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More Sprints, Thursday, Oct. 8

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SCY @ GMU w/Speedo:

Got there a bit late -- parking is a bear at GMU during the weekday!

Warm up:

600 swim-kick

Shooter Set:

10 x 50 @ 1:15, done as
25 UW shooter on back (no fins) + 25 easy DAB

50 EZ

Speed Work:

8 x 50 on 2:00, done as:
25 AFAP free w/fins + 25 EZ DAB
(went high 10s, low 11s)
50 EZ after #4

250 EZ

Pete left to go back to work, and I carried on doing some more speed work since I had an easy recovery workout yesterday.

3 x (100 + 50 EZ)
100 = 25 AFAP doggy paddle drill (forearm burn!) + 25 EZ DAB + 15 fast pullouts at wall + 15 m UW power kick on back + 35 EZ

150 EZ

1 x 50 SDK on back w/fins (went 23, cramped)

150 EZ

10 x vertical dolphin kicking @ 1:00, done as:

20 seconds w/hands at shoulders + 10 seconds in streamline + squat jump off bottom of pool (which was 10 ft. deep) + 20 seconds treading water. Tried to concentrate on kicking efficiently both ways.

200 EZ

Total: 2850 + VK-ing

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Commentary:

Pete and I agreed that doing the 25s @ 2:00 was probably not quite enough rest to truly go AFAP. He noted, and I agreed, that some of the 25s felt like the second 25 of a 50. Interestingly, our fastest 50 of the set of 8 was #5, after we had done a 50 EZ.

Planning on hot yoga and a gym session tomorrow.

GMU is closed over the weekend, so I won't have my Sunday team practice to go to. Instead, Mr. Fort and I are going to do a 1 mile fun run with our 9 year old at my son's high school on Sunday to support his cross country team. (Though he won't even be there -- he's in NY for a cross country meet.)

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  1. qbrain's Avatar
    Interestingly, our fastest 50 of the set of 8 was #5, after we had done a 50 EZ.
    You also recover faster moving than not. So the extra time plus the 50 ez both contributed to your fast #6 swims. Try 100s on 2:30 or 3:00 next time, 25AFAP, 75 ez and see if those are faster.

    My 100s from last week were 1:3 AFAP:ez. I am not saying this is some ideal ratio, but active recovery has been shown effective during a workout.

    Jazz mentioned that recovery workouts were useless, and I could not find anything to dispute that, but did find studies to support active recovery intraworkout.

    Just something else for you to go ADD with.

    Love the newest pic.
  2. pwolf66's Avatar
    25s on 2:00 should be more than enough to recover.
    That's about a 1:8 work:rest ratio. It would be the same as doing sprint 50s on 4:30 or sprint 100s on 9:00.

    I would suggest do the 50 Frees as 25 Sprint (to the feet)/25 EZ on 2:00.
  3. The Fortress's Avatar
    Q, I typically do AFAP 25s with a 50 recovery swim. We were a bit pressed for time since I was a bit late. But I like the 25 plus 75 idea as well.

    I'm not sure how much recovery workouts add ... I guess some of it could be deemed garbage. But I was working on SDKs, fly drills, streamlines, and breakouts, so I didn't consider it worthless. Plus, doing a recovery workout when your body isnt up to a high intensity workout beats not working out and maintains "feel."

    Runners do recovery runs all the time. I wonder if there is any research there?
    Updated October 8th, 2009 at 07:37 PM by The Fortress
  4. The Fortress's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by pwolf66
    25s on 2:00 should be more than enough to recover.
    That's about a 1:8 work:rest ratio. It would be the same as doing sprint 50s on 4:30 or sprint 100s on 9:00.

    I would suggest do the 50 Frees as 25 Sprint (to the feet)/25 EZ on 2:00.
    Maybe so, but I didn't feel fully recovered. I don't clear lactate quickly.
  5. qbrain's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress
    I typically do AFAP 25s with a 50 recovery swim. We were a bit pressed for time since I was a bit late. But I like the 25 plus 75 idea as well.

    I'm not sure how much recovery workouts add ... I guess some of it could be deemed garbage. But I was working on SDKs, fly drills, streamlines, and breakouts, so I didn't consider it worthless. Plus, doing a recovery workout when your body isnt up to a high intensity workout beats not working out. Runners do recovery runs all the time. I wonder if there is any research there?
    I like the 75s, but the clock is only readable from one end at my solo pool.

    I am pro recovery workouts. If I had a meet in the morning, I try to get an easy, slow swim in at Lifetime. Don't know if it helps me recover faster, but I feel better. If the previous day was just really intense I like to focus on drill and dps type stuff.

    I think the pro/con recovery workout focused on if you needed a recovery workout, or if you recovered just as fast sitting on the couch.

    All of your workouts, you seem to have a goal (very common among you fast people). That is new for me, and I think the recovery discussion occurred back when I thought of recovery as limited to just swimming slow.
  6. Speedo's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by pwolf66
    25s on 2:00 should be more than enough to recover.
    That's about a 1:8 work:rest ratio. It would be the same as doing sprint 50s on 4:30 or sprint 100s on 9:00.

    I would suggest do the 50 Frees as 25 Sprint (to the feet)/25 EZ on 2:00.
    I think it was enough to recover and swim AFAP based on my times and how they compare to other instances where I did the set. But it was certainly more painful. So is this where you want to be? Painful AND AFAP? Maybe so.
  7. The Fortress's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by qbrain
    I think the pro/con recovery workout focused on if you needed a recovery workout, or if you recovered just as fast sitting on the couch.

    All of your workouts, you seem to have a goal (very common among you fast people).
    Sitting on the couch may be just as effective. But, as you note, you have less time to work on drilling or technical details. And, I agree with you, my body seems to feel better after a recovery workout and sitting on the couch holds little appeal.

    Having goals is good. Otherwise, you're just a glorified lap swimmer. Seems like there's always something that can be worked on/improved. Now, after a big target meet, I can noodle about without any goals.
  8. The Fortress's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo
    I think it was enough to recover and swim AFAP based on my times and how they compare to other instances where I did the set. But it was certainly more painful. So is this where you want to be? Painful AND AFAP? Maybe so.
    Hmm ... I didn't think it was more painful. I just felt slower and less powerful the last few. I would think that is less desirable if pure high intensity sprints are your goal. Now, if there are other goals, then maybe 2:00 works.
  9. Speedo's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress
    Hmm ... I didn't think it was more painful. I just felt slower and less powerful the last few. I would think that is less desirable if pure high intensity sprints are your goal. Now, if there are other goals, then maybe 2:00 works.
    Maybe painful is the wrong word. I do remember getting a little sloppy on the last few too. I may be transferring pain into my memory of it since when I usually get sloppy it's because it's a mid-D set I'm having trouble with and it f'ing hurts. So maybe times are not as important if holding good form, at speed, is the goal?
  10. qbrain's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo
    I think it was enough to recover and swim AFAP based on my times and how they compare to other instances where I did the set. But it was certainly more painful. So is this where you want to be? Painful AND AFAP? Maybe so.
    Paul likes pain, gives him something to complain about.
  11. qbrain's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress
    Now, after a big target meet, I can noodle about without any goals.
    If I remember correctly, after the big meets you aren't noodling about in a pool all that much.
  12. The Fortress's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo
    Maybe painful is the wrong word. I do remember getting a little sloppy on the last few too. I may be transferring pain into my memory of it since when I usually get sloppy it's because it's a mid-D set I'm having trouble with and it f'ing hurts. So maybe times are not as important if holding good form, at speed, is the goal?
    I think they're both important. You need to hold top speed with great form and fast times. At least that's the goal in sprinting.

    Whenever I do a mid-D set with GMU, and I'm treating it as such and not improvising, it really does f'ing hurt. But, every once in awhile, I don't mind these sets. I just couldn't take a constant diet of them!
    Updated October 8th, 2009 at 08:33 PM by The Fortress
  13. The Fortress's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by qbrain
    Paul likes pain, gives him something to complain about.
    lmao! So true!

    He's also more focused on "meterage" and odd distance events than one would expect for a sprinter with supposedly 4 core events ...
  14. The Fortress's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by qbrain
    If I remember correctly, after the big meets you aren't noodling about in a pool all that much.
    I noodled about awhile after Zones last April, I recall. I seem to remember being in pain and super exhausted ... I think I even sat on the couch some. But after a week of easy workouts, I tend to revert to my usual OCD nature.
  15. qbrain's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress
    I noodled about awhile after Zones last April, I recall. I seem to remember being in pain and super exhausted ... I think I even sat on the couch some. But after a week of easy workouts, I tend to revert to my usual OCD nature.
    I think I remember you noodling out of the pool right after Zones. Literally DAYS without swimming.
  16. Bobinator's Avatar
    I found my snorkel. It was too late to get it ready for practice tonight. I'm trying it Saturday.
    good workout today Fort! Don't melt in Yoga tomorrow!
  17. The Fortress's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobinator
    I found my snorkel. It was too late to get it ready for practice tonight. I'm trying it Saturday.
    good workout today Fort! Don't melt in Yoga tomorrow!
    Be patient with the snorkel, Bob. You may even need a nose clip. It takes awhile to get used to the flip turns. But persevere and you will! I think it could really help your neck issues. The USA kids use them all the time on long free sets.
  18. The Fortress's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by qbrain
    I think I remember you noodling out of the pool right after Zones. Literally DAYS without swimming.
    I had to check. I did noodle with SwimStud the day after Zones at Oak Marr Rec. Then I took 2 days off (though I did lift weights one of those days.)
  19. aquageek's Avatar
    That vertical kicking is where it's at - painful. I like the pain. I'm still mad that some donut eater tried to debunk the no pain, no gain mantra that I live by.
  20. The Fortress's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by aquageek
    That vertical kicking is where it's at - painful. I like the pain. I'm still mad that some donut eater tried to debunk the no pain, no gain mantra that I live by.
    Next time, I think I'll work them harder. I was just concentrating on undulation on that VK set.

    Pain is still good. Just not continuous long drawn out quasi pain. And that "less is more" mantra is deceptive too ... Right in some respects; wrong in others.
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