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View Full Version : What is "hinging" in BR and how do you do it?



The Fortress
October 8th, 2007, 10:50 AM
Calling all breaststroke gurus ... Can anyone explain what "hinging" is in breaststroke? I've heard the reference, but don't really know what it is or how to do it.

Also, do any you use paddles in BR for fast scull drills or anything else?

Thanks.

bud
October 8th, 2007, 11:11 AM
i googled it and got some unexpected results (http://www.dgp.toronto.edu/~nmorris/CSC2529/project_report.pdf)... but this may be what you are looking for (use the "find" function [typically Ctrl+F] on <hinge>). all these bits seem to reference the same text...

Breaststroke Breakthrough (http://www.breaststroke.info/grotebreast.htm)
By Terry Laughlin Photos by David Madison

Breaststroke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaststroke) (at Wikipedia)

"How to swim the breaststroke with a good technique"
at SwimCity (http://www.swim-city.com/breaststroke.php)

Jeff Commings
October 8th, 2007, 11:34 AM
I didn't go to the above links, but I've not heard much about hinging.

But thinking about the stroke, it might have somthing to do with the way you set up your hips during the highest portion of your stroke (i.e. when you're breathing) to get ready for a strong kick.

I'm thinking the smaller the hinge the better. When you bring your feet up for the kick, don't bring the knees forward and expose your thighs to resistance. Thrust your hips down and forward to give your legs better access to a strong kick.

Boy, breaststroke is so hard to describe in words. Best to find an underwater video of Kitajima or Hansen and you'll see what I mean. I think Leisel Jones does it well, too, at least for her stroke type.

geochuck
October 8th, 2007, 11:42 AM
Hinging a wonderfull well thought out word that someone has thrown in to make everyone believe it is a new adaptation to swimming. Similar to the word used to say neutral head position which is the way good crawl swimmers always do or did.

Good hinging keeps the door on my garden fence opening and closing easily.

fanstone
October 8th, 2007, 11:46 AM
"Boy, breaststroke is so hard to describe in words. Best to find an underwater video of Kitajima or Hansen and you'll see what I mean. I think Leisel Jones does it well, too, at least for her stroke type."

Maybe Amanda Beard, au naturelle?

The Fortress
October 8th, 2007, 12:42 PM
Hinging a wonderfull well thought out word that someone has thrown in to make everyone believe it is a new adaptation to swimming.

I don't care who invented it or where the word derives from. I'm only interested in figuring out how to do it. Just trying to start a thread not replete with postings about alleged head burying and aliases.

:duel:

geochuck
October 8th, 2007, 05:05 PM
I am going to give you all I can find on the hinge.
http://www.jcswimschool.co.nz/effective_breaststroke.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=73foCLEJVOEC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=breaststroke+hinge&source=web&ots=GM_IPImHpT&sig=K1sqAU4gXQyjOENmO0Y-J7ZCVaY#PPA59,M1

JimRude
October 8th, 2007, 06:12 PM
Jeff is right. A mistake many (most?) non-breastrokers make is that they keep their hips high in the water when kicking, which leads to:

(a) knees forward, creating resistance (like putting on the brakes), and/or
(b) feet out of the water when kicking (loses power)

Focus on driving your hips down while bringing your feet up to your butt, and keep your kees fairly close together.

Does this help?

RecreationalSwimmer
October 9th, 2007, 08:23 AM
Jeff is right. A mistake many (most?) non-breastrokers make is that they keep their hips high in the water when kicking, which leads to:

(a) knees forward, creating resistance (like putting on the brakes), and/or
(b) feet out of the water when kicking (loses power)

Focus on driving your hips down while bringing your feet up to your butt, and keep your kees fairly close together.

Does this help?

Jim, does this mean you breathe with chin forward? I've been told to breathe looking down 45 degrees without curling the neck, and stay as flat as possible in the water. I also found that at least 2/3 of propulsion comes from the legs in breaststroke.

ViveBene
October 9th, 2007, 09:12 AM
Mention of hinge:

This is from the Jill Clarke Swimming School site posted by "geochuck" (Thanks!):

"If you use your high elbows as a hinge for the inward sweep of your hands and forearms, you'll create the leverage you need to use your abdominal muscles to bring your hips forward."

Regards, VB

The Fortress
October 9th, 2007, 09:17 AM
Jeff is right. A mistake many (most?) non-breastrokers make is that they keep their hips high in the water when kicking, which leads to:

(a) knees forward, creating resistance (like putting on the brakes), and/or
(b) feet out of the water when kicking (loses power)

Focus on driving your hips down while bringing your feet up to your butt, and keep your kees fairly close together.

Does this help?

I think this makes sense. So your hips are low while you're drawing your knees up. Then your hips pop back up as you are lunging forward to finish the pull? I guess, as Jeff mentioned, too big a hinge and you're up too high in the water?

meldyck
October 9th, 2007, 09:49 AM
I think this makes sense. So your hips are low while you're drawing your knees up. Then your hips pop back up as you are lunging forward to finish the pull? I guess, as Jeff mentioned, too big a hinge and you're up too high in the water?

Leslie,

one of the positive effects of the hinge in breaststroke is that, during the post-arm-recovery dive and subsequent kick, your legs and trunk power downward in the water, hinged at the hips. There is a component of downward thrust to the kick as well as the froggy-type motion. That is, the body's core produces some element of power in the kick, much the same way as dolphin kicking does in fly. Because of a hinge at the waist, the breaststroke kick now provides power in two planes in the water: one is the horizontal (froggy-style) plane and the other is vertical from the downward component of the kick. It's not dolphin but has a dolphin-like action to it. It is this part of the kick that seems to me to give breaststrokers their common problems with 'sports hernias,' the strain to the groin muscles. When you've got this working, you should feel like the Loch Ness Monster snaking through the water!

geochuck
October 9th, 2007, 09:57 AM
The myth about breaststroke is that the knees do not drop or leave the pocket.

meldyck I like what you say.

Please explain is the hinge exclusivley at the waist or is the hinge in the arms - elbows also.

meldyck
October 9th, 2007, 10:36 AM
The myth about breaststroke is that the knees do not drop or leave the pocket.

meldyck I like what you say.

Please explain is the hinge exclusivley at the waist or is the hinge in the arms - elbows also.

George,

for me, it's just at the waist. And, yes, my knees do drop during the pull. I read something from Kurt Grote (I think it was) that said that he didn't successfully learn the wave until he learned how to thrust his hips forward during the pull. This aids the trunk in coming high enough in the water to achieve an arm recovery that is either slightly out of or just below the surface of the water where the resistance is lower due to mixing in air in the water (hence the speed of the arm recovery can be faster). During that part of the stroke, the knees will drop, while the swimmer is loading the legs for the kick - bringing the heels up to the butt.

Hope this helps!

geochuck
October 9th, 2007, 10:51 AM
Thanks Mel

I remember being told I was wrong when I mentioned knee position in breaststroke, but what I teach is what you described.

I was a very good breaststroker in my youth but after a car accident and my knees putting a dent in the dashboard, my knees were useless when trying to be a breastroker. I did fake the kick after that without applying pressure.

Allen Stark
October 9th, 2007, 11:43 AM
I hadn't heard the word hinge for that but it makes sense.There is an article in the new Swimming World that instead of keeping the head neutral all the time,Brendan Hansen lifts his head slightly to initiate the rise to breathe.I suspect that is about simultaneous with the "hip thrust".Don't over exaggerate this motion( See Wayne's articles"What Went Wrong with the Wave Breaststroke" and What Went Right with the Wave Breaststroke" .)

The Fortress
October 9th, 2007, 02:05 PM
I tried this "hinging" thing out today. Should have been doing this awhile ago, I think. I've been swimming BR with my arms and legs and not my core. :doh: I was using my arms to pull up to breath without pushing my hips down. Breaststroke is so technically difficult. I am definitely not one of those "born" breaststrokers. I could definitely use a breaststroke clinic.

JimRude
October 9th, 2007, 03:02 PM
I tried this "hinging" thing out today. Should have been doing this awhile ago, I think. I've been swimming BR with my arms and legs and not my core. :doh: I was using my arms to pull up to breath without pushing my hips down. Breaststroke is so technically difficult. I am definitely not one of those "born" breaststrokers. I could definitely use a breaststroke clinic.

Come to Mt. Hood in August 2008 and you're on...;)

The Fortress
October 9th, 2007, 03:23 PM
Come to Mt. Hood in August 2008 and you're on...;)

That's what Allen keeps saying, but I'm only going to Austin next year. Plus, I really try to confine my BR ugliness to local zones meets and limit viewer nausea.

JimRude
October 9th, 2007, 03:27 PM
That's what Allen keeps saying, but I'm only going to Austin next year. Plus, I really try to confine my BR ugliness to local zones meets and limit viewer nausea.

I will be in Austin, so let's agree to do a "clinic" there.

ande
October 9th, 2007, 03:31 PM
isn't hinging the process of adding hinges to a door?

or

Your success tonight is hinging on the mood of your spouse

I am so in the dark when it comes to breastroke
I'd copy someone who is really good at it.

It's all about strength and technique

geochuck
October 9th, 2007, 03:38 PM
There are all kinds of clinics all over, Home Depot has in store hinging clinics and Videos.

Ande I went to Home Depot they showed me how to apply the hinge.

The Fortress
October 9th, 2007, 04:49 PM
I'd copy someone who is really good at it.
It's all about strength and technique


Well, there is one person on my team who's a great BR-er. But he just gave himself a huge SLAP tear from bench pressing. :sad: Coach has no idea how to do it. I guess I'm stuck with trying to watch Mini-Fort, who I still can't believe I birthed. Or get tips from Jim in Austin.

Isn't it better to watch from underwater though ... that seems like the better way to see the "hinge" or "wave."

scyfreestyler
October 9th, 2007, 04:53 PM
The GoSwim video with Kaitlin Sandeno and Erik Vendt has a lot of underwater footage, and is IM oriented so it does spend some time on breast.

The Fortress
October 9th, 2007, 05:22 PM
The GoSwim video with Kaitlin Sandeno and Erik Vendt has a lot of underwater footage, and is IM oriented so it does spend some time on breast.

Is that the 4 strokes DVD? I think I might own that one. Haven't watched it in ages. Then, there's always youtube.

geochuck
October 9th, 2007, 05:32 PM
Fort I was just going to tell you to check that DVD out.

david.margrave
October 10th, 2007, 02:16 AM
Are these techniques (hinge, wave, etc) that lead to big time drops if you can get the hang of them? I think i'm stuck behind a wall of water that just presses back more the harder I work. A recent time is :41.02 for 50 BR SCM, nothing to get excited about.

geochuck
October 10th, 2007, 02:31 AM
That wall of water - to me it looks like they grab the other side of the wall and press on it as the wall moves forward.

Allen Stark
October 10th, 2007, 09:57 PM
If you feel like you are pushing a wall of water then probably you are probably either lifting your head or getting stuck in the transition from insweep to recovery.Work on keeping your head down and on accelerating your pull from catch through insweep to recovery.

shark
October 12th, 2007, 08:58 PM
I am going to give you all I can find on the hinge.
http://www.jcswimschool.co.nz/effective_breaststroke.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=73foCLEJVOEC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=breaststroke+hinge&source=web&ots=GM_IPImHpT&sig=K1sqAU4gXQyjOENmO0Y-J7ZCVaY#PPA59,M1

8. The last word of a champion:

Keep your stroke in shape with drills. "Nothing puts my stroke right as quickly as stroke drills." In fact, 10 minutes before he went off the blocks for the world championships final in Perth, Grote was in the warm-up pool, getting in a few last minute tune-up lengths with stroke drills. That's clearly a strategy that works.

How about that! "The last word of a champion." I apologize to anyone who has previously quoted #8 above. I didn't make it any further than this entry in the thread. 'nuff said in my opinion.

Thanks Geochuck, you nvr cs t amz. jst btifl!