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Thread: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretation

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    Administrator matysekj's Avatar
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    June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretation

    The official U.S. Masters Swimming interpretation of the swimwear rule as proposed by the rules committee and approved by the executive committee is now available here.
    I can't remember a life before Google.
    Fortunately, I can Google it.

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    Very Active Member thewookiee's Avatar
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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    So, according to USMS, the B70, AquaZone Renegade, Jaked01 are legal for right now?

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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    The USMS statement referred to above is the first comprehensive, logical and clear statement of what will be accepted by our organization. The B70 is clearly legal until it has been ruled otherwise by FINA and subsequently acted upon by USMS. That means on or about 6/19 by my reading of the statement. I'm planning to wear mine this weekend and no one should feel ashamed about wearing theirs. After all, they were in abundance in both the USAS Olympic Trials last summer, in the Olympics themselves and, more recently, in the Charlotte Ultraswim.

    FINA has made a complete mess out of this, in my view. Their statement was thoughtlessly prepared and likely not even read beforehand by a coach or swimmer. They owe it to their swim federations to produce a sensible document fully describing what they allow and don't allow AND filling in holes that may seem obvious to them but are not not necessarily to us (such as allowing briefs).

    Whether or not my B70 is illegal in the future is not relevant to my points above. If it is, and USMS accepts the ruling, I'll stop wearing it.

    USA Swimming, in my view, reacted hastily and almost with as much thought as FINA. Bravo to USMS for thinking this through carefully.
    Mel Dyck
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    Very Active Member Paul Smith's Avatar
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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    Quote Originally Posted by meldyck View Post
    The USMS statement referred to above is the first comprehensive, logical and clear statement of what will be accepted by our organization. The B70 is clearly legal until it has been ruled otherwise by FINA and subsequently acted upon by USMS.
    I disagree....why would USMS publish this statement and use the LZR & TYR suits as examples when 99% of masters are competing in a Blue 70...and that is the suit everyone has a question about? And as I read it the B70 is not listed as "approved" by FINA and although it may be retested that does not currently make it "legal".
    I crack myself up. It is jealousy. It is Boredom. I Did not accomplish enough when I was young, and I hate anybody faster/younger than me.

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    Very Active Member Redbird Alum's Avatar
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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    Quote Originally Posted by meldyck View Post
    ...

    FINA has made a complete mess out of this, in my view...

    USA Swimming, in my view, reacted hastily and almost with as much thought as FINA...
    I agree with Paul on his point, but these gems should not be lost.
    The whole thing is a big cluster.

    No-one is enjoying this at the competition end of this discussion.


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    Very Active Member pwb's Avatar
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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    This is clearer, but not crystal clear. I feel for all of those folks out there looking to compete for themselves and for national/global recognition this summer in LCM. I'm pretty much training through the summer with the exception of a meet on June 21st where I probably wasn't going to wear a tech suit and by which time FINA might have ruled again. I'm glad that I probably won't compete again this summer, except the possibility of one more meet.

    I just hope that this gets resolved before the SCM season and before my FSPro wears out.

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    Very Active Member chaos's Avatar
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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    its the end of the world

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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    I shall burn my suit and salt the ground where the ashes fall.

    How can I ever swim fast again?

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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Smith View Post
    I disagree....why would USMS publish this statement and use the LZR & TYR suits as examples when 99% of masters are competing in a Blue 70...and that is the suit everyone has a question about? And as I read it the B70 is not listed as "approved" by FINA and although it may be retested that does not currently make it "legal".
    Paul,

    I don't understand your problem. Under article 4 of the Q & A section of the ruling, there is the following answer:

    "That suit you bought after September 30, 2007, is legal at this moment, but it could be reconsidered by the USMS Rules Committee after the next FINA-approved swimsuit list is published."

    What isn't clear about that? I bought my B70 after September 30, 2007 and, by the Q & A answer excerpted above, it is "legal at this moment."

    Why the illustrations using the LZR and Tyr Tracer were chosen isn't really so relevant at this point. USMS is just reaffirming it's policy, set out by Rob Copeland in his memo last month, that until the full list is known and until the retesting is done USMS shouldn't jump to a hasty conclusion that may just have to be backtracked upon anyway.
    Mel Dyck
    • Certified Level 2 ASCA Coach
    • No longer a member of ASCA due to their meddling in the suit situation

    Life is a joke and, if you are not laughing, you probably don't get it

  10. #10
    Very Active Member Paul Smith's Avatar
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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    Mel, here's is the quote:

    #1. USMS SWIMWEAR INTERPRETATION
    FINA approval or rejection of new swimsuits introduced after September 30, 2007, will be accepted by U.S. Masters Swimming for USMS sanctioned and recognized competition.

    Here is the list of approved suits:
    The FINA Commission in charge of the swimwear approval, formed by representatives of the FINA Executive, FINA Technical Swimming Committee, FINA Coaches Commission, FINA Athletes Commission, and FINA Legal Councillor had a meeting on May 18, 2009 in Lausanne (SUI) and after reviewing 348 swimsuits from 21 manufacturers forwarded its proposal to the FINA Executive, who decided or approved the following swimsuits models (this list is valid until December 31, 2009):
    (last update : 25.05.2009)

    Adidas TechfitPowerweb S8140602BJ B85779 full
    TechfitPowerweb S8140603BJ B85777SL full
    TechfitPowerweb S8140609BJ B85762 full - knee
    TechfitPowerweb S8140607BJ B85768 pants - long
    TechfitPowerweb S8140606BJ B85771 pants - short
    Agon Sport L.L.C. 2009 full - knee
    2009 pants - long
    2009 pants - short
    Akron SRL Halifax Allison full
    Halifax Buster full
    Halifax Ark pants - long
    Arena Italia S.p.A. Powerskin 2512450 full
    Powerskin 2512850 full
    Powerskin 2512550 full
    Powerskin 2710650 pants - long
    Powerskin 2906850 classic
    Powerskin 2710550 pants-short
    Powerskin R-Evolution 2522850 full
    Powerskin R-Evolution 2522750 full
    Powerskin R-Evolution 2522650 full
    Powerskin R-Evolution 2786650 full - knee
    Powerskin R-Evolution 2522550 full - knee
    Powerskin R-Evolution 2522450 full - knee
    Powerskin R-Evolution 2786250 pants- long
    Powerskin R-Evolution 2786550 pants-short
    Powerskin R-evolution + 2525650 full
    Powerskin R-evolution + 2525450 full
    Powerskin R-evolution + 2525350 full
    Powerskin R-evolution + 2525750 full - knee
    Powerskin R-evolution + 2525550 full - knee
    Powerskin R-evolution + 2790050 pants - long
    Powerskin X-treme 2513850 full
    Powerskin X-treme 2514350 full
    Powerskin X-treme 2513950 full
    Powerskin X-treme 2513750 full - knee
    Powerskin X-treme 2514450 full - knee
    Powerskin X-treme 2514250 full - knee
    Powerskin X-treme 2731750 pants - long
    Powerskin X-treme 2925450 classic
    Powerskin X-treme 2737650 pants-short
    Asics Corporation TIL ALS503 full
    TIL ALS505 full
    TIL AMA503 pants - long
    TIL AMA502 pants - short
    TIL ALS502 pants - short
    TIL ALS500 classic
    TIL ALS504 classic
    TIL AMA501 classic
    TIL ALS501 classic
    TIL - Cloth AMX964-4 full
    TIL - Cloth ALX964-5 full
    TIL - Cloth ALX964-6 full
    TIL - Cloth AMX964-3 pants - long
    TIL - Functional Layered System AMA515 full
    TIL - Functional Layered System ALS515 full
    TIL - Functional Layered System AMA516 pants - long
    TIL - Functional Layered System AMA511 inner tights
    TIL - Functional Layered System ALS511 inner tights
    TIL - Functional Layered System AMA510 inner top
    TIL - Functional Layered System ALS510 inner top
    TIL + AMX1087 full
    TIL + AMX1087-2 full
    TIL + AMX1087 full
    TIL + AMX1098 full
    TIL + AMX1086 full
    TIL + AMX1085 full
    TIL + ALX1085-2 full
    TIL + ALX1085 full
    TIL + ALX1086 full
    TIL + ALX1098 full
    TIL + AMX1088 pants - long
    TIL + AMX1088-2 pants - long
    TIL + AMX1088 pants - long
    TIL + AMX1083 classic
    TIL + ALX1083 classic
    Descente LTD III jan09 full
    III jan09 full
    III jan09 full
    III jan09 full - knee
    III jan09 pants - long
    III jan09 pants - short
    IV jan09 full
    IV jan09 full
    IV jan09 full
    IV jan09 full - knee
    IV jan09 pants - long
    IV jan09 pants - short
    I mar09 full
    I mar09 pants - long
    I mar09 full
    I mar09 full
    I mar09 classic
    I mar09 full - knee
    I mar09 classic
    I mar09 pants - short
    III mar09 full
    III mar09 full
    III mar09 full
    III mar09 full - knee
    III mar09 pants - long
    III mar09 pants - short
    III mar09 classic
    Diana Sport Submarine Shinning Arrow 232M SA full
    Submarine Shinning Arrow 250W SA full
    Submarine Shinning Arrow 251W SA full
    Submarine Shinning Arrow 233M SA full - knee
    Submarine Shinning Arrow 253W SA full - knee
    Submarine Shinning Arrow 230M SA pants - long
    Submarine Thermo Fusion 202M full
    Submarine Thermo Fusion 210W full
    Submarine Thermo Fusion 221W full
    Submarine Thermo Fusion 203M full - knee
    Submarine Thermo Fusion 213W full - knee
    Submarine Thermo Fusion 200M pants - long
    Submarine Thermo Fusion 201M pants - short
    Submarine Thermo Fusion 219W classic
    Finis Inc. Amphibian pants - long
    Amphibian ATS8-LTM28 pants - long
    Amphibian ATS8-JM28 pants - short
    Amphibian Long John ATS8-LJM32 full
    Amphibian Long John ATS8-LJF30 full
    Amphibian Short John ATS8-SJM31 full - knee
    Amphibian Short John ATS8-SJF30 full - knee
    Hydrospeed 2 Brief 1.10.131.101.28 classic
    Hydrospeed 2 Clipback 1.10.024.101.28 classic
    Hydrospeed 2 Jammer 1.10.132.101.28 pants - short
    Hydrospeed 2 Race John 1.10.025.101.28 full - knee
    Jaked SRL J03 full
    J03 pants - long
    Kiwami Kameleon full - knee
    Mizuno Corporation Accel Suits full
    Accel Suits pants - long
    SST 85RB-100 full
    SST 85RB-101 full
    SST 85OB-100 full
    SST 85OB-110
    SST 85OB-111 full
    SST 85RB-10009 full
    SST 85RD-100 pants - short
    SST 85RC-100 pants - long
    Water Gene 85RB-850 full
    Water Gene 85OB-850 full
    Water Gene 85OB-851 full
    Water Gene 85OC-850 full - knee
    Water Gene 85OD-850 pants - long
    Water Gene 85RC-850
    Water Gene 85RD-850
    Orca RS1 men
    full - knee
    RS1 women
    full - knee
    Rocket Science Sports Rocket Light classic
    Rocket Light
    Rocket Sprinter
    Rocket Sprinter
    Rocket Trainer classic
    Rocket Trainer
    Rocket 2skin
    full
    Sailfish GmbH Sailfish furious full - knee
    Sailfish furious long full
    Speedo FastskinXT (Flying Fish) 8-05887 full
    FastskinXT (Flying Fish) 8-05889 full
    FastskinXT (Flying Fish) 8-05892 classic
    FastskinXT (Flying Fish) 8-05891 pants - short
    FastskinXT (Flying Fish) 8-05890 pants - long
    FastskinXT (Flying Fish) 8-05886 full
    FastskinXT (Flying Fish) 8-05885 full - knee
    FastskinXT (Flying Fish) 8-05888 classic
    LZR Racer (Male BNA)
    8-018030001
    full

    LZR Racer (Legskin)
    8-018040001 pants - long

    LZR Racer (Jammer)
    8-018050001 pants - short

    LZR Racer Pro Body Skin No Arms full
    LZR Racer Pro Body Skin No Arms full
    LZR Racer Pro Jammer pants - short
    LZR Racer Pro Leg Skin pants - long
    LZR Racer Pro Record Breaker classic
    LZR Racer Pro Record Breaker Body full
    LZR Racer Pro Record Breaker Knee Skin full - knee
    Japanese LZR Hybrid SPE015 full
    Japanese LZR Hybrid SPE015 full
    Japanese LZR Hybrid SPE015 full - knee
    Japanese LZR Hybrid SPE015 pants - long
    Japanese LZR Hybrid SPE015 pants-short
    Fastskin Pro 8 008093218 pants - short
    Fastskin Pro 8 008133218 full
    Fastskin Pro 8 008153218 classic
    Fastskin Pro 8 008143218 full - knee
    Fastskin Pro 8 008053218 full
    Aquablade 8 205157031 classic
    Aquablade 10 072 7031 classic
    Aquablade 8 101077031 pants - short
    Fastskin 8 100090001 pants - short
    Fastskin 8 100080001 pants - long
    Fastskin 8 202230001 full - knee
    Sports Hig F-09 full
    M-12 pants- long
    M-01A pants- long
    M-10 pants- long
    M-08 pants- long
    Tyr Sports Inc. Tracer Light
    A12 full
    Tracer Rise
    A10
    full

    A7
    full
    Yamamotohokosyo Corporation YH-M-F pants - long
    YH-M-F2 pants - long


    The LZR & TYR suits are approved and none of the Blue 70's are. Done deal.

    If the higher up's at USMS want to stop this debate they can do it with one simple statement:
    " Blue 70 suits are approved by USMS until further notice"
    I crack myself up. It is jealousy. It is Boredom. I Did not accomplish enough when I was young, and I hate anybody faster/younger than me.

  11. #11
    Very Active Member jim thornton's Avatar
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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    I must agree with Paul, if indeed I understand the point Paul is making.

    I think that because of B70's sponsorship arrangement, USMS is dragging its feet on acknowledging what should have been obvious months ago: the B70 should never have been a legal pool suit in the first place. It's basically a wet suit that somehow managed to sneak in under the radar.

    By allowing the B70 to remain in this weird limbo land, where USMS allows it but FINA almost certainly does not, it's going to let people in regions of the country that have early LCM meets squeak in one or two more meets before the inevitable happens.

    I don't think this is fair myself, but as the great former president, Jimmy Carter, once put it, "Life isn't fair."

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    Bigger than a breadbox mattson's Avatar
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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    Point #6 is confusing me.
    This restriction applies to all types..., but is not intended to apply to athletic supporters or modesty type wear (a single pair of "briefs"...

    This would seem to allow wearing two old style (men's) suits. But the Interpretation of Article 102.14 seems to flatly deny that. At the IL state meet, people were told one and only one suit (of any kind), partly to keep the ruling simple.

  13. #13
    Mswimming
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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    Since they will probably be illegal by june 19th anyone have a B70 suit they are willing to sell cheap?

    I'm swimming the long course meet in Mission Viejo this weekend. I think I'm a size 28 or 30. (6'2" 195lbs). Send me a PM


    My as well see what all the fuss is about before they can no longer be used.

  14. #14
    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    Quote Originally Posted by jim thornton View Post
    I think that because of B70's sponsorship arrangement, USMS is dragging its feet on acknowledging what should have been obvious months ago: the B70 should never have been a legal pool suit in the first place. It's basically a wet suit that somehow managed to sneak in under the radar.
    But you've missed a key point. The FINA list is BS because there are other wetsuit type suits that have been approved. Or other partial ones like the LZR. The exclusion of B70 appears ridiculous and biased given that. Also the air trapping rationale seems quite flawed as it is not subject to quantitative analysis.

    I think it's lamentable, though, that a suit that is actually durable, usable, doesn't rip every nanosecond and promotes racing throughout the season has been "temporarily unapproved" -- I guess I can't say "banned" with any real accuracy. (See David Guthrie's comments from floswimming on my blog. I agree.)

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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    I read the USMS Rule Interpetation as maintaining the status quo until the re-testing is completed. They have chosen not to follow the USA Swimming interpetation. I believe that currently the Blue70 is legal as it is not banned specifically AND being re-tested.
    That's what I believe is the meaning of the plain language of the first 3 or 4 sentences of the interpetation.
    The interpetation does not mention the B70 specifically and certainly does not say specifically that Blue70 is illegal in USMS competitions.
    I believe that if Blue70 is available to all Masters swimmers at a reasonable price we will have a level playing field.
    Why change the rules half way through the season?
    Do you guys really want to buy 2 LZR's a year?
    Last edited by rodent; June 3rd, 2009 at 03:54 PM. Reason: typo

  16. #16
    Love SWIMMING! Ahelee Sue Osborn's Avatar
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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    (See David Guthrie's comments from floswimming on my blog. I agree.)
    Fort -

    David's super excellent piece is on Swimming World Magazine's site:

    Record Evolution: It May Not All Be In the Suit -- June 3, 2009

    Guest editorial by David Guthrie

    http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com...n%20the%20Suit

  17. #17
    Here to keep it real JimRude's Avatar
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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    But you've missed a key point. The FINA list is BS because there are other wetsuit type suits that have been approved. Or other partial ones like the LZR. The exclusion of B70 appears ridiculous and biased given that. Also the air trapping rationale seems quite flawed as it is not subject to quantitative analysis.

    I think it's lamentable, though, that a suit that is actually durable, usable, doesn't rip every nanosecond and promotes racing throughout the season has been "temporarily unapproved" -- I guess I can't say "banned" with any real accuracy. (See David Guthrie's comments from floswimming on my blog. I agree.)
    Word. There are several suits on the FINA approved list that are not, to my eye, at all different from the Blue Seventy.

    My expectation is that the B70, AquaZone, etc will be approved in the next few weeks, perhaps with some minor modifications required for existing suits (see: nonsense about holes to permit "trapped air" to escape). They will therefore be permitted at WC's, etc. Then, late in the year, FINA will announce new restrictions, such as full permeability, no neoprene coating etc, long after the realistic deadline has passed for all but Speedo to have a suit ready for 2010 ...

    I agree with much if not all of what the esteemed Mr. Guthrie wrote, including the observations about drag versus buoyancy. YMMV.
    This bush league psyche-out stuff. Laughable, man - ha ha!

  18. #18
    Very Active Member chaos's Avatar
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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    (See David Guthrie's comments from floswimming on my blog. I agree.)
    theres only one way to know what the effects of tech suits are for each individual swimmer..... but many are unwilling to go there.

  19. #19
    Very Active Member SwimRobin's Avatar
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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Smith View Post
    I disagree....why would USMS publish this statement and use the LZR & TYR suits as examples when 99% of masters are competing in a Blue 70...and that is the suit everyone has a question about? And as I read it the B70 is not listed as "approved" by FINA and although it may be retested that does not currently make it "legal".
    Paul, this is not true. 99% of Masters are NOT competing in a Blue 70. I would have to say that there are a whole lot of us that are wearing the FSII, Tyr Aquashift and Tyr Aquapel. I have purposefully refrained from purchasing a Blue 70 because of all of the controversy and questions of it being legal. Many have not purchased it because of the cost. I personally swim in a Tyr Aquapel Short John, and I have no idea if it is even legal now. It was not submitted by Tyr to FINA for approval (because it has been discontinued, no doubt). But if you look around, you see a whole lot of these older model tech suits at Masters swim meets. We are all questioning if our suits are going to be legal.
    The older I get, the faster I was.

  20. #20
    CreamPuff
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    Re: June 1 U.S. Masters Swimming Swimsuit Rule Interpretatio

    Quote Originally Posted by chaos View Post
    theres only one way to know what the effects of tech suits are for each individual swimmer..... but many are unwilling to go there.
    I went there. It's ugly.

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