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TheGoodSmith
November 7th, 2007, 10:46 AM
Another swimmer bites the dust. She says its from her ovarian disease . . . . . pay no attention to the synthetic qualities of testosterone that was reported to be found in her sample. Don't know if I'd want to arm "wrastle" this woman.


http://grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation/2007/11/swimmer-gusmoa-.html


"Brazilian swimmer Rebeca Gusmoa suspended for steroids
She won 2 Pan Am Games gold medals, plus a silver and a bronze. She looks like the Incredible Hulk. And, she used synthetic testosterone. Check out her photos; which is the off-cycle?

Summing governing body FINA announced the doping suspensions of Brazil's Rebeca Gusmao. The International Herald carries the story."

funkyfish
November 7th, 2007, 11:20 AM
Wow, at first I thought the pic was a joke. After reading the article, I'm curious as to why she has not sought treatment? She almost puts Bev Francis to shame.

ande
November 7th, 2007, 11:27 AM
Rebeca Gusmao is one muscular woman, reminds me a little of Angel Martino.
http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&svnum=100&hl=en&safe=active&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=%22Rebeca+Gusmao%22&spell=1


Another swimmer bites the dust. She says its from her ovarian disease . . . . . pay no attention to the synthetic qualities of testosterone that was reported to be found in her sample. Don't know if I'd want to arm "wrastle" this woman.


http://grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation/2007/11/swimmer-gusmoa-.html


"Brazilian swimmer Rebeca Gusmoa suspended for steroids
She won 2 Pan Am Games gold medals, plus a silver and a bronze. She looks like the Incredible Hulk. And, she used synthetic testosterone. Check out her photos; which is the off-cycle?

Summing governing body FINA announced the doping suspensions of Brazil's Rebeca Gusmao. The International Herald carries the story."

knelson
November 7th, 2007, 11:46 AM
If I recall correctly Martino failed a drug test in 1988 and blamed it on birth control pills. Yeah.

Has any drug cheat in the history of sport ever actually admitted they cheated?

jonblank
November 7th, 2007, 12:34 PM
[QUOTE=TheGoodSmith;113556]Another swimmer bites the dust. She says its from her ovarian disease . . . . . pay no attention to the synthetic qualities of testosterone that was reported to be found in her sample. Don't know if I'd want to arm "wrastle" this woman.[QUOTE]

With the recent IOC decision (this is not a joke, by the way), all this may become moot. Declare yourself male or female, and the IOC will concur. Remember the Renee Richards/Richard Raskind tennis controversy? Well, now even the IOC is "politically correct".

:cheerleader::banana:

Here's the gist of the IOC's policy:
(from "Olympics' transgender quandary
Debate rages on the fairness of new inclusion rule", Rona Marech, San Francisco Chronicle Staff Writer, Monday, June 14, 2004)

"Last month, the International Olympic Committee enacted a policy on transsexuals before an elite athlete could force the question. The committee said transgender athletes could compete in the Olympics if they met certain requirements, such as completing genital reconstructive surgery and at least two years of hormonal therapy. The IOC also requires that "legal recognition of their assigned sex has been conferred by the appropriate official authorities," such as by a nation's courts.

The committee's medical director, Patrick Schamasch, said the policy was designed "more to protect the athlete who has not been sex reassigned than to help the person who is." If an athlete follows the new rules, he said, "we are almost sure that the advantage of the previous gender will have completely disappeared."

I read in the Journal of Irreproducible Results that one of the Smiths was considering hormonal therapy as a route to ultimate genital reconstructive surgery. Is this true? :duel:

ALM
November 7th, 2007, 12:37 PM
Has any drug cheat in the history of sport ever actually admitted they cheated?

Marion Jones did, didn't she? And I may be mistaken about this, but I think that Ben Johnson might have.

Anna Lea

quicksilver
November 7th, 2007, 12:43 PM
Thanks for the pic. That should have come with a waring label.
Almost sprayed coffee onto the monitor.


Her photo from 2003 shows more of a feminine side...before she grew a pair of...bigger ovaries. :cheerleader:

poolraat
November 7th, 2007, 12:52 PM
They don't even look like the same person. The way she looks now makes me look puny by comparison.

Blackbeard's Peg
November 7th, 2007, 12:57 PM
The way her eyes are somewhat closed in the Good Smith's thumbnail photo, she looks like Mike Tyson after a fight. Definetely a very masculine look with the size of those guns.

SwimStud
November 7th, 2007, 01:00 PM
The way her eyes are somewhat closed in the Good Smith's thumbnail photo, she looks like Mike Tyson after a fight. Definetely a very masculine look with the size of those guns.

Jeff, you're way intimidated huh?? ;)

pwolf66
November 7th, 2007, 01:09 PM
Intimidated? Heck, she SCARES me. She's got bigger arms than I do.

Paul

knelson
November 7th, 2007, 01:50 PM
Marion Jones did, didn't she? And I may be mistaken about this, but I think that Ben Johnson might have.

Yes, both did eventually. I think Ben initially denied it, but I could be wrong. Marion is a slightly different case since she never actually tested positive, so she really had nothing definitive to deny.

TheGoodSmith
November 7th, 2007, 03:11 PM
Knelson,

You bring up an interesting point. Marion is a cheat but never tested positive. The tests are obviously insufficient to catch the smart users. What are we to believe in the public anymore about any great athlete? Does that mean Lance is probably a cheat since his sport is rumored to be worse than swimming in terms of drug abuse? Can we really make claims anymore that any athlete is truly "clean"? Or can we merely state that individuals "passed" their drug tests. How do we really know who is "real" anymore.

With full body suits and tattoos for both genders, who on this forum can honestly tell if this next shot is of a man or a woman?


John Smith

ALM
November 7th, 2007, 03:33 PM
Other swimming news...



Phelps trips, falls while getting into car: Michael Phelps is sleek and swift churning laps in a pool. Moving on dry land can be tougher for the eight-time Olympic medalist.

He tripped and fell while getting into a car two weeks ago in Ann Arbor, Mich., where he is training for the 2008 Beijing Games. Phelps tried to brace himself with his right hand and ended up breaking a small bone in his wrist.

"I'm a fish out of water," he said, smiling. "I'm a clumsy person."

Phelps, 22, said he will test his repaired wrist during a meet in Atlanta late this month.

quicksilver
November 7th, 2007, 03:52 PM
This photo of her was listed among the Google images which ande linked in to his post.





Bad skin is one the side effects of steroid abuse.
And clearly she's showing signs of that...aside from the pumped up muscles.

scyfreestyler
November 7th, 2007, 04:31 PM
Knelson,

You bring up an interesting point. Marion is a cheat but never tested positive. The tests are obviously insufficient to catch the smart users. What are we to believe in the public anymore about any great athlete? Does that mean Lance is probably a cheat since his sport is rumored to be worse than swimming in terms of drug abuse? Can we really make claims anymore that any athlete is truly "clean"? Or can we merely state that individuals "passed" their drug tests. How do we really know who is "real" anymore.
With full body suits and tattoos for both genders, who on this forum can honestly tell if this next shot is of a man or a woman?


John Smith

Unfortunately, you will not know with any degree of certainty who is real and who is not.

swimr4life
November 7th, 2007, 04:48 PM
This photo of her was listed among the Google images which ande linked in to his post.





Bad skin is one the side effects of steroid abuse.
And clearly she's showing signs of that...aside from the pumped up muscles.

She is definitely a muscular, masculine looking woman and suspect for steroid abuse!! But....in her defense, increased acne is also a symptom of polycystic ovary disease.
:dunno:

scyfreestyler
November 7th, 2007, 04:56 PM
Somebody here should volunteer to start a doping/suspected doping elite swimmer list.

quicksilver
November 7th, 2007, 05:08 PM
She is definitely a muscular, masculine looking woman and suspect for steroid abuse!! But....in her defense, increased acne is also a symptom of polycystic ovary disease.
:dunno:


I have no knowledge about the affliction....and shouldn't have assumed.

However...to play devil's advocate...did she fall ill...and suddenly decide to use synthetic testosterone because it could conveniently be confused with the symptoms of her ailment?

That doesn't sound like the best recovery strategy.

gull
November 7th, 2007, 05:26 PM
Somebody here should volunteer to start a doping/suspected doping elite swimmer list.

How about former elite swimmers who used performance enhancing drugs and are now swimming Masters?

Just out of curiosity, if you were once elite, do you retain that label indefinitely?

scyfreestyler
November 7th, 2007, 05:33 PM
How about former elite swimmers who used performance enhancing drugs and are now swimming Masters?

Just out of curiosity, if you were once elite, do you retain that label indefinitely?


Now that's a list that would attract some webpage hits.

As for elite swimmers retaining their titles lifelong, I don't think so.

ALM
November 7th, 2007, 06:54 PM
--
The federal government has weighed in on "hiding the evidence"...



http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071107/hl_nm/drugs_poop_dc_2;_ylt=AqKFfSvHoBjcayjxXpOQWkcR.3QA
Hide your old pills in poop, government says
November 7, 2007

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Got some leftover drugs -- the kind that someone else might want to use, such as painkillers or stimulants? Wrap them up in used kitty litter or other pet droppings, the government advises.

A pilot program at the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration is looking at ways people can safely dispose of unused prescription drugs that are liable to be abused.

The Food and Drug Administration recommends flushing some of the most dangerous ones down the toilet, including the strong, addictive painkillers oxycodone and fentanyl and stimulants such as methylphenidate. But environmentalists worry about the effects on fish and amphibians.

On its Web site at http://www.samhsa.gov/rxsafety/, SAMHSA recommends ways to disguise leftover pills.

"Mixing prescription drugs with an undesirable substance, such as used coffee grounds or kitty litter, and putting them in impermeable, nondescript containers, such as empty cans or sealable bags, will further ensure the drugs are not diverted," it says.

Of course some people do not drink coffee. But maybe they have a pet ferret. "Ferret waste, like nearly any other form of pet waste, can be effectively used to help prevent the abuse of unused prescription drugs," SAMHSA spokesman Mark Weber said.

This news delighted the American Ferret Association.

"The U.S. government declares ferret poop to be an effective weapon against drug abuse," the group said in a statement....

inklaire
November 7th, 2007, 07:35 PM
--
The federal government has weighed in on "hiding the evidence"...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071107/...jxXpOQWkcR.3QA
Hide your old pills in poop, government says
November 7, 2007

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Got some leftover drugs -- the kind that someone else might want to use, such as painkillers or stimulants? Wrap them up in used kitty litter or other pet droppings, the government advises.



Or, like most rational people, you could drop your leftover drugs off at a pharmacy. :shakeshead:

chaos
November 7th, 2007, 07:38 PM
Or, like most rational people, you could drop your leftover drugs off at a pharmacy. :shakeshead:

i don't believe in leftovers.

ande
November 7th, 2007, 10:34 PM
I showed this picture to my wife
http://globoesporte.globo.com/ESP/Home/foto/0,,11510787,00.jpg

I asked her
what do you think of this swimmer

she said
what about him

I said that's a woman

she said sh!t she's on steroids

swimr4life
November 7th, 2007, 11:58 PM
I showed this picture to my wife
http://globoesporte.globo.com/ESP/Home/foto/0,,11510787,00.jpg

I asked her
what do you think of this swimmer

she said
what about him

I said that's a woman

she said sh!t she's on steroids


:rofl: She definitely looks suspicious in that picture!

3strokes
November 8th, 2007, 06:41 AM
--



The Food and Drug Administration recommends flushing some of the most dangerous ones down the toilet, including the strong, addictive painkillers oxycodone and fentanyl and stimulants such as methylphenidate. But environmentalists worry about the effects on fish and amphibians.


These effects would actually be "good" for the fish. If fish are on pain-killers, they won't feel the hooks and barbs as painfully as they do now, when being fished....................:bolt: and stimulants will give them more of a fighting chance to evade capture.

fanstone
November 8th, 2007, 07:46 AM
She lives about 100 miles from where I live, in Brasilia. Here is the story: promising young sprinter. Has ovarian troubles. Takes medication for ovaries. These would in fact produce some side effects such as acne and some muscle growth, and would show higher testosterone level. The girl gained about 18 lbs of muscle mass. The girl passed out at a local meet about a couple of months ago. The girl was tested and found higher than normal testosterone leves. So far okay, but here is the problem: testosterone was found to be synthetic, not her own. She took some testosterone. Who gave it to her? Her manager is her father. Here we get into not only the legal but the moral and family aspects of doping. Everyone who is in the "know" of athletics or even amateurs like me, when confronted with her before and after pictures at the time of the Pan American Games had doubts as to how she got to be so big and with such muscle growth in about three years. Tis a pity. billy fanstone

ande
November 8th, 2007, 10:40 AM
someone told me she could bench press 140 kilos (308 lbs)
and the brazilian paper ran a front page article where they had her picture next to michael jackson's

Slimmer Bill
November 8th, 2007, 10:54 AM
Showed the kids the before and after pictures last night. They just rolled their eyes at the obvious nature of the cheating.

laineybug
November 9th, 2007, 02:36 PM
When my daughter was in high school, Curt Myers (Angel Myers Martino's father) was her swim coach. Hummmmmm, is my comment. I don't think I ever saw Angel as bulked up as this chick though. Lainey

Stillhere
November 12th, 2007, 12:55 PM
I'm wondering if one of the USA woman's swimmers who is getting on in age will ever "test" positive? And, if she does, will she admit it even when tested positive. I personally believe she hid out in USMS while getting back in swimming shape, and then declared she was going to take one more shot at the Olympics. I do not buy the come back for a second....and like everything in life; everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Until this picture, Michelle Smith's Olympic pictures set the standard in, "Ya right, you're clean; and I'm the Easter Bunny."

:2cents:

TheGoodSmith
November 12th, 2007, 01:19 PM
Stillhere,

You talking about Miss Torres I presume. Interesting hypothesis about "hiding out" in USMS while she comes back and can't be drug tested for an extended period.

John Smith

Rob Copeland
November 12th, 2007, 01:28 PM
When my daughter was in high school, Curt Myers (Angel Myers Martino's father) was her swim coach. Hummmmmm, is my comment. I don't think I ever saw Angel as bulked up as this chick though. LaineyI hope your daughter appreciated how lucky was being able to swim for Kirt Myers, he was a great coach.

And you are right, while Angel spent a lot of time in the weight room she never got that big. And, it is unfortunate that she will be remembered for a positive test back in ’88 and not for her showing of character in ’96…

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a day of swimming firsts, a medal-worthy gesture out of the pool stole the show
by Gerry Callahan

She was the first American at the Centennial Olympics to take home a medal, but she never jumped in the pool. She never even qualified for the competition. All Trisha Henry did was drape a bronze medal around her neck, stand proudly before the world and embody all the best that the Summer Games have to offer.

Henry, a 20-year-old collegiate swimmer from nearby Marietta, Ga., was working as a volunteer on the equipment crew last night at the Georgia Tech Aquatic Center and watched as her friend Angel Martino, a captain of the U.S. women's team and a fellow Georgian, finished third in the 100-meter freestyle. After the awards ceremony Martino sought out Henry and dramatically dragged her onto center stage. Then she gave Henry her medal and told her that she was a hero and an inspiration. On Valentine's Day, Henry was diagnosed with cancer of the ureter, for which she is undergoing chemotherapy.

"Angel just said, 'I want to give this to you,'" said a tearful Henry. "She said, 'I want you to know that I'm thinking of you. I think you're a hero. Keep fighting.'"

Henry has known Martino, 29, for years and as a child attended a local swim camp run by Martino's father, Kirt Myers. She swims at Illinois but keeps in touch with and roots hard for Martino. Henry, whose ureter and a kidney were removed as a result of the cancer, was in the hospital for treatment for three days and wasn't released until yesterday morning, but she vowed that nothing would keep her away from the first day of Olympic competition. "I got up and came to work," she said. "I've been a swimmer since I was 7-1/2. A lot of people burn out on it, but I love it."

Henry specializes in the same events as Martino, who won a bronze in the 50-meter freestyle and was part of a gold medal relay team at the '92 Olympics. …
Last night, with one inspirational gesture, she added an uplifting chapter to her illustrious career.

After briefly analyzing the race for the media, Martino casually mentioned that she was no longer in possession of her medal. "I gave it to a friend who is fighting for her life," said Martino. "She is a great inspiration to me."

According to Henry, Martino gave no indication in advance of the race that she would make such a gesture. Henry was on the deck, fulfilling her duties with the equipment crew, when someone pulled her aside. She has always dreamed of winning an Olympic medal. She never imagined it would happen this way. "It totally took me by surprise," said Henry.

It was only the best of the surprises on the opening night of the swimming competition.

Stillhere
November 12th, 2007, 03:44 PM
Hey John:
It is an interesting hypothesis and I am not alone in my scepticism surrounding this "come back".
Actually John, I really am the Easter Bunny....honest....I really am. Cross my heart....

SwimStud
November 12th, 2007, 03:51 PM
Actually John, I really am the Easter Bunny....honest....I really am. Cross my heart....

Dude, I left a big bucket and a shovel out this year but you didn't use it. Next Easter can you at least scoop up your own droppings so my kids don't tread in it when they go looking for candy ?

Thanks

Stillhere
November 12th, 2007, 03:54 PM
Jimmy:
See, that's the problem; your kids are looking for candy that can make them fat rather then the healthy eggs I colored and left for them. :rofl:

nkfrench
November 12th, 2007, 04:26 PM
I'm wondering if one of the USA woman's swimmers who is getting on in age will ever "test" positive? And, if she does, will she admit it even when tested positive. I personally believe she hid out in USMS while getting back in swimming shape, and then declared she was going to take one more shot at the Olympics. I do not buy the come back for a second....and like everything in life; everyone is entitled to their opinion.


This is on the USA Swimming website:

Retirement
Please be informed that all former world ranked swimmers, and athletes who were subject to out-of-competition drug testing, who would like to come out of retirement to return to competition (domestic or international), must subject themselves to the FINA, WADA and USADA out-of-competition drug testing programs for a period of nine months before they can compete in any competition.

Stillhere
November 12th, 2007, 04:52 PM
Hi Nancy:
I am not sure I fully understand your point with respect to the nine month rule. If I understand your point correctly, I assume you are inferring that nine months prevents illegal drug use from taking place. If this is correct, I disagree.

Having the opportunity to take illegal performance enhancing drugs to grow stronger outside the testing regiment adhered to by other woman swimmers allows a woman to gain a serious advantage. She can seriously increase her threshold of strength comparative to other woman swimmers then stop taking illegal performance enhancing drugs in time to meet the nine month rule, test clean and arrive there much stronger then she could have had she not taken illegal drugs. Bottom line is she could raise the bar on drugs, and then glide back down to a level still higher then her fellow woman swimmers without being tested one time during her drug taking regiment.

TheGoodSmith
November 12th, 2007, 04:56 PM
nkfrench,

While Stillhere's suggestion is an interesting one, it really doesn't speak to the ineffective testing conducted by WADA, FINA and USADA. Fact is, there are atheletes (swimmers included) that cheat and don't get caught. This Brazilian woman is only now getting caught and has undoubtedly been cheating for greater than one year. She has cleared testing for previous competitions despite her extremely muscular and obvious physique.

I'd bet my house there are more swimmers out there, and I'd also bet there are some names that would shock us as much as Marion Jones, the darling of American Track and Field, shocked the American Public this Fall.

Remember....... Marion DIDN'T GOT CAUGHT FOR CHEATING IN A DRUG TEST. She got leveraged by the authorities and had to come clean.

There are more liars out there than we probably want to know.


John Smith

Stillhere
November 12th, 2007, 05:10 PM
John has a good point on the ineffective testing currently being performed. Perhaps the authorities and governing bodies of sports could combine their knowledge and prosecute drug cheaters. After all, it is against the law to use these drugs. Put some teeth in the rules/law and lock a few of these cheaters up for perjury, suborning perjury, lying to grand juries, possession and use of these illegal drugs and my guess is much of it would stop.

Let’s get serious here; Marion Jones came clean and told the truth, got stripped of her medals and records, but what about the millions of dollars in endorsements she deprived other clean athletes while she cheated? Lock liars and cheaters like this Brazilian swimmer and Marion Jones up, then the rules have consequences attached to them.

irishpolarbear
November 12th, 2007, 05:32 PM
Lock liars and cheaters like this Brazilian swimmer and Marion Jones up...You’re suggesting that special laws should be enacted to send athletes to prison if they lie or cheat? Should we also presume that they are guilty until proven innocent?

And, should we then stone anyone who breaks the 9th commandment (thou shall not bear false witness…) with posts on this forum? :dedhorse::dedhorse:

Stillhere
November 12th, 2007, 05:49 PM
Gosh Irish:

I never said prison for lying. Perjury is a different animal; and yes, prison for that.

I never said we should presume that they are guilty until proven innocent. My post never came close to that.

I did not bear false witness. I simply said I do not buy it. It is my right to say I do not buy it and I don't buy it. At all!

Cheating on a world class stage deprives athletes of rightfully earned endorsements often worth millions of dollars. Please tell me the difference between a thief stealing your car then a cheating drug user depriving you of a life time goal to be the fastest athlete in the world and the monetary gain often realized by that? Theft is theft....regardless of the masks it wears or the forum in which it takes place.

TheGoodSmith
November 12th, 2007, 05:53 PM
Irish polar bear,

I believe what Stillhere is suggesting is that Marion made false representation to corporate sponsors about her true capabilities on the track when she signed large multimillion dollar corporate sponsorship contracts.

Why shouldn't Nike or any other company be able to sue her now and recoup parts of their unintended yet fraudulent investment in her talent and performances. In that sense...... she should be prosecuted as she was not as good as she represented herself to be in front of these companies.... at least not legally or "naturally".


John Smith

Stillhere
November 12th, 2007, 06:00 PM
Well put John....

I believe what Marion Jones did is called fraud. Criminal fraud. It rises above civil law in that she knowingly conspired to commit fraud by representing herself as a clean darling of her sport and country, when in reality she was a lying cheating fraud. Why not put her in prison for stealing millions of dollars of her sponsor’s money?

Michael Leather
November 12th, 2007, 06:42 PM
I believe what Marion Jones did is called fraud. Criminal fraud. It rises above civil law in that she knowingly conspired to commit fraud by representing herself as a clean darling of her sport and country, when in reality she was a lying cheating fraud. Why not put her in prison for stealing millions of dollars of her sponsor’s money?

Her sponsors probably made millions of dollars thanks to her endorsements. Perhaps the sponsors need to pay that money back to us, the consumers...

The Fortress
November 12th, 2007, 06:46 PM
Well put John....

I believe what Marion Jones did is called fraud. Criminal fraud. It rises above civil law in that she knowingly conspired to commit fraud by representing herself as a clean darling of her sport and country, when in reality she was a lying cheating fraud. Why not put her in prison for stealing millions of dollars of her sponsor’s money?


Not bothering with an alias, myself.

This is not a correct statement of law.

Peter Cruise
November 13th, 2007, 12:08 AM
Jumpin' Jehosophat! Les kicks the ball out of the stadium and the game comes to a grinding halt.

NotVeryFast
November 13th, 2007, 06:29 AM
Perhaps the authorities and governing bodies of sports could combine their knowledge and prosecute drug cheaters. After all, it is against the law to use these drugs.
This is completely untrue, there are substances on the banned list that are not illegal, and it differs from country to country. An example in the US is DHEA which is perfectly legal to buy as a supplement, and metabolises to testosterone in the body.

You also have the problem that they are testing for metabolites of substances, not the substance itself. You could take a legal supplement that has a metabolite in common with a banned illegal substance, and there would be no way of knowing which one the person has consumed. This is fine for banning them from sport, because the metabolites are themselves banned substances, so there is no question they have broken the rules of the sport, but it does not tell you they have broken the law because you have no way of knowing what they consumed to cause the metabolite to be present in the body.

TheGoodSmith
November 13th, 2007, 11:05 AM
Why does FINA, WADA and USADA waste money on testing athletes other than the top 8 at nationals and worlds? Do we ultimately care as much if cheaters are finishing 32nd at nationals? Why not channel proportionately more money toward the top finishers? Heck..... just test the top 3 if we want to make it easier on these organizations budgets.

John Smith

scyfreestyler
November 13th, 2007, 12:09 PM
Why does FINA, WADA and USADA waste money on testing athletes other than the top 8 at nationals and worlds? Do we ultimately care as much if cheaters are finishing 32nd at nationals? Why not channel proportionately more money toward the top finishers? Heck..... just test the top 3 if we want to make it easier on these organizations budgets.

John Smith

Is it not important to at least attempt to keep the sport clean? What kind of message would it send to the 9-32nd place finishers? We only care about the medalists? Random testing of all top talent is best IMHO.

TheGoodSmith
November 13th, 2007, 12:34 PM
SCYfreestyler,

Your philosophy is fine and noble if these organizations budgets could handle all the testing. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Better to focus on what can realistically be accomplished at a higher level and make it easier for these organizations to do a better job than to take a "shot gun" approach to the entire field with limited resources.

Let's face it, the odds are there are not going to be as many cheaters the further down the rankings you proceed.

John Smith

Noodles Romanoff
November 13th, 2007, 12:40 PM
Why does FINA, WADA and USADA waste money on testing athletes other than the top 8 at nationals and worlds? Do we ultimately care as much if cheaters are finishing 32nd at nationals? Why not channel proportionately more money toward the top finishers? Heck..... just test the top 3 if we want to make it easier on these organizations budgets.

John Smith
Why does FINA, WADA and USADA waste money on testing athletes other than the top 8 at nationals and worlds? I would guess that FINA, WADA and USADA are not actively scanning a masters swimming discussion forum. So if you really care to find answers; why do you waste your time asking a bunch of masters? Why not ask FINA, WADA and USADA and then get back to us?

Do we ultimately care as much if cheaters are finishing 32nd at nationals? I do. Cheating at any level is still cheating and should not be condoned or tolerated.

scyfreestyler
November 13th, 2007, 12:50 PM
If money is an issue (I really have no idea if it is or not, just going on what you have thrown out there), raise the fees to swim at national and international meets. I was just looking at the meet sheet for the Santa Clara International and the fees are no more expensive than the average USMS meet.

http://www.pacswim.org/0607scsc.pdf

Blackbeard's Peg
November 13th, 2007, 12:54 PM
John,
You make a great point. But I do agree with Matt that this sends a pretty negative "you're not important" message to the rest of the field.

I can think of a few examples of why test more than the top 8...
1 - relays. Lets say 8 countries are represented by one swimmer each in the top 8. one country has three swimmers ranked 9,10 and 11, and all with very close to top 8 times. They win the gold medal. #11 is juiced. I guess this is where testing the top 8 swimmers for each nation come into play.
2 - preventative maintenence. You can bet the Tour de France was embarassed to dethrone a the tour winner and kick out the main frontrunners mid-race in two successive years due to doping. Catch the guy/gal on his/her way up the ladder so you don't have the embarassment of having to pull them off the Olympic medal stand.
3 - continuous leveling of the playing field. Lets say all I wanted to do was be the best 500 freestyler in NCAA Div II. I could juice my way to the top in Div II. Sure, I'd probably make a national cut in the 400 LCM Free at some point, but since there's all those Div I guys ahead of me at nationals, they all get tested and I, finishing a paltry 13th or whatever, get off scott free. And still have my Division II championship crown.

Rob Copeland
November 13th, 2007, 01:18 PM
just test the top 3 if we want to make it easier on these organizations budgets.

John SmithCurrently ALL of the top swimmers in the USA (more than just the top 3) are already tested both in and out of competition.

In the case of the Brazilian swimmer, the news reports said that the drug testing officer colluded with her to provide false samples on at least 3 tests. I truly believe that here in the USA safeguards are in place to prevent these actions.

Stillhere
November 13th, 2007, 01:41 PM
Perhaps we can look at this issue in a different light. The United State Government, state & local police agencies along with hundreds of penal institutions spend billions of dollars each year attempting to stop illegal drug use. Drugs such as heroin, meth, cocaine and marijuana are still easily accessible to anyone who chooses to take these illegal drugs. Stopping the use of these drugs is similar to whizzing in the ocean to raise the tide. In short, it is a complete exercise in futility. Conversely, it has proven near impossible stopping or preventing cheating in organized sports through the use of illegal performance enhancing drugs. Again, the regulatory bodies are all standing on the beach together whizzing in the ocean expecting the tide to rise. It is NOT going to happen; especially if we continue in the current manner.

Please do not take my word for this. Simply look at the Federal budget and the billions of dollars allocated to incarcerating criminals who sell and use illegal drugs as well as preventing them from entering the USA. Yet the Dutch Boy still has his finger in the dike and the water/drugs are still pouring into the USA nearly unabated.

Perhaps it is time to do one of following:

1. Admit that our actions/policies & methods to eradicate illegal drug use are a complete exercise in futility and make these drugs legal.
2. Change the laws to make the consequences so sever that even the most hardened drug dealers wouldn’t dream of selling, importing or dealing drugs.
3. Make the penalties for performance enhancing drug use so severe that no athlete would dream of using drugs to gain a competitive advantage.
4. Make performance enhancing drug use legal.

IMHO performance enhancing drug use is exactly like illegal narcotic drug use in the sense that we will NEVER be able to stop it unless we make the penalty so sever that it goes away. Or, we need to give in and stop whizzing our hard earned money down the drain in a complete exercise in futility, because we darn sure are NOT winning this battle.

Think of the good the billions of dollars could do in education, medical care & research as opposed to literally pouring it down a drain we have known we cannot plug for over five decades. Either we get tough or we should all go home and sit on the couch, because what we are doing now is pretty stupid, lame, useless and costly.

Noodles Romanoff
November 13th, 2007, 02:57 PM
Who is this “we” of which you speak/

Are you part of the “we” that every year takes billions of dollars of illegal drugs off the streets?

Are you part of the “we” that is selling/using drugs and fighting for their legalization?

Are you part of the “we” that is making penalties more harsh for performance enhancing drug users. Isn’t being banned from the sport harsh enough?

Are you part of the “we” that is funding with “our hard earned money”. Drug testing for USA Swimmers cost about 3 cents per tax payer. Let me know you social security number and I’ll cover your share.


Think of the good the billions of dollars could do in education, medical care & research as opposed to literally pouring it down a drain we have known we cannot plug for over five decades. Either we get tough or we should all go home and sit on the couch, because what we are doing now is pretty stupid, lame, useless and costly.

“We” currently spend billions on education, medical care & research. These are also obviously futile efforts; “we” are figuratively pouring it down a drain we have known we cannot plug for over five decades. Either we get tough on education, medical care & research or we should all go home and sit on the couch, because what we are doing now is pretty stupid, lame, useless and costly. And a final though, I doubt you will find any of the swimming related drug testing groups “literally” pouring money down the drain, for one thing money is a solid that isn’t easily poured.

Stillhere
November 13th, 2007, 03:24 PM
Who is this “we” of which you speak/
Since you want to cut to the quick regarding money being a solid, let us keep the facts straight here. I did not speak, I wrote.

Are you part of the “we” that every year takes billions of dollars of illegal drugs off the streets?
Sure, I am part of that “we” because my tax money funds that ridicules and futile effort. We cannot stop it, have not stopped it, will not stop it, yet “we” sure as heck fund this madness.

Are you part of the “we” that is selling/using drugs and fighting for their legalization?
No, I do not sell drugs, use drugs or fight for their legalization. Frankly, I do not care one way or another if they are legal or illegal. What I do care about is squandering billions of dollars attempting to stop something that has been proved impossible to stop under current conditions.

Are you part of the “we” that is making penalties more harsh for performance enhancing drug users. Isn’t being banned from the sport harsh enough?
Yes, I am definitely one of the advocates for making penalties harsher for performance enhancing drug users. I thought I made that perfectly clear yesterday when I wrote I think prison time should be issued for the fraud and theft associated with this.

Are you part of the “we” that is funding with “our hard earned money”. Drug testing for USA Swimmers cost about 3 cents per tax payer. Let me know you social security number and I’ll cover your share.
Where did you pull this number out of? Spending one cent is excessive if it is useless and from what I read and hear in all of sports, it is pretty useless.

And a final though, I doubt you will find any of the swimming related drug testing groups “literally” pouring money down the drain, for one thing money is a solid that isn’t easily poured.
Please excuse the grammatical liberty I took with this statement. I humbly apologize for categorizing money as a fluid when in reality it is a solid. I stand corrected and defer to your superior intellect. That is, unless money is transferred electronically, at which point it comes in the form of electrons.

scyfreestyler
November 13th, 2007, 03:26 PM
So either start issuing prison sentences for performance enhancing drug users or just stop the testing and fuggedabouddit?

Stillhere
November 13th, 2007, 03:39 PM
Prison is not the all in all fix. But, it is a good start toward the fix. My point is a simple one. The lack of punishment or consequences fosters abuse of these rules. The results of illegal performance enhancing drugs are often hidden and very difficult to quantify. But it is killing sports. Who ever thought a home run baseball would auction for close to a million dollars and then get branded with an asterisk before being sent to the Hall of Fame?

If we really want to stop it, then make it unpalatable and very expensive if caught cheating. Anything less then severe consequences is a joke the cheaters laugh at. Let's face it; it takes a very brave SOB to step over the corpse to see if the gun is still loaded….figuratively writing.

Noodles Romanoff
November 13th, 2007, 04:05 PM
figuratively writing.
Or were you “literally typing”

And by the way, most of us got your stance on tougher punishment on your first or second post on this thread. Some maybe on your sixth or seventh. Hopefully we all have it by post number 10.

Personally, I’m more interested in Graham Johnston's wood kick board. But that’s just me.:whiteflag:

Stillhere
November 13th, 2007, 04:16 PM
That magnificent kick board on display in Fort Lauderdale at the ISHOF is interesting.

And forgive me for boring you with my later posts. Being redundant, redundant is somewhat boring I guess.

TheGoodSmith
November 13th, 2007, 04:52 PM
Noodles.... no one said that cheating is not cheating if your not in the top 8. Try to stick with the topic which is about trying to make drug testing more effective given the limited resources.

Note Victor Conte's response in a recent interview .....

"How could the doping police do a better job? Conte insists that he has answered these questions. He has had three meetings with the US AntiDoping Agency and in February 2005 he spent three hours with an official from Wada. “And I didn’t do it in exchange for leniency,” he said. “I did it for the right reasons: to create a fully cooperative acknowledgement of the massive drug problem in elite sport.”

"For the doping authorities to be more successful, he recommends better target-testing. “When you see that the fastest two men in the world are both from a track club in Los Angeles, for instance, or the Bay Area, or North Carolina or Jamaica – this should be worth looking at. What you need to do is take the dollars you have and the number of tests you have and focus your resources on the top ten in each event. Why test the top 100 – the people who are not winning races and not winning dollars? Why test everybody two times when you could test the top ten ten times?”

He also recommends better timing of the testing. “The testing used to drop off hugely in the fourth quarter of the year. But my point is, this is the off-season quarter when the athletes are using substances for their intensive weight training. Why did the testers decide to take a nap then?”

This is why, he said, Balco’s level of sophistication is not required to be a cheat. “I know of people who have very little information and are still able to get round the procedures. The authorities say they are improving – and they are. But is it still relatively easy for athletes to use drugs and beat the system? The answer is yes.”

gull
November 13th, 2007, 05:46 PM
The Sporting News August 19, 2002 by Dave Kindred

Naturally, athletes were eager to pay for advice from Charles E. Yesalis. The Penn State professor knows steroids. He has written three books on the subject. He has testified to Congress. He has worked with the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee, the FBI, the American Medical Association, the NFL Players Association, the U.S. Olympic Committee and the NCAA.

So athletes sought him out. Not for help in getting the drugs that are legally obtained only by prescription; anybody smart enough to buy Milk Duds can score steroids. Nor were athletes concerned about health risks; who sweats the small stuff when you believe you're bullet-proof?

They came to Yesalis in hopes of covering up the crime.

"They wanted to hire me as a consultant to make sure they don't get caught," he says.

He says he turned down the requests, once prompting an athlete to say, "Well, Chuck, I figured you were going to say that. But, you know, I would even take it off my income tax as a business expense." They shared a laugh there.

Such a world we've made.

Steroids as business tools.

Every home run hitter a suspect.

Now we hear Major League Baseball making noises about a steroids-testing program. Though any testing is better than no testing, Yesalis says the hard truth is that not even the most stringent program, let alone the namby-pamby deal likely to come from current talks, will eliminate steroids in baseball.

"With drug testing in place in the NFL, NBA, and every major Olympic sport, there's still a steroids problem in those leagues and federations," he says. "It would be naive to think that if baseball had a steroids-testing program, they're still not going to have a huge problem."

The problem will persist because world-class athletes and chemists generally stay a step ahead of the science posse. Or, as Yesalis has come to believe after 23 years of research: "Drug tests catch only stupid, careless and foolish people."

There are, as we know, locker rooms filled with the stupid, careless and foolish. But Yesalis draws a distinction that applies to baseball's millionaires.

"If you're talking about an elite, wealthy athlete," he says, "they'll go to people like me to make sure they don't flunk drug tests."

For Yesalis, a test by eyesight is enough: "When you see mature men who have already strength-trained for years, and all of a sudden they gain 30 pounds of lean mass, I am tremendously suspicious because that doesn't happen naturally. You don't need to be a steroid scientist to know that is incomprehensible."

Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa, two suddenly bulky strongmen, have denied using steroids and pledged to abide by any testing program players help devise. Many people, including borderline omniscient sportswriters, have insisted that Bonds and Sosa pass a test because a simple test would end the suspicion.

No, it would not. Passing such a test can mean ...

1) The athlete doesn't use steroids.

2) He uses steroids daily but with a masking agent.

3) He uses steroids, but all traces are flushed out of his system within two or three days.

4) He uses a steroid recipe fashioned by a designer famous for undetectable potions.

5) He used steroids as training aids two years ago, bulked up, kept buff with madman workouts and now needs a juice refill only every January.

6) He uses human growth hormone, or insulin-like growth factor I. These replicate steroid enhancement, but no test exists for them.

The question: "So a negative steroid test really proves nothing?"

Yesalis: "You are absolutely and totally correct."

TheGoodSmith
November 13th, 2007, 06:34 PM
Gull,

The more I learn about this crap the more depressed I get about the future of athletics.


John Smith

funkyfish
November 13th, 2007, 11:25 PM
This has been an interesting thread. I feel that because of the endless possibilities of who's cheating, who's not, to what degree one is cheating, etc., you just have to focus on your own accomplishments. This is not to say that there isn't a solution to drug testing, perhaps there is. But it's definitely a complicated subject.

Just out of curiosity, and perhaps this is another thread subject, but I wonder what opinions are out there regarding the "cleanliness" of say the top 8 finishers in any major international swim meet, male or female? In addition, what's the opinion of whether or not one can set a world record in an event as a clean athlete? Just curious.
:groovy:

Stillhere
November 14th, 2007, 08:54 AM
"When you see mature men who have already strength-trained for years, and all of a sudden they gain 30 pounds of lean mass, I am tremendously suspicious because that doesn't happen naturally. You don't need to be a steroid scientist to know that is incomprehensible."

The same suspicions are also raised when we see a 41 year old woman who has been out of the water for some years, had a child and came back to swimming and beat a field of the fastest American swimmers at the nationals in Indianapolis; all the while looking buff like a 22 year old college swimmer. :confused:

ande
November 14th, 2007, 10:09 AM
prison's too extreme
swimming ought to be like body building
have a natural category and an anything goes category


Prison is not the all in all fix. But, it is a good start toward the fix. My point is a simple one. The lack of punishment or consequences fosters abuse of these rules. The results of illegal performance enhancing drugs are often hidden and very difficult to quantify. But it is killing sports. Who ever thought a home run baseball would auction for close to a million dollars and then get branded with an asterisk before being sent to the Hall of Fame?

If we really want to stop it, then make it unpalatable and very expensive if caught cheating. Anything less then severe consequences is a joke the cheaters laugh at. Let's face it; it takes a very brave SOB to step over the corpse to see if the gun is still loaded….figuratively writing.

TheGoodSmith
November 14th, 2007, 10:56 AM
Ande,

What's to stop people from competing in the "clean" category and also cheating. You'll just have the same problem.

Funkyfish brings up an interesting point about World Records....... how can anyone beat Flo Jo's records without juicing?

John Smith

SwimStud
November 14th, 2007, 11:11 AM
prison's too extreme
swimming ought to be like body building
have a natural category and an anything goes category

The naturals are always won by someone using and not getting caught. If there is money to be made there will be cheats/crmiinals. It's simply economics.

There are even guys out there likely doping for golf, on an amateur basis...if it means another 20 yards on the drive...

funkyfish
November 14th, 2007, 11:32 AM
The naturals are always won by someone using and not getting caught. If there is money to be made there will be cheats/crmiinals. It's simply economics.

There are even guys out there likely doping for golf, on an amateur basis...if it means another 20 yards on the drive...

Doping on an amateur basis is crazy. I'd see folks in the gym who would raise suspicions of "jucing up." Do they compete in bodybuilding or powerlifting, or anything? No, they just want to "look good for the ladies." :rolleyes:

I can understand professional athletes turning to substances as they have a financial investment at risk, but amateurs?

SwimStud
November 14th, 2007, 11:52 AM
Doping on an amateur basis is crazy. I'd see folks in the gym who would raise suspicions of "jucing up." Do they compete in bodybuilding or powerlifting, or anything? No, they just want to "look good for the ladies." :rolleyes:

I can understand professional athletes turning to substances as they have a financial investment at risk, but amateurs?

Messing about with roids and other chemicals is a crapshoot for your longterm health. Remember that amateurs don't have the access to the medical science and opinions that wealthy pros do, so they really are playing Russian roulette withtheir health.

Doping to bench or squat that extra plate is no different to doping to get that win or record, so I am sure there are a few among our herd that dabble.

Stillhere
November 14th, 2007, 12:27 PM
When I was in college in Colorado I saw Lyle Alzado freak out and go ballistic on some poor guy in an Italian restaurant in Denver one cold winter night. He was a classic example of roid rage gone ballistic. I'll never forget that crazed look in his face that night. I had no idea he was a roid freak back then and I thought he was simply insane. He wigged out over the poor guy just looking at him and during that time Alzado was a very famous NFL football player.

Alzado is probably most remembered today for being one of the first major U.S. sports figures to admit to abusing steroids. In the last years of his life, as he battled against the brain tumor that eventually caused his death at the age of 43, Alzado asserted that his steroid abuse directly led to his fatal illness.

Screwing around with steroids for monetary gain and recognition is crazy enough on its own, but screwing around with steroids to impress the ladies is brain dead stupid. Fact is, you screw around with the bull long enough and sooner or later you're going to get the horn....unfortunately, it was to late in Lyle Alzado's life for him to realize that.

scyfreestyler
November 14th, 2007, 12:31 PM
That's the beauty of steroids as a method of cheating, they come with their own varietals of punishment.

SwimStud
November 14th, 2007, 12:37 PM
That's the beauty of steroids as a method of cheating, they come with their own varietals of punishment.

While the "caveat emptor" stance is fine with me to apoint. It's like with any controlled substance, the trickle down effect starts to show up in college and then HS. Just waiting for time to exact punishment doesn't help those that might be encouraged to use substances at younger and younger ages.

At 18 I was lifhting 3x a week. There were guys my ages pumping themselves full of dope, just to stand around with relatively skinny legs and huge upper bodies at the disco. Madness.

phdude
November 14th, 2007, 01:36 PM
Stillhere, there are a couple fatal flaws in your analogy that breaks down your argument. The problem with stopping recreational drugs from being imported and sold in the USA is fourfold:

1) the people importing/distributing/using are all unknown until an investigation targets them, at which point a further investigation can occur
2) The distributors/users are constantly changing over time
3) There is essentially a limitless number of criminals compared to the resources we have available to catch them
4) We must catch these actors performing the action or attain enough evidence to charge them with a crime

Catching performance-enhancing drug users is easier because:
1) There are only a certain set of people to investigate. For example, everyone participating in the Olympics, and we have all of their names, addresses, etc to locate these persons. I'm not saying everyone at the olympics is suspect, but we only have to find the users out of that population. This is in contrast with recreational illicit drugs, where the population we search out is the entire USA.
2) The population of elite athletes is a fairly constant group, with members lasting about 8 years on average
3)This number is of course, finite.
4) By participating in the competitions the athletes are allowing themselves to be subjected to invasive procedures to determine whether they are clean or not.

There are issues with the robustness of the methods used to determine who is cheating, but we do have these advantages over the illegal drug trade in terms of how easily we can catch abusers.

I do agree with your point, however, that the penalties have to be much more severe. If you distribute illegal substances and are caught in the US, you get a several-year timeout in a small cell. If you're an athlete that gets caught using, depending on the sport you're involved in, you're either given a slap on the wrist, a several game timeout, or a year ban from competition. All the while, the users give these pathetic excuses "Someone tainted my sample, slipped something in my Coke, etc...."

The stakes are so high nowadays that winning a major event in the Olympics is worth several million dollars. The penalties for being caught should be so severe that no one thinks about taking shortcuts anymore. For example, Marion has made millions in endorsements and was a household name during the Olympics she did so well at. It is reasonable to believe she would have none of this if not for being a user. Since then, she has lost her good name. I believe that whatever parties possible would do the world of sports a favor by suing for damages for her misrepresentation, and reducing her financial status to what it would have been had she placed 5th in the olympics. I don't think jail time is necessary to prevent most athletes from using if this were to occur. Marion had it all, and beat the rap for several years. If she were to lose both her finances and reputation, what athlete would want to bother? Accomplishing nothing is far better than losing your self respect, having accomplishments taken away, and being reviled by your own country.



Perhaps we can look at this issue in a different light. The United State Government, state & local police agencies along with hundreds of penal institutions spend billions of dollars each year attempting to stop illegal drug use. Drugs such as heroin, meth, cocaine and marijuana are still easily accessible to anyone who chooses to take these illegal drugs. Stopping the use of these drugs is similar to whizzing in the ocean to raise the tide. In short, it is a complete exercise in futility. Conversely, it has proven near impossible stopping or preventing cheating in organized sports through the use of illegal performance enhancing drugs. Again, the regulatory bodies are all standing on the beach together whizzing in the ocean expecting the tide to rise. It is NOT going to happen; especially if we continue in the current manner.

Please do not take my word for this. Simply look at the Federal budget and the billions of dollars allocated to incarcerating criminals who sell and use illegal drugs as well as preventing them from entering the USA. Yet the Dutch Boy still has his finger in the dike and the water/drugs are still pouring into the USA nearly unabated.

Perhaps it is time to do one of following:

1. Admit that our actions/policies & methods to eradicate illegal drug use are a complete exercise in futility and make these drugs legal.
2. Change the laws to make the consequences so sever that even the most hardened drug dealers wouldn’t dream of selling, importing or dealing drugs.
3. Make the penalties for performance enhancing drug use so severe that no athlete would dream of using drugs to gain a competitive advantage.
4. Make performance enhancing drug use legal.

IMHO performance enhancing drug use is exactly like illegal narcotic drug use in the sense that we will NEVER be able to stop it unless we make the penalty so sever that it goes away. Or, we need to give in and stop whizzing our hard earned money down the drain in a complete exercise in futility, because we darn sure are NOT winning this battle.

Think of the good the billions of dollars could do in education, medical care & research as opposed to literally pouring it down a drain we have known we cannot plug for over five decades. Either we get tough or we should all go home and sit on the couch, because what we are doing now is pretty stupid, lame, useless and costly.

Stillhere
November 14th, 2007, 02:19 PM
Very well put Phdude:

However, Marion Jones will never be able to repay the 2nd place finishers for their stolen time on the winners block. Every one of those 2nd place finishers were robbed of their just recognition, fame, accolades and endorsements that result from winning gold medals. We cannot quantify that; yet years later this cheater finally comes clean after living the good life off the spoils of her deceit, lies and illegal performance enhancing drug use. Big whippy do, she had to give the medals back and her records were erased from the books.

My point is a simple one. The harm and damage caused by cheaters like Marian Jones is incredibly damaging and costly to those 2nd place finishers. It shattered and destroyed years and years of the 2nd place finishers honest hard work, courage, grit, persistence and determination (not to mention the cost of training all those years). Marian Jones’s naked greed and lust for fame and fortune destroyed a life time of hard work and dedication for those women who came in 2nd place. The only difference between Jones and the burglar that busts into your house is gloves a flashlight and a lock pick. She is nothing more then a common thief.

Her punishment does not remotely come close to compensating for the harm and damage she caused. Not even close. My vote, let’s get serious and make the punishment commensurate with the crime.

The Fortress
November 14th, 2007, 02:29 PM
Very well put Phdude:

However, Marion Jones will never be able to repay the 2nd place finishers for their stolen time on the winners block. Every one of those 2nd place finishers were robbed of their just recognition, fame, accolades and endorsements that result from winning gold medals. We cannot quantify that; yet years later this cheater finally comes clean after living the good life off the spoils of her deceit, lies and illegal performance enhancing drug use. Big whippy do, she had to give the medals back and her records were erased from the books.

My point is a simple one. The harm and damage caused by cheaters like Marian Jones is incredibly damaging and costly to those 2nd place finishers. It shattered and destroyed years and years of the 2nd place finishers honest hard work, courage, grit, persistence and determination (not to mention the cost of training all those years). Marian Jones’s naked greed and lust for fame and fortune destroyed a life time of hard work and dedication for those women who came in 2nd place. The only difference between Jones and the burglar that busts into your house is gloves a flashlight and a lock pick. She is nothing more then a common thief.

Her punishment does not remotely come close to compensating for the harm and damage she caused. Not even close. My vote, let’s get serious and make the punishment commensurate with the crime.

Who says the 2nd place finishers weren't on drugs too?

The death penalty does not seem to deter determined murderers. I'm not sure jail time would deter athletes either. The athletes that are cheating will likely cheat anyway. If the possibility of death -- i.e., FloJo -- won't stop them, why would jail?

Stillhere
November 14th, 2007, 02:35 PM
“Who says the 2nd place finishers weren't on drugs too?”

Gosh, that is a bit cynical, but you have a good point. When I write about the 2nd place athlete I am referring to clean athletes that tested negative and did not cheat.

Good point on FloJo as well. In the interim, lets lock a few of the drug thieves up and see if it has an impact on illegal performance enhancing drug use. What we have now sure as heck does not work. It is a joke at best if we are to believe what the experts write.

knelson
November 14th, 2007, 02:36 PM
I wonder if the drug cheats ever get mad when a clean athlete beats them? Maybe in their skewed world view they're out their saying "all the money I spent on drugs and this guy/gal comes by who only had to buy a suit and goggles has the nerve to beat me!"

Stillhere
November 14th, 2007, 02:39 PM
Kirk, that scenario surely qualifies for poetic justice. LOL

The Fortress
November 14th, 2007, 02:40 PM
I wonder if the drug cheats ever get mad when a clean athlete beats them? Maybe in their skewed world view they're out their saying "all the money I spent on drugs and this guy/gal comes by who only had to buy a suit and goggles has the nerve to beat me!"

LOL. I'm sure this happens. It's probably not just the top dogs taking drugs.

Here's an article from today's Washington Post on the topic:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/13/AR2007111301985.html?sub=AR

craiglll@yahoo.com
November 14th, 2007, 04:07 PM
Yesterday, in the e-mail sent by the other magazine, there was an article about the problems in brazil. Unfortunately, after I read the e-magazine, I deleted it. Did anyone save it.

I understand from a friend who lives in Argentina, Brazillian Olympic Committee and some of its sport foundaitons are very disorganized and corrupt. The members of the Brazillian OC are appointed by politicians as rewards for favors. I'm not real sure how this works though.

I htink that not until recently, since the olympics in Greece there were no 50meter pools in South America that were avaiable to atheletes. I guess there are some inhotels & one at the presidents palace in Brazalia.

ALM
November 14th, 2007, 05:50 PM
Interesting story in yesterday's New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/13/health/13essa.html

Excerpts:



Old Story, Updated: Better Living Through Pills
By KEITH WAILOO
Published: November 13, 2007
The New York Times

"Athletes taking performance-enhancing drugs. Growing concern about a reliance on pills for relief from pain, stress and anxiety. Medical leaders alarmed about drug fads, calling on doctors to exercise restraint when prescribing."

"Headlines from 2007? Try 1957. Today, the drugs are OxyContin, steroids and Ritalin. Fifty years ago, they were tranquilizers, sedatives and amphetamines: America was a Cold War nation in need of both pep and relief..."

"...In 1957, the American Medical Association began an investigation of “pep pills” in sports. In track and field alone, a dozen runners had run the four-minute mile in the three years since Roger Bannister first did it. How could this be possible, the doctors wanted to know, without stimulating drugs? Were athletes using amphetamines to stimulate the nervous system, reduce fatigue and improve performance?"

"...Australian Olympic swimmers were under a similar cloud; even high school athletes were suspected..."

NotVeryFast
November 15th, 2007, 07:54 AM
I wonder if the drug cheats ever get mad when a clean athlete beats them?
How would they know the athlete who beat them was clean? More likely they'll think the athlete who beat them had better drugs.

Rob Copeland
November 15th, 2007, 07:56 AM
An apology…

In a post on the 13th I made some flippant and cavalier comments about drug testing at the upcoming USA Swimming National Championship, for which I am sorry. These have been edited out of my post, but they were posted and they were inappropriate.

First, to clear up a misstatement; I volunteered to be a drug testing chaperone at the championship, escorting athletes from the pool to the testing area. The actual drug testing is conducted by trained professionals in a tightly controlled manner. The chain of custody and confidentially is strictly maintained for legal and ethical reasons.

The people who work for FINA, USA Swimming, WADA, and USADA are seriously committed to keeping swimming clean. Are they keeping our sport 100% clean? Of course not, but I believe these people are doing everything they can to insure that our competitions are fair and our athletes are given a level playing field on which to compete.

Firefighters don’t prevent 100% of all fires; doctors don’t cure 100% of their patients, teachers don’t teach all straight A students. And, most of us would not propose that we give up on these professions as failed endeavors. Most of the people who choose these professions are trying to make a difference and doing what they can. I believe the same is true for the people working for WADA and USADA.

The people at FINA, USA Swimming, WADA, and USADA are working to keep our sport as clean as possible. Will a very few athletes continue to try to gain advantages illegally? Unfortunately, yes. Will the testing agencies catch every cheating athlete? Obviously, no, but I bet the people working for ASADA and WADA are more frustrated by this then any of us.

laineybug
November 15th, 2007, 08:53 AM
Well put, Rob! Lainey

Stillhere
November 15th, 2007, 09:44 AM
Dead on there Rob...and I 100 % support any tool that can help them curb/stop this cancer within all of sports. The folks at FINA, USA Swimming, WADA, and USADA may be pushing a fifty ton snow ball up hill, but at least they are in there pushing and attempting to make it clean. They have my respect and my suport.

Frank Thompson
November 15th, 2007, 09:50 AM
The 2nd World Anti Doping Conference starts today and there are more than 150 countries in attendence. One of the items on the agenda is implementing a tougher anti doping code. Key proposals in the new WADA code are four year bans for series first time doping offenders but also more flexibility in sanctions and the chance of lesser punishments for caught athletes who co-operate with the authorities.

The conference also marks the end of the Dick Pound rein and they will elect a new President. Dick Pound has always been controversial and has significant ties to swimming. He was an Olympic competitor in 1960 and finaled in the 100 Meter Free. He was also the Honorary Meet Director of V World Masters Swimming Championships in 1994, in Montreal. He has an interesting book out now called "Inside Doping". I have provided some links of what goes on behind the scenes about Dick Pound and the WADA.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/11/11/sohart111.xml

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5iZCFPl-aZaElkVK7vmuwjU439jlw

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5jEbGrsu9a3p1-dE4ePYl24SFKL-A

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/15.01/pound.html

Stillhere
November 15th, 2007, 10:10 AM
Dick Pound is a bloody hero in my book! For years and years he was the only guy who had the brass to tell it like it really was/is. In doing so he's been maligned, insulted, bashed, threatened and castigated by the cheaters. Years ago Marion Jones called him anti American, only to confess to her drug cheating years later.

Sports is in serious debt to Dick Pound and the brass he brought to keeping sports drug free. He will be missed.

TheGoodSmith
November 15th, 2007, 10:23 AM
Rob,

Of course everyone supports the members of these anti drug organizations and the work they perform. That's like saying you love apple pie and America. This is not the issue. The issue is these organizations are grossly underfunded and testing for agents that are usually several years behind the curve. Fact is the amount of cheating and "supplement" abuse in swimming and other sports is getting worse over the last decade. WADA, FINA and USADA need more help. Your actions are to be applauded, but I see little hope for catching the users until we seriously dump substantially more money and support into testing for leading edge drugs to nail the cheats. Just because their appears to be a "very few athletes" getting caught as a percentage of the entire base, does not mean this represents the number of cheaters actually out there, or that we are doing a good job catching them. There are too many examples of cheaters that passed these organization's testing procedures over and over time and again before getting caught.

We all support WADA, USADA and FINA, the dedicated people as yourself who want to make a difference. We all want these organizations to succeed, but don't white wash their problems by saying they aren't catching 100% of the violations. They're not even close to that number according to Victor Conte. These organizations have a very steep uphill climb to get on top of an already bad situation in American sports.



John Smith

Rob Copeland
November 15th, 2007, 10:48 AM
Dick Pond is a bloody hero in my book! For years and years he was the only guy who had the brass to tell it like it really was/is. In doing so he's been maligned, insulted, bashed, threatened and castigated by the cheaters. Years ago Marion Jones called him anti American, only to confess to her drug cheating years later.

Sports is in serious debt to Dick Pond and the brass he brought to keeping sports drug free. He will be missed.Phil Whitten is another name that comes to mind when we talk about guys who had the brass to tell it like it really was/is.

scyfreestyler
November 15th, 2007, 11:43 AM
Where is this money going to come from? I have already posted my idea, increasing meet entry fees.

Stillhere
November 15th, 2007, 11:50 AM
Reading Frank's articles is appears the IOC has some very, very deep pockets (I had no idea they were that deep). Perhaps they can become the leader in stopping drug use in sports with the huge amounts of money at their disposal.

"Pound's first deal brought in $325 million for worldwide TV rights to the 1988 Calgary winter games. For the 2008 summer games in Beijing, the last deal that Pound worked on, the IOC is projecting a revenue windfall of $1.7 billion."

fatboy
November 15th, 2007, 01:18 PM
I wonder if the drug cheats ever get mad when a clean athlete beats them? Maybe in their skewed world view they're out their saying "all the money I spent on drugs and this guy/gal comes by who only had to buy a suit and goggles has the nerve to beat me!"

They probably assume that the winner got more or better drugs....

fanstone
November 15th, 2007, 02:28 PM
"I understand from a friend who lives in Argentina, Brazillian Olympic Committee and some of its sport foundaitons are very disorganized and corrupt. The members of the Brazillian OC are appointed by politicians as rewards for favors. I'm not real sure how this works though.

I htink that not until recently, since the olympics in Greece there were no 50meter pools in South America that were avaiable to atheletes. I guess there are some inhotels & one at the presidents palace in Brazalia."

Craig, do not believe anything an Argentinian writes about Brazil and vice-versa. I am posting from an internet cafe so I will not answer about all the stuff above except for the pool question. In a city close by, where I go to some meets, there are two public 50 meter pools and one in a private club. They were built in the 60s I believe. I can assure you that similarly to the U.S. there are plenty of 25 (meter) pools here and less 50 meter ones. Our master's group has about 8 meets a year, with 3 being in LCM. The pool behind the Palacio da Alvorada in Brasilia, our equivalent to the White House, has a 25 meter pool, which you can probably see in the google satellite pictures. Later, billy fanstone

Stillhere
November 16th, 2007, 09:17 AM
Bonds indicted on federal charges
Home run king charged with perjury, obstruction of justice.
By Barry M. Bloom / MLB.com
Former San Francisco Giants slugger Barry Bonds has been indicted by a federal grand jury seated in San Francisco on four counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice for allegedly lying when he said he did not use performance-enhancing drugs in testimony given before another grand jury nearly four years ago.
The indictment, which cites 19 occasions in which Bonds allegedly lied under oath, also stipulates that Bonds withheld evidence and thus "unlawfully, willfully, and knowingly did corruptly endeavor to influence, obstruct and impede the due administration of justice, by knowingly giving Grand Jury testimony that was intentionally evasive, false and misleading."
In the most damaging evidence presented in the indictment, the government said it based its findings, in part, on the fact that "during the criminal investigation, evidence was obtained, including positive tests for the presence of anabolic steroids and other performance-enhancing substances, for Bonds and other professional athletes."
If convicted, Bonds could be sentenced to a maximum of 30 years in prison.

Now there is some serious deterrent....

The Fortress
November 16th, 2007, 09:24 AM
But he was indicted for perjury, not drug use.

Stillhere
November 16th, 2007, 09:41 AM
Good point Fortress....but the cheaters are watching this and at the very least they realize they can tossed in jail for lying to a grand jury. The fact is, Marion Jones only came clean after she realized her back side was close to going to the slams for perjury.

One of the articles Frank posted yesterday addressed Dick Pounds brilliant tactic of getting buy in (involvement) from law enforcement agencies to trace illegal drug use back to the manufactures and dealers, then back track to the cheaters using these illegal drugs.

scyfreestyler
November 16th, 2007, 10:11 AM
But he was indicted for perjury, not drug use.

Great point Fort, great point. It has been annoying the heck out of me listening to radio callers commenting about steroid use catching up to him when in reality, it has nothing at all to do with steroids. Shoot, he could have been lying about fellatio in the dugout.

TheGoodSmith
November 16th, 2007, 10:54 AM
Perjury or illegal steriod use. ..... he's going down either way. Does anyone really care that Al Capone went down for tax evasion in the end? The deed was done and Bonds will likely pay the price.

John Smith

Stillhere
November 16th, 2007, 10:55 AM
Gosh Matt, I do not think much of that goes on in the dugout so even Bonds would be safe answering those questions.:cool:

Amen there John.....

knelson
November 16th, 2007, 10:56 AM
Bonds was indicted for lying to the grand jury in December, 2003. What the heck took them so long for the indictment? It would have been nice if they had done this before he broke Hank Aaron's career HR mark.

I think Bonds is a drug cheat, but I do think he's being singled out here. I'm sure there are others who lied just as much as Bonds who haven't been indicted.

ALM
November 16th, 2007, 11:00 AM
Jason Whitlock's column from today's Kansas City Star:

"Bonds indictment doesn’t get at the problem"

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/columnists/jason_whitlock/story/363299.html


An excerpt: "Athletes use performance-enhancing drugs without guilt or regret because the people profiting the most off their performance — owners, executives and coaches — have created a culture that promotes drug use...."

Leonard Jansen
November 16th, 2007, 11:02 AM
Who says the 2nd place finishers weren't on drugs too?


In fact, the 2nd place finisher in the 100m at the 200 Olympics, Thanou of Greece, was suspended in 2004 for 2 years for missing 3 drug tests. She was also part of that scandal in the 2004 Olympics when she claimed to have been in a motorcycle accident. Yhe IAAF doesn't want to award her Jones' place.

-LBJ

ALM
November 16th, 2007, 03:37 PM
Who needs drugs when you can have this?

http://www.hypoxico.com/


It's endorsed by South African swimmer Roland Schoeman...
http://www.rolandschoeman.co.za/
-

TheGoodSmith
November 16th, 2007, 05:21 PM
Jayhawk,

Living in Denver the past 7 years I can tell you there is some advantage to coming down to sea level for your important competitions. While it offers some aerobic relief (particularly on pushoffs underwater) the effects are certainly less than permanent and in my opinion less effective for short races. I find that by the end of a 4 day meet my body is already adjusting to sea level and the benefits less effective.

I could not imagine this sort of subtle altitude training "advantage" as being anywhere near as effective or as significant as taking EPO or another oxygen level boosting agent.


John Smith

swimr4life
November 16th, 2007, 06:27 PM
Bonds was indicted for lying to the grand jury in December, 2003. What the heck took them so long for the indictment? It would have been nice if they had done this before he broke Hank Aaron's career HR mark.




Yep....thats what I was thinking. Being a longtime Atlanta girl, I idolize Hank Aaron. I had a photo of him hitting his 715 th homerun (to break Babe Ruth's record) on my wall when I was a little girl. My dad knew one of the photographers that were on the field that day. I still have that picture! I remember watching it on TV and jumping up and down and screaming with my family when he hit it. He is a fine, softspoken gentleman. Its a shame that a liar and possible cheater broke his record.

Peter Cruise
November 16th, 2007, 08:17 PM
It may have been nice to get him before he broke the record, but somehow I like the image of slapping the cuffs on him just before he crossed home plate for that home run...

Peter Cruise
November 16th, 2007, 08:21 PM
I certainly agree with John about the time-limited advantage of altitude training, besides, there is the well recognized peril of a noticable degradation of posting quality for forum participants who live at altitude.

Karen Duggan
November 20th, 2007, 04:05 PM
I have been a Giants fan since 1976. I have no doubt Bonds is a cheater, and now he will be convicted by a jury for being a liar as well. I'm so proud Barry, thanks!

What I would like to see happen... any money made by these athletes during the time of their cheating should have to be repaid (to whom? I don't know- charities, etc.?) For example, whatever endorsements/money M. Jones got during her "glory years" (CHEATER!) she should have to repay.

It just doesn't seem enough to take away the medals, the records, etc. because obviously these athletes don't really respect these things (as they are cheating), so hit 'em where it would really hurt, the wallet.

craiglll@yahoo.com
November 20th, 2007, 04:23 PM
"I understand from a friend who lives in Argentina, Brazillian Olympic Committee and some of its sport foundaitons are very disorganized and corrupt. The members of the Brazillian OC are appointed by politicians as rewards for favors. I'm not real sure how this works though.

I htink that not until recently, since the olympics in Greece there were no 50meter pools in South America that were avaiable to atheletes. I guess there are some inhotels & one at the presidents palace in Brazalia."

Craig, do not believe anything an Argentinian writes about Brazil and vice-versa. I am posting from an internet cafe so I will not answer about all the stuff above except for the pool question. In a city close by, where I go to some meets, there are two public 50 meter pools and one in a private club. They were built in the 60s I believe. I can assure you that similarly to the U.S. there are plenty of 25 (meter) pools here and less 50 meter ones. Our master's group has about 8 meets a year, with 3 being in LCM. The pool behind the Palacio da Alvorada in Brasilia, our equivalent to the White House, has a 25 meter pool, which you can probably see in the google satellite pictures. Later, billy fanstone

The guy in Argentinia is a US citizen who lives there. I remember when the Brazilians first hit my attention, I think around 1996, a show I was watching mentioned that there were so few pools and how that is what is so amazing about the growth in Brazialian swimming.

Paul Smith
November 20th, 2007, 05:03 PM
I certainly agree with John about the time-limited advantage of altitude training, besides, there is the well recognized peril of a noticable degradation of posting quality for forum participants who live at altitude.


Having moved to Arizona full time I would concur with that observation!

By the way...did anyone else see the article about Agnes Kovaks (Olympic gold medalist from Hungary) bolting on an out of competition test and being suspened?

Frank Thompson
November 21st, 2007, 08:58 AM
Having moved to Arizona full time I would concur with that observation!

By the way...did anyone else see the article about Agnes Kovaks (Olympic gold medalist from Hungary) bolting on an out of competition test and being suspened?

Actually she provided 1/3 of a sample and had to leave because she had an apppointment with Sir Roger Moore and you don't keep 007 waiting. She has been cleared of the suspension.

http://www.swimnews.com/News/displayStory.jhtml?id=5709

http://www.swimnews.com/News/displayStory.jhtml?id=5716

knelson
November 21st, 2007, 11:33 AM
Actually she provided 1/3 of a sample and had to leave because she had an apppointment with Sir Roger Moore and you don't keep 007 waiting.

That was probably the reason for the test in the first place. WADA heard she had an appointment with Bond but misheard it and thought she had an appointment with Bonds! :)

fanstone
November 21st, 2007, 02:03 PM
"The guy in Argentinia is a US citizen who lives there. I remember when the Brazilians first hit my attention, I think around 1996, a show I was watching mentioned that there were so few pools and how that is what is so amazing about the growth in Brazialian swimming." He has been brainwashed by living there, probably thinks Maradona is better than Pelé....hehehe...The difference in number of pools in Brazil versus the U.S. is enormous, not even worth comparing. There are no swimming programs in high school, nor are there any swimming pools (there are exceptions, few) at the universities. What called my attention in your post was not that you mentioned few pools, but you mentioned few 50 meter pools. I believe most cities in the U.S. also don't have 50 meter pools. When do you start swimming in those? At college level, or Olympian level? Same here. Most pools are in private clubs or in paid for health clubs, always (with some exceptions) 25 meters. That is why our depth of athletes is so poor. In contrast, our depth for soccer is huge as there are soccer fields all over the place. I learned to swim at a lake at age 4, and the first 25 meter swimming pool was built at a club in my city in 1962, when I was already 13 years old. You know, Buenos Aires has more tennis courts than the whole of Brazil. Mostly a cultural matter. I am lucky to have a heated pool about 5 minutes walk from home for about 50 dollars a month, including coaching on three days a week, and free swimming whenever I feel like it. But I live in the woods, in big cities like São Paulo you would pay four times that for a private swimming pool. The girl who started this thread, the Gusmão girl, is not only guilty of testosterone but might be guilty of tampering....her urine was found to contain DNAs from other people. billy fanstone

knelson
November 21st, 2007, 02:35 PM
I believe most cities in the U.S. also don't have 50 meter pools. When do you start swimming in those? At college level, or Olympian level?

Not really. If you have a 50 meter pool in the area, I suspect most age groupers typically start doing some long course training quite young. I think I was probably around 12 or so when I started doing some long course training in the summer. I also wouldn't really say "most cities in the U.S. don't have 50 meter pools." It's really highly dependent on the part of the country you live, but virtually any decent sized city in the U.S. typically has at least one 50 meter pool.

fanstone
November 21st, 2007, 03:31 PM
I give up. I was thinking of the Mississippi Delta, probably not many pools there, or maybe the Arizona desert, and Chattanooga, when I went to school there, there was one at the University. Those are the places I have been to or lived, not the whole U.S. Same here, we have three 50 meter pools in a bigger city close by, but not in my small (in the woods) city. I don't know nothing about swimming pools, or about double negatives either...billy fanstone

scyfreestyler
November 21st, 2007, 04:56 PM
The 50M pools we have in this area are used as large SCY pools 95% of the time...which is just fine by me.

poolraat
November 21st, 2007, 11:34 PM
At 18 I was lifhting 3x a week. There were guys my ages pumping themselves full of dope, just to stand around with relatively skinny legs and huge upper bodies at the disco. Madness.


This backs up what you're talking about, Rich.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071121/hl_nm/steroid_users_dc

Kind of sad, actually.