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RecreationalSwimmer
November 4th, 2007, 02:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUOl-XKMPZc

June 16, 2000. Russian swimmer Alexander Popov sets the world record for the men's 50m LC freestyle with a mark of 21.64s. As of 2007 Popov still holds the record.

The mark was achieved not in a regular race but in a time trial.

This video was posted originally in the short-lived site www.swimvideo.ru (http://www.swimvideo.ru). Probably you won't find it elsewhere on the web.

Warren
November 4th, 2007, 03:55 PM
A great swim, but it should not be a world record becasue it wasn't done in a real compitition.

Glider
November 4th, 2007, 06:40 PM
A great swim, but it should not be a world record becasue it wasn't done in a real compitition.
Hmmm...kinda looks like him. Any documentation on this time trial?:thhbbb::duel:

Paul Smith
November 4th, 2007, 08:31 PM
A great swim, but it should not be a world record becasue it wasn't done in a real compitition.

Warren..please answer these simple questions:

1) How many time trails have you swam in?
2) How many of these were set up solely for you to attempt to break a record...any record?
3) how many age group, USS, Masters or world records have you held?

Sorry to sound harsh...but unless you've stepped up there with several dozen people and watches set on you and can tell me its "easier" than doing it in head to head racing than I'm afraid your comment doesn't hold water...so to speak.

We each have strengths and weaknesses....time trails amy be easier for some but not always...

meldyck
November 4th, 2007, 08:43 PM
Well, I can see that Paul hasn't been force-fed his daily dose of cod liver oil yet today. We'll take care of that next weekend and he'll mellow out, Warren.

scyfreestyler
November 4th, 2007, 09:01 PM
Not a real competition? Oh, I get it...that was a synthetic race.

swimr4life
November 4th, 2007, 09:07 PM
What an amazing swim! Look at the wake he leaves behind!

smontanaro
November 4th, 2007, 10:32 PM
I believe when Roger Bannister ran the first sub-4-minute mile it was just such an "arranged" time trial. As long as the race is recognized by the relevant sanctioning body I see no reason it shouldn't be counted as a record.

Skip Montanaro

david.margrave
November 5th, 2007, 02:20 AM
The commentary said he went the whole 50 meters on one breath.

Frank Thompson
November 5th, 2007, 09:04 AM
Recreation Swimmer:

Thanks for posting the race. I did not realize that other swimmers were in the race at the time trial on both sides of the open lanes. This is exactly the situation in 1991 at the Sprint Classic that was on National TV. Tom Jager and Matt Biondi swam a lane a part when they both broke the World Record and were the first swimmers to go under :22 in the 50 meter Free in this time trial setting. However in the final, they were the only two swimmers in the pool.

Rather than take a trip down memory lane, I have provided a link to discussions that we had on this very subject almost 2 years ago.

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=5672&highlight=time+trial

Paul Smith
November 5th, 2007, 09:37 AM
Well, I can see that Paul hasn't been force-fed his daily dose of cod liver oil yet today. We'll take care of that next weekend and he'll mellow out, Warren.

Mel.....Laura has been saying the same thing lately so i guess 'll have to watch my back next weekend at the meet?!

But come! Warren made a pretty "bold" statement there you have to agree? I mean calling one of the greatest swims/records on the books invalid because it wasn't a "real competition"? I think that needs to be challenged and I think someone making a judgement like that needs to qualify their personal understanding of "racing".

Don't just assume that a TT is "easier"...

quicksilver
November 5th, 2007, 10:10 AM
That time trial looked pretty official. Timers dressed in white...in each lane.

Thanks for posting that. The small wave trailing behind them is incredible.

Frank Thompson
November 5th, 2007, 10:14 AM
Mel.....Laura has been saying the same thing lately so i guess 'll have to watch my back next weekend at the meet?!

But come! Warren made a pretty "bold" statement there you have to agree? I mean calling one of the greatest swims/records on the books invalid because it wasn't a "real competition"? I think that needs to be challenged and I think someone making a judgement like that needs to qualify their personal understanding of "racing".

Don't just assume that a TT is "easier"...

Paul:

Warren explained his thoughts about why he did not think it was a real competition in the link I provided. I think that his statement was heavily influenced by what Gary Hall Jr. said over at the Race Club website about this particular World Record swim. I have linked the discussion we had about 9 months starting at post #22 and there seems to be a better understanding now since the you tube video was posted. There were more than 2 swimmers in the pool. Its great that we can see this World Record for the first time here in the USA because I don't ever remember seeing this on TV or news clips.

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=7578&page=2

Paul Smith
November 5th, 2007, 10:23 AM
Paul:

Warren explained his thoughts about why he did not think it was a real competition in the link I provided. I think that his statement was heavily influenced by what Gary Hall Jr. said over at the Race Club website about this particular World Record swim. I have linked the discussion we had about 9 months starting at post #22 and there seems to be a better understanding now since the you tube video was posted. There were more than 2 swimmers in the pool. Its great that we can see this World Record for the first time here in the USA because I don't ever remember seeing this on TV or news clips.

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=7578&page=2

Frank...TT's are common and unless they are done in a pool that is shorter than it should be or the clock was ticking a little slower that day or the meet wasn't sanctioned, or he false started I still say that the time is the time.

scyfreestyler
November 5th, 2007, 10:32 AM
Frank...TT's are common and unless they are done in a pool that is shorter than it should be or the clock was ticking a little slower that day or the meet wasn't sanctioned, or he false started I still say that the time is the time.


Who is it that says "The clock does not lie"? That's right, it's Warren! :woot:

quicksilver
November 5th, 2007, 10:46 AM
In Warren's defense, and his avatar too...This was clearly a cold war maneuver to mess with Gary Hall's head.

Notice how the end of the video cuts right to Popov's lane...as he taunts Gary by spitting water at the camera. :D

Jeff Commings
November 5th, 2007, 11:41 AM
As Frank mentioned, this isn't the first time a 50 free world record has been set in a non-meet format. Gary's only upset because he formerly had the second-fastest time in history.

Roland Schoeman, who is now the second-fastest man, has never publicly said anything against the swim. I think he wishes he could do the same thing.

Frank Thompson
November 5th, 2007, 12:37 PM
Frank...TT's are common and unless they are done in a pool that is shorter than it should be or the clock was ticking a little slower that day or the meet wasn't sanctioned, or he false started I still say that the time is the time.

I agree. But I also think thru the last 20 years this has been a very controversial subject. The obvious case of this is when Peter Williams set the World Record in a Time Trial the day after the 1988 NCAA Championships on 4-10-88. About 15 days prior to this at the Nationals in Orlando, Tom Jager broke his own WR in the 50 Meter Free of :22.32 and went a :22.23 swimming against Matt Biondi who went :22.42 in this 8 swimmer heat. Peter Williams competed at the NCAA Championships and didn't final in the 50 Yard Free and went :19.89 and swam to first in the consolation heat at :19.78 swimming for Nebraska. The day after the meet the bulkheads were moved back and swimming in a time trial 50 meter Free all by himself he went :22.18 to break Tom Jager's 15 day record. There was a lot of outcry about this swim because the SCY time really didn't match up to the LCM time. Tom Jager and Matt Biondi critized this World Record if it were to stand.

At that time South Africa was an apartheid nation and there was a rumor that the record would not count for that reason. There were sensionalized stories about the conditions of the race and the swim was bogus. I happen to talk to Dale Neuburger about this about 4 weeks ago and he was there at IUPUI Natatorioum when this swim took place and said every FINA requirement was made in this World Record breaking swim. Peter Williams was not very big or tall and that would probably explain the reason why his short course swim did not match this World Record effort.

FINA was suppose to review this and render a decision. A decision was not made by the 1988 Olympics and there Matt Biondi broke the record by .04 with a :22.14 and won the gold medal in the 50 Meter Free. Peter Williams did not swim in the Olympics because South Africa was banned then. To this day the swim was never recognized as a World Record but remains in lists of the top 100 times of all time for the 50 Meter Free. Most people assume that because FINA did not count this as a World Record that it was because he was from the country of South Africa and not because it was from a time trial. Others think with the public outcry that maybe FINA did not want to count this swim from the time trial as a World Record. There was never a press release explaining any of this and it was just kind of forgotten. I believe that in the modern era of FINA World Records since 1957, that Peter Williams would be the only swimmer in history to be discriminated against getting a World Record because of this.

Maybe Peter Williams can petiton FINA to have his time reinstated as a World Record from 4-10-88 to 9-24-88 when Matt Biondi broke it. I still remember the outcry from people about the swim even though both Tom Jager and Matt Biondi swam in a very similar situation in Nashville 3 years later.

Warren was echoing people over at the Race Club about Time Trial swims here http://www.theraceclub.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=443#443

Warren
November 5th, 2007, 03:55 PM
It doesn't matter if time trails are easier or harder than a real race because thatís a matter of opinion that differs among swimmers. Personally, I think it is harder to go faster in a time trial but other swimmers would say the opposite. There seems to be a lot of grey area with the legitimacy of these time trails. Whoís to say that Popov didnít have an advantage that he wouldnít have had in a real competition. I mean he didnít have anyone in the lanes next to him. He probable arranged or had a say in that decision. He could have said put two swimmers next to me. In a race he would not have been able to do that.

Some people say: well he went 50 meters faster than anyone before. This is true but Libby Lenton went 52.99 in a 100 free in a relay lead off. However, FINA doesnít recognize this record because it is not a sanctioned event because it was a mixed relay. Did she not go 100 meters faster than any women before? Some argue that she might have gotten a draft off of Phelps but it is uncertain because Phelps was so far ahead and there has yet to be any proof of how much of an advantage she gained. In that other thread that you were talking about time trials in, Ande said that he was in the stands for when Rowdy Gains was going for the 100 WR and that in heat where he missed it, William Paulus broke the world record in the 100 m fly in the same heat. Now I donít know the exact situation but either there was a possibility of him getting a draft off the freestylers or there was a lane of separation which is still an advantage because he wouldnít have hit their wave when they came off the wall.

So where do you draw the line. These time trails do not simulate real race situations. Why does FINA not recognize Libby Lentonís time as a world record but they did when William Paulus Broke the 100 fly record, there is not 100 free/fly event. Either itís a 100 free in which case Paulusís time would count as a 100 free time or itís a 100 fly which would DQ Rowdy for swimming free. There is too much grey area with the recognition of time trials and until FINA can draw clear lines then Popovís time is not a legit WR in my book.

DanSad
November 5th, 2007, 04:22 PM
Also, for time trials you're most likely not swimming in qualifying heats. In a meet you'll typically have swim a few qualifying heats prior to the final and thus may be slightly fatigued.

Frank Thompson
November 5th, 2007, 04:25 PM
Warren:

Are you sure you read the thread right about Rowdy Gaines and William Paulus? I don't think William Paulus swam in the same heat with Rowdy because I believe that would be illegal. The Goodsmith swam with Rowdy in one of the swims at the time trials and I believe it was the World Record swim, but I believe everyone in the heat was swimming the same stroke which in this case would be the 100 Meter Free. I believe Ande made reference to the fact that both swimmers broke the World Record at the same time trial, not the same heat. Here is Ande being quoted:

"I was there in the stands, I think it happened a week after 1981 NCAA's

on his first attempt Rowdy went out too hard, it was exciting to watch

at the same time trial William Paulus broke the world record in the 100 m fly think he went 53.87."

Ande

In time trial swims, they run the events just like they do in the Meet. There is no mixing of strokes and its run in the same format. The Libby Lenton situation is different because of the technical rules of FINA. Meaning that there is no such an event as a Mixed Relay and therefore a World Record cannot be set if the event is not defined in the rule book. Absolutely no one has ever said that she did not perform the World Record swim in a race, because it was there to be seen by millions on TV. But FINA did not want to set a precedent here which is to include World Records swims in events not defined in the FINA rule book.