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Thread: Walls at Indy LC Nationals

  1. #1
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    Walls at Indy LC Nationals

    I don't believe that I have seen this mentioned, but several people have asked me this. Will the walls at Indy LC Nationals be FINA-style flat walls or regular gutter style?

    Backstrokers are particularly anxious about this regarding the start, but other strokes are affected at the turns.

    Mary
    Mary Pohlmann

  2. #2
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    Re: Walls at Indy LC Nationals

    With previous events at IUPUI, I believe the have "flat walls" that comply with the FINA standards - like the ones what were installed at Stanford for the FINA Masters Worlds.

    Maybe we can get the meet directors or Indy locals to confirm.

    Yes, it does make a difference with backstroke starts, but also with breaststroke and butterfly turns.

    See you in Indy,

    Anthony Thompson, MOVY Masters

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    Re: Walls at Indy LC Nationals

    I just received this reply from Mel Goldstein regarding my question of whether there would be FINA flat walls at USMS Nationals at IUPUI.

    "You betcha!....We will follow all of the Rules unlike other facilities who host LC meets..

    Mel"

    Better practice those breast and fly turns with no grabbing the gutter and the backstroke starts without being able to grip the gutter.

    Mary
    Mary Pohlmann

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    Very Active Member jonblank's Avatar
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    Re: Walls at Indy LC Nationals

    While I used to despise flat wall turns, I have learned to accept them. A benefit for breast and fly turns is that one has less incentive to stay on the walls...
    "What, Me Worry"? - Alfred E. Neuman

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    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: Walls at Indy LC Nationals

    I have a question about backstroke starts that is relevant to the "flat walls," which I don't use often. The rule for backstroke starts is (USMS 101.1.2B):

    "The swimmers shall line up in the water facing the starting end with both hands placed on the gutter or on the starting grips. Standing in or on the gutter, placing the toes above the lip of the gutter or bending the toes over the lip of the gutter before or after the start is prohibited."

    Back in the "old days" when I was swimming, the foot had to be completely submerged. That no longer seems to be the case, correct? It sounds like, as long as the toes aren't curled over a gutter (non-existent with flat walls), you are okay.

    I am trying to confirm this because just this summer at a masters meet, I heard a starter tell a swimmer that the foot had to be completely submerged.

  6. #6
    Very Active Member aquaFeisty's Avatar
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    Re: Walls at Indy LC Nationals

    I don't know why it would make a difference to backstrokers whether or not the walls are flat. You can't curl your toes on a gutter anyhow.

    As for the toes under the water, I *thought* that your toes could be either above or below the water as long as you were NOT curled over the gutter or lip. At one point in time perhaps you had to have your feet submerged completely but not anymore. Of course, I'm not a backstroker so maybe I'm totally wrong on this topic (but swimming *is* discussed in our house an awful lot...)

    Re: breast and fly turns, well duh... don't swim more than a 50 and it's not a problem!!!

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    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: Walls at Indy LC Nationals

    Quote Originally Posted by aquaFeisty View Post
    I don't know why it would make a difference to backstrokers whether or not the walls are flat. You can't curl your toes on a gutter anyhow.
    Because with the flat walls -- ie, with no gutters -- you can have your feet higher on the wall. The placement of most gutters means that effectively your feet have to be submerged. So when they are gone, so is that restriction.

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    Very Active Member barryf's Avatar
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    Re: Walls at Indy LC Nationals

    The Host has elected not to use the Flat Wall finish and will attach the touch pads to the gutters instead at both ends of the pool.

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    Re: Walls at Indy LC Nationals

    Why the change in tune from "you betcha, we follow the rules" when asked if flat walls would be used?

    First the starting time change. Now the wall change. What else is being waffled around?

    Mary
    Mary Pohlmann

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    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: Walls at Indy LC Nationals

    Quote Originally Posted by MPohlmann View Post
    First the starting time change. Now the wall change. What else is being waffled around?
    The meet has been moved to Peoria.

  11. #11
    Very Active Member aquaFeisty's Avatar
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    Re: Walls at Indy LC Nationals

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    Because with the flat walls -- ie, with no gutters -- you can have your feet higher on the wall. The placement of most gutters means that effectively your feet have to be submerged. So when they are gone, so is that restriction.


    Aha! Thank you, Chris. I didn't even think of that.

    Oh, and Peoria works for me... shorter drive!

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    Re: Walls at Indy LC Nationals

    The "high flat wall" rule is a FINA rule not a USMS rule. Having the touchpads attached to the gutters at long course meets is compliant with USMS rules.

    The statement that the feet, including the toes, must be placed under the surface of the water was repealed by FINA, USA-S, and USMS. If a meet happens to have the high flat walls, it is easy to place the toes above the surface of the water for the start. However, if the gutter is accessible (no high flat wall as for FINA meets), the swimmer is not allowed to have the toes above the lip of the gutter and is not allowed to bend the toes over the lip of the gutter before or after the start (101.1.2B, pages 1-2 of the 2009 USMS Rule Book).

    I highly encourage everyone to read the rule book. Needless to say, I find it fascinating reading. The USMS Rule Book can be downloaded from the USMS website.

    Kathy Casey, Chair
    USMS Rules Committee
    Kathy Casey

  13. #13
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: Walls at Indy LC Nationals

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathy Casey View Post
    The "high flat wall" rule is a FINA rule not a USMS rule. Having the touchpads attached to the gutters at long course meets is compliant with USMS rules.

    The statement that the feet, including the toes, must be placed under the surface of the water was repealed by FINA, USA-S, and USMS. If a meet happens to have the high flat walls, it is easy to place the toes above the surface of the water for the start. However, if the gutter is accessible (no high flat wall as for FINA meets), the swimmer is not allowed to have the toes above the lip of the gutter and is not allowed to bend the toes over the lip of the gutter before or after the start (101.1.2B, pages 1-2 of the 2009 USMS Rule Book).

    I highly encourage everyone to read the rule book. Needless to say, I find it fascinating reading. The USMS Rule Book can be downloaded from the USMS website.
    .
    Kathy Casey, Chair
    USMS Rules Committee
    If this is a FINA rule why don't we have to follow it to get WRs etc recognized?This question is also related to the "do we have to follow FINA swimsuit rules"question
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

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    Re: Walls at Indy LC Nationals

    The high flat wall is not a requirement for FINA Masters World records.

    Regarding the FINA swimsuit rules, the FINA Executive Director and one of the FINA Masters Technical Commission members said those were not meant for Masters. However, we are waiting to hear an official statement from the FINA Masters Technical Committee as a whole about how these swimwear rules impact Masters.
    Kathy Casey

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