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rtodd
November 9th, 2007, 09:22 PM
This may be controversial but is SDK really mandatory for fast freestyle?

Don't see much of it here, it looks like they wan't to surface ASAP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzfv7JEnYUM

I know proponents will link to Phelps' 200 WR, but other than that, I don't see many people exploiting it.

Will we see huge SDK in freestyle at the upcoming Olympics?

I don't fly because of my back, so my SDK in freestyle is minimal. I'd like to think I don't need it.

I'm keen to watch for it in elite freestyle races and it is a mixed bag. Many are fast without a big prolonged SDK.

Allen Stark
November 9th, 2007, 09:39 PM
It depends on your strengths(and height,as I have noted before height is not as important underwater as on the surface.) Most great sprinters swim free faster than they SDK so the less time underwater the better for them. If your SDK is faster then do it,if not don't.

bobbyhillny
November 10th, 2007, 12:10 AM
It depends on your strengths(and height,as I have noted before height is not as important underwater as on the surface.) Most great sprinters swim free faster than they SDK so the less time underwater the better for them. If your SDK is faster then do it,if not don't.

I'm interested about the comment you made that height is not as important underwater. But I couldn't find the post where you mentioned it. Can you provide the link or explain it again? thanks. Curious mind wants to know.

quicksilver
November 10th, 2007, 10:51 AM
This may be controversial but is SDK really mandatory for fast freestyle?



To each his own. It looks as if the majority of top sprinters still burst off of each turn with a flutter kick.
The new record at last years NCAA championships by Cesar Cielo shows him using maybe one dolphin kick... and then transitioned right into a rapid fire flutter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZugO2cegpXE




On the other hand...Ian Crocker has mastered the ninja dolphin kick.
He stayed under with a huge series of SDK in this race...and he went 41 seconds as well! Same results different approach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tZMc8oMnyA

rtodd
November 10th, 2007, 03:41 PM
It looks to me that maybe there is one, maybe two SDK's to extend the streamline an extra body length to get under the incoming wave, but I don't thing the SDK's are there in freestyle for anything other than that. Unless exploiting an exceedingly proficient SDK skill developed from fly and back I think it boils down to personal preference for free.

Allen Stark
November 10th, 2007, 03:52 PM
Bobbyhillny,see my new thread on form and wave drag.

Swimmer Bill
November 11th, 2007, 08:34 AM
For those who aren't up on obscure swim lingo abbreviations, does SDK stand for submerged dolphin kick?

GJ, OMG, IDK, LOL, TYVM!

ande
November 11th, 2007, 09:14 AM
looks like roland took 3 SDKs, Jason Lezak doesn't take any
Each swimmer needs to figure out what works best
they need to experiment, find out how fast they are,
each swimmer needs to find her ideal breakout point
it's all about effort speed and momentum
ie
when Ian Crocker went 41.6 in the 100 scy fr her took around 10 SDKs off each wall

figure out what works best for you


This may be controversial but is SDK really mandatory for fast freestyle?

Don't see much of it here, it looks like they wan't to surface ASAP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzfv7JEnYUM

I know proponents will link to Phelps' 200 WR, but other than that, I don't see many people exploiting it.

Will we see huge SDK in freestyle at the upcoming Olympics?

I don't fly because of my back, so my SDK in freestyle is minimal. I'd like to think I don't need it.

I'm keen to watch for it in elite freestyle races and it is a mixed bag. Many are fast without a big prolonged SDK.

Allen Stark
November 11th, 2007, 11:10 AM
SDK= streamlined dolphin kick.I believe Ande coined it.

ande
November 11th, 2007, 01:00 PM
yes I did
I got tired of writing it out in my blog and comments
so I just started using SDK


SDK= streamlined dolphin kick.I believe Ande coined it.

Swimmer Bill
November 11th, 2007, 04:50 PM
OK, TYVM!!

LOL...

The Fortress
November 11th, 2007, 05:28 PM
It depends on your strengths(and height,as I have noted before height is not as important underwater as on the surface.) Most great sprinters swim free faster than they SDK so the less time underwater the better for them. If your SDK is faster then do it,if not don't.


For me, I like SDKs for fly and back. For the 50 free, I think I only take 2-3 off the start and turn and just get up and go. For the 100 free though, I'm more apt to take 4-5 off each wall. I think I would be faster in SCY or SCM in the 100s with the SDKs than without. But it completely depends on the individual and how well they can SDK. Since I'm on the short side, I think I'm faster this way.

rtodd
November 11th, 2007, 05:49 PM
looks like roland took 3 SDKs, Jason Lezak doesn't take any
Each swimmer needs to figure out what works best
they need to experiment, find out how fast they are,
each swimmer needs to find her ideal breakout point

Thanks Ande for not being SDK biased. I know you are good at it. I am trying to accomplish proficient freestyle without alot of SDK due to lower back problems and I think it can be done.


But it completely depends on the individual and how well they can SDK. Since I'm on the short side, I think I'm faster this way

Thanks Fortress for the same sentiment. I am experimenting with 1-2 SDK to extend streamline just a bit.

The Fortress
November 11th, 2007, 10:32 PM
Thanks Ande for not being SDK biased. I know you are good at it. I am trying to accomplish proficient freestyle without alot of SDK due to lower back problems and I think it can be done.

Thanks Fortress for the same sentiment. I am experimenting with 1-2 SDK to extend streamline just a bit.


I wouldn't give SDKs another thought, if you have a back problem and dislike them. Plenty of speedy masters sprint freestylers who don't SDK and not many masters-Crocker-types that I've noticed. Just focus on getting a good entry and streamline, as you say. Frankly, one reason I'm so focused on SDKs is my shoulders issues. The more time I spend SDK-ing in practice or meets, the less time I'm hammering my shoulders. Plus, it just breaks up my practices and I enjoy it. But this is definitely a "to each his own" kind of issue. Do some fast race pace swimming instead to improve your sprinting. Good luck!

Blackbeard's Peg
November 11th, 2007, 11:38 PM
Regarding the first video posted, sure, there isn't much SDK overall, but the underwater shot shows everyone in lanes 1-5 doing at least one SDK.

Syd
November 12th, 2007, 12:09 AM
To each his own. It looks as if the majority of top sprinters still burst off of each turn with a flutter kick.
The new record at last years NCAA championships by Cesar Cielo shows him using maybe one dolphin kick... and then transitioned right into a rapid fire flutter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZugO2cegpXE




On the other hand...Ian Crocker has mastered the ninja dolphin kick.
He stayed under with a huge series of SDK in this race...and he went 41 seconds as well! Same results different approach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZugO2cegpXE


Quicksilver, both of those links are the same. I think you meant this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tZMc8oMnyA

His SDK is HUGE! He SDK's for almost a third of the pool on each length. He is moving so quickly it is as if he is wearing fins!

And just watch Crocker in th 100 Fly here. He whups the rest of the field with more MASSIVE SDK's!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nisI-hrYsG8
But as you pointed out: same results, different approach.

Syd

quicksilver
November 12th, 2007, 06:39 AM
Quicksilver, both of those links are the same. I think you meant this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tZMc8oMnyA

But as you pointed out: same results, different approach.

Syd

Doh! Thanks Syd!

He makes the pool look very very small.

tomtopo
November 12th, 2007, 08:45 AM
A submerged dolphin kick done prematurely detracts from a streamlined position and must be done only when forward momentum is slower than the speed generated by the kick itself. The Hillmen Swimming Start Comparison Chart will allow you to objectively measure your "breakout" efficiency.

A SDK is often done prematurely after a push-off from the wall. And let's not forget, swimmers with terrible kicks must come up more quickly then those with better kicks. It is also important to objectivey evaluate turn times (breakouts) to evaluate which kick is the best and the proper distance to kick.

ande
November 12th, 2007, 12:21 PM
if you watch crocker's turn / SDK at world's in the 100 fl
there's not much glide after his push off
he begins his SDK almost immediately

there's a little more glide off the start


A submerged dolphin kick done prematurely detracts from a streamlined position and must be done only when forward momentum is slower than the speed generated by the kick itself. The Hillmen Swimming Start Comparison Chart will allow you to objectively measure your "breakout" efficiency.

A SDK is often done prematurely after a push-off from the wall. And let's not forget, swimmers with terrible kicks must come up more quickly then those with better kicks. It is also important to objectivey evaluate turn times (breakouts) to evaluate which kick is the best and the proper distance to kick.

Swimmer Bill
November 12th, 2007, 07:01 PM
Interesting topic. SDKs are beneficial to good dolphin kickers, and I think they are beneficial in freestyle events. I've seen a lot of people who aren't good dolphin kickers attempting SDKs in freestyle. It doesn't appear to make them go faster, especially if the amplitude of the body dolphin and kick is too wide and the kick tempo too slow.

In that regard, if I was teaching the technique I might call it SASDK, small-amplitude streamlined dolphin kick...and I'd teach it using fins for kicking and swimming, progressing from long fins to shorter ones gradually over a period of months. If doing dryland to build strength for SDKs, it'd be all about the core.

rtodd
November 12th, 2007, 07:29 PM
This is a good example of a low SDK count.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwvMKdnQW-I

3strokes
November 12th, 2007, 09:54 PM
if you watch crocker's turn / SDK at world's in the 100 fl
there's not much glide after his push off
he begins his SDK almost immediately

there's a little more glide off the start

You're correct of course, because for most swimmers (even at the elite level) a starting dive creates more momentum, so it take a bit longer for the glide to slow down to the point where kicking (Dolphin or Flutter) does NOT slow the glide down while pushing off after a turn creates less momentum. Now Phelps, being of a different life-form .......... well.............

quicksilver
November 12th, 2007, 10:06 PM
"The dolphin kick we're seeing has to be considered the fifth stroke now. I think swimming has moved to a new era, a new level. It will challenge all coaches and swimmers around the world."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/low/other_sports/swimming/6528915.stm



..."Looking at the race, Phelps gained 0.4 - 0.5 seconds off the start and after each of the first two turns possibly more on the last turn. That equates to about two seconds in a 200 free, and ironically (or not) his margin of victory was a little more than those said two seconds."

http://www.timedfinals.com/27032007/learn-from-phelps-underwater-dolphin-kicks-win-races/ (http://www.timedfinals.com/27032007/learn-from-phelps-underwater-dolphin-kicks-win-races/)

ande
November 12th, 2007, 10:11 PM
this is a good example of a high SDK count
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym_ks0aHkCE

I don't think Thorpe trained to take more than a couple kicks
each swimmer needs to figure out what works best


This is a good example of a low SDK count.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwvMKdnQW-I