The FAF AFAP Digest

Thanks for sharing the links Fort.

1. Go missy - getting beat by an olympic gold medalist in HS is healthy - let's yah know where you need to go.
2. Love paddles for many reasons, but haven't tried agility paddles yet, and the article didn't seem to provide a science based conclusion.
3. Where was all this AG coaching advice 40 years ago? Talk about sport's evolution and information explosion.

Originally Posted by Sojerz

Thanks for sharing the links Fort.

1. Go missy - getting beat by an olympic gold medalist in HS is healthy - let's yah know where you need to go.
2. Love paddles for many reasons, but haven't tried agility paddles yet, and the article didn't seem to provide a science based conclusion.
3. Where was all this AG coaching advice 40 years ago? Talk about sport's evolution and information explosion.

1. Honestly, I guess some parents want to protect their kids from everything. Blech.

2. What are all the reasons you love paddles? I could see myself becoming quite addicted to those too, but I am leery of over using them because of my shoulder. I love the agility paddles for working on the catch.

3. No kidding.

i like using them for: DPS, power feeling, hand entry and stroke technique, and to focus on pulling hard. But, there are limits, esp. if you have shoulder rotator issues or feelin pain. Think i read somewhere no more than 200-400 per practice with paddles, but i exceed that sometimes up to 600-1000. I also like to swim at least a few laps without them before getting out, as a way to return stroke memory to normal.
(The swimmer in that pic has the biggest paddles i've ever seen - rotator shredders, im thinkin)

Go, Missy, go and I totally agree with Chris DeSantis' article about the wonder/awe/joy/honor of being able to compete against super stars. I still count the time I got to race next to Rowdy (at his meet!) one of the highlights of my swimming career (and it helped that I swam out-of-my-mind-faster-than-I-ever-expected-to-and-still-got-my-ass-kicked). It's why I hope people like Jason Lezak (http://swimswam.com/jason-lezak-announces-retirement/) come to swim Masters.

My favorite quote -- something I might have emblazoned on my tombstone -- from the Swimming Science article, "... we’ve often reminded swimmers that out-of-water strength has very little correlation to in-water strength... "

Originally Posted by pwb

Go, Missy, go and I totally agree with Chris DeSantis' article about the wonder/awe/joy/honor of being able to compete against super stars. I still count the time I got to race next to Rowdy (at his meet!) one of the highlights of my swimming career (and it helped that I swam out-of-my-mind-faster-than-I-ever-expected-to-and-still-got-my-ass-kicked). It's why I hope people like Jason Lezak (http://swimswam.com/jason-lezak-announces-retirement/) come to swim Masters.

Now which age group is he in??? Lucky for me I wouldn't exactly compete in "his events".

Originally Posted by pwb

My favorite quote -- something I might have emblazoned on my tombstone -- from the Swimming Science article, "... we’ve often reminded swimmers that out-of-water strength has very little correlation to in-water strength... "

Ah, but it could be that the research just isn't there yet. Every elite swimmer has a serious strength training program. And it is only logical that, assuming great technique, that strength would help you kick/swim/pull faster. The question I have is how much strength do you need before there are diminishing returns?

Originally Posted by Sojerz

i like using them for: DPS, power feeling, hand entry and stroke technique, and to focus on pulling hard. But, there are limits, esp. if you have shoulder rotator issues or feelin pain. Think i read somewhere no more than 200-400 per practice with paddles, but i exceed that sometimes up to 600-1000. I also like to swim at least a few laps without them before getting out, as a way to return stroke memory to normal.
(The swimmer in that pic has the biggest paddles i've ever seen - rotator shredders, im thinkin)

Those paddles were odd looking though -- they were mostly mesh. I've thrown out my big paddles and just small ones or the agility paddles. I've been waiting for the agility paddles to come out in size small and large, as Finis has promised, but that hasn't happened yet. I would definitely buy the smaller ones.

200-400 yards definitely isn't much. Though, like you, I like them best for technique work, I also like to throw them on when using parachutes and bungees.

Originally Posted by pwb

Go, Missy, go and I totally agree with Chris DeSantis' article about the wonder/awe/joy/honor of being able to compete against super stars. I still count the time I got to race next to Rowdy (at his meet!) one of the highlights of my swimming career (and it helped that I swam out-of-my-mind-faster-than-I-ever-expected-to-and-still-got-my-ass-kicked). It's why I hope people like Jason Lezak (http://swimswam.com/jason-lezak-announces-retirement/) come to swim Masters.

He didn't sound particularly enthusiastic about retirement. It seems more a product of just getting old by elite standards.

Originally Posted by jaadams1

Now which age group is he in??? Lucky for me I wouldn't exactly compete in "his events".

Because he swims nothing over a 100? :-)

Maybe he would change focus in masters. I've given up the 200 fly and 400 IM after all. heehee

Originally Posted by The Fortress

I've given up the 200 fly and 400 IM after all. heehee

Never say never. Those particular events get easier and easier to AA in as you get older. Maybe you'll eventually be an 18 event AA swimmer in one season. That would be cool!

Missy gave up a lot to swim high school and is to be commended for attempting to have a "normal" life. She is an inspiration to all swimmers of all ages. That she is swimming high school is a powerful statement about the value of high school swimming. Those teams and swimmers that compete with her are fortunate.

I have found paddles useful for some strength development and more so for technical skill enhancement and they will transfer over to swimming without them. I have done both moderate and fast swimming with paddles at different phases of training. In that way my experience is that swimming FAST with paddles (sometimes also with short/mid length fins) has provided the most gains in skills/adaptation transference to swimming with no equipment. So far, I have only used paddles with Free and Back. My favorite paddles are medium size pink Speedo ones with no holes. The agility paddles appear very compelling, but I would like to try them before buying.

The definitive search to define the value of doing the dryland strength training has been an ongoing debate as far as I can remember. What I can say as someone who is 55+ is that for the aging individual strength clearly diminishes, and I believe the effort to sustain one's strength pays off in many multiple ways beyond swimming. In terms of sustaining a strong EVF technical skill in swimming the strokes, I believe both strength and flexibility play a strong role for swimmers of all ages but particularly for the maturing adult swimmers.

As I am beginning the second year of actual training as compared to lap swimming I am still experimenting with different kinds of training ideas. I think that the concept of diminishing returns for various of kinds of training is very real and needs to be considered as an individual basis due to so many kinds of circumstances the adult swimmer encounters. I used to have some great books on training periodization, which can be applied to all the different training and skill development processes. My method is not that formal, it's more like I do not want to get too tired or run down in that I can not enjoy swimming or being with my family.

Originally Posted by jaadams1

Never say never. Those particular events get easier and easier to AA in as you get older. Maybe you'll eventually be an 18 event AA swimmer in one season. That would be cool!

Maybe when I am 80 and partly senile.

Someday I'll sneak into a meet on the sly and maybe throw down a 200 back. Well, thrown down may be too ambitious. Maybe I'll cruise it. The last one in LCM left a very painful memory.

Originally Posted by fdtotten

The definitive search to define the value of doing the dryland strength training has been an ongoing debate as far as I can remember. What I can say as someone who is 55+ is that for the aging individual strength clearly diminishes, and I believe the effort to sustain one's strength pays off in many multiple ways beyond swimming. In terms of sustaining a strong EVF technical skill in swimming the strokes, I believe both strength and flexibility play a strong role for swimmers of all ages but particularly for the maturing adult swimmers.

As I am beginning the second year of actual training as compared to lap swimming I am still experimenting with different kinds of training ideas. I think that the concept of diminishing returns for various of kinds of training is very real and needs to be considered as an individual basis due to so many kinds of circumstances the adult swimmer encounters. I used to have some great books on training periodization, which can be applied to all the different training and skill development processes. My method is not that formal, it's more like I do not want to get too tired or run down in that I can not enjoy swimming or being with my family.

Definitely agree with that! Lack of strength is a major problem for people over 50. I can't imagine lapsing into being weak and inflexible. I will fight it all the way!

Which kinds of training do you think have diminishing returns? The reverse could be true as well -- some types of training have cumulative benefits over time. I try to have macro and mini training cycles, but I don't periodize speed anymore. I don't think there is any prevailing wisdom on how best masters should train. The only thing I've really gleaned is that we need more rest/recovery than we think.

Here are some more of my thoughts... Diminishing returns from training effort and activities can be a simple as over training in the sense of too much, too hard, too long, etc., without rest, recovery, to build up layered cumulative adaptation as you mentioned with macro and mini cycles. But perhaps more subtle and easy to overlook would be increasing stacks or resistance in strength training beyond the context of functional necessity. While strength can provide support and stamina for sustaining functional technique at race pace, only actual training at race pace will condition, that is, adapt one's physical metabolic system for that kind of effort. Another area of diminishing return will result from swimming technique flaws, so that the net gain effect is only as good as the balance of functional vs non functional stroke technique.

I agree about basic speed as a basic daily training element and not a cycle or seasonal training activity. After all, speed is the most fundamental aspect of swim races. One area of training that certainly can be cumulative over time is the mental adaptation to the effort it takes to train sustaining a higher level of lactate, otherwise known as "mental toughness". The most significant variable in cumulative training adaptation is the swimmer's/athlete's work ethic. However, the rest/recovery is a huge factor for the maturing swimmer athlete. For myself, I have recently found that quality effort and the rest activities are more effective than quantitative low rest interval aerobic development, such as age group and senior development type swimming. I can swim hard and fast, but I need rest and more time for my heart rate to come than I did ten years or more previously. There is no doubt to that.

Thanks for those thoughts. It seems like a fine balancing act between diminishing returns and cumulative benefits. While I agree that strength can be overdone (no need to bench your weight or squat 400 lbs), I still think strength beyond just functional strength could benefit swimming. And I likewise think there is a cumulative effect to weight training. That's why you see, for example, men in their 30s that are stronger than they were in college. Still, I'm not surprised to see Lochte say he's giving up his "strongman" lifting routine.

I could definitely use more mental adaptation to sustaining lactate tolerance. It's the hardest kind of training for me to do solo.

Thanks Frank and Leslie.

But perhaps more subtle and easy to overlook would be increasing stacks or resistance in strength training beyond the context of functional necessity. While strength can provide support and stamina for sustaining functional technique at race pace, only actual training at race pace will condition, that is, adapt one's physical metabolic system for that kind of effort.

The most significant variable in cumulative training adaptation is the swimmer's/athlete's work ethic. However, the rest/recovery is a huge factor for the maturing swimmer athlete. For myself, I have recently found that quality effort and the rest activities are more effective than quantitative low rest interval aerobic development, such as age group and senior development type swimming. I can swim hard and fast, but I need rest and more time for my heart rate to come than I did ten years or more previously. There is no doubt to that.

And I likewise think there is a cumulative effect to weight training. That's why you see, for example, men in their 30s that are stronger than they were in college. Still, I'm not surprised to see Lochte say he's giving up his "strongman" lifting routine.

I could definitely use more mental adaptation to sustaining lactate tolerance. It's the hardest kind of training for me to do solo.

Although one can build strength in the water, drylands seem a more efficient way to achieve the level of strength to mainatin functional necessity. I've read about the issue of training periodicity, but as an adult, even though my kids are grown, it is really hard to get anything resembling a cyclical plan together and stick to it - there is still a lot of life interference. Dryland strength training has been the hardest for me to maintain, despite believing in it's efficiency. As Leslie explained, i think swimming solo makes the mental toughness adaptation "tougher". I marvel at the tenancity of the swimmers on the usms blog; talk about mental toughness.

Swimming solo can make you mentally tough. However, I find it hard to man up and do lactate tolerance sets solo, so I am lacking there. I'm also not 100% convinced of their efficacy for me either.

"lactate tolerance sets" = sets swimming sprint reps 50-100 above threshold (fast) with enough rest that heart rate drops back below threshold ?

Heading off to group "speed" work practice at 8 tonight after trying to sleep off a cold all week - so feeling a little mentally tough. hope i can breathe.

I am not conversant in "threshold."

Here is the definition of lactate tolerance and lactate production from Maglischio. I avoid LT usually, but can summon up the mental energy to do a short LP set.

1. SP1 = Lactate tolerance -- works anaerobic endurance, work to rest from 2:1 to 1:1. (more applicable for 100+ distance races)

-- Reps are done at near-race speed at a sub-race distance (e.g., for a 200 race do a set 50s at your 2nd, 3rd, 4th 50 race pace.)
-- These can also be done as sets of 25s or 100s for a 200 race or brown swims.
-- This speed training teaches your body to buffer lactic acid and endure it mentally and physically. The sets help train your body how to take a longer race out with "easy speed."

2. SP2 = Lactate production -- works anaerobic power, work to rest ratio from 1:2 to 1:4 or more (more for 50 and 100 sprint races.)

-- Reps are done at near-race speed at a sub-race distance (e.g. for a 100 race do a set 50s at your 2nd 50 race pace) with much more rest between reps.
-- These sets can be also be done as 25s for a 50 or 100 race and up to 100s for 200 races.
-- These sets are designed to work your anaerobic stroking power.