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Thread: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

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    Active Member John C Smith's Avatar
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    Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    If the full body rubber suits do end up getting banned, why should USMS follow their lead on this issue? (i.e. assuming the suits would continue to be manufactured).

    Isn't Masters mostly for each individual to pursue what they want and the level they want out of the sport?

    If the full body suit is preferred by many USMS participants, why not satisfy the base by keeping it available?

    What's really the point of forcing old USMS swimmers out of their girdles if FINA bans them?


    John Smith
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    Very Active Member jim clemmons's Avatar
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    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by John C Smith View Post
    If the full body rubber suits do end up getting banned, why should USMS follow their lead on this issue? (i.e. assuming the suits would continue to be manufactured).

    Isn't Masters mostly for each individual to pursue what they want and the level they want out of the sport?

    If the full body suit is preferred by many USMS participants, why not satisfy the base by keeping it available?

    What's really the point of forcing old USMS swimmers out of their girdles if FINA bans them?


    John Smith
    Should have had a poll for this one, John.

    I agree. We should be left to our own "devices". I think USMS could come to terms with some guidelines that would allow existing technology. And just stop it at this point if that's desired by the majority. I think the few folks wanting to go back in time are few and far between.
    Jim

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    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    I am not sure if John Smith is kidding or serious, but I was thinking along the same lines. Why should Masters swimmers not continue to use the tech suits? It might make Masters competitions stand out and be more attractive to younger swimmers who think the suits will help them swim faster. So, we might get more young elite competitors who want to compete in a Masters meet where they can use a tech suit. Fine with me.

    Then there is the aesthetic element. We are older. Our bodies sag more. We are simply not the perfectly sculpted folks we see racing at the Olympics (sure, there are exceptions but...). Frankly, I think that people over 40 look significantly better in the full body suits. They look great AND help us swim more efficiently. We are not going to set Olympic records, so who cares if we decide to continue allowing the tech suits? I would be interested to see how a Jaked or an X-Glide feels in the water. It's fun. Masters is supposed to be fun.

    There has been so much posturing in Rome; folks taking everything WAY too seriously and hypocritically (Bowman the prime example), but Masters do what we do because we love swimming, racing, and having fun; the tech suits ARE fun and they make us look and feel good. I say keep them.

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    Very Active Member jim clemmons's Avatar
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    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by gshaw View Post
    I am not sure if John Smith is kidding or serious, but I was thinking along the same lines. Why should Masters swimmers not continue to use the tech suits?
    Yes, I wasn't quite sure if he was being serious either. The "rubber suits" and "girdles" comments made me pause for a moment but I decided to consider the questions literally.

    I have faith, however, in the girdle statement. I'd consider that to be a mandatory requirement for Masters.
    Jim

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    Very Active Member jim thornton's Avatar
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    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    I am sure.

    He was being snide.

    --a girdle enthusiast

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    Active Member hornHead's Avatar
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    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    Maybe we should take a page from the Bowman play book and refuse to swim internationally if FINA imposes their will on Masters. There was a time when Masters was not under FINA control, so maybe we should turn the clock back to BF (Before FINA).

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    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    Yes, USMS should follow suit [pun intended].

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    Very Active Member elise526's Avatar
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    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by knelson View Post
    Yes, USMS should follow suit [pun intended].
    I agree.

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    Very Active Member Muppet's Avatar
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    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    Would there really be much impact if USMS said F-u to Fina and permitted bodysuits? The worst they can do is tell us that our swims won't count for Fina Top Ten - which affects a very small fraction of our membership.
    man up, buttercup!

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    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    I'm not sure world records would count wither, would they?

    For me it's a money issue, I can't justify $500 for a suit. So I hope we go with FINA's new rule, would level the pool for me.


    But I'm biased and just looking out for myself!

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    Very Active Member scyfreestyler's Avatar
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    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muppet View Post
    Would there really be much impact if USMS said F-u to Fina and permitted bodysuits? The worst they can do is tell us that our swims won't count for Fina Top Ten - which affects a very small fraction of our membership.
    IMHO, it's not so much what FINA would do to us, it's what we would be doing to ourselves.

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    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by knelson View Post
    Yes, USMS should follow suit [pun intended].
    USMS should follow FINA's lead and change the rules every few days.

    I agree with Mr. Positive above that we should ignore FINA, even though Mr. Positive is probably poking fun at us again.
    Mel Dyck
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    Very Active Member thewookiee's Avatar
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    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by knelson View Post
    Yes, USMS should follow suit [pun intended].
    USMS should follow what is the best interest of it's membership, not FINA. If the majority want to follow FINA rules(whatever they are that day) fine. If the majority would like for USMS to allow tech suits, then that is what should be done.

  14. #14
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    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    USMS should follow FINA's rulings on suits and PEDs.

    If not, when told of a swim time, my first question will be, "What suit did you wear and who gave you your injection?"

    Tech suits are a bane to swimming legitimacy.

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    Wannabe Middle D. Swimmer qbrain's Avatar
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    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    I am for whatever keeps the suit controversy the primary topic for new threads. It would absolutely SUCK if we started using the swimming forums to discuss swimming again.

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    Very Active Member Leonard Jansen's Avatar
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    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    Go with FINA's rules, assuming that they ever actually get around to defining any that last more than 5 minutes.

    Just a thought experiment: Suppose that USMS goes its own way and allows tech suits while FINA/USS does not. Suppose MASTER swimmer X swims a time in a USMS certified/sanctioned meet that qualifies her for a race (USS nationals, trials, whatever) that is held under FINA rules. Furthermore, X was in a FINA-LEGAL suit. Question: Has X qualified for the FINA rules meet?

    On the face of it, the answer seems to be "yes." However:
    1) Will there be a mechanism in place to certify that X was in a FINA legal suit?
    2) Given that there is a mechanism, what burden does this place on the meet directors?
    3) Suppose that in X's heat, some of the competitors were wearing FINA-ILLEGAL suits. Does this potentially constitute an illegal pacing situation. e.g. If someone jogs next to a racewalker, that is illegal pacing since they are not conforming to racewalking rules.

    Finally, and not related to the above: If FINA/USS bans tech suits and masters does not, will this be a large enough base for suit manufacturers to continue making tech suits?

    -LBJ
    "Excitable boy" they all said.

  17. #17

    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    Without a doubt FINA is just staggering around with this issue right now. Jammers only for men is ridiculous. I do not want to be put in a place where I have to loose weight just to look reasonable. The first thing that my wife will suggest is I stop drinking wine (Mel what do say about that-it would be a disaster}. On a very personal "male" level I think the women look awesome in their Jaked's and Arena suits and "us boys" have got to demand that they be allowed at our master's meets. You know there is a little more going on in Rome then just the suits I think it is the confluence of a lot of things, better training, tremendous monmentum which stokes everyone, beautiful pool and surroundings, great weather on and on. Let me, at least, keep my B70 from neck to knees. Hey here is a novel idea for FINA lets let the swimmers decide. Phelps can act all distressed about the new suits (what does he make a year from Speedo??)

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    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard Jansen View Post
    Finally, and not related to the above: If FINA/USS bans tech suits and masters does not, will this be a large enough base for suit manufacturers to continue making tech suits?

    -LBJ
    Leonard,

    my personal observation is that USMS members were WELL ahead of the rest of swimming in the use of the faster suits. I first used the Aquablade and Victor in the summer of 1999, when almost no one at the college or high school level was using them in meets that I attended. I can remember talking to one college swim coach who told me that there were no real advantages in terms of physically measurable quantities but that everything was purely psychological. He saw no reason to try to fool his swimmers into using an uncomfortable suit.

    So, the answer to your question above, form my experience, is that at least one manufacturer (Victor = Jerry Greenberg) was willing to start production for the master's community. I don't know what Speedo's motivation was.
    Mel Dyck
    • Certified Level 2 ASCA Coach

  19. #19
    Active Member John C Smith's Avatar
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    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by meldyck View Post
    USMS should follow FINA's lead and change the rules every few days.

    I agree with Mr. Positive above that we should ignore FINA, even though Mr. Positive is probably poking fun at us again.
    Truth be told "meldyck", I would love to erase the full body rubber suit chapter entirely from the history of the sport. I started swimming again after my surgery about 3 weeks ago. I plan on showing up in my first masters meet in November in either a classic small speedo suit or jammers from now on. I've had enough. I tried a rubber suit in Austin in 2008 when they were new (for curiosity and a joke against Mr. Killeen). The technical advantages are quite obvious. I will always be of the same opinion there is a reason aluminum bats are not allowed in professional baseball. But I really don't care if other people wear one in the lane next to me. It's just masters swimming. Handicaps are fine and just not an issue.

    But getting back to my questions....... what are the rammifications of ignoring FINA on this issue? Other than refusing to allow World records set in the rubber suits, what can they do to force USMS to comply or otherwise retaliate?

    I wonder if other country's masters swimmers want to leave them as an option or not.


    John Smith
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    Very Active Member Redbird Alum's Avatar
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    Re: Should USMS follow "suit" ?

    Leonard makes a good point about administrative issues that will result from different governing bodies taking different stances.

    If USMS wants the tech suits, USMS needs to speak with one voice to convince FINA and USS that they are legit, but these forums suggest that even within USMS there is no common ground on the issue. The suit manufacturers undoubtedly have lobbied their positions already (with funding or the lack thereof, I'm sure).

    IMHO, USMS governing body would be remiss to ignore the regulations of the international and USS governing bodies.


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