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Syd
October 24th, 2007, 01:15 AM
Check out this link: http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/cs/milk.html

Firstly, are the claims for real? Anyone out there taking it who can back up anything that the makers claim it does?

Secondly, is it legal? It seems to be on a par with Creatine which, as far as I can ascertain from other threads on this forum, is not banned.

Finally, are there any hazards to taking something like this?

sincerely Syd

SwimStud
October 24th, 2007, 08:05 AM
Hey I just starting taking that (didnt' realise there was a big to-do over it) More for a sustaining drink b/c I don't get time to digest a meal before practice. I'll let you know if I see anything dramatic occur.

There are hazards to everything if you think about it. This stuff gives me gas...does that count?

Don't mix it with water...it's gross.

geochuck
October 24th, 2007, 08:14 AM
It has all the same stuff in it that our Whey Powder we buy at Costco for $38 a huge jug powder.
http://www.costco.ca/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=10297708&whse=BCCA&topnav=&browse=&lang=en-CA&s=1

Gas should make you putter along.

Beans will do the same thing and they are loaded with protein.

Syd
October 24th, 2007, 09:36 AM
There are hazards to everything if you think about it. This stuff gives me gas...does that count?

Don't mix it with water...it's gross.

From the posts I read this seems to be a common problem with creatine. So does it work then? I mean can you feel/see a difference?

What are you meant to mix it with? Milk?

And George, I was looking at the ingredients and it looked like nothing more than vitamin, protein enriched chocolate powder. But then I am no expert.

Syd

geochuck
October 24th, 2007, 09:49 AM
You are right Syd it is high in protein, not a lot of garbage other products. I don't use it my wife uses it as a replacment for a meal.

Eat proper well balanced meals and snacks and you do not need these products.

SwimStud
October 24th, 2007, 10:01 AM
Eat proper well balanced meals and snacks and you do not need these products.
While I echo this, eating before swimming is not on my schedule...I've tried and I can't get going in the water due to belching and feeling stuffed.

These drinks and products are called supplements for a reason, they supplement. They might do little more than ensure you're getting what you need in eating in case you don't have suzy or sammy homemaker waiting with dinner prepared at a the optimum time for your workout schedule.

Eating balanced meals and snacks is great if you have the time to do it all. Don't delude yourself into thiinking just because it's meat and 2 vegatables that it's fully balanced. Anthing coming out of a box is probably modified in some way.

Syd, I literally just started taking this...mainly b/c the cost of energy bars and drinks are high in comparison. For me it's just a training tool to not feel hungry or like barfing. If I notice anything sensational like 20lbs of muscle in a month..I'll let you know ;)

Syd
October 24th, 2007, 11:46 AM
Syd, I litereally just strated taking this...mainly b/c the cost of energy bars and drinks are high in comparison. For me it's just a training tool to not feel hungry or like barfing.

I have been doing some research on supplements myself. So far all I have found is contradicting claims. Walked past a store that sells all these things on Monday and popped in. I was overwhelmed to say the least. All I am looking for is something that can cover any gaps that I might have left in my diet and perhaps give me a boost in energy when I need it on those 'down' days.

If I notice anything sensational like 20lbs of muscle in a month..I'll let you know ;)Be sure to include pictures Stud. I am sure the ladies will love that.:D

Syd

christineL
October 24th, 2007, 11:54 AM
:doh: Where are the research data documenting how effective muscle milk is in comparison to the other products? From what I read the blurb, I do not see anything but single case hand waving market aiming for people who really want to get the most out of artificial food to get them to where they want to go.

If you'd like to know what product will be the most effective in helping you reach your goal, then you'd need to go to a reputated library where you'd find research studies. More often than not, marketing does not really reflect what scienitific studies with great reliability have to such about the product you are interested in.

Stick with unprocessed wholesome food and you'd be fine. :D

Paul Smith
October 24th, 2007, 11:56 AM
Swimmers from the ASU & U of A were raving about it 2 years ago...in fact I think Schoeman is a paid spokesman now.

I've used it for a year....and think its fantastic (mixed with milk taken after workout).

George...it does have high levels of quality protein but one of the key ingredients that is the "hot" supplement these days is L-Glutamine.

And yes...its all legal.

SwimStud
October 24th, 2007, 12:01 PM
I've used it for a year....and think its fantastic (mixed with milk taken after workout).



Yup I was hungry last night after my gruelling workout, and had a glass instead of eating junk.

Paul what benefit have you found from it?

3strokes
October 24th, 2007, 08:11 PM
It has all the same stuff in it that our Whey Powder we buy at Costco for $38 a huge jug powder.

Gas should make you putter along.

Beans will do the same thing and they are loaded with protein.


Think............. jet engine or squid-like propulsion.......;)

david.margrave
October 24th, 2007, 08:20 PM
Try estimating your current protein intake in grams per day, and you may find that you are already getting enough. Some sources say that the US recommended daily allowance for protein is too low (I think it is 50g) and that 1.2-1.4g/kg body weight is a better amount for endurance athletes. Sources vary on whether you should use lean body weight or full body weight in that calculation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=15212749&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google

I think there are some MDs on this board who may comment. We may have dietitians too.

Sam Perry
October 24th, 2007, 09:06 PM
Swimmers from the ASU & U of A were raving about it 2 years ago...in fact I think Schoeman is a paid spokesman now.

I've used it for a year....and think its fantastic (mixed with milk taken after workout).

George...it does have high levels of quality protein but one of the key ingredients that is the "hot" supplement these days is L-Glutamine.

And yes...its all legal.

I knew you were juicing! What other "secrets" do you possess?

SwimStud
October 25th, 2007, 10:14 AM
I knew you were juicing! What other "secrets" do you possess?

Pssst Sam...I think he read this ad too...
http://www.vpix.com/docs_f/rhps/trivia/atlas.c/atlas01.jpg

:rofl:

And below is Geek's motivational picture...Why, why, why, Delilah?

Paul Smith
October 25th, 2007, 10:39 AM
I knew you were juicing! What other "secrets" do you possess?

Viagra and Red Bull! :banana:

Warren
December 14th, 2007, 02:29 PM
I'v been thinking about getting some Muscle Milk but I just read some information that sugests that it is some bad stuff...http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1231523

ande
December 14th, 2007, 02:35 PM
looks like a protein drink with a cute name and marketing plan


Check out this link: http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/cs/milk.html

Firstly, are the claims for real? Anyone out there taking it who can back up anything that the makers claim it does?

Secondly, is it legal? It seems to be on a par with Creatine which, as far as I can ascertain from other threads on this forum, is not banned.

Finally, are there any hazards to taking something like this?

sincerely Syd

SwimStud
December 14th, 2007, 02:58 PM
I'v been thinking about getting some Muscle Milk but I just read some information that sugests that it is some bad stuff...http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1231523

Warren, I've not noticed anything magical about it in terms of feeling more energised or what not. It may help with recovery, though, in my experience. Admittedly I don't do mega yard either.
I think it may be causing me to get a bit gassier than usual...I'm not sure I will buy any more...I really only wanted protein and glucose in a shake as a filler before working out.

Jazz Hands
December 14th, 2007, 03:07 PM
looks like a protein drink with a cute name and marketing plan

Yep. I'd rather eat real food.

SwimStud
December 14th, 2007, 03:21 PM
Yep. I'd rather eat real food.

So would I but I don't have the leisurely lifestyle to plan my meals optimally around training...I get home at 5, I swim at about 7...if I eat first I'll barf. If I have nothing I will tire out too soon.

Nathan
December 14th, 2007, 05:51 PM
I'v been thinking about getting some Muscle Milk but I just read some information that sugests that it is some bad stuff...http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1231523

They took glycocyamine out of it quite awhile ago.

On another note, I think Muscle Milk is a fantastic supplement and the MCT's in it are really beneficial for most people. Is their whey isolate better than the competition? I doubt it, but still it is fairly high quality.

Endorsed swimmers by Cytosport (makers of Muscle Milk) include Roland Schoeman and Rachel Komisarz.

matysekj
December 14th, 2007, 07:07 PM
Pssst Sam...I think he read this ad too...
http://www.vpix.com/docs_f/rhps/trivia/atlas.c/atlas01.jpg

Atlas was just a pretty-boy back then. The one who was named strongest man in the world in 1922 was a real man - see http://www.sandowmuseum.com/page121.html.

Now you know where my incredible physique comes from - my great uncle Anton.

runner girl
December 16th, 2007, 11:03 AM
:doh:
Stick with unprocessed wholesome food and you'd be fine. :D

I agree that unprocessed wholesome food is the best, but the reality is that there are times when it isn't available.

I really only wanted protein and glucose in a shake as a filler before working out.

I thought about trying the muscle milk for after long workouts, but I didn't like the fact that it contained artificial sweeteners. I ended up finding a place online that does custom protein powder blends. So now I use a mix of whey and egg white protein and no fake sugar. I can keep the powder in a shaker in my gym bag and mix it with shelf-stable chocolate milk when I need it. In reality I could probably just go with the chocolate milk according to some articles.

jake_shellenberger
December 16th, 2007, 02:56 PM
Gee Paul, taking Muscle Milk now are we? Are you not the most outspoken one on The Race Club forums against "supplements" as you call them?

And why not take Collegiate Muslce Milk, which is allowed by the NCAA?

Here is what the NCAA has to say about regular Muscle Milk...

"The NCAA position on dietary supplement is one of caution. It is a “buyer beware market.” Purity and contamination should always be a concern. Keep in mind, the FDA does not strictly regulate dietary supplements. Therefore, the information on the labels may not be correct. Just because a product does not list any NCAA banned substances does not guarantee there are not any present."


You aren't safe over here any longer, and I will be carefully watching your every post here and at The Race Club to make sure you aren't changing your viewpoints from site to site... I could have sworn with your attitude at The Race Club concerning supplements that surely Muscle Milk would not make your list of approved substances...

Heck with your attitude over there I would have thought you didn't take any supplements, and surely I would have thought that even if you did take them Collegiate Muscle Milk would have won out over regular Muscle Milk as CMM is approved by the NCAA and regular Muscle Milk comes with a caution...

geochuck
December 16th, 2007, 03:37 PM
Just hope there are no anabolic steroids hidden in muscle milk.

May be human growth hormones???

Jazz Hands
December 16th, 2007, 03:43 PM
Just hope there are no anabolic steroids hidden in muscle milk.

May be human growth hormones???

What in the entire history of anything would make you think that a common protein mix contains GH?

Nathan
December 16th, 2007, 04:29 PM
What in the entire history of anything would make you think that a common protein mix contains GH?

Not to mention it's impossible.

geochuck
December 17th, 2007, 12:05 PM
It was meant as a pun.

But I have never trusted labels.

http://www.affordablesupplements.com/muscle_milk.asp sounds like it has something that will make it illegal.

SwimStud
December 17th, 2007, 12:14 PM
I agree that unprocessed wholesome food is the best, but the reality is that there are times when it isn't available.


I thought about trying the muscle milk for after long workouts, but I didn't like the fact that it contained artificial sweeteners. I ended up finding a place online that does custom protein powder blends. So now I use a mix of whey and egg white protein and no fake sugar. I can keep the powder in a shaker in my gym bag and mix it with shelf-stable chocolate milk when I need it. In reality I could probably just go with the chocolate milk according to some articles.

o you have the web addy. The drink I loved best when I lifted was a glucose egg and milk powder. I could guzzle a slimfast but that get's pricey..

Mighty Minnow
December 17th, 2007, 04:21 PM
I swim early in the mornings and I CANNOT eat anything and keep it down before 8:00am earliest, and I was running out of 'gas' during my 5:30am workouts. A nutritionist suggested I take 4-5 Spirulina tablets (500mg each) and it seems to get me thru the workouts. Here are a couple of links I found on this supplement...

http://www.naturalways.com/spirul1.htm and
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/spirulina-000327.htm

Trader Joe's sells spirulina for like $3.50 for 100 tablets......

Syd
December 17th, 2007, 07:12 PM
Hey I just starting taking that (didnt' realise there was a big to-do over it) More for a sustaining drink b/c I don't get time to digest a meal before practice. I'll let you know if I see anything dramatic occur.

There are hazards to everything if you think about it. This stuff gives me gas...does that count?

Don't mix it with water...it's gross.

Stud, are you still taking it then? Anything dramatic occur? Apart from the gas that is. :D Spare us the gas details! Is recovery really better after a strenuous workout?

Syd

SwimStud
December 17th, 2007, 07:21 PM
Stud, are you still taking it then? Anything dramatic occur? Apart from the gas that is. :D Spare us the gas details! Is recovery really better after a strenuous workout?

Syd
I did feel less tapped out the next day but sometimes the placebo effect can do a lot...who is to say for sure.

craiglll@yahoo.com
December 17th, 2007, 10:09 PM
Hopefully, this post will go through. I had a problem when I first tried.

If you have even slight gastric problems, Creatine is going to screw you up. I know many GIs who say that in time taking extra creatine is going to do a terrible number of your intestines. I have had a Colectomy. I used to have pretty bad colitis. I still have problems. After my surgery, I took some creatine and about killed myself. My surgeon and my GI were really freaked at me.

A side effect of taking in extra creatine is diarrhea. I waddle like to know if anyone who doesn't have gut problems has had problems taking creatine?

SwimStud
December 17th, 2007, 10:12 PM
Hopefully, this post will go through. I had a problem when I first tried.

If you have even slight gastric problems, Creatine is going to screw you up. I know many GIs who say that in time taking extra creatine is going to do a terrible number of your intestines. I have had a Colectomy. I used to have pretty bad colitis. I still have problems. After my surgery, I took some creatine and about killed myself. My surgeon and my GI were really freaked at me.

A side effect of taking in extra creatine is diarrhea. I waddle like to know if anyone who doesn't have gut problems has had problems taking creatine?

Interesting Craig...I thought it was just a reaction...I've been ok the last few days but I'll try another shake tomorrow and see how that affects me. If I get the gas again I may nix the rest of the stuff.

Nathan
December 18th, 2007, 01:26 AM
I've taken creatine for years and have worked for or with at least two-hundred other athletes who have taken it for long durations as well. Not a single side effect reported. The group was split about 90/10 for creatine monohydrate to creatine ethyl ester, so there was quite the variation between formulas and brands also, but all still well to do.

The Fortress
December 18th, 2007, 08:45 AM
I've taken creatine for years and have worked for or with at least two-hundred other athletes who have taken it for long durations as well. Not a single side effect reported. The group was split about 90/10 for creatine monohydrate to creatine ethyl ester, so there was quite the variation between formulas and brands also, but all still well to do.

Hmmm .... Well, the Pres of USMS is on record as saying he views creatine as cheating.

I'm coming to the conclusion that there are probably quite a number of masters using creatine. I guess I will be permanently stuck being one of the smaller competitors in the sprint lanes.

Slowswim
December 18th, 2007, 10:31 AM
Hopefully, this post will go through. I had a problem when I first tried.

If you have even slight gastric problems, Creatine is going to screw you up. I know many GIs who say that in time taking extra creatine is going to do a terrible number of your intestines. I have had a Colectomy. I used to have pretty bad colitis. I still have problems. After my surgery, I took some creatine and about killed myself. My surgeon and my GI were really freaked at me.

A side effect of taking in extra creatine is diarrhea. I waddle like to know if anyone who doesn't have gut problems has had problems taking creatine?

I and many others took it in Afghanistan. No side effects that I noticed or anyone talked about. Also, we didn't care if it was cheating given the situation. I haven't taken it since returning to the USA.


I've heard it is hard on your kidneys. Anyone know if this is true?

SwimStud
December 18th, 2007, 10:43 AM
I've heard it is hard on your kidneys. Anyone know if this is true?

Possibly... I have heard the same about Red Bull and the like..don't overdo any of that stuff...

Drink plenty of water regardless...

Slowswim
December 18th, 2007, 11:02 AM
Possibly... I have heard the same about Red Bull and the like..don't overdo any of that stuff...

Drink plenty of water regardless...
I do...evertime I swim Back Stroke. Usually through my nose though.:drown::rofl:

david.margrave
December 18th, 2007, 11:30 AM
This is an interesting discussion. Creatine seems like a grey area and seems risky. I haven't touched it. Maybe the fact that you would have to eat several pounds of steak a day to get the same intake that some people consume with supplementation is nature's way of limiting it. Most of us (except eskimos) didn't evolve that way. I suspect your physicians would take a dim view of it.

Jazz Hands
December 18th, 2007, 11:56 AM
There is some serious unwarranted paranoia here about creatine. There are two basic facts about creatine supplementation:

1. It enhances short duration exercise performance
2. It has never been shown to have a negative health effect.

I searched a little and found an article to support each of those points. As more research is done and still nobody finds any actual evidence of serious side effects, the tone of reviews seems to be shifting from "creatine is unknown and possibly dangerous" to acceptance of creatine's safety.

Long-term creatine supplementation does not significantly affect clinical markers of health in athletes (http://www.springerlink.com/content/t53405x65841411l/)

Effects of creatine supplementation on performance and training adaptation (http://www.springerlink.com/content/p2563121384n6331/)

SwimStud
December 18th, 2007, 12:10 PM
There is some serious unwarranted paranoia here about creatine. There are two basic facts about creatine supplementation:

1. It enhances short duration exercise performance
2. It has never been shown to have a negative health effect.

I searched a little and found an article to support each of those points. As more research is done and still nobody finds any actual evidence of serious side effects, the tone of reviews seems to be shifting from "creatine is unknown and possibly dangerous" to acceptance of creatine's safety.

Long-term creatine supplementation does not significantly affect clinical markers of health in athletes (http://www.springerlink.com/content/t53405x65841411l/)

Effects of creatine supplementation on performance and training adaptation (http://www.springerlink.com/content/p2563121384n6331/)

If it's proven to be safe and non habitforming then it should be legitimised as a supplement. The issue with steroids is because kids think it's ok and do it..the detrimental risks are too high...

Jazz Hands
December 18th, 2007, 12:25 PM
If it's proven to be safe and non habitforming then it should be legitimised as a supplement. The issue with steroids is because kids think it's ok and do it..the detrimental risks are too high...

I think whether something is ethical has something to do with relationship among how much it effects performance, how much it costs, and how dangerous it is.

For example, full body racing suits probably make you a little faster, they cost a lot, and they are not dangerous. This may mean they are unethical, because some swimmers can't afford them. But most of us use them.

Creatine may make you a little faster, the amount needed for meet preparation costs a few bucks, and it's not dangerous. By comparison, that sounds pretty ethical to me.

SwimStud
December 18th, 2007, 12:37 PM
I think whether something is ethical has something to do with relationship among how much it effects performance, how much it costs, and how dangerous it is.

For example, full body racing suits probably make you a little faster, they cost a lot, and they are not dangerous. This may mean they are unethical, because some swimmers can't afford them. But most of us use them.

Creatine may make you a little faster, the amount needed for meet preparation costs a few bucks, and it's not dangerous. By comparison, that sounds pretty ethical to me.
I think we see it the same way. I think that fastskins are like the BMW's of swimgear not neccessarily a status symbol but something that is price prohibitve for some. The analogy of the cost of a good golf club to an avid golfer as being comparable to a FS as a justification for buying one is true, but golf clubs are cost prohibitive to some too.

Chris Stevenson
December 18th, 2007, 01:32 PM
There is some serious unwarranted paranoia here about creatine. There are two basic facts about creatine supplementation:

1. It enhances short duration exercise performance
2. It has never been shown to have a negative health effect.

"Never been shown to have a negative effect" is not the same thing as not having one. The exact same thing was once said of both cigarettes and asbestos, and many things since then. I am not saying creatine is as bad as those, just that "absence of proof is not proof of absence." It can be notoriously difficult to "prove" chronic effects, especially if they are subtle.

There really are no shortcuts. Best things you can do to enhance performance? It isn't very sexy: eat well, drink fluids, and don't skimp on your sleep (something I unfortunately do regularly).

There are certainly grey areas. Anything I take has to be for my health, not for training benefits. The question I would ask myself is, "would I take this if I weren't competing?" If the answer is no, then I won't touch the stuff.

Why risk it? What exactly is the payoff supposed to be? I can't understand it...isn't this supposed to be for fun and health?

The Fortress
December 18th, 2007, 01:57 PM
"Never been shown to have a negative effect" is not the same thing as not having one. The exact same thing was once said of both cigarettes and asbestos, and many things since then. I am not saying creatine is as bad as those, just that "absence of proof is not proof of absence." It can be notoriously difficult to "prove" chronic effects, especially if they are subtle.

There really are no shortcuts. Best things you can do to enhance performance? It isn't very sexy: eat well, drink fluids, and don't skimp on your sleep (something I unfortunately do regularly).

There are certainly grey areas. Anything I take has to be for my health, not for training benefits. The question I would ask myself is, "would I take this if I weren't competing?" If the answer is no, then I won't touch the stuff.

Why risk it? What exactly is the payoff supposed to be? I can't understand it...isn't this supposed to be for fun and health?

My sentiments exactly!

Stud: Many people cannot afford massages, stretchers, gym memberships, chiros, etc. Also many people have jobs and kids and can't train as much as those without. There will never be a truly level playing field. Plus, technical suits have been around forever. They're part of the sport.

fatboy
December 18th, 2007, 02:11 PM
[QUOTE=Chris Stevenson;117262The question I would ask myself is, "would I take this if I weren't competing?" If the answer is no, then I won't touch the stuff.

Why risk it? What exactly is the payoff supposed to be? I can't understand it...isn't this supposed to be for fun and health?[/QUOTE]

Chris, This distills a lot into a simple rule of thumb. Great

craiglll@yahoo.com
December 18th, 2007, 03:02 PM
It does seem to me that if you have problems, as I said earlier, Creatine is going to screw you up. If you don't have problems maybe it won't. There are two other things I wonder about. Like taking a lot of vitamins, anything your body doesn't use is out wiht the urine or elswhere. How do you know what is the corrrect dosage of Creatine?

I do know that a GI I used t go to siad he never ran behind someone who took Creatine.

SwimStud
December 18th, 2007, 03:04 PM
My sentiments exactly!

Stud: Many people cannot afford massages, stretchers, gym memberships, chiros, etc. Also many people have jobs and kids and can't train as much as those without. There will never be a truly level playing field. Plus, technical suits have been around forever. They're part of the sport.

I think it's moot, the top swimmers mostly have them. Nobody is losing races because they can't afford one.

It's unlikely I'll ever need or want one. I'll just take my top time and think it could be a bit lower. ;)

Nathan
December 18th, 2007, 04:52 PM
If it's proven to be safe and non habitforming then it should be legitimised as a supplement. The issue with steroids is because kids think it's ok and do it..the detrimental risks are too high...

Well, creatine isn't banned, if you count that as legit.

In 2000, my wife said there was only herself and maybe two other athletes on the entire team that were not using creatine. I'm surprised that anyone in board positions of USAS or USMS would consider it cheating.

As far as the negative effects, there are thousands of studies that have shown creatine to be safe and effective in individuals with healthy kidneys. There is additional research that shows in people who are predisposed with kidney ailments, that it can increase the severity of those problems.

SwimStud
December 18th, 2007, 06:49 PM
Well, creatine isn't banned, if you count that as legit.

In 2000, my wife said there was only herself and maybe two other athletes on the entire team that were not using creatine. I'm surprised that anyone in board positions of USAS or USMS would consider it cheating.

As far as the negative effects, there are thousands of studies that have shown creatine to be safe and effective in individuals with healthy kidneys. There is additional research that shows in people who are predisposed with kidney ailments, that it can increase the severity of those problems.

Nathan, I guess I was trying to say that perhaps folks should not really consider it "cheating" to use it if it is not dangerous etc. The same way as a fastskin helps and is not dangerous...I don't think skins are cheating, they are an artificial aid though...but if everyone is doing it and nobody is getting hurt...so be it. For me it's not the steroids but the fact that it forces others to risk compromising their health and use them too if they want to keep pace.

The Fortress
December 19th, 2007, 09:14 AM
I'm surprised that anyone in board positions of USAS or USMS would consider it cheating.


To quote Rob Copeland:

"I personally believe that creatine should be banned and that anyone who has used it has cheated." (Post # 226, Dara Torres-Amazing thread)

Rob Copeland
December 19th, 2007, 10:44 AM
To quote Rob Copeland:
"I personally believe that creatine should be banned and that anyone who has used it has cheated."Yep, I did say that in response to another post. But this is just my personal belief (Hopefully I’m still allowed to have personal opinions and beliefs), not my “official position.”

I believe athletes take creatine as a supplement for the sole purpose of enhancing performance. The fact that creatine is not banned, makes it a legal supplement. I’ll readily admit I don’t know why WADA bans some supplements while allowing others, but I’m sure they have a much better understanding of this than I do. So I trust they know what they are doing.

I believe I would be cheating myself if I took performance enhancing supplements. But then again, I’m not trying to make the US Olympic team or medal in Beijing, I’m just trying to hang on long enough that I can beat Paul Smith in the 100-104 500 Free.

SwimStud
December 19th, 2007, 10:49 AM
Yep, I did say that in response to another post. But this is just my personal belief (Hopefully I’m still allowed to have personal opinions and beliefs), not my “official position.”

I believe athletes take creatine as a supplement for the sole purpose of enhancing performance. The fact that creatine is not banned, makes it a legal supplement. I’ll readily admit I don’t know why WADA bans some supplements while allowing others, but I’m sure they have a much better understanding of this than I do. So I trust they know what they are doing.

I believe I would be cheating myself if I took performance enhancing supplements. But then again, I’m not trying to make the US Olympic team or medal in Beijing, I’m just trying to hang on long enough that I can beat Paul Smith in the 100-104 500 Free.

Rob do you think fastskins are cheating? It's not a natural product. Of course your opinon is valid. I don't see a big difference in a non harmful supplement (if this is the TRUTH) and a fake sharkskin bodysuit. Admittedly the top guys and girls all have everything so the advantage is negated. The only thing affected is faster records etc. That said records fall over time as training methods and science change. At least that's how I see it.

Warren
December 19th, 2007, 04:49 PM
Yep, I did say that in response to another post. But this is just my personal belief (Hopefully I’m still allowed to have personal opinions and beliefs), not my “official position.”

I believe athletes take creatine as a supplement for the sole purpose of enhancing performance. The fact that creatine is not banned, makes it a legal supplement. I’ll readily admit I don’t know why WADA bans some supplements while allowing others, but I’m sure they have a much better understanding of this than I do. So I trust they know what they are doing.

I believe I would be cheating myself if I took performance enhancing supplements. But then again, I’m not trying to make the US Olympic team or medal in Beijing, I’m just trying to hang on long enough that I can beat Paul Smith in the 100-104 500 Free.

I feel the oposite. I have never taken supplements but I feel like I am cheating my self by not taking them, leagal supplements that is. I don't think that I will take creatine because it seems kind of like an unknown substance that we don't fully know about and could be a health risk. But I don't have a problem with people who do take it becasue when it comes down to it, hard work is the best way to enhance your performance. Muscle milk on the other hand seems safe and can legally enhance one's performcace so I don't see any reason not to take it other than the price...

Nathan
December 19th, 2007, 09:59 PM
I feel the oposite. I have never taken supplements but I feel like I am cheating my self by not taking them, leagal supplements that is. I don't think that I will take creatine because it seems kind of like an unknown substance that we don't fully know about and could be a health risk. But I don't have a problem with people who do take it becasue when it comes down to it, hard work is the best way to enhance your performance. Muscle milk on the other hand seems safe and can legally enhance one's performcace so I don't see any reason not to take it other than the price...

I believe creatine was first pinpointed in the early 1830's and has been taken for supplemental value since the mid 1920's. It's certainly not unknown, and is perhaps the most studied sports supplement behind a multi-vitamin, but like anything, make sure you do your own personal research before giving something the go-ahead.

The Fortress
December 19th, 2007, 11:04 PM
But this is just my personal belief (Hopefully I’m still allowed to have personal opinions and beliefs), not my “official position.”


Yes, please don't stop. That would be boring and so not the point of this forum.

I don't know. If it's legal, it can't be cheating. Maybe Warren's right that not taking legal supplements is cheating yourself. I'd love to know how many masters are taking creatine. Given the compulsiveness of many swimmers, I'd say there are quite a few ...

Me, I won't take it. The side effects alone send me running. Um, water retention and weight gain and whatever -- no thanks! My liver has enough to do processing all of my allergy RX meds and occasional sleep meds. I don't need more crap in my system. And I like to breathe.

knelson
December 19th, 2007, 11:56 PM
In 2000, my wife said there was only herself and maybe two other athletes on the entire team that were not using creatine.

Is she taking creatine now? ...and I understand if you'd rather not comment.

She had some nice swims at the Pro-Am meet. Congratulate her for us!

Nathan
December 20th, 2007, 12:15 AM
Is she taking creatine now? ...and I understand if you'd rather not comment.

She had some nice swims at the Pro-Am meet. Congratulate her for us!

I don't mind saying. She doesn't take it. She only takes supplements from a company called Bio-Genesis, because we have it in writing that they absolutely guarantee purity. They don't make creatine, though, so it isn't in her regime. She's a--rightfully so--paranoid athlete.

And on the Pro-Am kind words, she says, "Thanks so much!"

Slowswim
December 20th, 2007, 02:24 PM
I have heard some great things about Bio-Builde. Supposedly, its packed with partial protein chains so it breaks down the food you've eaten faster and more completely.

Anyone have an opinion on it?

craiglll@yahoo.com
December 20th, 2007, 04:00 PM
[QUOTE=Jazz Hands;117253]There is some serious unwarranted paranoia here about creatine. There are two basic facts about creatine supplementation:


While what you say may be very true in a generaly way, creatine can cause serious digestive disorders. If you have digestive problems, you shouldn't take it. I spoke wiht a friend who works for the Food 7 Drug. she is a Registered Diatition(sp) and she says that creatine generally and maybe legally, she didn't know for sure, is to have a warning about gas, diarrhea and other problems. I looked at all of th ebrands at GNC. they were all labelled with some type of warning.

I am very worried about the attitude so many of us in this country have towrards supplements. We assume that since they haven't hurt us, thye won't in the future and then they won't others. Most supplements are never scientifically proven to do what they say they do. Even thosee that have been "studied." I haven't gone throught he two sites you list. But I have looked at other creatine sites. they are mostly anecdotal and meaIingless.

i have heard that US swimmers have the most expensive pee in the world.

Chris Stevenson
December 20th, 2007, 05:43 PM
I am very worried about the attitude so many of us in this country have towrards supplements.

Amen to that. This discussion will probably not change anyone's mind about creatine. There are two very different approaches to the whole risk-benefit of creatine:

#1: There is little or no risk (unless you have kidney or GI problems), so why not?
#2: There is little or no benefit to me, so why risk it?

I fall squarely in camp #2 because creatine, even if worked as advertised, will do nothing to enhance my enjoyment of training and competing in USMS. My problematic knees do not need the weight gain, either.

Since I am uninterested in creatine I am not going to spend much time scanning through the scientific literature. But a quick search (thru SciFinder Scholar) on the chronic effects of creatine supplements yielded only 69 hits, out of thousands for creatine supplementation itself. I found the following interesting and offer it to you (italics are mine):

********snip************
Creatine supplementation in health and disease: What is the evidence for long-term efficacy? Derave, Wim; Eijnde, Bert O.; Hespel, Peter. Faculty of Physical Education and Physiotherapy, Department of Kinesiology, Exercise Physiology and Biomechanics Laboratory, Catholic University of Leuven, Louvain, Belg. Molecular and Cellular Biochemistry (2003), 244(1&2), 49-55.

Abstract
A review. Creatine supplementation is an established ergogenic aid in sports and is now claimed to have therapeutical applications in a variety of diseases. The available literature mainly covers the short-term (one to several weeks) effects of creatine supplementation on skeletal muscle function in health and disease, which is of little help to evaluate the long-term (two or more months) potential of creatine as a drug in chronic disorders, such as neurodegenerative diseases or muscular dystrophies. Recent findings in healthy humans indicate that the beneficial effect on muscle function and muscle total creatine content may disappear when creatine is continuously ingested for more than two or three months. The mechanism for this habituation to chronic creatine exposure is poorly understood. The primary purpose of the present review article is to critically evaluate the available evidence for long-term efficacy of creatine administration and to hypothesize about ways to optimize creatine administration regimens.
********snip************

"The mechanism of habituation to chronic exposure is poorly understood." Again, I did not do an exhaustive search. But if chronic effects were poorly understood in 2003 I very much doubt they are completely understood at this time.

If you want to perform experiments on yourself, please go right ahead, just don't kid yourself. My own suggestion is that if you need creatine supplements for legitimate health reasons (and there are some) then the risk-benefit changes substantially. But to drop time in a master meet? And possibly not even that, if the effects wear off?

Okay, enough time on :soapbox: (sorry, the smileys are cute, aren't they?)