Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 29

Thread: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors?

  1. #1
    Very Active Member jim thornton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    A, A
    Posts
    2,138
    Blog Entries
    261

    Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors?

    I posted this idea on another thread, where it more or less disappeared into the void. If it thusly disappears again, I will acknowledge that it deserves to disappear.

    But before such acknowledgement, one more shot. To wit:

    I think it would be kind of fun to come up with some kind of "all around freestyle" ranking. Usually you have your drop dead sprinters on one end, and your never say die distance people on the other end. But what about those of us who are sort of evenly mediocre at all distances?

    Since freestyle has the most number of "in the pool" events, maybe we could come up with a freestyle decathalon event where you can score points (say, the inverse of the Top 25 in each event--where no. 1 gets 25 points, and no. 25 gets 1 point), add all these up, and get the cumulative score.

    50
    100
    200
    500
    1000
    1650
    half hour swim
    hour swim
    5k
    10k


    I think all of the above, with the possible exception of the half hour swim, are now official USMS events. You could argue that the 50, 100, and 200 are sprint-ish events; the 500, 1000, and 1650 (and possibly the half hour swim) are middle-ish or shortish distance events; and the rest are actual distance events.

    In any event, I throw this topic out for the rumination of my fellow freestylers in the hopes that someone could come up with a fair rating system. My inverse points concept is only one possibility. Another might be to figure out a person's average per 100 pace for each event, total these, then divide by 10--

    example--for the sake of brevity, I will just do this for 5 free events:

    24 for 50 = :48
    52 for 100 = :52
    1:58 for 200 = :59
    5:25 for 500 = 1:05
    11:40 for 1000 = 1:10

    total time: 4:54
    divide, int his case by 5, and...
    average 100: 59.2

    Obviously, if we include the 1650, half hour swim, and hour swim, the average 100 pace would continue to climb upwards.

    Anyhow, I am not sure how to weight things fairly, but the aim--it seems to me--would be to have the world's best sprinter, and the world's best distance swimmer--end up scoring roughly the same.

    And I am hoping that the ingenuity of my fellow math-inclined (and possibly somewhat bored, with plenty of time on their hands) masters swimmers might be able to combine to create a perfect Freestyle Decathlon event as a possible motivation for all around freestylers to branch out their efforts for compleat bragging rights.

    Note: you would have to swim each event in a sanctioned USMS meet and/or postal event to qualify. This would surely encourage more people to do some of the longer swims, and maybe some of the distance people to sign up for actual meets and do short things like 50s! A win-win for attendance.

    We could call this--for wont of a better name--the Thornton Index.

    Of course, we could call it something else, too, like maybe the Thornton Freestyle Decathlon, or even just "The Jim."

    Or the Freestyle Decathlon.

  2. #2
    Very Active Member rtodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    1,311

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    You caught my interest until I got to the one hour, 5K and 10K. That would blow my average....I'm out.

    It's a cool idea though.

  3. #3
    Very Active Member smontanaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Evanston, IL
    Posts
    1,816
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    Those longer events would tend to blow most peoples' averages. I can probably do about 1:10 for 100yds in a properly motivated setting. I swam the 6k postal last year at a 1:34/100 pace. I suspect you might have to weight the shorter distances a bit more than the longer distances.

    Skip

  4. #4
    Participating Member ImFree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Lutz, FL
    Posts
    23
    Blog Entries
    67

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    Count me in!... Er, well, I could do without the 10K, but I'd rather do that than a 50 breast.

    I've thought something along these lines would be interesting. I'm a decent freestyler at all distances (top 10s in all distances), and have never had a top ten in any thing but free. Training for the 50 to the 1000, and occasional mile or OW is interesting compared to folks who can actually swim the strokes at the 50 - 200 distances. Its the burden I bear, I guess.
    Mark.

  5. #5
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,908
    Blog Entries
    563

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    Quote Originally Posted by smontanaro View Post
    Those longer events would tend to blow most peoples' averages.
    Yeah, but that's sort of the idea, isn't it? The people who are good at shorter distances will have an advantage in the short stuff, the distance swimmers will have an advantage in the long stuff. Average it out and you get the best all-around freestyler.

    The biggest problem I see is getting enough people to do all the events. You could allow people to have missed events, but then how would you handicap them? You obviously wouldn't just let people skip an event with no penalty because then they could just skip the longest event thereby decreasing their average.

    How about this? Have four categories of events. The sprints would be the 50 and 100 free. Middle distance would be 200 and 500 (or 400). Distance would be 1000 (800) and 1650 (1500). Long distance would be the hour swim, the 5K and the 10K. In each one of the four categories you could pick which event you wanted to use, but only one event in each category would count. For example, in the sprint catgeory if you swam a 24 second 50 free and a 50 second 100 free, you'd use the 50 because that equates to a 48 second pace per 100. However, if you never got around to swimming a 50 that year, you could still use the 50 second 100 as your swim in the sprint category. You could also choose to use whatever course (SCY, SCM and LCM) you want. Obviously short course yards would be ideal, but, again, if you didn't get around to swimming the one hour postal you could still used your 10K long course postal result.

  6. #6
    Tough like cottage cheese
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Montgomery Village, MD
    Posts
    2,596
    Blog Entries
    469

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    Interesting idea but as I would never go above 1650, I would be out.

    Paul

  7. #7
    Very Active Member blainesapprentice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Albany/Pine Bush, NY
    Posts
    566
    Blog Entries
    8

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    I'd consider doing it...

    I think that the inverse points scoring method might be a tad more leveling of the playing field than the averaging of paces...but not completely sure?
    Nothing to it but to do it

  8. #8
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,908
    Blog Entries
    563

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    Quote Originally Posted by blainesapprentice View Post
    I'd consider doing it...

    I think that the inverse points scoring method might be a tad more leveling of the playing field than the averaging of paces...but not completely sure?
    I think it should be based on time. If someone kicks butt in their 1650 and beats everyone else by 30 seconds they should be awarded for this. Just giving them one more point in the ordinal system wouldn't reflect that like the time would.

  9. #9
    CreamPuff
    Guest

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    Nice idea.
    I'd participate.
    I agree with Kirk's logic. However, I would guess that distance swimmers would rule this series.
    Where's the 25K? I guess that would totally cut down on participation.

  10. #10
    Very Active Member jim thornton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    A, A
    Posts
    2,138
    Blog Entries
    261

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    Maybe the answer would be to limit the number of events to the following:

    50
    100
    200
    500
    1000
    1650
    hour swim

    Call it the SCY Freestyle Septathalon. Even the most committed sprinter is used to doing 1-hour or longer swim practices, and if he or she really didn't want to swim for a continuous hour without breaks, they could just use their total yards for an hour practice (no cheating!)

    I suppose this might be hard to enforce, so if we had to, just to get things rolling, we could skip the hour swim and make it the SCY Sexathalon, which, now that I think of it, might actually attract more interest.

    Imagine being able to wear a T-shirt that proudly declares: #4 in the 2009 USMS SCY Freestyle Sexathalon!

    It would force people to go to at least two decent sized meets, since you usually can't swim the 1000 and the 1650 at the same meet.

    Too bad that USMS doesn't have the 25 yard event. Our regional Y meets actually allow us to race 25s of all strokes, which is kind of fun--almost impossible to get tired. If we could add the 25, then sprinters would be thrilled--and perhaps willing to add the hour swim!

    Does anyone out there know how the actual Decathalon is scored?

  11. #11
    Very Active Member smontanaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Evanston, IL
    Posts
    1,816
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    I passed this thread along to Marcia Cleveland. She asked me to pass along her reply:

    Jim,

    This is a fun idea. You actually forgot 2 swims: the 3000 & 6000 yard swim, which are part of the OWLD Postal Series. Have you thought about doing that series, which includes the OHP, 5K, 10K and the 3000 and 6000. If you complete all, you receive a patch, your name in the magazine, and bragging right forever.

    There are a few things to consider with this type of series:

    1. Ages. Is the M18-24 who goes :26 for the 50 a "better" swimmer than the W90-94 who goes :59 for the same distance (she'd be the star in the eyes of USMS). This series would be something to rank by age groups.

    2. The OWLDC has the aforementioned Postal Series (my brainchild in 2002 - long story some other time) which awards those who put all these distances together. Across USMS, some are easy to put together and some are nearly impossible. The amount of planning that goes into completing this series deserves it's own patch. Then there are the REAL Beautiful People of these events: the TIMERS...

    3. Ask the Fitness Chair, Marcia Anziano, "Marcia Anziano" <marfer@att.net>, her thoughts about this and tell her Marcia C. thought it was a fun idea. (In USMS Admin, there are 4 of us Marcia's: A. B. C. & M.) The Half Hour Swim is a Fitness event, and this may be it's last year (Marcia A. would know for sure.) Some of this is covered in the Check off Challenge.

    4. Not sure if we need to put a gold star and/or a list of rankings here. Instead, just completing all of these events at some point during a calendar year is an accomplishment and may garner something like the Postal Series Patch.

    It's a fun idea and has some potential. Thanks for generating an idea like this.

    Best Fishes,

    Marcia Cleveland

    Chair, USMS Open Water Long Distance
    E: MarciaC944@gmail.com

  12. #12
    Very Active Member jim thornton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    A, A
    Posts
    2,138
    Blog Entries
    261

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    Thanks Skip and Marcia.

    I suppose if we really wanted to make this complicated...we could take each person's final "average 100" yard time and subject it to the Finnish formula.

    This was the subject of a much discuss thread years back, and the magnificent Phil Arcuni created a very fun little web plug in that allows you to "age grade" swims.

    You can check this out at: http://n3times.com/swimtimes/

    Phil, or another computer whiz, could no doubt create a little plug in where you would enter a swimmer's 50-1 hour swims, do all the calculations, spit out the average 100 time, then subject it to the Finnish formula. That way, we could not only decree the All Around Freestyle Swimmer in each age group, but also an All Around Age-Adjusted (by Finnish scientists!) Freestyle Swimmers in the entire association!

    BTW, I am now 55, and I must thank Phil for giving me the ability to abuse my 20-something teammates endlessly ever since he created that plug in.

    It's nice to know that when I swim a 53.53 at my age, my friend Robert, 24, must do a 45.7 to equal it!

  13. #13
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,908
    Blog Entries
    563

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    Quote Originally Posted by jim thornton View Post
    I suppose this might be hard to enforce, so if we had to, just to get things rolling, we could skip the hour swim and make it the SCY Sexathalon, which, now that I think of it, might actually attract more interest.
    Technically it would be a hexathlon, but obviously that doesn't have quite the humor factor of a sexathlon

  14. #14
    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    4,138
    Blog Entries
    1217

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    Quote Originally Posted by jim thornton View Post
    I suppose if we really wanted to make this complicated...we could take each person's final "average 100" yard time and subject it to the Finnish formula.
    No need to take the "average 100," you can use a similar age-adjusting calculator on the Virginia LMSC web site:

    http://www.vaswim.org/cgi-bin/rcalc.cgi

    Right now it is set up only for events up to the 1650 but I could easily calculate the records curve for the other swims -- it works for anything that has national records (though Jason, our web master, may not like me much if I ask him to add it!).

  15. #15
    Very Active Member quicksilver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Eastern Long Island
    Posts
    1,490
    Blog Entries
    325

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    I often lose count right around the 300 yard mark.

    Great idea though. Sounds like the distance people would dominate this event.

  16. #16
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,908
    Blog Entries
    563

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    Quote Originally Posted by quicksilver View Post
    Sounds like the distance people would dominate this event.
    I'm not so sure. Say a sprinter beats a distance swimmer by two seconds in the 100. That mean the distance guy/gal needs to beat the sprinter by 33 seconds in the 1650 to erase the sprinter's 100 advantage.

  17. #17
    CreamPuff
    Guest

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    Quote Originally Posted by knelson View Post
    I'm not so sure. Say a sprinter beats a distance swimmer by two seconds in the 100. That mean the distance guy/gal needs to beat the sprinter by 33 seconds in the 1650 to erase the sprinter's 100 advantage.
    This example is possible.

    In my case, there's this gal that I swim with who is on the SR I team (she's 18). She beats me by about 2 seconds in the LCM 50 FR and more on the 100 (3 seconds or so). She has Senior National cuts and is very near trials times in these events. Anything over a 200 and she falls apart. I start lapping her at 500s and certainly at the 1650 (more than 33 seconds.) It's interesting nonetheless. . .

    Perhaps this is an extreme example. But don't underestimate the ability of sprinters to fall apart mentally and physically on distance.

  18. #18
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,908
    Blog Entries
    563

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    Quote Originally Posted by (S)he-Man View Post
    Perhaps this is an extreme example. But don't underestimate the ability of sprinters to fall apart mentally and physically on distance.
    Sprinters in Masters don't have to worry about falling apart because they'd never dream of actually swimming a 500, much less a 1650. Kid sprinters only do these events if their coaches force them to.

    So, actually quicksilver's point is well taken. Distance swimmers would dominate because only distance swimmers actually would swim the entire complement of events required.

  19. #19
    Very Active Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    8,019
    Blog Entries
    1205

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    sprinters could do a
    25
    50
    100 &
    200

    calculate the 25 pace per event then
    calculate the average 25 pace for all the events

    I see no point for sprinters to do those
    detrimental distance swims

  20. #20
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,908
    Blog Entries
    563

    Re: Freestyle Decathalon Event? All Around Freestyle Honors

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    I see no point for sprinters to do those
    detrimental distance swims
    Detrimental to your psyche, you mean?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •