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Thread: Help My Speed is Horrible!

  1. #81
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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    I hope there is still interest in this thread!
    there is

    you're 32, male, swam competitively till 14
    inactive for the last 6 years or so
    started swimming again 5 weeks ago as part of a weight loss drive,
    knee problems
    got 10lbs to lose & you'll weigh 205lbs
    more weight loss should have a positive effect on my times.

    current SCM from a push start times
    400 - 7:01
    200 - 3:28
    100 - 1:39.8
    50 - 37.4s
    25 - 16s

    you're swimming 5/6 times a week

    your goals:
    100 1:15 OR BETTER
    400 6 mins or less
    50 30 OR BETTER

    Any and all advice is appreciated, particularly with a view to tweaking my workouts for better effect (i put it together myself, so it probably isn't very good! I'm entirely open to changing it completely).

    THE MAIN THING IS
    KEEP SHOWING UP,
    KEEP TRAINING
    KEEP LOSING WEIGHT
    WORK ON IMPROVING YOUR SPEED AND GETTING IN BETTER SHAPE FOR LONGER SWIMS

    YOU HAVE A SERIOUS DROP OFF BETWEEN YOUR 50 & 100 PACE
    37.4 50 TIME
    49.9 50 PACE FOR YOUR 100, (1:39.8)
    WORK ON GETTING YOUR 100 FASTER
    SEE HOW MUCH YOU CAN BRING IT DOWN OVER THE NEXT MONTH

    READ SWIM FASTER FASTER

    ANDE

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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    Thanks for that Ande, your faster faster tips are great for getting me thinking about what's going on when I swim, I just notice little things that I wouldn't have been thinking about otherwise!

    I did this training session tonight:
    [ame="http://forums.usms.org/showpost.php?p=163448&postcount=15"]U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - Intermediate Swimming Workouts - By Andy[/ame]
    and it reminded me why I stopped swimming in the first place! I did it as a completely freestyle session, and didn't do the swim from the flags thing.

    I timed my first 100 at a pretty hard pace (not quite flat out, had the next 9 in mind!) and did it in 1:29.1, which I was pretty pleased with, as I was hoping to do it in about 1:33/34. I did the next few in 1:31, 33, 36 and then 38/39 for the final few. I was taking 45 secs rest between each. Is this too much? By number 4 I was ready to get out of the pool, burn my jammer and go to Burger King to start back on the 54lbs I've lost!

    I did the 50's at a fairly consistent 44/45s, with a couple a bit faster and slower, with 30secs rest between each one. There wasn't a whole lot left in the tank by the time I finished the 100's.

    It was really satisfying to complete this session, like I said, by the 4th 100 I really didn't think I'd be able to continue.

    Now, my question for tonight, breathing. I'm breathing every stroke cycle, into the turn, and as soon as I surface after the turn. I know this isn't the way to do it, but any less frequently and I feel like my lungs will explode. Plus, even if I force myself to do it, I reckon my already poor times will really go to hell. Do I just need to man up and force myself to do it, or is there any way I should approach training to deal with this?

    Thanks again for all your assistance!
    Last edited by Hammer2009; April 7th, 2010 at 07:45 PM.

  3. #83
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    Re:

    you're welcome, just keep after it

    I hope some folks will accept the challenge to improve their speed.
    Start doing the sets, testing each week & posting their results here in
    Help My Speed is Horrible!

    ande


    Quote Originally Posted by Hammer2009 View Post
    Thanks for that Ande, your faster faster tips are great for getting me thinking about what's going on when I swim, I just notice little things that I wouldn't have been thinking about otherwise!

    I did this training session tonight:
    U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - Intermediate Swimming Workouts - By Andy
    and it reminded me why I stopped swimming in the first place! I did it as a completely freestyle session, and didn't do the swim from the flags thing.

    I timed my first 100 at a pretty hard pace (not quite flat out, had the next 9 in mind!) and did it in 1:29.1, which I was pretty pleased with, as I was hoping to do it in about 1:33/34. I did the next few in 1:31, 33, 36 and then 38/39 for the final few. I was taking 45 secs rest between each. Is this too much? By number 4 I was ready to get out of the pool, burn my jammer and go to Burger King to start back on the 54lbs I've lost!

    I did the 50's at a fairly consistent 44/45s, with a couple a bit faster and slower, with 30secs rest between each one. There wasn't a whole lot left in the tank by the time I finished the 100's.

    It was really satisfying to complete this session, like I said, by the 4th 100 I really didn't think I'd be able to continue.

    Now, my question for tonight, breathing. I'm breathing every stroke cycle, into the turn, and as soon as I surface after the turn. I know this isn't the way to do it, but any less frequently and I feel like my lungs will explode. Plus, even if I force myself to do it, I reckon my already poor times will really go to hell. Do I just need to man up and force myself to do it, or is there any way I should approach training to deal with this?

    Thanks again for all your assistance!

  4. #84
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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    For what its worth - I had a proud moment last night. My practice was 2950 SCY and the very last set was 12 x 25 fast. The very last 25 I swam in 0:18 which to my knowledge is my all time record. Needless to say I was completely useless for the next 2-3 minutes, but I was proud!
    "Fran operated under the assumption that one’s ability to cope with the travails of daily life fluctuates in direct proportion to one’s willingness to work through hurt." -Ian Prichard

  5. #85
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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by bzaks1424 View Post
    For what its worth - I had a proud moment last night. My practice was 2950 SCY and the very last set was 12 x 25 fast. The very last 25 I swam in 0:18 which to my knowledge is my all time record. Needless to say I was completely useless for the next 2-3 minutes, but I was proud!
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    Hi Ande,

    I've done my first testing today:

    30.Apr.2012 SCM / All times I took by myself looking at the pace watch / All starts are from push / Kicking without board / Shaved ... face:

    25 free - 15"
    25 flutter kick - 27" (Help, my flutter kick is horrible) ))
    25 fly - 19"
    25 SDK - 26"
    +++

    I will check my 50m times when I swim in LCM.

    Tomorrow I am going to include your advise in my training routine, but something is not very clear to me. You are saying:

    1) do this set 2 or 3 times a week, 12 x 25 swim
    3 EASY recovery concentrating on perfect form
    1 as fast as possible for time
    ...
    3) work on improving your flutter kick and SDK
    do 2 x (4 x 25) swim
    2 x (4 x 25) flutter kick
    2 x (4 x 25) SDK
    So, shall I do 1) or 3)? What rest intervals; what effort on 3)? I would like to improve my fly stroke technique and sprint times. Is there any sense to alternate fr/fly on above training? I am currently swimming 4 times per week, which can be increased to 5 hopefully.
    To swim is human, to fly is divine!

  7. #87
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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by sasho1999 View Post
    Hi Ande,

    I've done my first testing today:

    30.Apr.2012 SCM / All times I took by myself looking at the pace watch / All starts are from push / Kicking without board / Shaved ... face:

    25 free - 15"
    25 flutter kick - 27" (Help, my flutter kick is horrible) ))
    25 fly - 19"
    25 SDK - 26"
    +++
    I will check my 50m times when I swim in LCM.
    Tomorrow I am going to include your advise in my training routine, but something is not very clear to me. You are saying:
    So, shall I do 1) or 3)? What rest intervals; what effort on 3)? I would like to improve my fly stroke technique and sprint times. Is there any sense to alternate fr/fly on above training? I am currently swimming 4 times per week, which can be increased to 5 hopefully.
    Hey Sasho

    congratulations on doing your first testing:

    SCM
    timed by looking at the pace clock
    Push starts
    No board on kicks:

    12/04/30
    25 free - 15" / 25 flutter k - 27" / 25 fly - 19" / 25 SDK - 26"
    what kind of a suit did you wear?

    Get a waterproof stop watch.
    the best way to time your fast swims is to have someone time you
    that way you can concentrate on swimming fast & your friend or volunteer can get your times
    It would be really cool to have one friend time you and another friend video you.
    (you don't need to video everytime, just occasionally, like once every 6 to 8 weeks)


    I will check my 50m times when I swim in LCM.
    OK but focus on 25's for now
    get your times for 15 meters too


    Today you plan to do some of my recommended sets

    you asked:
    So, shall I do 1) or 3)?
    What rest intervals; what effort on 3)?
    I would like to improve my fly stroke technique and sprint times.
    Is there any sense to alternate fr/fly on above training?
    I am currently swimming 4 times per week, which can be increased to 5 hopefully


    Sasho I suggest you work on improving your free, fly , flutter kick & SDK
    do this set:
    Evens: are easy, when you finish a length rest on the wall 30 to 60 sec before starting your next FAST
    Odds: are VERY FAST, AFAP, get your time then start your easy 10 sec later

    6 x 25 free
    6 x 25 free or back on easy / FLY on FAST
    6 x 25 flutter kick
    6 x 25 SDK
    if you want you can rest a minute or 2 between each set of 6
    you want your fast to be VERY FAST

    you can also do 15 meter sprints instead of 25's

    PUSH OFF HARD
    Streamline skinny
    Swim fast

    you want to improve your fly technique
    I really need to see what you're doing before I give a list of things to work on. have a friend with an Iphone or video recorder or an underwater video recorder make a video of you swimming fly fast
    shoot head on and from the side and underwater from the side if possible
    put a HD video on youtube and post a link here.

    Also watch the very best betterflyers in the world and copy their technique.

    Only swim fly fast or not at all
    you can get most of your conditioning from swimming free
    if you have or can get an underwater camera shoot

  8. #88
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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    Hi Ande,

    Tks for advice! How many times per week shall I do the sets? I am going to ask my coach to include them in my workouts. I've read that you are doing Fast Fridays, is this enough?

    I wore ordinary swimming briefs. At my level, the only real competitor which I have is myself, so I will stick to the briefs.

    Re: underwater filming - this is quite tough to be organized. Above water seems feasible, though there are not many volunteers at 07:00 am )).

    Have a great day!

    P.s. I've seen what this lady Leslie has done at the Nationals - unbelievable!

  9. #89
    Very Active Member __steve__'s Avatar
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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    It would be really cool to have one friend time you and another friend video you.
    I just use the video footage for timing. It is very accurate and requires no volunteers.

  10. #90
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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by sasho1999 View Post
    Hi Ande,
    Tks for advice! How many times per week shall I do the sets? I am going to ask my coach to include them in my workouts. I've read that you are doing Fast Fridays, is this enough?
    I wore ordinary swimming briefs. At my level, the only real competitor which I have is myself, so I will stick to the briefs.
    Re: underwater filming - this is quite tough to be organized. Above water seems feasible, though there are not many volunteers at 07:00 am )).
    Have a great day!
    P.s. I've seen what this lady Leslie has done at the Nationals - unbelievable!

    sure

    How many times per week shall I do the sets?
    2 to 5

    ask your coach or do extra credit

    are Fast Fridays enough?
    NO, I swim fast other days of the week and modify workouts as meets approach to do more short fast stuff with rest

    underwater filming - this is quite tough to be organized.
    not really you just get a friend, who's a good swimmer and has an underwater camera. There's many very affordable ones

    P.s. I've seen what this lady Leslie has done at the Nationals - unbelievable!

    Leslie is quite remarkable and has really improved her ability. She's gone from being in the top 5 or 10 in her age group to the top of her age group in her focus events, 50 & 100 FL & BK. She's developed an excellent SDK. She keeps getting faster despite often training alone, injuries, illnesses, family obligations, & sleep deprivation.

    one woman's miracle is another womans engineering.

    read more about her.

    Leslie's Blog

    [ame="http://www.usms.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=115"]High Intensity Training - by Leslie Livingston[/ame]
    Leslie is a self-coached sprint specialist who emphasizes race-pace training and underwater dolphin kicking. Her workouts focus on high-intensity training for the competitive sprinter.


    SFF tip about Leslie Tip 335 [ame="http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=239002&postcount=1601"]Build a Fortress of Speed & Strength[/ame]

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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    Hi Ande,

    I had some timing last week. Here are the results:
    03.05.12 I did your workout:
    Evens: are easy, when you finish a length rest on the wall 30 to 60 sec before starting your next FAST
    Odds: are VERY FAST, AFAP, get your time then start your easy 10 sec later

    6 x 25 free
    6 x 25 free or back on easy / FLY on FAST
    6 x 25 flutter kick
    6 x 25 SDK
    LCM; Lane full of people trying to swim. All times taken by own watch chrono: Press the start button, then push from the wall. When I reach 25m mark -> press stop.

    25 fr - 21.84 / 20.6 / 21.3

    25 fl - 21.92 / 21.5 / 22.27
    25 flutter kick - 30.7 / 29.08 / 29.15
    25 SDK - 28.32 / 27.03 / 27.16



    05.05.2012
    On Saturday after the workout, my coach took my 50m times for all 4 strokes, LCM, from push; starting on 2:30 - 3:00:
    fl - 42"
    bk - too bad to post
    br - 44"
    fr - 38"
    +++

    From last two weeks I feel some definite improvement in my kicking: Flutter and SDK on face. I have always liked the breast kick, so I consider it as one of my advantages. My times for alll those kicks are quite equal. My problem remains flutter kick on the back - there I am slower by abt 50% (!!!) compared with kick on the face, though I am exercising same effort and trying to flutter my legs+feet in the same way. Any idea for improvement?

    Have a great swim!
    To swim is human, to fly is divine!

  12. #92
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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    Hey Sasho

    congratulations on doing your first testing:

    SCM
    timed by looking at the pace clock
    Push starts
    No board on kicks:

    12/04/30
    25 free - 15" / 25 flutter k - 27" / 25 fly - 19" / 25 SDK - 26"
    what kind of a suit did you wear?

    Get a waterproof stop watch.
    the best way to time your fast swims is to have someone time you
    that way you can concentrate on swimming fast & your friend or volunteer can get your times
    It would be really cool to have one friend time you and another friend video you.
    (you don't need to video everytime, just occasionally, like once every 6 to 8 weeks)


    I will check my 50m times when I swim in LCM.
    OK but focus on 25's for now
    get your times for 15 meters too


    Today you plan to do some of my recommended sets

    you asked:
    So, shall I do 1) or 3)?
    What rest intervals; what effort on 3)?
    I would like to improve my fly stroke technique and sprint times.
    Is there any sense to alternate fr/fly on above training?
    I am currently swimming 4 times per week, which can be increased to 5 hopefully

    Sasho I suggest you work on improving your free, fly , flutter kick & SDK
    do this set:
    Evens: are easy, when you finish a length rest on the wall 30 to 60 sec before starting your next FAST
    Odds: are VERY FAST, AFAP, get your time then start your easy 10 sec later

    6 x 25 free
    6 x 25 free or back on easy / FLY on FAST
    6 x 25 flutter kick
    6 x 25 SDK
    if you want you can rest a minute or 2 between each set of 6
    you want your fast to be VERY FAST

    you can also do 15 meter sprints instead of 25's

    PUSH OFF HARD
    Streamline skinny
    Swim fast

    you want to improve your fly technique
    I really need to see what you're doing before I give a list of things to work on. have a friend with an Iphone or video recorder or an underwater video recorder make a video of you swimming fly fast
    shoot head on and from the side and underwater from the side if possible
    put a HD video on youtube and post a link here.

    Also watch the very best betterflyers in the world and copy their technique.

    Only swim fly fast or not at all
    you can get most of your conditioning from swimming free
    if you have or can get an underwater camera shoot
    Hi Ande,

    Will you look at my swimming and advice:

    I swim fly side view - http://youtu.be/o5hJQlTKiiw
    I swim fly front view - http://youtu.be/z98V_A6Yal4
    I swim easy free 50m - http://youtu.be/Rc_bf4J9EBA
    I swim free 25m - http://youtu.be/8s5w5PrSeBw
    +++

    Tks in advance!
    Sasho

  13. #93
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    Hi Sasho !

    I am no expert (far from it!), but I will be curious to hear what Ande will say about your fly. To me, it looked great! I am working on my fly, too, so thanks for posting your video, so we can both learn from it.

    Off the subject , are you from Varna, Bulgaria? I visited Bulgaria (Ruse, Arbanassi, Veliko Turnovo, Abotonnka, Vidin) as part of a river cruise, in 2007, and love it!

    Cheers!
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    Hi Elaine,

    Tks for good words about my fly - they match exactly with my dreams

    +++

    Yes, I live in Varna. There are many nice things around here, but this being a swimming forum, I can say that we have a very nice outdoor pool which is open all through the year - even in winter months. Once you get used to it, then you do not want to swim under a roof. In summer, you can supplement your swimming workouts with a pleasant swimming in the sea! See for yourself:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    To swim is human, to fly is divine!

  15. #95
    Participating Member DonF's Avatar
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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    I don't understand clearly your point 1 under "Training" does that mean go easy for 3 25s and then all out for 1 25 then repeat until you reach 12x25s?

  16. #96
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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by Don.fancher@me.com View Post
    I don't understand clearly your point 1 under "Training" does that mean go easy for 3 25s and then all out for 1 25 then repeat until you reach 12x25s?
    Yes or you can do odds easy & evens fast, it's just your fast needs to be very very very fast

  17. #97
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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    Thanks for the quick response.

  18. #98
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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by sasho1999 View Post
    Hi Elaine,

    Tks for good words about my fly - they match exactly with my dreams

    +++

    Yes, I live in Varna. There are many nice things around here, but this being a swimming forum, I can say that we have a very nice outdoor pool which is open all through the year - even in winter months. Once you get used to it, then you do not want to swim under a roof. In summer, you can supplement your swimming workouts with a pleasant swimming in the sea! See for yourself:
    Nice! You have a fantastic facility there. And, being next to the sea is awesome!
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    Hey Ande,

    I want to start your program too.

    Here are my current times for freestyle, SCM, push start, regular briefs:

    25 - 18.85
    50 - 39.05
    75 - 1:03.95
    100 - 1:31.20

    I'll use this version for a speed session, from your first post:

    2 x (4 x 25) swim
    2 x (4 x 25) flutter kick
    2 x (4 x 25) SDK

    Will be doing it 3 times a week, and also 3 times weight training.

    My goal is 29.9 for 50m by March 2013.

    Thanks for the challenge!

    Radu

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    Re: Help My Speed is Horrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by euphilos View Post
    Hey Ande,

    I want to start your program too.

    Here are my current times for freestyle, SCM, push start, regular briefs:

    25 - 18.85
    50 - 39.05
    75 - 1:03.95
    100 - 1:31.20

    I'll use this version for a speed session, from your first post:

    2 x (4 x 25) swim
    2 x (4 x 25) flutter kick
    2 x (4 x 25) SDK

    Will be doing it 3 times a week, and also 3 times weight training.

    My goal is 29.9 for 50m by March 2013.

    Thanks for the challenge!

    Radu
    Dropping 10 seconds in time on the 50 in 8 months time is VERY ambitious. More realistic would be 5 seconds. And that would be quite an achievement. Let us know how you continue.

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