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Thread: Training for the 100 fly?

  1. #21
    Active Member ddunbar's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    While at a meet sitting next to your coach and an attractive person of the opposite gender, let the coach praise your recent practices and convince you to deck enter the 400 IM. Let the resulting adrenaline and hormones replace rational thought and agree to deck enter. Get on the blocks, have the aforementioned attractive person wave & smile, and go out in a fly split that is not only your PB but also qualifies you for the state meet. Ignore the gorilla that is about tap dance on top of that piano that your realize is going to drop during the free.

    In college, I was either # 4 or # 5 in breast stroke (depending on how my roommate swam). The coach offered to move me to fly where we did not have as much depth. Having been DQed for years as an age grouper I was less than enthusiastic.

    Later in my first round of masters, I got my 100 fly below my 100 free. Lots of kicking drills, lots of lat pulls, especially at the end of the pull. Shock Cords until fatigue and beyond.

    Working on SDK w fins now, but mot ready to haul beer mountain through a 100 fly now.

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    Very Fetching Rump SwimStud's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    Definitely the recovery.
    I'm going to weigh in with the view you should do rear delt exercises. THey are small muscles and have a lot of work to do in the fly motion and thinking about it they do take the bulk of the piano's weight in fly.



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  3. #23
    Very Active Member david.margrave's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Here's what I did for 100 fly long course. 1st 50, breathe 2 up 1 down, last 50, breathe 1 up 1 down. I practiced this, building up until I could complete a 100. I tried to spend less energy lunging up and down and instead concentrate on moving forward.

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    Very Active Member quicksilver's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    There's a fellow Potamic Valley swimmer who comes to our pool in the summer.
    He's also a 100 fly enthusiast. Being in his 50's, he's mindful of potential shoulder breakdowns.

    His training method basically involves a 100 fly towards the end of each workout. If he does it well, he knows he's ready to push through a race no problem.
    He rarely does full sets of fly. Mainly small sets of 50's keeping good form, or broken 100's with very little rest.

    By knowing you can drive home a full 4 lengths, the mental reservation of fading away on the home stretch is gone.
    And you can focus more on your event instead of playing survivor.
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    Very Active Member imspoiled's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by LindsayNB View Post
    Out of curiosity, as you die at the end, do you find it is pulling or recovering that you have trouble with, or both? It seems like the muscles used in the pull should be similar to crawl, but the recovery might work a set of muscles not used as much in free?

    There's a race club video with Cavic with his chest on a ball using stretch cords to resist the fly recovery motion.
    Lindsay--Do you have a link for that video?
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    And maybe lots of aerobic work?

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    Very Active Member funkyfish's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Weightlifting-wise, if your shoulders can manage it (not withstanding injury or impingement), anterior, lateral, and posterior d-bell shoulder raises are good. Try sets with moderate-heavy weight for 6-10 reps, and some with light weight for 14-20 reps. I've also used the stretch bands and tried to mimic the recovery motion and did as many reps as I'd take strokes when swimming a 100 fly (for me that was between 30-36).

    Swimming-wise I like to do 125s broken into free, fly, free, fly, fly or fly, free, fly, free, fly. I use the free as a bit of recovery. Lately I've been trying to do a 100 fly at the end of each swim practice where I'll try and get the maximum distance per stroke on the first 75 and push as hard as possible on the last 25.

    I've also noticed that some days are better than others. Good luck.

  8. #28
    Very Active Member LindsayNB's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by imspoiled View Post
    Lindsay--Do you have a link for that video?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oJbTe4Ph5s

    It's at about the 5:30 mark, and I was wrong he is using cables on a weight machine not stretch cords.

    And maybe lots of aerobic work?
    While not doubting the need for aerobic work I've seen enough people who have no problem swimming 150 free hard without dying that experience the piano in the 100 fly that I don't think aerobic work alone will get you there.

    While it may not apply to anyone here, I know that I and many others can be tempted to "force" the recovery and that that can lead to premature shoulder fatigue compared to a more relaxed recovery that flows with the stroke. And the further back you take your pull the more effort it takes to initiate the forward motion. And that the closer your hands are under the body the more the recovery seems to flow out of the outward movement of the hands toward exit from the water.

    The above video and this one:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlCvuHmfT38
    have some good slow motion shots of the entry and catch, I was surprised at how his hands aren't that far apart even at the beginning, and then pull straight back. Crocker and Phelps sweep out wider in the early part of the pull.

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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by LindsayNB View Post
    While not doubting the need for aerobic work I've seen enough people who have no problem swimming 150 free hard without dying that experience the piano in the 100 fly that I don't think aerobic work alone will get you there.
    Really didn't need to hear that Lindsey

    Since I am swimming my first ever 100y Fly as a Master in a little over two weeks, I only hope that I die AFTER the last turn and not before.

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    Very Active Member FlyQueen's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Another good way to train for the 100 ... do 100s 50 free/50 fly. On the free work it! Swim it fast and do a lot of SDKs. This will get you a bit tired going into the 50 fly. I also think from time to time you do need to do 100s and even 125s so you know what to expect, how to handle it, and your body swims "tired fly" from time to time.
    "I don't race to see who is the fastest, I race to see who has the most guts."

  11. #31
    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by james lucas View Post
    And maybe lots of aerobic work?
    Hahaha. Touche. I actually did more aerobic work this summer for LC. I'm doing some this fall as well. But I think Lindsay is correct that it's not solely aerobic. I've seen the piano fall on even the very fit. I think I have been neglecting the rear delt work, as Stud notes. So I will do that along with some fly specific training. Although a 100 fly for time at the end of each practice seems a bit much ... it would become too much of a chore for me.

  12. #32
    Active Member the17thman's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    The key to swimming anything is practice! You don't need to do 10x100's butterfly during a workout but you need to do fly. Swimming the 100 butterfly is not like swimming the 100 freestyle it's more like swimming the 800 freestyle. While the 200 butterfly is more like swimming the 1500 freestyle. You need to practice your race strategy.

    You don't want to do so much fly the stroke falls apart and you pretty much are dying in the water but you need to do enough to get into the groove of the stroke. Lot's of time when we get the choice of doing stroke in a set I'll add butterfly and backstroke into the mix. Give myself some recovery time in between the various butterfly. Start with 25's and 50's and over time add in a 100 here and there.

    Those special times when the coach let's you do a 100 for time do the butterfly. Get a base time and then break it down into splits by 25. Then when you swim those 25 and 50 fly's you know your base time.

  13. #33
    Very Active Member Paul Smith's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    As is always the case there is no "cookie cutter" approach. Things like body type, flexibility, aerobic vs. physical strengths...and with regard to fly the most forgotten aspect mental...how many people dread swimming/racing fly because of the pain that might be involved. I see this as the same problem one has when skiing, if you look at the tree you'll hit it. If you go into a race worrying about failing you probably will.

    Another point, there are two types of fly and in general very few people I see who excel at both. The exceptional 200 flyers are extremely well conditioned and do well in the 400/500 free's, 400IM, etc. etc. These folks can swim long fly seats/repeats in workout, many have adapted to breath every stroke and generally have a minimal kick....all things that are usually the opposite from what you need to do in the 50/100 fly.

    For me I can honestly say I haven't swam a 100 fly in workout since college. I work endlessly on form and power. Lot's of drills, lots of hard kicking...tempo-tempo-tempo! I also never worry about dying...maybe thats my problem!!
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    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    What fly drills are you doing, Paul? How do you work on tempo? Lots of 25s?

    The piano doesn't seem to deter me. I'm signed up for another 100 fly in October. No 200s for me, for the reasons you mention above.
    Last edited by The Fortress; September 10th, 2008 at 07:57 PM.

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    Very Active Member Big AL's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Overall conditioning is the main factor, but 25 and 50's fast will help the most.... not lots of fly. I like to mix in some extreme speed using fins about once a week. Try not to breath every stroke during speed in practice and never breath off the walls.... ever. Race fly from a dive and when in meets whenever possible.
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    Very Active Member rtodd's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    I equate the 100 fly to running the 400m. It is very pshycological. Many times in practice I could not bring myself to run hard 400's.

    To practice for the 400, I used to run alot of 300's and 350's. The thinking being you imprint the right race pace at practice without enduring the piano and in a meet there will be something left to bring it home. If you run full 400's in practice for time, you will probably run it wrong and take it out too slow so there will be something left.

    Maybe for the 100 fly I would try race pace 75's, turn, SDK agressively and break out free and glide 25. Get comfortable doing these.

    Finally the best training is done at meets. Try doing the 100 fly at every meet this year.

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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    There is a lot of good advice already. This is my two cents:

    -- When I crash at the end of the 100, I think it may be because I haven't breathed enough going out. It's tempting to not breath when you take it out but you pay in the end.

    -- Last year I started incorporating 75 flys into my workout. About once every ten days I would start with a set of 10 75's, going about as fast as I can, on 1:30. I think rest is very important and if I don't rest enough I break down completely and there is no point sloshing through. So, find out how long you need to rest to be able to swim the 75's quickly. It's not race pace because I breath each stroke, but I think it helped in the 100 and the 200.

    -- For the 100 I also do sets of 50's off the blocks, pretty much all out. Not often, but a few times in the weeks before a meet...just to get the feel of the start, break out, turns, etc. I also do 25's, and for both I give myself plenty of rest. Whatever you need.

    -- It's a "feel" stroke and you'll have to find the best way for your body to swim it.

    Since you've already raced the 100 fly--including LCM, which is almost a different race altogether, and more difficult--you've already overcome the toughest hurdle: just doing it. Good luck.

  18. #38
    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big AL View Post
    25 and 50's fast will help the most.... not lots of fly. I like to mix in some extreme speed using fins about once a week. Try not to breath every stroke during speed in practice and never breath off the walls.... ever. Race fly from a dive and when in meets whenever possible.
    Well, I've done lots of this, Al, but I think I need something more. It's not enough to stave off the piano!

    Rob, You're right! That's why I've tried to swim it a lot last year. Can't do it every meet because it's often a back to back event with backstroke.

    Paul, I wonder if you (and Ande and JF) can get away with not doing much fly because you've been swimming masters for so long? I think my super long layoff killed my aerobic base somewhat. My fly "feel" bounced back more slowly than my long axis strokes.

    Greg, thanks for the advice! I will try the 10 x 75 fly. I do think in a couple of my 100 flys where I've crashed it's been due to taking too many SDKs. So I either need better hypoxic training or fewer SDKs. The long course 100 fly WAS a different experience and I breathed every other stroke. Not doing that again without better conditioning!

  19. #39
    Very Active Member Big AL's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Ok... my recommendation for your next step is to train for the specific issue... but still only train 25s and 50s. If you have trouble on the end of the race, train to get stronger at that point you are weakest.

    If you are doing 100s... or 200s (or even 500s), swim free on the front, then go the last 25 or 50 fly. Heart rate is up, and you are fatigued just enough, but not from blowing out your shoulders from training the front part fly (after short rest, too) just to get to the point where you are hitting the piano, but can't train there because you are hitting the piano.... a catch-22.

    Focus on perfect technique and keep the hips high.

    .... and keep up the speed training.
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  20. #40
    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    There is a cadre of people who recommend swimming no longer than 50 yards fly at a time, when training for the 100 fly.

    So, my question is: why? Is there some reason other than preserving shoulders? (And I grant that may be sufficient reason for many.)

    The only one I can think of -- other than pain avoidance -- is wanting to avoid swimming with sloppy technique. Fair enough, but if you cannot swim 100 fly without your stroke falling apart then I think you have a problem when it comes time to race.

    I can understand not wanting to do sets of 100s fly with 20 seconds rest -- or similar types of sets with lots of fly and little rest -- that's training for the 200.

    But never (or hardly ever) swimming a 100 fly in practice? I just don't see why that would be. Would people make the same recommendation if we were talking about training for the 100 back/breast/free?

    If you avoid the 100 fly in practice as too painful then IMO you're setting yourself up to fade badly on the last 25. And 75 or 100 fly repeats -- with significant recovery between them -- is good conditioning for this type of race. (In ADDITION to 25s and 50s, not replacing them.)

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