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BillS
January 31st, 2008, 11:52 AM
this Saturday and achieve fame, fortune, the accolades of my peers . . . and my true goal, an NQT. I need a 2:03.

50 PR is 24.79
100 PR is 55.46, split 26.55 28.91
200 PR is 2:04.24, split 30.31 31.50 31.44 30.99

I took that out too slow, but I've been gun-shy after this debacle:

2:06.86, split 29.06 30.79 33.15 33.86

I consoled myself by blaming that race on the altitude (we were at 3,000 or so and I swim at sea level), but it still hurts to look at.

I think the best 200 I ever split was SCM a year and a half ago:

2:19.90, split 33.17 35.46 35.49 35.78

I'm thinking that I need to be just under 1:00 for the 100 and bring it home from there? Can I even get to a 2:03 from my 50/100 times?

Thanks for the help.

geochuck
January 31st, 2008, 11:57 AM
Bill take it out faster and finish faster.

slknight
January 31st, 2008, 11:59 AM
I'm thinking that I need to be just under 1:00 for the 100 and bring it home from there? Can I even get to a 2:03 from my 50/100 times?



Yes. In my college swimming days, I went 55.4 in the 100 fly and 201.1 in the 200 fly. You ought to be able to get to a 2:03. I don't remember what I split though; let me see if I can dig up my splits somewhere.

ncswim
January 31st, 2008, 12:01 PM
Hi There, I'd suggest working on that middle part of the race.

I'd suggest do 50's on a pretty fast interval so your body get used to the endurance/ speed momentum.

Try 5 X 50 on 40.
The week after 10 X 50 on 40''
The week after 5 X 50 on 35"'
The week after 10 X 50 on 35"' etc

Good luck.

My two cents
Ncswim

TheGoodSmith
January 31st, 2008, 12:26 PM
A few thoughts on the 200 free....

- No more than a 3 second difference between the 1st and 2nd 100s on your splits. If you're a back halfer, a second and a half difference.

- Always work the 3rd 50 proportionately harder than you think you should. Throw in the legs if you have any.

- You should feel like throwing up on the 150 turn. Arms wasted and numb on the last 50.

- If it's short course, never give up a good turn ! A chance for a free 1 foot lead on every wall.


John Smith

ande
January 31st, 2008, 12:55 PM
john's right on the money
he was a 1:35 200 freestyler back in the day

Looking at your times
if you go 24.79 in the 50
in the 100 you should
go out in 25.79 and come home in at least 27.79
to go 53.58
you need to be more aggressive in the 100 fr you can go way faster than 55.46

your 2:04.24 200 where you split 30.31 31.50 31.44 30.99
I believe you can go
27.7 29.9 29.9 29.9

your splitting is pretty correct
my guess is you're afraid of dying so you took it too easy on the front end of your race

the 200 is a controlled sprint
don't kill yourself on the 1st 100
keep your 100's 1, 2, 3, or 4 seconds apart

finally to answer your Q
I'm thinking that I need to be just under 1:00 for the 100 and bring it home from there?
yes and you've got the speed to do go

Can I even get to a 2:03 from my 50/100 times?
Absolutely with out a doubt
take your 100 time double it and add 10 seconds
drop dead sprinters add 12 - 14
distance demons add 4 - 6

ie if you went 54.9 you should be able to break 2:00




this Saturday and achieve fame, fortune, the accolades of my peers . . . and my true goal, an NQT. I need a 2:03.

50 PR is 24.79
100 PR is 55.46, split 26.55 28.91
200 PR is 2:04.24, split 30.31 31.50 31.44 30.99

I took that out too slow, but I've been gun-shy after this debacle:

2:06.86, split 29.06 30.79 33.15 33.86

I consoled myself by blaming that race on the altitude (we were at 3,000 or so and I swim at sea level), but it still hurts to look at.

I think the best 200 I ever split was SCM a year and a half ago:

2:19.90, split 33.17 35.46 35.49 35.78

I'm thinking that I need to be just under 1:00 for the 100 and bring it home from there? Can I even get to a 2:03 from my 50/100 times?

Thanks for the help.

Blackbeard's Peg
January 31st, 2008, 01:11 PM
I absolutely agree with really working your 101-150 (ie 3rd 50). You're going to be dead on your last 50 no matter what you do on your previous 50, so you may as well build momentum and get a good 3rd split before you bring it home. It is painful but you have to stay mentally strong and hold on for that last 50. Personally, I build to the 100, at which point its ALL OUT from then on. Again, do NOT let your fatigue and the lactic acid pain get to you!!!

I like to point to the Blue Muppet's 2005 200 free as a great split example of this in action:

28.33
58.35 (30.02)
1:28.35 (30.00)
1:58.36 (30.01)

some other tips to help you get there...
wear a fastskin
keep your head in the water (aka don't breathe), especially in your last 50.
take advantage of your speed from the dive on your first 50

knelson
January 31st, 2008, 01:34 PM
the 200 is a controlled sprint
don't kill yourself on the 1st 100

Totally agree. You need to look for "easy speed" on that first 100. Yeah, it ain't always easy to achieve! Anyway, unless you're a great kicker and your legs never die, you might want to think about not kicking too hard on the first 100 then consciously bringing the kick on in the third 50 until the finish.

With a 55 second 100, I think you should be able to split 59, 1:02 for a 2:01 or 2:02.

bbpolhill
January 31st, 2008, 01:57 PM
Totally agree. You need to look for "easy speed" on that first 100. Yeah, it ain't always easy to achieve! Anyway, unless you're a great kicker and your legs never die, you might want to think about not kicking too hard on the first 100 then consciously bringing the kick on in the third 50 until the finish.

With a 55 second 100, I think you should be able to split 59, 1:02 for a 2:01 or 2:02.

I also agree.

While I do not have enough personal experience, I can share:

My daughter recently dropped from a 1:58 to a 1:54 (prelims to finals) by heeding the advice of her coach which was "do not give away your legs in the first half of the race" (a philosophy that she did not apply in prelims). She started kicking in earnest on the 6th lap and her splits were:

26.96/29.52/29.32/28.87 1:54.67

Her splits in prelims (when she overkicked in the first half):

26.63/29.60/31.14/30.69 1:58.06

The point is that you can achieve similar splits in the 1st half with moderate kicking while keeping a power boost in reserve for the 2nd half.

ande
January 31st, 2008, 03:11 PM
I disagree with Don't Breathe and would advise
Breathe plenty
but don't breathe on the last stroke into a turn and the first stroke out
Don't breathe from the flags in on the finish (the last 5 yards)



keep your head in the water (aka don't breathe), especially in your last 50.
take advantage of your speed from the dive on your first 50

ande
January 31st, 2008, 03:17 PM
congratulations

the effort that it took her to go 26.6 wasn't worth the 31 and 30 on the last 2 50's

by saving her legs she went
29.32 / 28.8

much better splitting
that is a breakthrough
way to go


I also agree.

While I do not have enough personal experience, I can share:

My daughter recently dropped from a 1:58 to a 1:54 (prelims to finals) by heeding the advice of her coach which was "do not give away your legs in the first half of the race" (a philosophy that she did not apply in prelims). She started kicking in earnest on the 6th lap and her splits were:

26.96/29.52/29.32/28.87 1:54.67

Her splits in prelims (when she overkicked in the first half):

26.63/29.60/31.14/30.69 1:58.06

The point is that you can achieve similar splits in the 1st half with moderate kicking while keeping a power boost in reserve for the 2nd half.

geochuck
January 31st, 2008, 03:32 PM
Take air when needed Thorpe is breathing quite often here. http://www.unofficial.com.au/videos/ian-thorpe/61101/0

thewookiee
January 31st, 2008, 04:11 PM
BREATH....BREATH....You must Breath throughout the race. That is a mistake I see too many young swimmers doing, not breathing enough the first 75-100 yards. Then they really fall apart over the last 100 because they havent been getting enough air the first half.

The last 50, you will have to breath. Your body will be hurting and not breathing will only make it worse.

Find a reasonable breathing pattern...every 2 or 3 strokes and stick with it. I agree with Ande...don't breath the last stroke in or first stroke out of the turn. Or the last five yards.


Good Luck!

geochuck
January 31st, 2008, 04:25 PM
Of course breathing for a 50 or 100 is diferrent then it is in a 200. But we can not dog it for the first 100 of a 200 and expect a great time. The first 150 must be quick the last 50 has to be done with guts.

Blackbeard's Peg
January 31st, 2008, 05:06 PM
ok I should have definitely clarified my breathing thing...
yes, you are all correct that you need to take air. but remember that breathing is inefficient... and should not occur super-frequently, as in every two strokes, especially during a sprint. Now I for one love to take in my air, but I think you'd also agree with me that 4 breaths per length in anything under 200 is probably a bit much.

thewookiee
January 31st, 2008, 08:01 PM
I will agree in a 50...regardless of yds/scm/lcm. In the 100...I disagree. I think each swimmer has to determine what works best for them. I personally find it better and faster for me to breath every 2 strokes.

I think too few swimmers pay attention to the actual timing of the breathing. If we strive to improve the timing of when we take our breaths, we keep our speed up better.

Iwannafly
January 31st, 2008, 10:59 PM
ok I should have definitely clarified my breathing thing...
yes, you are all correct that you need to take air. but remember that breathing is inefficient... and should not occur super-frequently, as in every two strokes, especially during a sprint. Now I for one love to take in my air, but I think you'd also agree with me that 4 breaths per length in anything under 200 is probably a bit much.
Doesn't Phelps and didn't Thorpe breathe every other stroke. Granted, they probably take less than half the number of strokes I do, but still!

jim thornton
January 31st, 2008, 11:44 PM
My two best 200s were essentially the same time, 155.+

One time I swam it 55 out; 1:00 back.

The other time I swam it 57 out: 58 back.

The second strategy actually gave me a better time by a few tenths, and it was much easier to do in terms of lactic-related pain.

On the other hand, it is easy to screw up and go too slow on the first 100 and not be able to make it up, even with a very fast second 100.

In terms of the quest for "easy speed," I have sometimes found that just telling myself to stay a little smooth and relax on the first half makes a big difference. You're probably going almost the same as you would be otherwise, but there's something about the word relax that just keeps the muscles loose.

If you can do a lot of little meets, you can experiment with the different strategies. If you can only do one big meet, your times strike me as slightly better sprinting than distance, which suggests faster dying, which suggests that maybe you'd have better luck not killing yourself by going too fast on the first 100.

Then again, my natural sprinter friends often try to go out fast and hold on. So what do I know?

Good luck! The worst that can happen is A) a bad time, B) pain. Both will be forgotten in minutes to months, depending on your nature.

Blackbeard's Peg
February 1st, 2008, 12:04 AM
if a 200 is a distance event to you, i can understand why breathing every two would make sense. to me, the 200 is a sprint. and to me, if you're sprinting, even over 200 y/m, you're supposed to keep your head in the water as much as you can. I'm not saying 1 breath per length for the full 200 - that is excessive. But 8 breaths per length is excessive too.

phelps and thorpe are the best in the world at what they do/did. how they do what they do is a bit unconventional. when we get to that level, we can do whatever we want too.

thewookiee
February 1st, 2008, 08:52 AM
The 200 is a long/controlled sprint. If a person has to take 8 breaths, then they need too. The number of breaths on takes, depends a lot on how many strokes they are taking to get down the pool.

A tall person, with a good catch, will of course take less strokes, which should in turn allow them to take less breaths.

A shorter person, even with a good catch, will still take more strokes, thus needing more air.

In truth, there is no right answer here. Bills will have to find out what works best for him. In any event lasting over 50 seconds(50's or 100's) it really is not a sprint anymore, so people probably do need to breath more.

thewookiee
February 1st, 2008, 08:58 AM
[QUOTE=Blackbeard's Peg;121065]you're supposed to keep your head in the water as much as you can. /QUOTE]


You may have hit on something right there that is important. Too many people actually lift their head to breath, instead of rolling it with the body rotation.

If people will ROLL their head and not lift their head, it will stay in the water and not cause a slow down in their speed. If swimmers do LIFT their head in freestyle, then that will cause a major slow down in speed.

geochuck
February 1st, 2008, 11:07 AM
I have watched 100 videos or more of Thorpe in 200s. You can barely see him take his breath. He breathes in the trough.

I have seen him not take a breath every stroke and power in at a finish without a breath for ten yards. I have seen him breathe nearly every full cycle.

I have seen him breath every 3strokes during some of his swims when he was watching someone close.

To me I think everyone should breathe when they need it. It varies by how you feel in the water.

BillS
February 1st, 2008, 01:01 PM
Thanks for all the advice and kind words. I plan to try and forget about past debacles, take it out faster than I have been, work the third 50 harder than I think is prudent, and hang on for the last 50. I'll post the result, whether good, bad, or downright ugly.

gull
February 1st, 2008, 01:29 PM
Bill, I am slower than you in the 50 and the 100. Here were my splits last year at age 48:


29.74 31.32 31.39 30.49 2:02.94


On the first 50 I just went for easy speed.

One of the sets that helped me the most was swimming several rounds of 4 x 50 on :40, descending each 50.

ande
February 1st, 2008, 04:01 PM
this is how not to do a 200 fr

In 1984 I did a 200 LCM fr
splitting it
55.0 1:03.8 for a 1:58.8

the first 100 needs to be easy speed
save your legs
breathe plenty

In 1981 I did a 200 LCM fly
splitting it
1:00 1:17 for a 2:17
that last 100 was UGGGLLLEEE and PAINFUL

the first 100 needs to be easy speed
save your legs
breathe plenty
be relaxed
stay smooth

remember
if you try to pick it up
you'll shut down

Chris Stevenson
February 1st, 2008, 05:25 PM
In 1981 I did a 200 LCM fly
splitting it
1:00 1:17 for a 2:17
that last 100 was UGGGLLLEEE and PAINFUL

My God, man, it is painful just to READ those splits. Nothing worse than that "oh ****" moment when you are just halfway through the 200 fly...

Have you swum it since? :)

pwolf66
February 1st, 2008, 05:29 PM
My God, man, it is painful just to READ those splits. Nothing worse than that "oh ****" moment when you are just halfway through the 200 fly...

Have you swum it since? :)

I used to love that moment. Now I can't even bring myself to try 100 Fly. Maybe in the fall.

matysekj
February 1st, 2008, 05:58 PM
My God, man, it is painful just to READ those splits. Nothing worse than that "oh ****" moment when you are just halfway through the 200 fly...

There's a certain swimmer in our area who shall remain nameless who is famous for his 200 fly at one national meet with the following splits:

:30
:40
:50
:60

Talk about painful... :cry:

That Guy
February 1st, 2008, 11:07 PM
There's a certain swimmer in our area who shall remain nameless who is famous for his 200 fly at one national meet with the following splits:

:30
:40
:50
:60

Talk about painful... :cry:

When I was a freshman in college learning to swim the 200 fly, I did a couple races that were sponsored by Steinway, but nothing like THAT... wow... a moment of silence for the Unknown Swimmer...

matysekj
February 1st, 2008, 11:15 PM
When I was a freshman in college learning to swim the 200 fly, I did a couple races that were sponsored by Steinway, but nothing like THAT... wow... a moment of silence for the Unknown Swimmer...

Well, rumor has it that this swimmer was out dancing until 2 AM, followed by a trip to a Chinese restaurant the night before. You'd still think that he may have decided to take it out just a tad easier after that.

Blackbeard's Peg
February 1st, 2008, 11:35 PM
re :30, :40, :50, :60 and subsequent "sponsored by Steinway" comment

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
i have not laughted that hard in a while
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

matysekj
February 1st, 2008, 11:45 PM
Okay, I just looked up his actual splits and the 4th one isn't quite as bad as advertised, but still pretty bad. This was a LC meet, in the fast (only) heat of an age group. He started out the first 50 right there with the leaders, but ended up 8th, a full 24 seconds behind the 7th place swimmer.

31.63
40.28
55.71
55.36

knelson
February 2nd, 2008, 12:37 AM
31.63
40.28
55.71
55.36

I'm sure that last 50 would have been even slower if that adrenaline hadn't kicked in when his brain realized he was drowning!

Chris Stevenson
February 2nd, 2008, 05:15 AM
re :30, :40, :50, :60 and subsequent "sponsored by Steinway" comment


A great phrase! Unfortunately, I think I'll have many occasions to use it.

I have had so many painful experiences in the 200 fly (though nothing really comparing to this) that I can't really do anything but wince with sympathy when I read these splits. If you take it out too hard, I really believe it is the only event where you there are moments where you SERIOUSLY DOUBT your ability to stay above water.

And yet I keep coming back for more...for reasons that probably don't need too much scrutiny... :frustrated:

BillS
February 2nd, 2008, 11:56 PM
Well the results are in, and I came up a little short. 2:04.00.

When I left the pool, the splits weren't yet posted, but I could see the clock and led the heat, so my splits were displayed briefly. I went out very strong, and thought I saw a 28.6 or so. I thought I saw a 59 low at the 100, which is about what I had intended to do. The third fifty hurt, and Goodsmith will be pleased to hear that I felt like puking about three strokes before the 150 turn. The last 50 was a little sloppy and ugly.

I drove an hour and a half through a snowstorm to get there, and there were a lot of no-shows. My heat had only 2 of us -- me in Lane 6 on the wall and another guy in Lane 1 by the other wall. We probably should have asked for a re-seed. He went a 6:24 or so, so I swam it alone. I would have liked to have someone to pace off of. I had a nice 500 later with an evenly matched opponent, and it really helps.

I was wiped out afterward, and felt like I had given it everything I had. I was about a half second off my best 50 free time in my next event, and a second plus off my 100 time at the end of the day, so I felt pretty good about PR'ing the 200 in a swim-through meet. My previous PR was rested and tapered at Nationals.

I think I can hold that first 50/100 time with more experience, and just need to work harder on practicing swimming that hard for 8 lengths.

Thank you again for all the comments, I had lots of them playing in my head on the drive and during the race.

BillS
February 6th, 2008, 12:55 PM
Split are up for my 200:

Splits
Leg Cumulative Subtractive
1 28.52 28.52
2 59.93 31.41
3 1:31.85 31.92
4 2:04.00 32.15


My previous best was a 2:04.24, split 30.31 31.50 31.44 30.99. I need a 2:03.17. So where should I look for the extra second?

For reference, at the same meet I went a 25.29 50 vs. a PR of 24.79, and a 56.93 100 (27.50 29.43) vs. a PR of 55.46. I was seriously gassed in the 100.

I have my own possibly misguided ideas about where to find the second, but I am interested in your comments and suggestions. I may have an opportunity to take one last shot at a meet in Washington at the end of March.

geochuck
February 6th, 2008, 01:02 PM
The best way to pick up seconds. A good dive and seven good turns. You can fool around setting down how fast you are going to swim each 50 or 25. You are fast enough but a quarter second on a turn will give you a drop in total time of 1.75 second in a short course pool.

BillS
February 6th, 2008, 03:27 PM
I think you are spot-on, George.

I think I had a decent start and a couple/few good turns. The last 2-3 turns I know were pretty weak. I jammed the 150 turn, just about smacked the lane rope on the breakout from the last one, and breathed first stroke on many. I need to practice doing good, streamlined, fast turns while very fatigued.

pwolf66
February 6th, 2008, 03:27 PM
I have my own possibly misguided ideas about where to find the second, but I am interested in your comments and suggestions. I may have an opportunity to take one last shot at a meet in Washington at the end of March.

How were your turns? Did you hit a tight streamline and where were you breaking out?

Paul

orca1946
February 6th, 2008, 03:36 PM
28 - 29 - 30 - 31

Steve Cox
February 11th, 2008, 10:34 AM
My daughter recently dropped from a 1:58 to a 1:54 (prelims to finals) by heeding the advice of her coach which was "do not give away your legs in the first half of the race" (a philosophy that she did not apply in prelims).

I wanted to say thanks for this post Brad. I swam the 200 free scy last Saturday and tried what you said. My previous best was 2:03.60. By saving my legs for the second half (and a lot of practice leading up to the meet) I was able to drop more than 3.5 seconds, going 2:00.02.

It was bittersweet. I was extremely happy at the big improvement, but really wanted to break two minutes. But as a friend of mine said, those hundredths of a second will keep me humble and make me work out that much harder.

Steve Cox
Long Island, NY

bbpolhill
February 11th, 2008, 10:49 AM
By saving my legs for the second half (and a lot of practice leading up to the meet) I was able to drop more than 3.5 seconds, going 2:00.02.

But as a friend of mine said, those hundredths of a second will keep me humble and make me work out that much harder.

Steve Cox
Long Island, NY

Awesome drop! My advice for next time is don't clip your fingernails. That has to be worth 3 hundredths of a second. Doesn't it? :laugh2:

Great job!

I like your friend's perspective. It makes alot of sense.

jim clemmons
February 12th, 2008, 02:15 PM
Had a good one last weekend - thought I'd share with y'all.

50 splits:
27.99 - 29.54 - 29.47 - 29.31

100 splits:
57.53 - 58.78

Total time: 1:56.31

My best time as a master by about a full second. I feel I need to work on first 100 speed and get out a little quicker although this didn't feel all that "comfortable". I'm a 53/54 hundred type. I really brought in the legs for the last 100.

scyfreestyler
February 12th, 2008, 02:31 PM
Had a good one last weekend - thought I'd share with y'all.

50 splits:
27.99 - 29.54 - 29.47 - 29.31

100 splits:
57.53 - 58.78

Total time: 1:56.31

My best time as a master by about a full second. I feel I need to work on first 100 speed and get out a little quicker although this didn't feel all that "comfortable". I'm a 53/54 hundred type. I really brought in the legs for the last 100.


That's awesome Jim!

Are you going to swim at the Monterey Clambake meet on the 23rd?

jim clemmons
February 12th, 2008, 02:40 PM
Are you going to swim at the Monterey Clambake meet on the 23rd?

Yes, I'm planning on being there. Still deciding which events to swim. You goin?

scyfreestyler
February 12th, 2008, 03:38 PM
Yes, I'm planning on being there. Still deciding which events to swim. You goin?

Absolutely. It'll be the 200, 100, and 50 freestyles for me.

God help me if I wind up in your 200 heat. :whiteflag:

Syd
March 13th, 2008, 10:40 AM
I have always considered myself a sprinter but recently I have been really enjoying doing 200's in practice. I want to have a crack at it this year in competition. Having read through this thread though, I think my splits are way off.

Today I did a set of 5 x 200 (SCM) at 3:30, descending. On the first I went 2:29, then 2:26, 2:23, 2:20 and the last I did in 2:17. I hardly ever take my splits but today I did for the last two. I split the second last 1:08/1:12 and the last 1:06/1:11.

After reading GoodSmith's comment that you shouldn't have more than a 3 second difference between your first and second hundred I realise I have a way to go.

There is a lot of good advice in this thread about race strategy and I can't wait to put some of it into action.

My question is: what is a good training set/strategy/programme to reduce the differences in split times?

ande
March 13th, 2008, 11:20 AM
excellent swim
great splitting
text book


Had a good one last weekend - thought I'd share with y'all.

50 splits:
27.99 - 29.54 - 29.47 - 29.31

100 splits:
57.53 - 58.78

Total time: 1:56.31

My best time as a master by about a full second. I feel I need to work on first 100 speed and get out a little quicker although this didn't feel all that "comfortable". I'm a 53/54 hundred type. I really brought in the legs for the last 100.

geochuck
March 13th, 2008, 11:46 AM
Syd you are swimming meters so do not set your goals on 3 seconds. You are doing about what you should be doing. Now you have to just get faster for the first 100 and carry it on to the second 100.

I have always considered myself a sprinter but recently I have been really enjoying doing 200's in practice. I want to have a crack at it this year in competition. Having read through this thread though, I think my splits are way off.

Today I did a set of 5 x 200 (SCM) at 3:30, descending. On the first I went 2:29, then 2:26, 2:23, 2:20 and the last I did in 2:17. I hardly ever take my splits but today I did for the last two. I split the second last 1:08/1:12 and the last 1:06/1:11.

After reading GoodSmith's comment that you shouldn't have more than a 3 second difference between your first and second hundred I realise I have a way to go.

There is a lot of good advice in this thread about race strategy and I can't wait to put some of it into action.

My question is: what is a good training set/strategy/programme to reduce the differences in split times?

bbpolhill
March 13th, 2008, 11:59 AM
My question is: what is a good training set/strategy/programme to reduce the differences in split times?


I am by no means an expert, but I have been swimming repeat 200's at practice by treating the first 100 as a pull (both with and without a pull buoy). The second 100, I kick fairly vigorously. My practice times have been coming down without increasing fatigue. I am going to continue this practice over the long haul. I hope to test it out within a month at a meet to see if I can lower my times.

I will also follow the same race strategy (only kicking in earnest for the last 75-100 yards).

blainesapprentice
March 13th, 2008, 01:50 PM
I am by no means an expert, but I have been swimming repeat 200's at practice by treating the first 100 as a pull (both with and without a pull buoy). The second 100, I kick fairly vigorously. My practice times have been coming down without increasing fatigue. I am going to continue this practice over the long haul. I hope to test it out within a month at a meet to see if I can lower my times.

I will also follow the same race strategy (only kicking in earnest for the last 75-100 yards).

That is exactly how I practice as well...pull the first half of the distance (25 in a 50, 50 in a 100, 100 in a 200, etc) then pick it up the second half. I have never been able to really execute that in a meet though because on one hand I don't like going out too fast with the pack, but I also don't like being behind the pack...I know I have the finishing power...but...i always screw it up anyways and go out too hard my first 100 or whatever.

For example in my 500 at metros, in the evening i went out 2 seconds slower in my first 100 then I had in prelims and my coach and parents were like :confused::censor:..thinking i was dead and out of the contention for a good place/time. Ended up going 4 seconds faster then my morning time.

jim clemmons
March 13th, 2008, 01:53 PM
excellent swim
great splitting
text book

Thank you Ande, I appreciate the comment.

knelson
March 13th, 2008, 02:26 PM
I'd have to say I don't agree with the "pulling the first half" argument. Remember, you don't want to intentionally go slow on the first half. Rather, you want to go fast on the second half. To swim a 200 fast you can't really hold back. You really need to take it out within a few seconds of your fastest 100 time and then have the conditioning to be able to hold on.

Try doing negative splitting and build swims in practice, but remember to concentrate on swimming fast on the back half rather than holding back a little on the front half.

LindsayNB
March 13th, 2008, 03:30 PM
To swim a 200 fast you can't really hold back. You really need to take it out within a few seconds of your fastest 100 time and then have the conditioning to be able to hold on.

Does anyone know of any systematic study of how first half speed effects maximum second half speed? And how much this varies between people and level of conditioning and age and total distance? I am thinking that speed relative to the WR definitely drops faster at longer distances as age progresses (which may or may not be largely due to lower level of training and conditioning) so is there an implication that the difference between first half speed and speed in a race of half the distance might differ with age or level of conditioning. I.e. a fifty year old who isn't training like a twenty year old might be better off with a greater difference between their 100m time and the first half of their 200?

In a 1500 you swim most of it at your anaerobic threshold, might there be similar energy system effects in the shorter races that dictate pacing by your level of fitness in each of those energy systems?

bbpolhill
March 13th, 2008, 03:54 PM
I'd have to say I don't agree with the "pulling the first half" argument. Remember, you don't want to intentionally go slow on the first half. Rather, you want to go fast on the second half. To swim a 200 fast you can't really hold back. You really need to take it out within a few seconds of your fastest 100 time and then have the conditioning to be able to hold on.

Try doing negative splitting and build swims in practice, but remember to concentrate on swimming fast on the back half rather than holding back a little on the front half.

I'm sure you are right about the "pulling the first half", but it personally helps me control my effort in practice. I tend to start fast and then die. Removing the kick from the first half leaves me with legs for the second half when my arms are starting to struggle. This is also the only way that I know to negative split. Do you have any suggestions for producing a negative split in practice (without holding back effort in the first half)?

knelson
March 13th, 2008, 04:34 PM
Do you have any suggestions for producing a negative split in practice (without holding back effort in the first half)?

It sounds like you have the opposite problem that I do. Usually I take out my shorter races too slow. For your case it does sound like a good suggestion to back off on the legs. For me, I need to make a conscious effort to go out fast. Different strokes for different folks!

geochuck
March 13th, 2008, 04:58 PM
To me the 200 is the dream event. To win a 200 you cannot go out slowly. Go out hard and finish hard.

bbpolhill
March 13th, 2008, 05:10 PM
It sounds like you have the opposite problem that I do. Usually I take out my shorter races too slow.... Different strokes for different folks!

Aha!...you think of the 200 as a short race while I think of it as an epic.:)

No wonder we have such different perspectives on which strategy to follow.

Syd
March 13th, 2008, 08:10 PM
I'd have to say I don't agree with the "pulling the first half" argument. Remember, you don't want to intentionally go slow on the first half. Rather, you want to go fast on the second half. To swim a 200 fast you can't really hold back. You really need to take it out within a few seconds of your fastest 100 time and then have the conditioning to be able to hold on.

Try doing negative splitting and build swims in practice, but remember to concentrate on swimming fast on the back half rather than holding back a little on the front half.


This certainly holds true for me, but I am willing to accept that it might not be the way for everyone to go. I have found, consistently, that if I go out hard in the first half of race, my overall time improves. It doesn't matter if it is the first 25 of a 50, the first 50 of a 100 or the first 100 of a 200. Even if my arms feel numb and I have no legs, my times are, invariably, better. Every time I think I should 'hold out' or go for 'easy speed' in the first half of the race my times disappoint.