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Thread: Training for the 100 fly?

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    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Training for the 100 fly?

    I'm seeking advice on training for the 100 fly. Decided to start swimming it last year. Swam it 7x on the three courses. I can only remember 3x times where I didn't suffer from complete paralysis the last 15 meters or so and worry about a DQ. Gah. So how can I fix this?

    I've read that you don't need to train fly in practice. I'm not sure I buy this. The muscular fatigue from fly seems unique. And I don't want to substitute freestyle training for it.

    What are some good sets? How many SDKs per length should I take to prevent oxygen debt? If too much fly hurts the shoulders, is kicking a decent training substitute?

    I also seem to swim better 100 flys on a week rest. The paralysis seems to be associated with a 2 week taper. Does aerobic fitness drop off that quickly? Is this an age thing? Or is it that I just don't train enough yards for a 2 week taper?

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    Very Active Member smontanaro's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Leslie,

    I anxiously await responses to this. If I was to have written this message though I would have shortened the distance, to perhaps "25 fly". I'm fine as long as I don't have to breathe and don't whack my hand on the lane line thus causing a wonderful pain in my right shoulder...

    Skip

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    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    I do think you need to train fly, but it doesn't have to be 100s. Repeats of 50s and even 25s will help with your fly endurance. Just don't take too much rest. I swim the 200 fly in meets sometimes, but virtually never do a 200 fly in practice. There's a writeup by Jon Urbanchek on USA Swimming's site about how Tom Malchow trained. Despite specializing in the 200 fly, he never did 200 flys in training. I think the same thing could be applied to the 100 fly.

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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    I've read that you don't need to train fly in practice. I'm not sure I buy this. The muscular fatigue from fly seems unique. And I don't want to substitute freestyle training for it.
    I have to agree with you here. One of my favourite sets is 40 x 25m @ :25 alternating fly and free. I usually cruise through this set and feel like I could swim 25's fly endlessly (well, you know what I mean). Every now and then I throw in some 50's as well. I would say, I do quite a high volume of fly (at least 2000m per week) but I still die on the last 15 - 25m's of a 100. I am convinced the only way it is going to get easier is if I swim more 100's in practice.
    Last edited by Syd; September 9th, 2008 at 10:56 AM.

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    Very Active Member pdjang's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    I'm seeking advice on training for the 100 fly. Decided to start swimming it last year. Swam it 7x on the three courses. I can only remember 3x times where I didn't suffer from complete paralysis the last 15 meters or so and worry about a DQ. Gah. So how can I fix this?

    I've read that you don't need to train fly in practice. I'm not sure I buy this. The muscular fatigue from fly seems unique. And I don't want to substitute freestyle training for it.

    What are some good sets? How many SDKs per length should I take to prevent oxygen debt? If too much fly hurts the shoulders, is kicking a decent training substitute?

    I also seem to swim better 100 flys on a week rest. The paralysis seems to be associated with a 2 week taper. Does aerobic fitness drop off that quickly? Is this an age thing? Or is it that I just don't train enough yards for a 2 week taper?
    My 2 cents - "specificity in practice results in improved performance" -so I would practice swimming 100 flys exactly as you plan to do so in a meet - down to the number of SDKs, turns and percieved pace. You should build a base of butterfly swimming, drill and kicks before such race pace sets - hopefully, that will reduce the probability of shoulder injuries.

    Muscular tetanus ( dying so badly you can barely recovery your arms ) may result from 1) trying too hard at the start ( don't take it out so fast, be smooth and relaxed - which is something to practice during the race pace sets) and/or 2) lack of conditioning (your 1 week versus 2 week taper observation). Aging reduces VO2 max - but it should not play a significant difference in an short duration event.

    One of my favorite train up sets is as follows:
    25 free (hypoxic) + 75 fly easy
    50 free (hypoxic) + 50 fly easy
    75 free (hypoxic) + 25 fly blast
    with enough recovery time to bring your heart rate down.

    Good luck with the 100 Fly

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    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by knelson View Post
    I do think you need to train fly, but it doesn't have to be 100s. Repeats of 50s and even 25s will help with your fly endurance. Just don't take too much rest.
    That's the problem! Fly on short rest is hard. But I'll work on it. I do a lot of 25s, and some 50s. Occasionally, I've done a timed 100 or broken 100s. Can't imagine doing a whole set of 100 flys.

    One set I was recommended was 3 x (5 x 50 fly) on a descending interval. Really a tough set for me. I did it once and had to take a 50 EZ between each set of 5.

    Thanks for the other sets! I think I'll do Syd's 40 x 25 today.

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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    seeking advice on training for the 100 fly
    only remember 3x times where I didn't suffer from complete paralysis the last 15 meters
    So how can I fix this?


    improve your conditioning train for the 200 free and the 150 fly

    get strong, lift weights, improve your speed

    take 6 to 8 SDKs off each wall

    split the first 50 well don't totally waste your legs

    once a week swim a fast 100 fly for time

    short tapers see to work best for you

    practice fly EZ speed


    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    I'm seeking advice on training for the 100 fly. Decided to start swimming it last year. Swam it 7x on the three courses. I can only remember 3x times where I didn't suffer from complete paralysis the last 15 meters or so and worry about a DQ. Gah. So how can I fix this?

    I've read that you don't need to train fly in practice. I'm not sure I buy this. The muscular fatigue from fly seems unique. And I don't want to substitute freestyle training for it.

    What are some good sets? How many SDKs per length should I take to prevent oxygen debt? If too much fly hurts the shoulders, is kicking a decent training substitute?

    I also seem to swim better 100 flys on a week rest. The paralysis seems to be associated with a 2 week taper. Does aerobic fitness drop off that quickly? Is this an age thing? Or is it that I just don't train enough yards for a 2 week taper?

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    Here to keep it real JimRude's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Since I haven't swam the 100 fly since I was 19 (waaaaay back when), I will assume that the pain/suffering the last 15 y/m is similar to what I experience in the 100 breast.

    Some sets that I do to strengthen the back half of my 100 are:

    - 4-6x: 75 (from a push) at 80% effort, 10 secs rest, 50 at 95-100% effort

    - 3-4x: 100 (from a push), first 50 at "easy speed" effort, last 50 at 100%

    - 3-5x: 100 (from a push), all at maximum effort, on 4:00

    Basically, you want to train your body to be able to cope with the lactic acid that accumulates at the tail end of the race, and to maintain technique when all those around you are losing theirs...
    This bush league psyche-out stuff. Laughable, man - ha ha!

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    Very Active Member elise526's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Fort - Here are some great sets that Ande posted the other day when I asked him a similar question on the Ask Ande thread:

    sets

    20 x 25 on 40, 45 or 50
    evens fast, take 2 SDKs, then 4, then 6, then 8, then 10
    odds take 6 SDKs easy

    20 x 50's on 1:30
    odds easy
    evens fast desc 2, 4, 6, 8, & 10, take at least 6 SDKs off each wall


    15 meters FL from a dive, super fast for time, use your SDKs
    185 very easy
    25 from a dive, super fast for time, use your SDKs
    225 very easy
    50 from a dive, super fast for time, use your SDKs
    250 very easy
    75 from a dive super fast for time, use your SDKs
    275 very easy
    100 from a dive super fast for time, use your SDKs
    300 very easy


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by elise526
    Ande - After some trial runs and times on distance sets, I have figured out that I am most definitely not geared for distance. I would like to try the 100 fly again after only having done the 50 fly for the last ten years. Any suggestions on training for the 100 fly that are different than training for the 50? Any sets you suggest?

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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    My favorite 100 fly sets are either working 75s (because honestly, in a race, the first 25 is pretty easy with the dive and the adrenalin) or 5 x 100 done:

    100 free moderate
    25 fly fast / 75 free moderate
    50 fly fast / 50 free moderate
    75 fly fast / 25 free moderate
    100 fly fast

    on an interval that is giving me ~15s rest. That set usually makes the end of the 100 about as painful as a race if I put in an honest effort.

    To some degree, though, it seems like dying at the end is inevitable.

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    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    I'm seeking advice on training for the 100 fly. Decided to start swimming it last year. Swam it 7x on the three courses. I can only remember 3x times where I didn't suffer from complete paralysis the last 15 meters or so and worry about a DQ. Gah. So how can I fix this?

    I've read that you don't need to train fly in practice. I'm not sure I buy this. The muscular fatigue from fly seems unique. And I don't want to substitute freestyle training for it.

    What are some good sets? How many SDKs per length should I take to prevent oxygen debt? If too much fly hurts the shoulders, is kicking a decent training substitute?

    I also seem to swim better 100 flys on a week rest. The paralysis seems to be associated with a 2 week taper. Does aerobic fitness drop off that quickly? Is this an age thing? Or is it that I just don't train enough yards for a 2 week taper?
    Lots of good answers here and YMMV. A few random thoughts, take them or leave them:

    -- It has also been my experience that you have to train fly to race fly.

    -- Fly is both the most tiring stroke to swim and the one where efficiency suffers the most when you are very tired. A tough combo!

    -- The number of SDKs depends on both your ability to do them without getting too tired, and hitting the wall properly. (For example, in SCY when I use 6 SDKs I always have to glide or jam the stroke.) Initially, at least, I'd opt for fewer SDKs, save your legs and energy. If you were too conservative and you're feeling good you can always through in a Phelps-like last turn!

    -- kicking helps butterfly very much. Legs are used a lot in fly.

    That becomes apparent to me when I swim fly with a parachute, there is a "dead spot" in the stroke where most of the propulsion comes from legs & hips.

    -- legs conditioning is important too: if your legs die in the middle of a 100 fly, you're done.

    -- when you do intense/fast kick sets don't just do 25s and 50s, do fast 75s and 100s with some significant rest.

    For example, at the end of practice today I did 8 x 75 kick on 1:30 (pretty much rest for me) for best average. It hurt, a lot. But it is a good way to condition your legs for the end of races. It also helps a lot on SDKs late in backstroke races.

    -- weight lifting helps butterfly a lot too. You need both power (few reps, high load) and serious muscular endurance (more reps, lighter).

    -- I like some_girl's set a lot, but then again I do a lot of 100s fly in practice. Partly that's because I'm also training for the 200 fly. Still, you might want to try it at first with 30 sec rest, and/or going the freestyle easy instead of moderate. Decrease the rest until the bulk of your recovery is active.

    -- Regardless of the sets you do, you need to reproduce that feeling you get at the end of the race, in practice. I don't think 25s and 50s alone get that done, you need 75s at least.

    Good luck!

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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    As a former flyer, I feel your pain, literally. In Age Group and HS, I would be a champ at the 90M mark...then come back to Earth (HARD!) over the last ten painful meters.

    Shoulder injury in college forced me to change to breaststroke (ah, silver linings...) but I still enjoyed fly.

    My warped view is do 400 IM sets where you have to swim fly, then go on to other strokes. You learn to pace yourself during the first 100M because you race (life?) depends on it. Cruise the 100 fly leg, then go into back, etc., etc. and you get a better idea of how to pace yourself.

    I am toying with the idea of adding the 100 Fly back into my bag of tricks so I will talk to my coaches about this as well and see what they have to say.
    Doug Adamavich

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    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by elise526 View Post
    20 x 50's on 1:30
    odds easy
    evens fast desc 2, 4, 6, 8, & 10, take at least 6 SDKs off each wall
    All 20 fly? I did this today, but did 20 x 50 on the 1:00, alternating easy free and fast fly.

    Thanks! I had missed that on the ask ande thread.

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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    -- kicking helps butterfly very much. Legs are used a lot in fly.

    That becomes apparent to me when I swim fly with a parachute, there is a "dead spot" in the stroke where most of the propulsion comes from legs & hips.

    -- legs conditioning is important too: if your legs die in the middle of a 100 fly, you're done.

    -- when you do intense/fast kick sets don't just do 25s and 50s, do fast 75s and 100s with some significant rest.

    For example, at the end of practice today I did 8 x 75 kick on 1:30 (pretty much rest for me) for best average. It hurt, a lot. But it is a good way to condition your legs for the end of races. It also helps a lot on SDKs late in backstroke races.
    Kicking saves my ass! I kick a lot, and not just short stuff. I did 6 x 150 and 9 x 100 on descending intervals the last couple days. My legs never die in a 100 fly; it is always the arms. I may try more high rep weights to help with this as well as doing more fly in practice.

    Jim, I hadn't swum the 100 fly since I was 19 either. 27 year hiatus! I scratched it a couple times as a master ... had a mental block about swimming it. I overcame this by signing myself up for the 100 fly at a USA-S meet where my kid was swimming. Couldn't possibly scratch it then! At least not without scorn and derision.

    400 IM sets?!

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    Very Active Member born2fly's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Have not read all the advice, but Im sure someone has mentioned be sure to keep the form. If you feel you are losing the form, do the good ole 3 right arms, 3 left arms, 3 double. I also like to focus on the back part of distance. 100's I would either do 50 fly, 25 free, 25fly. I rarely do whole sets all fly. In training for the 200 race, i prefer my favorite set of 5x300s, going 25free then the 75 fly.

    Kicking sets I do a lot of fly kick on my back streamline. I hated this at first because I always prefered streamline on my stomach underwater. However, I think on the back is the way to go. Also, verticle kicking in deep end with medicine ball is good.

    Here is a fly set you could try, just adjust the times to your pace. I do this set often also.

    3 times through
    25 fly
    50 fly
    75 fly free fly
    100 fly,fly,free,fly
    150 50fly,50free 50fly

    Good luck and hope the 100fly works out for ya. Before you know it, you will be asking for advice on training for the 200 :-)

    Greg

    Also think about your breathing pattern, everyone is different. On a 100 race I breath every 3rd and on 200 every other. Its what works for you that matters.

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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    Lots of good answers here and YMMV. A few random thoughts, take them or leave them:

    -- weight lifting helps butterfly a lot too. You need both power (few reps, high load) and serious muscular endurance (more reps, lighter).
    To hijack for a sec, what weight exercises do you feel help you most with fly? I feel like I could use some weight work, but I must admit i don't have either the time or inclination to do lots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    -- I like some_girl's set a lot, but then again I do a lot of 100s fly in practice. Partly that's because I'm also training for the 200 fly. Still, you might want to try it at first with 30 sec rest, and/or going the freestyle easy instead of moderate. Decrease the rest until the bulk of your recovery is active.
    Yeah, I also swim the 200 sometimes (though I can't say I like it much), and when we do sets of 100s, I think of that as more 200 training. The set above, the 75s, and sets where we do 50s on 1:00 or 1:10 (1 fast, 1 easy free), I think of as 100 sets.

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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    If you opt for the not needing to train the 100 to swim the 100, I would recommend ingesting massive amounts of caffeine followed by prayer.

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    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by some_girl View Post
    To hijack for a sec, what weight exercises do you feel help you most with fly? I feel like I could use some weight work, but I must admit i don't have either the time or inclination to do lots.
    I don't know if any of my exercises are really fly-specific since pretty much the same muscle groups are used in the other strokes. Lat pulldowns, tricep pushes and lateral raises maybe come to mind.

    I think it will benefit you but if you really don't want to try weights, at least do something that will increase in-water resistance, such as a drag parachute (most are adjustable) or stretch cords. Painful to use, but afterward you'll feel like you are really flying across the water.

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    Very Active Member LindsayNB's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Out of curiosity, as you die at the end, do you find it is pulling or recovering that you have trouble with, or both? It seems like the muscles used in the pull should be similar to crawl, but the recovery might work a set of muscles not used as much in free?

    There's a race club video with Cavic with his chest on a ball using stretch cords to resist the fly recovery motion.

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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by LindsayNB View Post
    Out of curiosity, as you die at the end, do you find it is pulling or recovering that you have trouble with, or both? It seems like the muscles used in the pull should be similar to crawl, but the recovery might work a set of muscles not used as much in free?

    There's a race club video with Cavic with his chest on a ball using stretch cords to resist the fly recovery motion.
    Definitely the recovery.

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