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Thread: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

  1. #1
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    Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    "The short version is men and women get the same suits, shoulder to knee in textile."

    So this proposal makes every single full body suit and legskin suit illegal. What exactly is the difference to allowing the suit to go to the ankle ???

    Keep it textile, but PLEASE use some common sense and allow the 1000s of pre LZR / Blue 70 suits to still be used.

    The proposal is already different from USS / FINA with the zipper - I would like just ONE good reason to "cut us off at the knees" and make us get new suits.

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    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    I agree; it's just plain stupid.

    They have given a reason though (not opining on whether it's "good"). Less material = less performance enhancement.

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    Very Active Member gull's Avatar
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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    Quote Originally Posted by ehoch View Post
    The proposal is already different from USS / FINA with the zipper - I would like just ONE good reason to "cut us off at the knees" and make us get new suits.
    Two comments:

    1). We don't know if FINA will approve this (assuming, of course, that they even care what Masters swimming does).

    2). We don't know if anyone will still be manufacturing kneeskins, as there has been significant shrinkage (sorry, Geek) in the market.

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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    We don't know if anyone will still be manufacturing kneeskins, as there has been significant shrinkage (sorry, Geek) in the market.
    Exactly - why submit a recommendation for suits few people own and nobody will be able to buy ?????

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    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    Is the person who started this thread REALLY the same as the person who started another one a few months ago exhorting every masters swimmer to give up the tech suits voluntarily?

    The market for zippered kneeskins under the USMS proposal and zippered full-bodies under your proposal is the exact same size: ie, restricted to masters only. What makes you think the full body suits will be manufactured more readily? Higher profit margins?

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    Very Active Member gull's Avatar
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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    The market for zippered kneeskins under the USMS proposal and zippered full-bodies under your proposal is the exact same size: ie, restricted to masters only. What makes you think the full body suits will be manufactured more readily? Higher profit margins?
    The point is that many of us already own legskins and/or full body suits (FSI, FSII, FS Pro) that we will not be able wear.

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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    Calf coverage is ruining our sport!

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    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    Quote Originally Posted by gull View Post
    The point is that many of us already own legskins and/or full body suits (FSI, FSII, FS Pro) that we will not be able wear.
    Yes, I do realize that. I am in the same boat, currently owning legskins that may soon be illegal and a body suit that is already illegal (an Xterra that I wore for exactly two races). A complete ban would not have left you better off.

    Pro-suits gave up rubber and calves. Anti-tech gave up torso and zippers. No one got exactly what they want. Life sucks and then you die.

    Or maybe you can just shrug your shoulders and enjoy the sport for what it is. In your avatar, you look dashing in your jammers; I bet you swim pretty fast in them too without needing to cover your calves.

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    Very Active Member Spock's Avatar
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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    Spider-Man.
    Daredevil.
    Batman.
    Wolverine.
    Vision.
    Flash.
    Thor.
    Captain Marvel.

    Nobody cuts off at the knees.

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    Very Active Member elise526's Avatar
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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    Quote Originally Posted by ehoch View Post
    Exactly - why submit a recommendation for suits few people own and nobody will be able to buy ?????
    I have to admit that I have been wondering the same thing. So, will B-70 or Speedo make these suits just for masters?

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    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    Spider-Man.
    Daredevil.
    Batman.
    Wolverine.
    Vision.
    Flash.
    Thor.
    Captain Marvel.

    Nobody cuts off at the knees.
    As a comic book fan, have to say -- Love it!

    As for the "pro-suits gave up calves and rubber and anti-suits gave up zippers and torso" point, the latter seems highly skewed to help men. (It's not really a "give up" for many women as many have worn the recordbreaker kneeskin for years.) I prefer calves and "rubber." I'd love to know the gender breakdown of those voting ...

    The suit manufacturers must be going nuts not knowing what to manufacture ... I have no idea what suit I will be wear for my meet the end of October ... Of course, this is SOP this year for me.

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    Active Member hornHead's Avatar
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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    Spider-Man.
    Daredevil.
    Batman.
    Wolverine.
    Vision.
    Flash.
    Thor.
    Captain Marvel.

    Nobody cuts off at the knees.
    Mickey Mouse wears jammers, although the two buttons will have to go!

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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    Is the person who started this thread REALLY the same as the person who started another one a few months ago exhorting every masters swimmer to give up the tech suits voluntarily?
    Fair point - but there is a difference. For a real comparison between my times over the years, I would have to use the same suits (or no suit). I beat my Masters best time (2004) in the 100 Free by 3/10 this summer, BUT I am not sure how that really compares to the 2004 time.

    As for the "pro-suits gave up calves and rubber and anti-suits gave up zippers and torso" point, the latter seems highly skewed to help men.
    As long as the suits are textile, calf or no calf makes no difference. Covering the calf vs shaving is the same. I would have no problem if we had no "suit history" and this was a brand new thing. BUT, my guess is that there are about 5-10 times as many competition full body suits / legskins out there already compared to jammers (for meets - not practice suits) and knee skins. The best textile suit is the Speedo Fastskin Pro - they don't even make a kneeskin for Men and they won't design one for Masters.

    If you want to deviate from the Olympic swimmers, just go without the rubber and move on.

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    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    Quote Originally Posted by ehoch View Post
    As long as the suits are textile, calf or no calf makes no difference. Covering the calf vs shaving is the same. I would have no problem if we had no "suit history" and this was a brand new thing. BUT, my guess is that there are about 5-10 times as many competition full body suits / legskins out there already compared to jammers (for meets - not practice suits) and knee skins. The best textile suit is the Speedo Fastskin Pro - they don't even make a kneeskin for Men and they won't design one for Masters.
    I think calf vs. no calf makes a slight difference, especially for chicks as we don't get the shaving boost that guys get. And I think most would agree that zippers aid compression. (I guess you edited out the zipper comment.)

    I have no "suit history" whatsoever in either the FINA elite suits or the USMS compromise suits, so literally will have to start over on times if either rule is adopted for masters. Lately, I've come to think that FINA should have just stuck with it's first decision, which banned B70s but kept LZRs legal. I didn't agree with it -- because I think LZRs are more performance enhancing than B70s -- but at least it was an attempt to regulate and would have avoided the huge flip flopping mess that ensued.

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    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    Quote Originally Posted by ehoch View Post
    As long as the suits are textile, calf or no calf makes no difference. Covering the calf vs shaving is the same.
    This is the same as saying that there is no difference between textile jammers and legskins. I think that many would disagree. Personally, I think the difference is probably small or nonexistent. (I actually wore kneeskins for most of my full-body suits partly for this reason, since they were cheaper than the ones that went down to the ankles.)

    However, I bet the coverage adopted for women by FINA is what basically was driving the whole thing. I wasn't privvy to the reasoning of the Rules Committee, but I suppose it went like this:

    1. Start with FINA rules.
    2. Allow equal coverage for men and women.
    3. Allow zippers for "full-figured" and/or inflexible masters.

    One can agree or disagree on each step or one can argue (as you and others are doing here) that USMS should have gone still further.

    Regardless, it is out of USMS' hands now so this thread, while perhaps therapeutic, won't help your cause. Who knows what FINA will do or if they pay attention to anyone, but possibly you can argue your point with them.

    Because I think that once FINA makes a decision, USMS will probably follow...ESPECIALLY if FINA adopts USMS' suggestion.

    (By the way, I just saw your comment about FS-Pros and their lack of kneeskins. True...but I think the Tracer Light is just as good as the FS-Pro -- actually, I like the fit better -- and they DO make a kneeskin.)

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    Very Active Member jim thornton's Avatar
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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    Spider-Man.
    Daredevil.
    Batman.
    Wolverine.
    Vision.
    Flash.
    Thor.
    Captain Marvel.

    Nobody cuts off at the knees.

    You forgot Prince Namor, the fastest swimmer of them all!

    [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namor[/ame]

    Plus didn't Thor wear a kind of skirt?

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    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    2. Allow equal coverage for men and women.
    3. Allow zippers for "full-figured" and/or inflexible masters.
    If this is true, then torso coverage and zippers are in no way a sop or give to the pro-suit crowd. They were implemented for totally different policy reasons. Indeed, #3 is just another reason why masters differ from Michael Phelps.

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    Very Active Member gull's Avatar
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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    If this is true, then torso coverage and zippers are in no way a sop or give to the pro-suit crowd. They were implemented for totally different policy reasons. Indeed, #3 is just another reason why masters differ from Michael Phelps.
    Which is why I took issue with the "compromise" to begin with. A more rational approach would have been to do what FINA originally proposed--allow only tech suits released prior to 9/07, thus eliminating the rubber suits. Given a choice between the current proposal (textile kneeskins but no legskins or full body suits) and a complete tech suit ban, I would have voted for the latter.

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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    so where are we with this suit thing?
    anyplace I can go read about USMS position?
    I like(no,LOVE) full body fastskins(wrist to ankle)
    and really never want to shave my arms and legs again-EVER!
    at my age it just don't grow back like it used to...
    I say screw FINA+USA swimming and let Masters wear what they want.my kids quit coming to Masters meets years back because of the "old people in Speedos" and personally-I agree!

  20. #20
    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: Shoulder to Knee ? That is just plain stupid !

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    If this is true, then torso coverage and zippers are in no way a sop or give to the pro-suit crowd. They were implemented for totally different policy reasons. Indeed, #3 is just another reason why masters differ from Michael Phelps.
    Remember that I'm just guessing about the reasoning. But both things make the suits faster. How is this not a concession?

    All I hear from pro-techies is that they would give up on rubber but nothing else. But not because they want the suits faster (God forbid) but just to hang onto dwindling inventory.

    Honestly, it is like getting crack-addicts to agree to regulate cocaine. (I'm sure that comment will go over well...) Were you all really so unhappy swimming before the invention of the blessed B70? I just don't get it.

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