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TheGoodSmith
November 5th, 2007, 05:21 PM
I noticed that Natalie Coughlin kicks underwater dolphin kick on her side for the 100m fly SCM recently. I have always felt it was easier to kick on your side or kick on your back. Why it is easier than face down, I don't know. Perhaps it is physics...... perhaps it's just my own inability. I didn't know it was legal to kick all the way on your side on fly.

This sport has changed too much. There's too much "cheatin" going on now. I can't handle it..... :-)


John Smith

Paul Smith
November 5th, 2007, 05:28 PM
Misty Hyman was the first person I remember seeing kick this way.....

JS....maybe if you had feet bigger than Samantha's it may actually help when you kicked!

TheGoodSmith
November 5th, 2007, 06:01 PM
Small hands.... small feet......... whatever....... it's the hip motion that counts........... i.e. for dolphin kick.

John Smith

mattson
November 5th, 2007, 07:13 PM
I have always felt it was easier to kick on your side or kick on your back. Why it is easier than face down, I don't know.

My dolphin kick still doesn't work :drown: , but I can think of a reason for the difference (in my case, maybe yours too?). On my stomach or back, I sometimes bend at the waist and not notice it (not very streamlined). On my side, since the balance is different, I do notice if I'm jackknifing.

thewookiee
November 6th, 2007, 11:25 AM
I find it easier to kick on my stomach or slightly rotated on myside. I keep working on the kick on my back but it still isn't that good. When I rotate up on my side a bit, the underwater kick starts to get better for backstroke.

ande
November 6th, 2007, 11:56 AM
I feel faster on my back than belly
but I think people get good at whatever they practice

in longer kicking sets I prefer kicking on my side,
arms by my side
left arm down
it actually feels funny when i kick on my side with my right arm down

ande


I noticed that Natalie Coughlin kicks underwater dolphin kick on her side for the 100m fly SCM recently. I have always felt it was easier to kick on your side or kick on your back. Why it is easier than face down, I don't know. Perhaps it is physics...... perhaps it's just my own inability. I didn't know it was legal to kick all the way on your side on fly.

This sport has changed too much. There's too much "cheatin" going on now. I can't handle it..... :-)


John Smith

SwimStud
November 6th, 2007, 12:02 PM
SDK on my back is by far the best technique I have.

I think that it's to do with the head and gravity assisting the downward movement of the head (when on your back). You engage your abs to raise your head.

When on your front you have to use the back muscles to lift the weight of the head.

With my back issues this could be just something that I have found, but I think the abs and the body bend forward (contracting abs) easier than hyperextending--in a normally fit person.

Do all work mindfully on the weak points. You have no excuse if even I SDK front, back, and sides!
;)

jmeyer
November 13th, 2007, 12:56 PM
I've been told that elite swimmers kick on their sides on the push-off because that way you don't get waves reflected from the bottom of the pool. The idea is that in shallow pools, a wave from a dolphin kick gets bounced off the bottom back up to the swimmer, slowing them down. In deep pools, I don't see how this would matter. It's hard for me to see how it would matter even in shallow pools, but then again I'm not at Natalie's level.

The Fortress
November 14th, 2007, 06:55 PM
Easier for me on my stomach or side. But I'm working on my back SDKs. Not bad on the start; turns need improvement.

Questions:

1. Is there any physical trait which predisposes someone to be good at SDK-ing?

2. Is SDK-ing really "in" as I saw someone mention in another thread? Aside from the super elite USS swimmers and some other exceptions, I don't see that many masters or age groupers SDK-ing.

3. How can you improve your SDKs off the turns as a race goes on? Is this just practice? How much SDK-ing is ideal to avoid oxygen debt? I guess this must be an individual thing ...

4. Is there anyone besides Ande SDK-ing say, more than 2x or so, on their back or side off freestyle turns?

smontanaro
November 14th, 2007, 07:11 PM
I've been trying to work it into my swims. I think it helped a lot when I did the 10k postal swim. A couple kicks off each wall and I was well past the backstroke flags by the time I took my first breath. I think it probably saved me a stroke or two on each 50m. It didn't seem to help me so much with my 3000 and 6000 postals (swum SCY). I used it on my 3000 and felt pretty ragged the entire time, never really caught my breath. A week later I did the 6000 and dropped the SDK midway through the swim (again, feeling a bit ragged around 2500-3000 yds). I just couldn't recover completely from the little bit of added hypoxia before it was time to make the next turn. This wasn't a problem swimming long course.

Skip Montanaro

FlyQueen
November 14th, 2007, 07:12 PM
My SDK is better on my back but I have been working on it on my stomach a lot recently and noticed improvement. I TRY to take at least 3 SDKs off of every wall. I'm working up to 5 and eventually 8 or so. For me personally I SDK faster than I swim and since I sprint I don't need to worry too much about oxygen debt.

I have been working on doing one SDK on my back then rotating to my side to SDK and finally my stomach. This is obviously for free only. For fly I usually SDK on my side a bit first. I BELIEVE that you can SDK on your side as long as you aren't rotated past vertical - i.e., your shoulder cannot be perpendicular (90 degrees) completely to the water.

rtodd
November 14th, 2007, 07:35 PM
1. Is there any physical trait which predisposes someone to be good at SDK-ing?

I think you need a very healthy flexible lower back.

BillS
November 14th, 2007, 09:19 PM
I was bored yesterday, so I swam some 25's with varying numbers of SDKs on the breakout just 'cuz. All were free from a push. First I did a no kick breakout, then one with one SDK, then 2, 3, etc. up to 7. Effort was moderate -- not really trying to simulate race conditions, but not trying to be perfect or smooth, either. I didn't time anything, but I did try and keep track of where I broke out.

I reached a point of diminishing to zero return at 2 or 3. I got neither distance nor any perceived speed benefit out of taking 4, 5, 6, or 7 kicks. 2 or 3 got me a little further down the lane and got me up and on top ready to swim better than no SDK at all, or a flutter.

I tried 6 & 7 kicks a couple of times trying to decrease the kick amplitude and increase the kick velocity with no real effect.

I tried a couple of fast turns with 2 SDKs after the turn. I come off the wall on my left side, so I kicked the first SDK on my side while transitioning to flat. The side ones felt pretty good, and natural to put in at that point.

My SDK is pretty weak. It generally takes me 21 - 23 kicks to cover 25 meters. My flutter is worse, though.

I concluded that I should stick to 3 off the start and 2 off turns in the 50/100for now. I think I'll gain more benefit by concentrating on streamlining and not breathing first stroke in longer races.

As always, your mileage will undoubtedly vary.

aquaFeisty
November 14th, 2007, 11:03 PM
1. Is there any physical trait which predisposes someone to be good at SDK-ing?
same things that are good for flutter kicking, I would think (flexible floppy ankles, hips that angle 'in' vs. 'out' like for breast) plus it prob helps to have knees that hyperextend and the ability to get your shoulders and upper back into a really good streamline. core strength is good too, but anyone can develop core strength. toes that actually point and hips that turn in are another matter...



2. Is SDK-ing really "in" as I saw someone mention in another thread? Aside from the super elite USS swimmers and some other exceptions, I don't see that many masters or age groupers SDK-ing.
our coach often stresses it during practice, but this is new... like within the past 2 years. I don't often see it much at meets, but I'm not looking much either.



3. How can you improve your SDKs off the turns as a race goes on? Is this just practice? How much SDK-ing is ideal to avoid oxygen debt? I guess this must be an individual thing ...
practice, practice, practice. and yep, everyone probably has their own break-even point between sdks and O2 debt



4. Is there anyone besides Ande SDK-ing say, more than 2x or so, on their back or side off freestyle turns?
I take 2-3 kicks total. I guess the 1st one is on my back and #2/3 are on my side. I'm fluttering by the time I'm on my stomach.

I have a pathetic, paltry sdk (takes me 15 kicks to get to the middle of a 25 yd pool) yet with 2-3 sdks, a good streamline and a hard pushoff the wall I rarely take my first stroke before the flags. I might toy with using SDK's in the 50 and 100 again this year at some in-season meets but for me I think it's faster to flutter up and go (refer to pathetic paltry comment above). However, I'll continue to do my sdks in training because the oxygen debt practice is good and it improves focus on my streamline.

Syd
November 14th, 2007, 11:22 PM
However, I'll continue to do my sdks in training because the oxygen debt practice is good and it improves focus on my streamline.

Will oxygen debt practice make you fitter? If it does then that would be enough reason to practice SDKs while training even if you don't plan on using it in a race.

I have discovered that SDKing requires far more core strength than I had previously imagined. One way of improving your core strength in the pool is to do lots of fly.

Also that rhythm is so important, too. Some learn it more quickly than others.

Finally, while your SDK might not be good enough to use in a meet now, it doesn't mean that it will always be that way. I see no reason why everyone (barring serious physical abnormalities) can't use it as effectively as Phelps or Crocker. I am sure they practice it on every turn at every session. I think it requires massive amounts of practice. Perhaps a way to do this is to start off by doing at least one SDK on every turn and then, slowly, build it up to two, three, etc.

Syd

aquaFeisty
November 15th, 2007, 08:00 AM
the oxygen debt is a mental thing with me. I've taken 7 breaths on a 50 before... in a race! ridiculous, huh? anyways, if I have the mental discipline to not take those breaths in practice, it should carry over to a race where I don't want to breathe for at least 2 full stroke cycles off the wall to maintain momentum.

I agree, one day I might want to use the SDK in a sprint. that's why I will test it out at some in-season meets this winter. we'll see if I actually decide to use it at my shave and taper meet. the last time I tried to sdk in a 50 free, I was the LAST person after the start (and I have a decent start). I do disagree with you that everyone can learn to SDK as effectively as Phelps or Crocker. These guys are world-class... both extremely strong and flexible and have excellent feel for the water. my legs and feet simply don't go the right way to effectively move water with a dolphin kick but I'm going to keep practicing and hopefully improve it to an asset not a liability. I've got a great natural whip kick, though... :)

re: the core strength, you're right! however, I've found that doing sdks off each turn helps my fly, not the other way around. if you do 2-3 sdks off every turn, you can get in an awful lot of dolphin kicking without realizing it. my fly is much better as a result.