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Thread: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

  1. #41
    Very Active Member geochuck's Avatar
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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    Keep it simple George Park
    Swimsuit Sale http://www.swimdownhill.com/index.html

  2. #42
    Very Active Member funkyfish's Avatar
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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by meldyck View Post
    Um, sorry folks, but that's just a lap-dancing training tool. Recruits must do a certain number of hours on that machine before flying solo.
    Ha ha, awesome!

    Getting back on topic, today I did the sdk 25yd underwater from a push in 16.5 sec. I think it's getting better.

  3. #43
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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    It is important to remember that you do not HAVE to do SDK on freestyle. I remember Mark Foster from UK (one of the fastets guys in the world for 50free). He did not use any SDK, at least not in the early 90's. Just a strong freestyle kick, up and swim. He sometimes did not even bother do go under the big wave during turns!? How he managed that I do not know.

    Many time you can see people desperately trying the SDK in competition and losing speed. I believe it will help you when you manage it. Until then maybe you should avoid it during competition.

    For the back, fly and IM you will of course have no option but to practice!!

  4. #44
    Very Active Member geochuck's Avatar
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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    If I mention my thoughts on kicking somone always dumps on me. Whether it be SDK or just a regular kick. Since I did not start this thread I occassionally glimpse at the kicking threads and hold my nose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loffe View Post
    It is important to remember that you do not HAVE to do SDK on freestyle. I remember Mark Foster from UK (one of the fastets guys in the world for 50free). He did not use any SDK, at least not in the early 90's. Just a strong freestyle kick, up and swim. He sometimes did not even bother do go under the big wave during turns!? How he managed that I do not know.

    Many time you can see people desperately trying the SDK in competition and losing speed. I believe it will help you when you manage it. Until then maybe you should avoid it during competition.

    For the back, fly and IM you will of course have no option but to practice!!
    Keep it simple George Park
    Swimsuit Sale http://www.swimdownhill.com/index.html

  5. #45
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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    Being new at the forum, I would be more than glad to hear your thoughts about kicking and SDK!

    We all have our own experience and unique bodies/possibilities.. so the important thing is to find what works for us! What works for my friend does not necessarily work for me! And the only way to do this is the get ideas from others..

  6. #46
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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    "find what works for us"
    Exactly
    I suggest swimmers get times from a dive for their 15 & 25 meter :
    1) streamline flutter kick,
    2) SDK,
    3) free,
    4) fly,
    5) back, and
    6) breast

    then train to improve their kicking ability and
    use the best one in the best way when they race


    Quote Originally Posted by Loffe View Post
    Being new at the forum, I would be more than glad to hear your thoughts about kicking and SDK!

    We all have our own experience and unique bodies/possibilities.. so the important thing is to find what works for us! What works for my friend does not necessarily work for me! And the only way to do this is the get ideas from others..

  7. #47
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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    Exactly. AND .. do the tests again. Hopefully things change over time. What was best for me yesterday may not be best today.

    But looking on todays stars there is no doubt that if you manage SDK very well, it can be effective. Personally I still have a problem doing the switch from SDK to flutter, so sometimes I just skip the SDK (often last turn). But I'll keep practicing...

  8. #48
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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    I've decided to modify the testing and training recommendations for


    Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    Here's the new improved:
    SDK Improvement Program for those who scream
    Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    Testing
    wear a fast suit

    Test all out SDK's & Swims:
    put plenty of rest between each effort
    like a very easy swim down, 75, 125, or even 175
    easy easy easy
    Test kicking and swimming on different days

    1) Test Your SDK Speed:
    15's & 25's;
    if you can SDK a 25 in less than 15 also test a 50 SDK

    2) Test Your Swimming using SDK breakouts
    15's, 25's & 50's of your best stroke where you use SDK breakouts

    on the 15's & 25's experiment with
    a) kick counts: to find your sweet spot and
    b) body positions: belly, back or side to figure out what works best for you

    Report Your Results here


    Training

    1) do 12 x 25 kick

    round 1) 4 x 25
    1 easy recovery concentrating on distance per kick
    1 15 meters easy speed, concentrating on perfect form
    1 easy recovery concentrating on distance per kick
    1 15 meters fast as possible for time

    round 2) 4 x 25
    1 easy recovery concentrating on distance per kick
    1 15 meters easy speed, concentrating on perfect form
    1 easy recovery concentrating on distance per kick
    1 25 fast as possible for time

    round 3) 4 x 25
    1 easy recovery concentrating on distance per kick
    1 15 meters easy speed, concentrating on perfect form
    1 easy recovery concentrating on distance per kick
    (take a little extra rest)
    1 25 meters fast as possible for time right into the turn and kick another 15 meters as fast as possible

    2) do 10 x 25 swim
    1 easy recovery
    1 descend 1 - 5
    to as fast as possible for time on #5


    3) stretch your feet / ankles to improve your toe point


    4) do leg weight lifting exercises to improve your leg strength power and speed
    leg press
    leg extensions
    leg curls


    5) watch underwater SDK videos, become familiar with superior technique of the best in the world

    SDK Technique tips
    a) perfect form,
    b) skinny streamline
    c) apply force on your upsweep and your downsweep
    d) amplitude: crocker does small fast kicks, phelps has more amplitude
    what works best for you
    e) experiment with SDK kick counts and fast break outs
    figure out how to get to 15 meters the fastest


    6) Training Cycle

    5 weeks
    train 2 times a week then
    test on Friday or Saturday

    week 6
    rest skip the training and take it easy
    don't do the speed kicking training then
    test at the end of the week and of course
    Report your results, here

  9. #49
    Very Active Member jaegermeister's Avatar
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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    Ande-

    THanks for the suggestions and the encouragement.

    Did some shooters without fins today to get a benchmark. I haven't been doing much focused on SDK up till now other than some core work on a BOSU.

    I did 6X25 shooters without fins, from a push, with a standard practice suit. The first several were in the :16- :17 range. Then I found our coach to have him time my last one and I went a 15.8.

    Now the work begins in earnest. I'll try to get some times for 15 yards as well.

  10. #50
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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    My formula for a better SDK was -

    1. Do lots of core work on land
    2. Get a good flutter and dolphin kick (with and without a board) FIRST - do kick sets
    3. Surround yourself with swimmers who have great SDK ALL THE TIME (you will feel silly doing puny or no SDK) - watch and learn

  11. #51
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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    Congratulations tom,

    15.8 is a great place to start!

    was that from a dive or from a push?
    were you on your side belly or back?

    Now do the training and let's see how much faster your SDK can get

    also get and report your 15 meter times

    1) SDK from a dive on your belly

    2) SDK from a backstroke start on your back and

    3) backstroke breakout where you find your
    SDK sweet spot / ideal kick counts for the 50 bk & 100 bk
    off the start and also off turns

    plus do a 25 Streamlined Flutter Kick for time
    to see how your SFK compares to your SDK

    Good luck and way to go

    Ande


    Quote Originally Posted by jaegermeister View Post
    Ande-

    THanks for the suggestions and the encouragement.

    Did some shooters without fins today to get a benchmark. I haven't been doing much focused on SDK up till now other than some core work on a BOSU.

    I did 6X25 shooters without fins, from a push, with a standard practice suit. The first several were in the :16- :17 range. Then I found our coach to have him time my last one and I went a 15.8.

    Now the work begins in earnest. I'll try to get some times for 15 yards as well.
    Last edited by ande; May 14th, 2008 at 05:02 PM.

  12. #52
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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    Went 17.89 for 25m from a push off the wall on Saturday. My previous best was 18.89.

    I think this is due, in part, to my 3x a week dryland programme that I have been doing of late. I do lift some weights and also spend quite of a bit of time on exercises to develop core strength. Here is my favourite core set.

    Another contributing factor is Ande's advice to concentrate as much on the upsweep as on the downsweep. As obvious as that piece of advice may sound it has been revolutionary for me. The whole feel of my SDK has changed from what seemed to be a powerless downward thrashing of the legs to a more complete up-and-down sweep. It has also resulted in my using more of my whole body rather than just my legs.

  13. #53
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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    awesome
    congratulations

    ande

    Quote Originally Posted by Syd View Post
    Went 17.89 for 25m from a push off the wall on Saturday. My previous best was 18.89.

    I think this is due, in part, to my 3x a week dryland programme that I have been doing of late. I do lift some weights and also spend quite of a bit of time on exercises to develop core strength. Here is my favourite core set.

    Another contributing factor is Ande's advice to concentrate as much on the upsweep as on the downsweep. As obvious as that piece of advice may sound it has been revolutionary for me. The whole feel of my SDK has changed from what seemed to be a powerless downward thrashing of the legs to a more complete up-and-down sweep. It has also resulted in my using more of my whole body rather than just my legs.

  14. #54
    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by Syd View Post
    Went 17.89 for 25m from a push off the wall on Saturday. My previous best was 18.89.

    Another contributing factor is Ande's advice to concentrate as much on the upsweep as on the downsweep. As obvious as that piece of advice may sound it has been revolutionary for me. The whole feel of my SDK has changed from what seemed to be a powerless downward thrashing of the legs to a more complete up-and-down sweep. It has also resulted in my using more of my whole body rather than just my legs.
    Good job Syd! I think I need to focus on the upsweep part as well.

    I'm wondering about SDKs though ... Has anyone noticed masters using them all that much? Or anyone doing more than just a couple off a turn? I don't think I saw more than 5% of swimmers SDK-ing much at Nats recently. If they were, it was very token. Are they too hard to learn? Are they not as efficient for masters? People dislike them?

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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    SDK's take training for
    1) speed and
    2) speed endurance and breath control

    people are either good at SDK or not

    they worked quite well for michael ross http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/...c=258&id=14193

    they helped my 100 IM & 50 bk
    http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/...c=258&id=14300

    looks like it helped
    1 William M Liscinsky 26 int he 100 IM 22.26 48.82 (26.56)
    http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/...c=258&id=14318

    Chris Stevenson too!


    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    Good job Syd! I think I need to focus on the upsweep part as well.

    I'm wondering about SDKs though ... Has anyone noticed masters using them all that much? Or anyone doing more than just a couple off a turn? I don't think I saw more than 5% of swimmers SDK-ing much at Nats recently. If they were, it was very token.
    Are they too hard to learn?
    Are they not as efficient for masters?
    People dislike them?
    Last edited by ande; May 19th, 2008 at 02:46 PM.

  16. #56
    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    That was the 5% I was talking about. Add Yana Park. What about the other 95%?

  17. #57
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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    I've recently added dolphin kick with a board to my workouts...
    No I don't think of is at helping my "stroke" per se (before somone chips in with it's not a swimming position), but I can really feel it in the abs.

    You might consider cross training some of these type of dolphin kicks into the SDK workout to build some muscle and strength. Focus on the abs to do the reps rather than pushing on the board...go slow and deep with the motions.

    The nice thing is you get plenty of air while doing them. Then you can go do SDK as you desire with or without fins and see if you're getting more power.



    .

  18. #58
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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    What about the other 95%?

    A. 25%
    has a good SDK but doesn't train it or use it as well as they could

    B. 50%
    could have a good SDK if they trained to improve it and practiced using it in races

    C. 20%
    have a terrible SDK and it's terminal, hopeless, pointless, don't bother, SDK is slower for you and will always be no matter how much you train to improve it because these reasons:
    Some:
    1. can't do correct SDK technique, or
    2. can't get in correct streamline position to SDK
    3. doesn't have the right body shape to SDK, or
    4. doesn't have proper foot and ankle flexibility to SDK or
    5. they believe they can SDK and nothing will change their mind

    where do you fall?
    If you don't know,
    assume you have untapped SDK potential
    work hard to improve it.

    If your all out 25 SDK time is
    faster than to within a second or 2 of your all out
    25 time bk, fl or fr times

    you should develop and use your SDK
    figure out where your cross over points are
    where you should break out in bk, fr, & fl
    figure out your kick counts
    how many kicks you should take before breaking out
    off starts and turns

    hope this helps?

    Ande

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    That was the 5% I was talking about. Add Yana Park. What about the other 95%?

  19. #59
    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    SDK's take training for
    1) speed and
    2) speed endurance and breath control

    people are either good at SDK or not

    they worked quite well for michael ross http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/...c=258&id=14193

    they helped my 100 IM & 50 bk
    http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/...c=258&id=14300

    looks like it helped
    1 William M Liscinsky 26 int he 100 IM 22.26 48.82 (26.56)
    http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/...c=258&id=14318

    Chris Stevenson too!
    Playing the devil's advocate...

    Josh Davis didn't use SDKs at all in his 200 back (fastest masters time ever)

    http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/...c=258&id=14194

    One of the NOVA age group coaches, Diane Cayce, thinks my 200 back would be faster if I spent less time underwater. She acknowledges that SDKs are the faster method of propulsion but thinks the oxygen demand is too high by the end of the race.

    I don't agree with her, but it is an opinion worth mentioning. In any event, to use it at the end of longer races, it is something you have to train in practice: the "speed endurance and breath control" that Ande mentions, as well as "easy speed" with SDKs (for taking out the race).

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    Re: Help! My SDK is Horrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    Good job Syd! I think I need to focus on the upsweep part as well.

    I'm wondering about SDKs though ... Has anyone noticed masters using them all that much? Or anyone doing more than just a couple off a turn? I don't think I saw more than 5% of swimmers SDK-ing much at Nats recently. If they were, it was very token. Are they too hard to learn? Are they not as efficient for masters? People dislike them?
    Thanks Fortress. Well, I haven't integrated it as a strategy, yet. It's not quick enough to give me any advantage. However, my SDK time's have been improving steadily. When I started with Ande's kicking regime, I think, I went a 23 something for 25m. So that is a 6 second improvement which is heartening in itself. I am hoping I am not part of Ande's 'terminal 20%"! Maybe, soon I will be able to incorporate it into a race. Don't know if I will use it for anything but the start, though. As Chris points out the oxygen demand is so high that even going at an easy pace in practice leaves me gasping for breath. No doubt I could train myself to use it at every turn but, perhaps, the time spent on doing that could be more fruitfully spent elsewhere. Don't know. Will have to see.

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