enron guys (I think) - she lied to the gov't. Is it sad for them also? What about Barry Bonds, he got away with the drugs but not the lying.

Sad implies we should feel some sort of empathy for a person. Since she brought this all on herself, I'm only sad that I was stupid enough to believe her for a few years. Then again, maybe that just makes me pathetic.

Stillhere
January 22nd, 2008, 10:42 AM
Geek:
My thoughts to the letter!
What I do not understand is why anyone should feel sorry for her. Yes, I feel bad that her children will not be with their mother for six months, but that came about and was caused by her actions. Let us not lose sight of the fact that by cheating as she did, she prevented other clean athletes from making the money she did. She killed many other clean athlete’s life long dreams and hard work. Think about all the hundred and thousands of laps it takes to step onto the winners block, the hours of hard work, years of hard work, the dedication, money and sacrifice---and THEN have some low down cheat steal your deserved place on the winners block. Then add insult to misery and have her lie, malign and pull the race card as she did---I feel nothing for her except she got what she had coming. I also hope the Bond's and other cheaters get caught and also get tossed in jail when caught lying to investigators.

Ripple
January 23rd, 2008, 10:33 AM
I feel sorry for the Belize amateur sports federation which named a stadium after her. (Her family moved to the 'States after Hurricane Hattie)
When my beloved and I were in Belize in 2005, he mentioned to our guide that he'd love to meet some cycling people in Belize City if possible (he's a UCI commissaire), and as Xavier was a former head of the soccer committee he knew exactly where to take us. We got to meet some dedicated, hard working people in a run-down old warehouse who were doing a lot with few resources.
Marion Jones was a big idol to young Belizian athletes, there were pictures of her all over the building. She let them down the most. :(

Stillhere
January 23rd, 2008, 02:14 PM
Ripple:
That is sad....Now, I hope they change the name of the stadium to someone deserving of that honor, then rename their jail after her.

geochuck
January 23rd, 2008, 02:36 PM
We are coming down very hard on this wonderful athlete.
She made a mistake...

Was she not great before the drug taking incident. I lay all blame on her husband.

Leonard Jansen
January 23rd, 2008, 03:26 PM
We are coming down very hard on this wonderful athlete.
She made a mistake...

Was she not great before the drug taking incident. I lay all blame on her husband.

Her choice of men is certainly questionable (CJ Hunter, Tim Montgomery) and others that she associated with (Trevor Graham, etc) were no shining stars. However, no one forced her to do so and she made an adult decision to take the PED's. Furthermore, she made a conscious decision to lie about it.
She took money that someone else might have earned, took spots on the Olympic team that someone else deserved, and got glory that someone else should have had. Therefore, she deserves whatever scorn she gets.

-LBJ

geochuck
January 23rd, 2008, 04:13 PM
Some men abuse their wives and women in general. No one has to do what these males tell them, but even though she looks physically able to defend her self she is very meek and I think she has been taken advantage of.

It is not really an excuse I am making for her. I have not much respect for the company she kept. I feel these guys have told her take this it is good for you and she was very gulible.

She still is a great athlete in my eyes. I feel very sorry for her.

aquageek
January 24th, 2008, 01:11 PM
We are coming down very hard on this wonderful athlete.
She made a mistake...

Was she not great before the drug taking incident. I lay all blame on her husband.

Here are her known list of "mistakes." Which one are you referring to singularly?

1. Taking banned drugs
2. Lying to the public for over half a decade
3. Lying to the government under oath

Which of these do you blame on her husband/boyfriends?

geochuck
January 24th, 2008, 01:15 PM
Maybe these drugs should not be banned??

Stillhere
January 25th, 2008, 01:20 PM
"Maybe these drugs should not be banned?? "

My vote is heck no! What message does this send to our kids? This will impact our kids health. This destroys any semblance of purity in sports. My vote is to 100% commit ourselves to keep all of sports clean and hammer the cheaters whenever caught--to the MAX---And, when caught lying to Federal Authorities---send them directly to jail where they belong---
It takes a brave SOB to step over the corpse to see if the gun is still loaded.

SwimStud
January 28th, 2008, 12:35 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/Movies/01/26/stallone.hgh.ap/index.html

HGH will be over the counter in 10 years...apparently...