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CreamPuff
January 20th, 2008, 08:20 PM
I see that the 1st USMS 25K National Championship will be held in Noblesville, IN on July 19. Anyone planning to do this? Sounds sort of crazy. But. . . could be fun to try provided the training is there. . .

Husband just walked by and I mentioned I wanted to *maybe* do this. His response was, "Don't I provide enough for you?"
If only he knew the swimmer's mind. . .

some_girl
January 20th, 2008, 08:59 PM
Not enough money in the entire universe ...

KaizenSwimmer
January 20th, 2008, 09:15 PM
There are pretty good odds that both Dave Barra and I would do this. Personally I doubt I'd train any differently for 25K than I would for 10K. My focus for the summer will still be on shorter races - especially the 2-Mile Cable Championship one week earlier. My strategy would simply be to pace carefully, swim with maximal economy and feed intelligently.

On the other hand, if Dave and I can get three ADMS teammates to join us, it might be pretty hard to pass up the first USMS LD Relay Championship. They're swum at the same time so we couldn't do both.

blainesapprentice
January 20th, 2008, 09:21 PM
There are pretty good odds that both Dave Barra and I would do this. Personally I doubt I'd train any differently for 25K than I would for 10K. My focus for the summer will still be on shorter races - especially the 2-Mile Cable Championship one week earlier. My strategy would simply be to pace carefully, swim with maximal economy and feed intelligently.

On the other hand, if Dave and I can get three ADMS teammates to join us, it might be pretty hard to pass up the first USMS LD Relay Championship. They're swum at the same time so we couldn't do both.

I'm an ADMS swimmer, and I was thinking I might consider 1. doing the whole thing...which would be way beyond anything I had ever done before--but I'm sure I could do it pretty efficiently if I trained in some way for it...but keep me in mind for the relay if you find yourself needing just one more person--I'd really look into going seriously.

KaizenSwimmer
January 20th, 2008, 09:25 PM
keep me in mind for the relay if you find yourself needing just one more person--I'd really look into going seriously.

Morgan, if you're an Adirondack Master,we'd love to have you join us for a relay. Maybe we can even get two relays.

Can you join us at Lake Minnewaska next summer for some wonderful lake laps?

pwolf66
January 20th, 2008, 09:50 PM
You people are absolutely bug, freaking nuts. Just my opinion. :thhbbb:

I don't like to DRIVE that far.

Paul

blainesapprentice
January 20th, 2008, 10:17 PM
Morgan, if you're an Adirondack Master,we'd love to have you join us for a relay. Maybe we can even get two relays.

Can you join us at Lake Minnewaska next summer for some wonderful lake laps?

I actually have to renew my membership--I'll send that out tomorrow, well Tuesday. But I would love to join you guys at lake minnewaska this summer--last summer I did some kayaking and saw the lap area and looked into swimming there with you guys once in a while but I just didn't have the work schedule to make it workout. Hopefully this summer I will have a better work schedule.

I need to check into some logistics with the date and getting there and such, but I will keep the relay in mind seriously.

Blackbeard's Peg
January 20th, 2008, 10:18 PM
There are pretty good odds that both Dave Barra and I would do this.

The first two people I thought of when I saw this thread title... you guys are nuts! :groovy:

Glider
January 20th, 2008, 10:56 PM
What *is* this??? The Tour de Indiana. 25K over several legs in a week or so, right?

Man I barely do that kinda yardage in a week. Like I've told ya, Kristina, I don't do distance...

I'm a breaststroker and we're smarter than that:duel::thhbbb:


I see that the 1st USMS 25K National Championship will be held in Noblesville, IN on July 19. Anyone planning to do this? Sounds sort of crazy. But. . . could be fun to try provided the training is there. . .

Husband just walked by and I mentioned I wanted to *maybe* do this. His response was, "Don't I provide enough for you?"
If only he knew the swimmer's mind. . .

poolraat
January 20th, 2008, 11:47 PM
You people are absolutely bug, freaking nuts. Just my opinion. :thhbbb:

I don't like to DRIVE that far.

Paul

I with you on this one Paul.

thewookiee
January 21st, 2008, 08:57 AM
Gotta agree Jeff and some of the others...25k...people are nuts. I love to to swim and love to race...but that's a bit much. Then again, I think the 1 hour postal swim is nuts too but thats my $.000000000000002

CreamPuff
January 21st, 2008, 09:08 AM
Yeah. It is pretty crazy. What's USMS thinking?!

I think it would be fun to meet Morgan, Terry, and Dave.

Just trying to determine the best goal for this swim (due to it's extreme nature.)
Show up and try it and not worry about whether I finish. OR
Show up, try it, and do whatever I can to finish it.

Like Terry said, feeding/ hydrating would be key. Or you'll be out of the race.
Really, you will only train like it's a 10K?

Still not really sure I'd do this. I wonder how clean this reservoir is. I don't think I could take 6 hours of dirty.

Glider, give me free over breaststroke any day! :rofl:

Blackbeard's Peg
January 21st, 2008, 09:28 AM
I think it would be fun to meet Morgan, Terry, and Dave.

Just trying to determine the best goal for this swim (due to it's extreme nature.)
Show up and try it and not worry about whether I finish. OR
Show up, try it, and do whatever I can to finish it.

Like Terry said, feeding/ hydrating would be key. Or you'll be out of the race.
Really, you will only train like it's a 10K?

Having met two of that crew (Dave & Morgan), I can tell you they're quite cool people. I am convinced that Dave and Terry were some sort of large marine mammal in a former life. They're usually the first to jump at the opportunity to swim in some of these OW events. They'll swim anything! :)

As for training, I don't really train for the 4.4 mi Bay swim. I just try to get some distance in during practice, and like you mention above, do whatever I can do finish it. Were I to be doing this event, I'd be doing the same thing - get some distance in during workouts, and just keep swimming! You can't really taper for this kind of distance... :fish2:

thewookiee
January 21st, 2008, 10:26 AM
Kristina,


If you show up, then make it the goal to finish. No point in starting it if you aren't going to do it the whole way.

geochuck
January 21st, 2008, 10:29 AM
Been there, done that and a few K more. Do we really need a race over 50 or 100m or y.

KaizenSwimmer
January 21st, 2008, 05:03 PM
Really, you will only train like it's a 10K?

I know to some it seems certifiable to swim a 25K, but the main challenge will be mental, not physical. Staying focused on one stroke at a time...for 25,000 to 30,000 strokes...is the key to completing it with a minimum of boredom and fatigue. But the capacity to develop mental stamina - and have that translate to greater physical stamina - is remarkable.

I've already swum 46K - the 28.5-mile Manhattan Island Marathon - twice. The first time I didn't do anything special in training. I averaged about 16k yards per week, with a peak week of 25k for just one week. I wanted to do the swim as an experiment in doing an ultramarathon distance on very ordinary training. I completed it in nine hours by focusing on one stroke at a time and making each of those strokes as economical as possible. I was thoroughly dehydrated at the finish, but once I had rehydrated, I felt no soreness or fatigue.

Because the 25K is so utterly different from anything else I would race this summer, I wouldn't modify my training very much to prepare. I'd continue training with a focus on distances from 1.5k to 5k. I anticipate it would be about eight hours of swimming. I'd plan to feed or hydrate every 30 minutes, get advice on what to put in my bottles from a friend who's an MD and done a detailed study of feeding during marathon swims - and who has completed the Catalina Channel - and use focal points that minimized drag and fatigue and maximized mechanical advantage on each stroke.

That much said, it would be so much fun to do a 5 x 5 relay for a National Championship that I'll take that route if we can put some good ADMS/TI relays together.

Kurt Dickson
January 21st, 2008, 05:46 PM
This one kind of calls me then I read, "We encourage solo swimmers to bring
their own paddlers and kayaks." I'm from Arizona: Are these items supposed to fit in the overhead compartment? I assume the kayak thing is non-negotiable due to liability reasons (although I think a kayaker or two might kick-off as 25K is a long way to swim or kayak). Therefore, I predict only local competition (Indianapolis area) unless Southwest Airlines starts fitting their planes with roof racks or race organizers consider providing kayakers. Probably just as well as old people have no business going 25K.:wave:

Leonard Jansen
January 21st, 2008, 05:54 PM
The entry says that you can rent kayaks there for $30, so it would probably mean only getting someone to do the kayaking. If you can't bring someone with you, then perhaps a local kayak club could help. When I did MIMS in 2006, I had the BEST kayaker EVER, just by pure luck of the draw. If I do it again some day, I'm going to beg her to be my kayaker again.

The 25k is so tempting, but with all that is going on right now in my life, it's probably not realistic. Big props to USMS for having it, though. Also, I notice that Marcia Cleveland is involved and she has a rep for doing things right.

-LBJ

Rob Copeland
January 21st, 2008, 05:59 PM
Typically the race organizers will assist swimmers in locating kayakers and kayaks. And often they will make arrangements with a local canoe and kayak club to find volunteers for swimmers in need. However, it is usually the responsibility of the swimmer to line up their escort craft or else it is included as part of a much larger entry fee.

And older swimmers have every right to participate in this event.

thewookiee
January 21st, 2008, 06:13 PM
Been there, done that and a few K more. Do we really need a race over 50 or 100m or y.


yea, we do. some of us take a 75 to 100 just to get going. that's why I like the 200 free/back. I think we could do without the 50 and the 1650 though.

knelson
January 21st, 2008, 06:49 PM
It seems like a 25K would be a hard sell for a kayaker. We're talking a minimum of probably six hours paddling and could be considerably more.

Kurt Dickson
January 21st, 2008, 08:25 PM
Typically the race organizers will assist swimmers in locating kayakers and kayaks. And often they will make arrangements with a local canoe and kayak club to find volunteers for swimmers in need. However, it is usually the responsibility of the swimmer to line up their escort craft or else it is included as part of a much larger entry fee.

And older swimmers have every right to participate in this event.

I did not notice on the entry form that race organizers will assist in locating kayakers, but maybe I missed it. A suggestion might be to add at least $100 dollars to the entry to provide for kayakers (who possibly would be willing to kayak for free donating it to a local charity). I think the suggestion that finding kayakers willing and able to go that far is a very real problem.

While my comment about old people swimming that far was meant to be humor (I'm pretty sure young swimmers do not even read this forum), I think 25K may be getting into dangerous territory for general masters swimming as it involves 6-10 hours of endurance (if you bonk running or biking you can stop, while in swimming, you may sink gracefully to the bottom hoping for good visibility and the chance to swoop your butt off the reservoir floor). Since I have no real experience in swimming that far, however, I will defer to the experts. :drown:

CreamPuff
January 21st, 2008, 08:28 PM
I'm wondering if I could last 6+ hours in the water. I get cold easily and I refuse to pack on the lbs for this. Sigh. Getting the escort will be an issue. . .
I may have to settle for the puny 10K in Clemson. See how that goes. . .

Kurt Dickson
January 21st, 2008, 09:42 PM
[QUOTE=(S)he-Man;119789 I get cold easily and I refuse to pack on the lbs for this. Sigh.

I wish I had the option to refuse to get fat...I'm already living the dream.:)

Rob Copeland
January 21st, 2008, 11:34 PM
I get cold easily and I refuse to pack on the lbs for this. Kristina,

You don’t need to pack on the pounds to fend off the cold. Gail Rice is a perfect example of a swimmer who swam slim, and she swam the English Channel without ill effect.

Don’t let this dissuade you.

Do you get cold when you are working hard or when you are on the wall between sets?

aztimm
January 21st, 2008, 11:58 PM
Anyone know what the water temp would be like?

Also, the only thing I could find on this was this flyer:
https://www.usms.org/admin/stream2007fall.pdf

Is there an entry online somewhere, if so would someone post the link?

After doing the 100x100's a few weeks ago (in a pool), I think doing a long swim like this would be interesting.


We have a guy on my team who has done the Long Island Sound swim as part of a relay a few times (from CT to LI), I think it is about 15 miles, but on the relay he had to take breaks regularly. I know he wanted to do it all himself last year, but the demand for that event was too strong.

chaos
January 22nd, 2008, 12:06 AM
as i will probably be sitting in a kayak for the mims this year (july 5th), i will be happy to let someone else (clare) paddle / guide me through this one. i've got my calender marked.

CreamPuff
January 22nd, 2008, 08:55 AM
Kristina,

You don’t need to pack on the pounds to fend off the cold. Gail Rice is a perfect example of a swimmer who swam slim, and she swam the English Channel without ill effect.

Don’t let this dissuade you.

Do you get cold when you are working hard or when you are on the wall between sets?

Right on. Basically, I need to review my own signature! :rofl:

I never get cold when working hard or even swimming moderately. Only get cold when I stop. I think that's most people. After 6+ hours, I'm not totally sure what would happen.

Rob, are you going to be swimming or working the Clemson 10K?

Rob Copeland
January 22nd, 2008, 09:33 AM
Rob, are you going to be swimming or working the Clemson 10K?Yes, I plan on swimming the Clemson 10K.

And while I carry more, letís just call it extra insulation; from person experience as long as Iím swimming hard and taking in the calories, I donít normally get cold during long swims. Unless it gets real cold (40ís -50ís) swimmers who are, well, swimming, normally stay warm. If you look at todayís top marathon swimmers, you will see most arenít carrying extra weigh for warmth.

bud
January 22nd, 2008, 10:39 AM
... Is there an entry online somewhere, if so would someone post the link?....
at:
http://www.usms.org/comp/calendar.php
look for the date:
7/19/2008

You will find other events listed there as well.

Have Fun!

...

KaizenSwimmer
January 22nd, 2008, 11:01 AM
Yes, I plan on swimming the Clemson 10K.

I did the 5K at Clemson two years ago and the murky, warm, man-made reservoir was so much less pleasant as a swimming environment than the natural Hudson Valley and Adirondack lakes that I can't motivate myself for a 10K there.

Also the NEMS LCM championship is that weekend and would be my only pool racing for the summer so I'll do that and spend as many other weekends as possible in OW.

CreamPuff
January 22nd, 2008, 09:08 PM
I did the 5K at Clemson two years ago and the murky, warm, man-made reservoir was so much less pleasant as a swimming environment than the natural Hudson Valley and Adirondack lakes that I can't motivate myself for a 10K there.



Thanks for the reminder on this lake. I grew up water skiing on it, so I am used to the dirt and grime. I don't know anything different. Oh except there's a Lake Dow in McDonough, GA. It wins the nasty award. Swam in it anyway.

CreamPuff
January 23rd, 2008, 08:26 AM
Yes, I plan on swimming the Clemson 10K.

And while I carry more, letís just call it extra insulation; from person experience as long as Iím swimming hard and taking in the calories, I donít normally get cold during long swims. Unless it gets real cold (40ís -50ís) swimmers who are, well, swimming, normally stay warm. If you look at todayís top marathon swimmers, you will see most arenít carrying extra weigh for warmth.

Awesome. I hope to see you there. Can I draft off you? :joker:

What made me think about body type and long distance swimming were these photos I came across. They show Marcos Diaz (an amazing swimming) who has very little body fat and was pulled from the Tampa Bay Marathon in '05 due to hypothermia vs. the overall winner Forrest Nelson who has a different body type from Diaz.

http://www.distancematters.com/marathon/2005/3nelson2.jpg
http://www.distancematters.com/marathon/2005/1diaz.jpg

Rob Copeland
January 23rd, 2008, 08:52 AM
Awesome. I hope to see you there. Can I draft off you? :joker:Only if you plan on swimming really slow. And only if you let me draft off you in the 25K.

And check out the photos of marathon swimmers Angela Maurer and Vladimir Dyatchin on the FINA web site. These swimmers are succeeding in swims longer and colder that the USMS 25K and neither is carrying much extra insulation.
http://www.fina.org/project/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=168&Itemid=52

CreamPuff
January 23rd, 2008, 09:08 AM
Only if you plan on swimming really slow. And only if you let me draft off you in the 25K.

And check out the photos of marathon swimmers Angela Maurer and Vladimir Dyatchin on the FINA web site. These swimmers are succeeding in swims longer and colder that the USMS 25K and neither is carrying much extra insulation.
http://www.fina.org/project/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=168&Itemid=52

Whatever! You are WAY faster than I am. :bow:

Great examples particularly since Vladimir had some major injuries from the jellyfish. I see what you are saying. However, how old is this kid? 12? :joker: Not that young, but he's gotta be in his 20s at most.

Need to switch to OW swimming. They don't post age ANYWHERE.

Kevin in MD
January 23rd, 2008, 11:22 AM
I hadn't seen those pictures in a while. What a freakin day! It was my first go at a marathon swim, kicked my ass and I haven't had the nerve to try another one.

I think these pictures tell the story of the day.
Picture 1 (http://www.distancematters.com/marathon/2005/2parcells.jpg) is the late and great Dave Parcells being swamped by a wave
Picture 2 (http://www.distancematters.com/marathon/2005/2magourk.jpg) is another showing the white caps that were out that day.

We took off and after an hour or so started the big turn around Pinellas point and right into a stiff northerly wind that was fetching up waves across a huge expanse of the bay. My hats off to the guys who made it the whole way. I bailed after 4 and a half hours of getting tossed around and getting seasick.



What made me think about body type and long distance swimming were these photos I came across. They show Marcos Diaz (an amazing swimming) who has very little body fat and was pulled from the Tampa Bay Marathon in '05 due to hypothermia vs. the overall winner Forrest Nelson who has a different body type from Diaz.

http://www.distancematters.com/marathon/2005/3nelson2.jpg
http://www.distancematters.com/marathon/2005/1diaz.jpg

CreamPuff
January 23rd, 2008, 11:37 AM
How amazing that you attempted that swim! :bow:
I'd never try something like that. Must have been so cold that day.
Diaz looked really cold in that pic and I don't think you guys had even started the race yet.

And talk about rough looking waves. . . :weightlifter:

Looks like only one gal came close to finishing at 21 miles.

Here I am worried about a puny 25K. :doh:


I hadn't seen those pictures in a while. What a freakin day! It was my first go at a marathon swim, kicked my ass and I haven't had the nerve to try another one.

I think these pictures tell the story of the day.
Picture 1 (http://www.distancematters.com/marathon/2005/2parcells.jpg) is the late and great Dave Parcells being swamped by a wave
Picture 2 (http://www.distancematters.com/marathon/2005/2magourk.jpg) is another showing the white caps that were out that day.

We took off and after an hour or so started the big turn around Pinellas point and right into a stiff northerly wind that was fetching up waves across a huge expanse of the bay. My hats off to the guys who made it the whole way. I bailed after 4 and a half hours of getting tossed around and getting seasick.

robbieA
February 5th, 2008, 04:07 PM
So how hard is it?

Figure it is in a lake so waves and not a factor.
Figure again it is in a lake so it will be beyond boring.

what do you figure the level of fitness needed to finish?

Kurt Dickson
February 6th, 2008, 05:16 PM
So how hard is it?

Figure it is in a lake so waves and not a factor.
Figure again it is in a lake so it will be beyond boring.

what do you figure the level of fitness needed to finish?

It will be like doing an ironman. If your goal is to finish, piece of cake (with not much increase in training level). If your goal is swim fast, pain beyond your wildest dreams (and a great increase in yardage leading up to it).

robbieA
February 7th, 2008, 03:08 PM
Goal would be to finish.

Probally lead off on a SKY relay. Then go the rest of the way solo. Think they will let you do that?

Dum Question: If it is a set course why do we need a kayaker?
Of course there is the feeding issue, but I am sure something could be worked out with a platform.

I have used a kayaker for open water where a guide was needed but this is a lake.

Kurt Dickson
February 8th, 2008, 11:01 AM
Goal would be to finish.

Probally lead off on a SKY relay. Then go the rest of the way solo. Think they will let you do that?

Dum Question: If it is a set course why do we need a kayaker?
Of course there is the feeding issue, but I am sure something could be worked out with a platform.

I have used a kayaker for open water where a guide was needed but this is a lake.

I would think they would let you do both if you are lead off for a relay (I do that a lot in triathlons--swim leg of relay and then keep going individually).

The answer to your next question--lawyers. Liability is too high. They will never let you go alone.

robbieA
February 8th, 2008, 12:47 PM
Which is odd as you swim the 10k solo. And races like GCBS which probally has a higher likelyhood of going down.

Kurt Dickson
February 8th, 2008, 05:48 PM
Which is odd as you swim the 10k solo. And races like GCBS which probally has a higher likelyhood of going down.

I don't know what normal policy is. I did the 10K masters nationals in 2006 and the event there required a kayak but they provided them (entry fee was like 100 dollars--and the kayakers donated the money back to a local charity for troubled youth).

lisamiller5466
February 17th, 2008, 12:25 PM
I am the 25k race director's wife and want to clarify the issue regarding the kayakers. My husband will have paddlers and kayaks available... he doesn't expect you to put your kayak on the plane. 25K is a long way to swim and to paddle, so expect that there will be some shift changes. Every 5K you will be back at the start/finish line and can exchange paddlers. There are several local canoe/kayak clubs that will assist and many from our local masters swim team have volunteered to assist as well. That being said, we encourage you to bring a paddler for your own advantage. Swimmer and kayaker work as a team, with the paddler supplying navigation, food, beverage and moral support and encouragement. If you have trained a few times with someone, it's likely the event will go more smoothly for you. Good luck with your training and I'm gonna get a relay together (NASTi women!! what fun!!!)......bring 'em on!!!!

lisamiller5466
February 17th, 2008, 12:26 PM
I am the 25k race director's wife and want to clarify the issue regarding the kayakers. My husband will have paddlers and kayaks available... he doesn't expect you to put your kayak on the plane. 25K is a long way to swim and to paddle, so expect that there will be some shift changes. Every 5K you will be back at the start/finish line and can exchange paddlers. There are several local canoe/kayak clubs that will assist and many from our local masters swim team have volunteered to assist as well. That being said, we encourage you to bring a paddler for your own advantage. Swimmer and kayaker work as a team, with the paddler supplying navigation, food, beverage and moral support and encouragement. If you have trained a few times with someone, it's likely the event will go more smoothly for you. Good luck with your training and I'm gonna get a relay together (NASTi women!! what fun!!!)......bring 'em on!!!!

dsidner
February 17th, 2008, 05:47 PM
In the 25K event, the kayaker will serve several purposes, most important, that of supplying food and fluids to the swimmer, but also for safety and navigation. As a condition for issuing a permit for the race, the Indiana Department of Natural Resources has requested the kayak escorts to aid navigation to prevent swimming in the center of the channel where rereational boaters will be moving at idle speed. All kayakers will have rescue tubes or other flotation devices as well as the special nutritional needs of each swimmer. Relays will not have personal escorts. Since it's only one lap of the course, nutritional needs should be minimal and there will be sufficient kayakers on the course for them to track as well as buoys.



I don't know what normal policy is. I did the 10K masters nationals in 2006 and the event there required a kayak but they provided them (entry fee was like 100 dollars--and the kayakers donated the money back to a local charity for troubled youth).