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SwimStud
December 13th, 2007, 01:48 PM
Maybe Barry Bonds' record doesn't desrve so much criticism now. While I think it's a pity that he may have resorted to steroids/HGH...now that it emerges than pitchers were on juice, maybe his record is more valid. I'm not looking at ths in a moral and ethical judging way, but in an abstract analytical thought....

If the person tossing the ball at him can throw it harder and faster due to steroids, is his ability to knock it out of the park as illegitimate than it first appeared?

thewookiee
December 13th, 2007, 01:52 PM
Has Bond's actually tested positive? Why is it, we jump all over Bonds but not Lance Armstrong?

There have been lots of reports saying Armstrong used steroids/illegal preformance enhancing drugs, just like reports saying Bonds has used them.

We are quick to defend Lance but even quicker to throw Barry under the bus. This seems like a double standard to me.

SwimStud
December 13th, 2007, 01:55 PM
Has Bond's actually tested positive? Why is it, we jump all over Bonds but not Lance Armstrong?

There have been lots of reports saying Armstrong used steroids/illegal preformance enhancing drugs, just like reports saying Bonds has used them.

We are quick to defend Lance but even quicker to throw Barry under the bus. This seems like a double standard to me.

I'm calling for a potential re-evaluation of the perception of Bonds' record...I never jumped on him about it. It's stupid game IMHO anyhow.

knelson
December 13th, 2007, 02:16 PM
If the person tossing the ball at him can throw it harder and faster due to steroids, is his ability to knock it out of the park as illegitimate than it first appeared?

Yes, because you can hit a ball harder that was pitched harder. Maybe you'll miss that hard pitch a little more, but when you connect you're going to hit it a long way.

thewookiee
December 13th, 2007, 02:45 PM
I'm calling for a potential re-evaluation of the perception of Bonds' record...I never jumped on him about it. It's stupid game IMHO anyhow.



Never said you did or implied that you did. I just have phrased it a little better...I find it interesting that he is the son of satan and lance is all heavenly.

I wish our leaders would use their time better than to worry about grown-ups using drugs in sports. If the sports governing bodies don't want to do anything about it...that should be up to them. Track, FINA, USS(sorry, I like the old name better) are working at getting rid of drugs. They face a big task but one they won't quit on.

Blackbeard's Peg
December 13th, 2007, 02:47 PM
Has Bond's actually tested positive? Why is it, we jump all over Bonds but not Lance Armstrong?

There have been lots of reports saying Armstrong used steroids/illegal preformance enhancing drugs, just like reports saying Bonds has used them.

We are quick to defend Lance but even quicker to throw Barry under the bus. This seems like a double standard to me.

True, neither have tested positive, but I for one do not think comparing Barry and Lance is valid. I jump over Barry because trained under a the auspices of convicted performance-enhancing dude Victor Conte. And the kicker is that Barry has admitted to using some of Conte's drugs, though also admitting he had no idea what they were (ie flackseed oil). Both the MLB (passively) and the Feds are after Bonds.

Lance - no connections. No positive tests. And one newspaper is after Lance.

Hard to have a double standard when the one guy admits to getting help.

Frank Thompson
December 13th, 2007, 02:50 PM
I'm calling for a potential re-evaluation of the perception of Bonds' record...I never jumped on him about it. It's stupid game IMHO anyhow.

I just saw that the Mitchell Report has been released today and the report will name names and it expected to be worse that originally predicted. Roger Clemmons heads the list of this suprise and it will be interesting to see if these players are evaulated and judged like Barry Bonds was.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-mitchellreport&prov=ap&type=lgns

thewookiee
December 13th, 2007, 02:53 PM
Yes, bonds said he used some of conte's drugs. But has never tested positive for HGH or Steroids... just like armstrong never tested positive.

So, it is a double standard when we praise one and attack the other, when both are under the umbrella of using illegal drugs. MLB wants to go after Bonds...just like the French go after armstrong...same concept...different groups doing it.

Stillhere
December 13th, 2007, 03:20 PM
They are cheaters and should get serious bans from MLB....NEXT!

SwimStud
December 13th, 2007, 03:54 PM
Yes, because you can hit a ball harder that was pitched harder. Maybe you'll miss that hard pitch a little more, but when you connect you're going to hit it a long way.

Hmmm, so then the pitchers are 50% responsible for the record...it still alleviates some responsibility from him. At least in the way I am looking at it.

craiglll@yahoo.com
December 13th, 2007, 03:54 PM
The report makes it rather clear. There used to be a player in Baltimore who had a wife who swam. She was even featured in whatever magazine we were reading then. I never heard anything about him taking stuff but he had all of the "symptoms." I always wondered if he did use when I'd watch him.

Steroids are certainly wide spread. What amazes me is that we act so amazed or shocked when we find out things like this. We really have to get over our naivete. Why shouldn't people cheat? What's to stop them? People have cheated since the first race. I am not condoning it nor promoting it. I wonder how much is in masters swimming? I've read different people onhere say what would be the advantage. To some winning is so important that they can't understand not doing everything, even cheating to win.

Also, I've done some very extensive searches trying to find studies that outline specific, exact health problems related to steroid use. There are very few actual studies that say this is a proven side-effect of steroid use. Many are ancedotal and most are not good science. I would be really interested in some one referencing a good study. Most of the governmental studies I've found are really nothing more than trying to develop effective ways to discourage teenagers from taking steroids. Lots of warnigns but no actual science or proof.

ALM
December 13th, 2007, 11:36 PM
Also, I've done some very extensive searches trying to find studies that outline specific, exact health problems related to steroid use. There are very few actual studies that say this is a proven side-effect of steroid use. Many are ancedotal and most are not good science. I would be really interested in some one referencing a good study. Most of the governmental studies I've found are really nothing more than trying to develop effective ways to discourage teenagers from taking steroids. Lots of warnigns but no actual science or proof.

From the Reuters news story, "Why use steroids? They work" at:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071213/hl_nm/baseball_steroids_effects_dc_2;_ylt=Ag3Zxt1b8F5ISE U8W_69JlUE1vAI

"..They can cause acne, enlarged breasts and shrunken testicles in
men. They cause women to grow facial hair and can lead to
infertility in both sexes.

Yet some players still use them. Why? Because they can help build
muscle and endurance more quickly, mostly by speeding recovery
from strenuous workouts, experts say...."

ViveBene
December 14th, 2007, 03:16 AM
I've done some very extensive searches trying to find studies that outline specific, exact health problems related to steroid use. There are very few actual studies that say this is a proven side-effect of steroid use. Many are ancedotal and most are not good science. I would be really interested in some one referencing a good study...

Here is a link to PubMed. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

A quick search of the medical journal articles turned up, among others, long-term steroid use exacerbating the condition for which it was prescribed, and brain effects -- altering cognition and behavior (changing how future payoff of an action was perceived).

I would expect higher rates of depression and suicide among, say, athletes of former Soviet bloc countries and former East Germany who realized they had been given a cocktail of sex hormones during their performance years.

'Roid rage (bystander effect: other people get hurt), liver tumors, dependency on opioids to address steroid-related insomnia. Here's another link: http://www.steroidabuse.gov/

Regards, VB

Leonard Jansen
December 14th, 2007, 07:51 AM
Here's a link to a list of the people named, so you don't have to read the entire 400+ page Mitchell reoprt:

http://wcbstv.com/sports/mitchell.report.list.2.610409.html

-LBJ

The Fortress
December 14th, 2007, 08:40 AM
Hmmm, so then the pitchers are 50% responsible for the record...it still alleviates some responsibility from him. At least in the way I am looking at it.

Sad to say it, but Clemens should join Bonds in baseball's version of hell. Same story. Not satisfied with greatness and wealth, he had to break every record in the book and play long past his prime with the help of drugs. I see he is "emphatically denying everything" and compounding his lying ...

geochuck
December 14th, 2007, 10:00 AM
Taking testimony from drug dealers and judging their sentences by how many athletes they expose sounds wrong to me. It does not mean the accussed are guilty of anything.

His report should also include all the USA Olympians who are accussed and never tested positive and give every one a bad name guilty or not.

Then he should write a report on Cyclists, expose all their names weather proven guilty or not.

Trust a drug dealer to be your source of info and get lots of lies then base a report on it, sounds and smells fishy to me.

Stillhere
December 14th, 2007, 10:03 AM
Fortress, you are 100% dead on there! The lying, the-- I did not do this nonsense, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. All classic symptoms of cheating, drug using rats with world class egos.

When the evidence is overwhelming and irrefutable keep them out of the Hall of Fame, prevent them from playing in MLB and prevent them from going to the ball parks forever, because they have horribly disgraced the game of baseball.

Shoeless Joe Jackson would roll over in his grave if he knew how much these cheaters surpassed his turn of the century mistakes.

Stillhere
December 14th, 2007, 10:07 AM
George:
We can make the same argument about Pete Rose. No one in authority watched him place bets on his own teams. Yet, everyone knows he bet on baseball, based on overwhelming evidence. Gosh, what is the standard of proof? Where do we draw the line they hide behind?

geochuck
December 14th, 2007, 10:15 AM
My Doctor who gave me a vile of steroid pills in the 50s and a prescription for them. He could say I was on steroids. Which would be completely false. I took one of these little pink pills, read up on them and threw them away.

Stillhere
December 14th, 2007, 10:20 AM
George, that hardly qualifies or even comes close to the well planned, funded, illegal and rampant use of performance enhancing drug use as we see here. Heck, that is akin to a grain of sand to the entire beach.

SwimStud
December 14th, 2007, 10:21 AM
Shoeless Joe Jackson would roll over in his grave if he knew how much these cheaters surpassed his turn of the century mistakes.

I am sure he would balk...

:laugh2:

My Doctor who gave me a vile of steroid pills in the 50s and a prescription for them. He could say I was on steroids. Which would be completely false. I took one of these little pink pills, read up on them and threw them away.
Just don't toss out the little blue ones....

knelson
December 14th, 2007, 01:01 PM
I am sure he would balk...

:laugh2:

For someone who thinks baseball is a "stupid game," you have an impressive knowledge of the minutia of baseball rules!
...

Shoeless Joe rolling over in his grave? Maybe we're splitting hairs here over what's the worst type of cheating, but I still think accepting money to throw a World Series trumps doing something to improve your, and hence, your team's performance, however misguided.

thewookiee
December 14th, 2007, 01:10 PM
i think what the players get paid to play a game is the worse than all of these or the fact people pay the ticket prices to go see em play

Rob Copeland
December 14th, 2007, 01:32 PM
…There used to be a player in Baltimore who had a wife who swam. She was even featured in whatever magazine we were reading then. I never heard anything about him taking stuff but he had all of the “symptoms."


"..They can cause acne, enlarged breasts and shrunken testicles in men.

Craig, were you hanging out in the Orioles locker room to see he had all these symptoms?;):blush:

Any why just go after the players? The un-named co-conspirators in this are Major League Baseball and the owners. Bud Selig either knew about this and did nothing or he unaware of the problem. If he was unaware then he and his staff should resign for being incompetent. If they knew and did nothing they should resign for condoning or even supporting drug use by players.

knelson
December 14th, 2007, 01:36 PM
Something that crossed my mind a while ago was how we were subjected to, just a few years back, all this discussion about what was causing the sudden surge in power numbers. Was it the dimensions of the new parks? Was it the increased emphasis on weight training? Was it the juiced ball? I guess I didn't realize at the time the "juiced ball" was really just a euphemism for "juiced athletes."

thewookiee
December 14th, 2007, 01:37 PM
If he was unaware then he and his staff should resign for being incompetent.

Remember...we are talking about the same guy that decided to make a game come to a tie...

Karen Duggan
December 14th, 2007, 01:53 PM
I've been a baseball fan since I was 7. It really is a pretty boring game to watch but still I like it. When I was a teenager I REALLY got into "looking" at the players more than paying attention to the game! Anyway, I guess I like to watch most sports and consider myself a sports fan.

What really bothers me with all of this is the ludicrous salaries that these people earn, and we the fans who spend money on these activities, are footing the bill. These salaries have always infuriated me, but to know I've been paying to watch people cheat. Oh, yea, fun :(

I haven't been to a SF Giants game in awhile (just busy mostly) but I don't plan on attending in the near future. Just my little way to protest.

I'd really like to see organized professional sports go backward in progress, whereas the players make comparable salaries to "normal" people, there was some loyalty to a team, and the players play because they love the game-not to get rich. Unfortunately, that's not likely to happen and is wholly unrealisitic. So, I guess I'll stick with spending my money on other things.

SwimStud
December 14th, 2007, 02:27 PM
For someone who thinks baseball is a "stupid game," you have an impressive knowledge of the minutia of baseball rules!
...


Hehe Kirk..well I couldn't have any worthy opinion of it if I didn't at least try to understand it, right? It's just not for me...as a sport. Don't get me wrong...Cricket is any better... :)


...I never heard anything about him taking stuff but he had all of the "symptoms." I always wondered if he did use when I'd watch him.



"..They can cause acne, enlarged breasts and shrunken testicles in
men. They cause women to grow facial hair and can lead to
infertility in both sexes..."


Craig, were you hanging out in the Orioles locker room to see he had all these symptoms?;):blush:


I saw that Movie, Rob..."The Crying Game"

haha

ALM
December 14th, 2007, 05:11 PM
The un-named co-conspirators in this are Major League Baseball and the owners.

And don't forget who used to be an owner... George W.

craiglll@yahoo.com
December 14th, 2007, 09:41 PM
Craig, were you hanging out in the Orioles locker room to see he had all these symptoms?;):blush:

Any why just go after the players? The un-named co-conspirators in this are Major League Baseball and the owners. Bud Selig either knew about this and did nothing or he unaware of the problem. If he was unaware then he and his staff should resign for being incompetent. If they knew and did nothing they should resign for condoning or even supporting drug use by players.

I agree, if we are going to get the players then why not the people providing. I live in Champaign/Urbana, IL. I have often wondered if Bud Selig was all that bright. I've never met the guy but he does seem to be limited. There is a guy here who has made his life work creating undetectable performance enhancing substances.

The guy in Baltimore put on some muscle mass rather quickly. A MD/PT friend of mine pointed out this out to me, at the time, that he saw many physical characteristics that tend to indicate steroid use. My friend has been in the situation where he was a team physician for a university's basketball team. He said that some of the indicators are (this is not a complete list and are things that he tended to look for) Rapidly blinking eyes in a pattern, then not blinking. Say 3 to 4 blinks very fast then not blinking and appearing that the person doesn't really have control of the blink. Stretch marks on pec, buttocks, where the muscle has grown faster than the skin. twitches on hands and feet. growing forehead and overall head size. very extreme muscle striation. I'm not saying that these are absolute indicators of steroid use but there are many doctors I've talked with who say there are very evident physical indicators of steroid use. also at the time there were other players in Baltimore who were using.

The Fortress
December 14th, 2007, 09:41 PM
[/quote=Rob Copeland;116818Any why just go after the players? The un-named co-conspirators in this are Major League Baseball and the owners. Bud Selig either knew about this and did nothing or he unaware of the problem. If he was unaware then he and his staff should resign for being incompetent. If they knew and did nothing they should resign for condoning or even supporting drug use by players.[/quote].

Selig is an ineffectual disaster. He handled the release of The Mitchell Report clumsily as well.

In reference to an earlier comment, Rose finally confessed.

Yes, there are legal niceties and there is a lot of circumstantial evidence in the report, but I think these guys were using steroids. Sure makes Canseco, whose 2005 book was much derided, look pretty smart now.

Oh, Palmeiro tried the same approach as Clemens. Stridently announced his innocence. But then months later tested positive. Of course, Clemens in now retired so won't test positive. Will he be as villifed as Bonds though?

pwolf66
December 15th, 2007, 11:35 AM
Any why just go after the players? The un-named co-conspirators in this are Major League Baseball and the owners. Bud Selig either knew about this and did nothing or he unaware of the problem. If he was unaware then he and his staff should resign for being incompetent. If they knew and did nothing they should resign for condoning or even supporting drug use by players.

Rob, you nailed this one out of the park. Yes, let's talk about WHO needs to share the blame for this. Let's see, shortly after the last labor strike baseball was floundering with getting fans back, then all of a sudden what do you have? 2 players who had never hit more than 60 HRs in a season were steadily driving towards baseball's single season HR record. Interest in baseball is back.

Over the next 3-4 years, players all over seem to be geting bigger, stronger and are hitting more HRs than ever. Even back in '96 there was rampant talk of performance enhancing drugs but did MLB management take any action? No. Did the owners (aka the REAL MLB management) take action? No. because at the time, that was good for the game as the commerical says 'people dig the long ball'

Heck, 2 years earlier you had a player who had NEVER hit more than 21 homers in a single season hit 50. And he never hit more than 24 after that. Mostly because it seemed his body just broke down on him. This was also seen in McGuire's case too.

At this point, MLB needs to step forward and say 'Yes, we are to blame for letting this continue on for as long as it has and we should have taken steps to prevent it' and then actually put forth serious effort to put a stop to it. No more, 60 day, 120 day, etc. Once and you're OUT for life.
Either that or give it up and make it OK to use performance enhancing drugs. I mean seriously, where is the line? Tommy John surgery? Doesn't that have a measure of performance enhancement? High altitude training? New and enhanced training methods? Better diets? Supplements such as creatine and glycogen? WHERE is the line?

And MLB's anti-trust exemption should be terminated immediately. This has gone on long enough. But issues such as that are for a rant on a completely different forum.

Paul

Redbird Alum
December 15th, 2007, 04:40 PM
I'd really like to see organized professional sports go backward in progress, whereas the players make comparable salaries to "normal" people, there was some loyalty to a team, and the players play because they love the game-not to get rich.

Karen, try class AA or class AAA teams. Not only do the players make less, they have to love what they're doing to put up with the travel situation and accomodations. Plus, the parks are more intimate, often have hilarious between inning games, drawings and whatnot, and the food is much more reasonable. I go to a few of them every summer just for the fun of it.

Karen Duggan
December 15th, 2007, 07:39 PM
Redbird
You're right. I love AAA games. I've only been to them back East when I've visited (Pat's/our) family in CT. We've seen the New Haven Ravens, the Bridgeport Bluefish, and the CT Defenders (Giants affiliate) a few times. It was SO much fun. Almost caught some foul ball behind the plate in seats that were $7.00! Gotta love it.
I wonder though how many of them (in the minors) are juicin' to get to the majors? People do strange things for money!

Stillhere
December 17th, 2007, 10:38 AM
The Fortress Wrote:
"Selig is an ineffectual disaster" Dead on there!

Gosh, Selig is such a dork that he went to post Mitchell Report news conference and said he had not read the report in full.

Class and brains at there finest......