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Thread: Training for the 100 fly?

  1. #41
    Very Active Member Paul Smith's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    There is a cadre of people who recommend swimming no longer than 50 yards fly at a time, when training for the 100 fly.

    So, my question is: why? Is there some reason other than preserving shoulders? (And I grant that may be sufficient reason for many.)

    The only one I can think of -- other than pain avoidance -- is wanting to avoid swimming with sloppy technique. Fair enough, but if you cannot swim 100 fly without your stroke falling apart then I think you have a problem when it comes time to race.

    I can understand not wanting to do sets of 100s fly with 20 seconds rest -- or similar types of sets with lots of fly and little rest -- that's training for the 200.

    But never (or hardly ever) swimming a 100 fly in practice? I just don't see why that would be. Would people make the same recommendation if we were talking about training for the 100 back/breast/free?

    If you avoid the 100 fly in practice as too painful then IMO you're setting yourself up to fade badly on the last 25. And 75 or 100 fly repeats -- with significant recovery between them -- is good conditioning for this type of race. (In ADDITION to 25s and 50s, not replacing them.)
    Chris (& Leslie),
    In my case shoulder preservation is extremally important...but I also find that (again for me) technique is so critical that I like to swim fly at or close to race speed unless doing drills. I train for the 100 (never swim the 200) and in a sense swim lots of boken 100's.

    I have nothing against people who may want to swim longer distances and more reps of fly...it just hasn't ever been something that I needed to do to prep for a race.

    Fort...I do a lot of drills:
    - left are/both arms (w/breath)/right arm. Variations include doing single, double or triple, breathing to alternate sides on the single arm stroke, etc. For me this is the best drill to work on rythym of the stroke.

    - super slow fly. Baker turned me on to this...start out floating prone in the pool and work thru the stoke at hyper slow speed checking and feeling hand placement, hip movement, light kick.

    - Fin work. Under water power kicks w/w-o fins. etc.

    Also...if your seizing up at the end of the race your probably making the most common mistake in fly and swimming with your arms vs. your "core".

    One last thing....I really think that flexibility is far more important than strength and aerobic conditioning when it comes to swimming fly well & not seizing up at the end of a race.
    Last edited by Paul Smith; September 11th, 2008 at 10:14 AM.
    I crack myself up. It is jealousy. It is Boredom. I Did not accomplish enough when I was young, and I hate anybody faster/younger than me.

  2. #42
    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Smith View Post
    Fort...I do a lot of drills:
    - left are/both arms (w/breath)/right arm. Variations include doing single, double or triple, breathing to alternate sides on the single arm stroke, etc. For me this is the best drill to work on rythym of the stroke.

    - super slow fly. Baker turned me on to this...start out floating prone in the pool and work thru the stoke at hyper slow speed checking and feeling hand placement, hip movement, light kick
    I like these drills too, and fly drilling in general...they obviously help technique but even help fly conditioning if you do them enough.

    Another one I like is the one the age-group coaches here call the "Nemo" drill: 3-4 kicks underwater for each pull. I find it really helps on timing (efficient fly is all about timing/rhythm, IMO). Plus it is something you can do for slightly longer distances, it is still tiring but not unbearably so.

  3. #43
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    This thread reminds me of the Lewis Carroll quote, "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there."

    My first question was how fast or what does Leslie want to accomplish with this 100 fly. Simply feel good and not die; best masters time; lifetime best - and by how much; national record; #1 in the nation; a specific time; something else?!

    For me personally, I trained very differently when I -
    Got within a couple of seconds of a 100 fly lifetime best [Just good general conditioning after a 12 yr layoff and doing 25s and 50s fly in training; no weights or dryland]vs.

    Went a lifetime best [Started doing some "mini" fly sets including on occasion 5x100 fly on an ez to moderate interval; some increased yardage; some ez/ moderate weights] vs.

    Went significantly faster than lifetime best [Doing sets that focus on my weaknesses; swimming in the fly lane w/ the kids during the week; more serious dryland and weights; learning SDK and kicking]

    So it all depends on 1. your background (which I think most of us know) and 2. your goal(s) (I don't know)

  4. #44
    Very Active Member Paul Smith's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    I like these drills too, and fly drilling in general...they obviously help technique but even help fly conditioning if you do them enough.

    Another one I like is the one the age-group coaches here call the "Nemo" drill: 3-4 kicks underwater for each pull. I find it really helps on timing (efficient fly is all about timing/rhythm, IMO). Plus it is something you can do for slightly longer distances, it is still tiring but not unbearably so.

    Chris, a couple of seasons ago when I decided to be an IM'er for nationals and was forced to work on the evil stroke the "nemo" drill was what probably helped me the most. So here's a question...ever try it in free of back? Take two strokes than "dive" under and kick for several yards...
    I crack myself up. It is jealousy. It is Boredom. I Did not accomplish enough when I was young, and I hate anybody faster/younger than me.

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    Very Active Member isobel's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    If you go to my "swan dive fly" post, "Bud" has responded with two great links to articles from H20 Houston about pulsing the core as a way of training fly.

    If I were smarter with links, I would put them here. Hmmm. Let's see if I can: Nope. Wait. Whoa! I'm better than I thought: Here's one: Slip-Slidíní Away. And here's the other! Vive le Papillon!

    All credit to Bud. I found these articles helpful. Good luck.

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    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by (S)he-Man View Post
    This thread reminds me of the Lewis Carroll quote, "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there."

    My first question was how fast or what does Leslie want to accomplish with this 100 fly. Simply feel good and not die; best masters time; lifetime best - and by how much; national record; #1 in the nation; a specific time; something else?!

    For me personally, I trained very differently when I -
    Got within a couple of seconds of a 100 fly lifetime best [Just good general conditioning after a 12 yr layoff and doing 25s and 50s fly in training; no weights or dryland]vs.

    Went a lifetime best [Started doing some "mini" fly sets including on occasion 5x100 fly on an ez to moderate interval; some increased yardage; some ez/ moderate weights] vs.

    Went significantly faster than lifetime best [Doing sets that focus on my weaknesses; swimming in the fly lane w/ the kids during the week; more serious dryland and weights; learning SDK and kicking]

    So it all depends on 1. your background (which I think most of us know) and 2. your goal(s) (I don't know)
    For me, lifetime bests are irrelevant. I truly don't care; I feel like I'm in my second swim career. So, as far as goals, I'd say I'd like to do masters bests and continue improving. If I do that, rankings will take care of themselves. And I am forced to adapt my training to take into account the intrusions of RL and my propensity to get injured. Like Paul, shoulder preservation is extremely high on my priority list. And there is a huge difference between lifetime bests at 47 and 35. You're young and strong, hotstuff!

    Don't get me wrong ... I'm nasty competitive ... I have stretch times in mind. And I think the 100 fly is an event where I should be able to drop a lot of time if I train properly. This thread has given me lots of good advice. I'm going to try the NEMO drill for sure, and also do more fly drilling in general. But I'm pretty convinced that I have to do more than 50s in practice.

    Thanks Isobel! I will check out those links.

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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Smith View Post
    I have nothing against people who may want to swim longer distances and more reps of fly...it just hasn't ever been something that I needed to do to prep for a race.

    Also...if your seizing up at the end of the race your probably making the most common mistake in fly and swimming with your arms vs. your "core". One last thing....I really think that flexibility is far more important than strength and aerobic conditioning when it comes to swimming fly well & not seizing up at the end of a race.
    That's cuz you're you! I don't have your swimming background.

    What kind of yoga are you doing for flexibility? How do you ensure you're swimming with your core?

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    Very Active Member swimmj's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    I think no one approach fits all swimmers, as noted above, but here are some things that help me:

    1) work on technique, and if you can get a private lesson with a strong stroke coach, so much the better.

    2) if you are struggling with the recovery at the end of the 100, it's likely that you are swimming too flat - ie, not using your chest to start your stroke. Do enough fly in practice that you swim some tired and work on keeping your stroke together. For me, it's always about not getting too flat - press you chest down and see if that helps you to get your hips up and arms out easier.

    3) Favorite fly sets:
    8 x 50 fly, desc. 1 - 4, desc. 5 - 8 on an interval that gives you enough rest to descend them.
    10 x 100 75 strong free, 25 fly on about 30 seconds rest. Once these are
    easy, then it's 50 strong free, 50 fly.

    I swam the 100 fly and 200 fly in college and always died on the 200. I still die at the end of 100 LCM fly, but 100 yard fly is much, much easier for me. I *like* walls and SDK.

    Best of luck with your 100 fly!

  9. #49
    Very Active Member Paul Smith's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    That's cuz you're you! I don't have your swimming background.

    What kind of yoga are you doing for flexibility? How do you ensure you're swimming with your core?
    Leslie...remember....I didnt start swimming till I was a sophmore in high school so according to Ion I missed most of the best training window as a kid. Even in college I rarely if ever trained "traditional" fly sets...the 200 fly guys ate that stuff up however.

    As for yoga I've practiced various versions since college but stumbled on Anusara about 8 years ago and really connected with its emphasis on proper alignment.

    As for ensuring I'm swimming with my core i guess its just something I do every single stroke...TI refers to it as "mindful" swimming. If at any time in any stroke I feeling any one part of my body (arms, legs) then i know I'm overemphasizing those areas vs. a central, core driven sensation. Typically I use low speed drills and focus on core contraction before and thru each movement....however Jeff Comings, Sam Perry, my wife and many others bascially call BS and say I'm swimming slow, daydreaming and simply not training hard!
    I crack myself up. It is jealousy. It is Boredom. I Did not accomplish enough when I was young, and I hate anybody faster/younger than me.

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    Very Active Member aquaFeisty's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Paul or others, do you do any sort of stretching for fly-specific flexibility other than yoga? I definitely run into the piano wrt recovery. I'm not a flyer, but would like to do an IM where I don't go into the backstroke dead. Although I stretch from the core down religiously, I rarely ever stretch my shoulders. Anytime I've done shoulder stretching in the past, it's led up to an injury.

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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Two more things that have helped me with my fly.

    1) Kicking fly on my back

    When Mark Gill was my coach, he said "real men don't use kickboards" and so I began kicking butterfly on my back. This helped a lot with the amplitude of my kick and body positioning. I think it also helped me focus on kicking from my core.

    2) One-arm fly with the other arm at the side

    I am trying to remember who taught me this but for the last few years, when I do fly drill I go one length with one arm at my side and then switch over on the following length. This helps with timing and my kick, it emphasizes kicking from the core at the right time. My fly leg in my 400IM has gotten a lot better and I feel more relaxed in the water.

    Both of these drills have been helpful to me. I am looking at doing some other ones too for next year.
    Doug Adamavich

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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Adamavich View Post
    Two more things that have helped me with my fly.

    1) Kicking fly on my back

    When Mark Gill was my coach, he said "real men don't use kickboards" and so I began kicking butterfly on my back. This helped a lot with the amplitude of my kick and body positioning. I think it also helped me focus on kicking from my core.

    2) One-arm fly with the other arm at the side

    I am trying to remember who taught me this but for the last few years, when I do fly drill I go one length with one arm at my side and then switch over on the following length. This helps with timing and my kick, it emphasizes kicking from the core at the right time. My fly leg in my 400IM has gotten a lot better and I feel more relaxed in the water.

    Both of these drills have been helpful to me. I am looking at doing some other ones too for next year.
    Thanks Doug. I kick fly a lot on my back too. But I've heard from a couple USA coaches that it's better to kick on the stomach for fly ... I'll try the one arm with the arms down at the side too.

    I did make it through 2 fly sets last week (ande's 20 x 50 and Greg's 10 x 75, except I did some drilling on the latter).

    Aquafeisty: I'm thinking Paul uses yoga to get all flexy for fly.

  13. #53
    Very Active Member Paul Smith's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    Thanks Doug. I kick fly a lot on my back too. But I've heard from a couple USA coaches that it's better to kick on the stomach for fly ... I'll try the one arm with the arms down at the side too.

    I did make it through 2 fly sets last week (ande's 20 x 50 and Greg's 10 x 75, except I did some drilling on the latter).

    Aquafeisty: I'm thinking Paul uses yoga to get all flexy for fly.
    Fort...I agree...dolphin kicking on your back is good to develop dolphin kicking on your back....yes there are some overall benefits in core development and general leg strength but I think SDK on your stomach/side is more race specific.

    And yes...yoga is what I primarily use for flexibility but in all honesty I stretch ALL the time....I do get some funny looks for it in airports, the super market, etc.

    Fort....here's one for you:

    4 x 100's power kick no interval (rest till hear rate drops below 120). Go from a dive, kick as hard and fast as you can SDK (ideally to 15m) then surface and swim very easy free to the wall, execute a fly turn into another 15m SDK, repeat for all 3 turns...when you finish the 100 go right into 10 wall up's...on the last wall up get completely out and go right into 50 single leg lifts (20 left, 20 right, 10 both)....this is done lying on your back holding legs out straight 6" off the ground.
    I crack myself up. It is jealousy. It is Boredom. I Did not accomplish enough when I was young, and I hate anybody faster/younger than me.

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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Smith View Post
    Fort....here's one for you:

    4 x 100's power kick no interval (rest till hear rate drops below 120). Go from a dive, kick as hard and fast as you can SDK (ideally to 15m) then surface and swim very easy free to the wall, execute a fly turn into another 15m SDK, repeat for all 3 turns...when you finish the 100 go right into 10 wall up's...on the last wall up get completely out and go right into 50 single leg lifts (20 left, 20 right, 10 both)....this is done lying on your back holding legs out straight 6" off the ground.
    Since I'm a shameless workout stealer, I tried this today. But I did 6 x 100, since I skipped the drylands. (Didn't want a noodler hopping in my lane.) Not easy! But the set does seem like ideal training for the 100 fly.

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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Smith View Post
    And yes...yoga is what I primarily use for flexibility but in all honesty I stretch ALL the time....I do get some funny looks for it in airports, the super market, etc.
    Mrs Stud is always telling me to not stretch when I do it in public...


    Fort you can try my latest fly set: 3 miles OW, 6 strokes fly. Get out, hydrate, and eat a burger.

    I agree with the slo-mo stuff, I told you before about my kick set, but it's more for motion and feel/building strength. You can work up and down kick on this too.
    I may try the power kick workout soon. When I think of 100 FLY as 4x25 I'm less intimidated. Trick I guess is not to get dialed in to 25/rest/25/rest/25/rest/25.



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    Very Active Member Big AL's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Ok, Fort, this has been my favorite training set for 200 fly since college (where doing 20x200 fly or 10x500 fly was a daily occurence). Maybe this will suffice....

    4 x 150y free AT+:05 (should get 5-10 sec rest going moderate hard)
    4 x 50 fly 1:00 (as fast as you can go (may only be moderate), but hold them all the same pace)
    repeat 3-4 times

    Active recovery fly.... I love this set.

    To groom it for 100 fly, go the 150's with a bit more rest, but the fly must be all fast.
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Fresh advice from last night's workout:

    Work both directions of your dolphin kick.

    My coach advised me to work on both the downward (easy) and upward (hella-tough) parts of my kick. This gave me more consistent power delivery during my kick although I will admit it was a bunch harder. I worked this on the kick portion of an IM set and could really feel it.

    -----end free advice-----
    Doug Adamavich

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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Smith View Post

    4 x 100's power kick no interval (rest till hear rate drops below 120). Go from a dive, kick as hard and fast as you can SDK (ideally to 15m) then surface and swim very easy free to the wall, execute a fly turn into another 15m SDK, repeat for all 3 turns...when you finish the 100 go right into 10 wall up's...on the last wall up get completely out and go right into 50 single leg lifts (20 left, 20 right, 10 both)....this is done lying on your back holding legs out straight 6" off the ground.
    Paul, what if you can't make 15Y/off the wall? Just SDK as far as poss??



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  19. #59
    Very Active Member Paul Smith's Avatar
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by SwimStud View Post
    Paul, what if you can't make 15Y/off the wall? Just SDK as far as poss??
    Correct.....kick as hard, fast and far as you can make...and a good burger is the key to all swimmings nutritional needs.

    Al....no one caes about the 200 fly except Stevenson and Baker and no REAL sprinter does 50's all out on 1:00 (try 3:00)!

    Fort...try it backstroke the next time (then free and IM the next two times) and screw the noodlers...do the dryland and see how hard the set really is!
    I crack myself up. It is jealousy. It is Boredom. I Did not accomplish enough when I was young, and I hate anybody faster/younger than me.

  20. #60
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    Re: Training for the 100 fly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Smith View Post
    Al....no one caes about the 200 fly except Stevenson and Baker and no REAL sprinter does 50's all out on 1:00 (try 3:00)!
    Yeah, I know, I don't do much fly except at meets in the front of a 400IM, so don't have many ideas except for 25s and 50s fast.

    I'm just trying to help out... the 50's are best average, not all out.

    Really though, my favorite fly training is short... 75's kick-drill-swim is another good set (6x, 8x, ?x). Take enough rest to finish these well.

    Kick 25- No board. Focus on returning legs on up kick after the down kick, staying flat. Kick to about the middle and 1 stroke, kick to the other end and 1 more stroke to the wall (could do thirds if this is too difficult).
    Drill 25- About 4 kicks to 1 stroke (can do some side breathing like Paul).
    Swim 25- Kind of a build 25.

    Yes, fast SDK is good here. Accelerate the kick into the stroke.
    <---- optical illusion, if you look at the puppy long enough... he begins to levitate.

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