Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 100

Thread: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

  1. #1
    USMS Member since 2003 gull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,514

    Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    So I have decided to focus on the 1500/1650, partly because I seem to have misplaced the three fast twitch fibers I once owned, and partly because guys named Smith are now swimming the 500 and even the 1000. Geek suggested that I build my endurance with dryland work, but unlike him I have a job and limited time to train, and I don't really want to give up pool time. Any suggestions?

  2. #2
    Very Active Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    7,728
    Blog Entries
    1185

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    come swim with Longhorn Masters as much as you can
    join us for fast friday, saturday and sunday practices

    i stand by the advice in [ame="http://www.usms.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13627"]Last 150 of my 500 falls off [/ame]

    [ame="http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=175252&postcount=7"]first post [/ame]


    Tip 265 [ame="http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=188495&postcount=1252"]Train harder, smarter, faster, further, more often, with a coach, with a team, in a convenient facility & at a convenient Time[/ame]



    Quote Originally Posted by gull View Post
    So I have decided to focus on the 1500/1650, partly because I seem to have misplaced the three fast twitch fibers I once owned, and partly because guys named Smith are now swimming the 500 and even the 1000. Geek suggested that I build my endurance with dryland work, but unlike him I have a job and limited time to train, and I don't really want to give up pool time. Any suggestions?

  3. #3
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,321
    Blog Entries
    538

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    I did a set last year that I thought really helped with distance pacing. The first week I did both 4x50 on :45 trying to hold my 500 pace and 4x100 on 1:30 trying to hold my 1650 pace. Then the following week I did 6x50 on :45, and the week after that 6x100 on 1:30. I kept adding two repeats until I got up to 20x50 and 20x100. Then I skipped a week, then the final week (probably two weeks out from Nationals) did both 10x50 and 10x100. So the only weeks you do both the 50s and the 100s are the first and last weeks. All the other weeks you just do one or the other. The sendoffs worked out for me to give very close to a 2:1 swim to rest ratio.

    That first week you'll think to yourself "there's no way I'm ever going to make 20 of these," but by the time you get there you'll realize you can. That was the beauty of this progression to me: it helped both physically and mentally.

    Other than that I recommend trying to do a set of 3,000 yards or more without much rest at least once per week. Personally I'm not a fan of long swims in workout. I think pace stuff is more rewarding and far less boring. I also do very little dryland. Not to say dryland can't help, but I don't think it's essential.
    Last edited by knelson; October 12th, 2009 at 11:55 PM.

  4. #4
    Very Active Member elise526's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    A state in the Southeast
    Posts
    804
    Blog Entries
    389

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by knelson View Post
    I did a set last year that I thought really helped with distance pacing. The first week I did both 4x50 on :45 trying to hold my 500 pace and 4x100 on 1:30 trying to hold my 1650 pace. Then the following week I did 6x50 on :45, and the week after that 6x100 on 1:30. I kept adding two repeats until I got up to 20x50 and 20x100. Then I skipped a week, then the final week (probably two weeks out from Nationals) did both 10x50 and 10x100. So the only weeks you do both the 50s and the 100s are the first and last weeks. All the other weeks you just do one or the other. The sendoffs worked out for me to give very close to a 2:1 swim to rest ratio.

    That first week you'll think to yourself "there's no way I'm ever going to make 20 of these," but by the time you get there you'll realize you can. That was the beauty of this progression to me: it helped both physically and mentally.

    Other than that I recommend trying to do a set of 3,000 yards or more without much rest at least once per week. Personally I'm not a fan of long swims in workout. I think pace stuff is more rewarding and far less boring. I also do very little dryland. Not to say dryland can't help, but I don't think it's essential.
    Kirk - I give a few private lessons to some triathletes training for Olympic distance tris. As you know, the swim is 1500 meters. Curious to know your thoughts on this set:

    10 x 100 on 1:30
    2 minutes rest
    10 x 100 on 1:25
    2 minutes rest
    10 x 100 on 1:20

    Also, I used to train with a triathlete that enjoyed this set:

    80 x 25 on :25.

    This was actually pretty fun and would go by fast.

  5. #5
    Swimming gives me a buzz! Bobinator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    A, A
    Posts
    1,069
    Blog Entries
    407

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    Starting about now when I swim solo I do 16 X 100 on descending intervals grouped in 4's starting at 1:50/1:45/1:40/1:35. I try to keep the repeat time at my goal 1600 pace time. You were have to speed your intervals up I'm sure but the concept might work. I usually do 4 X 200 warm-up with various stroke/drill combinations.
    I finish up with 50's and 25's stroke too.
    HTFU!

  6. #6
    Very Active Member geochuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Vancouver British Columbia Canada
    Posts
    6,504

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    I still like evenly paced 100s with 10 or 15 sec rest periods. The rest periods can be decreased as low as 5 seconds when you a ready to do this. 2 sets of 15 with a 5 or 6 min rest between these 2 sets. They should be done at a little faster time then race pace if you want to be faster then you are now. Once or twice a week is good of course do your regular training the other days and don't forget your warmups and cool down swims..
    Last edited by geochuck; October 13th, 2009 at 09:34 AM.
    Keep it simple George Park
    New swimsuit styles http://www.swimdownhill.com

  7. #7
    Very Active Member aquageek's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    5,624
    Blog Entries
    588

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    Since you are apparently terraphobic and have a job, I will suggest that you do exactly what Kurt says, it's a good program.

    I also think descending interval sets are great for this type of training, which echos Elise.

  8. #8
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,321
    Blog Entries
    538

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by elise526 View Post
    Curious to know your thoughts on this set
    I like it. I do plenty of stuff on descending intervals, too. If the intervals are right you might be able to push the first set pretty hard, then just try to make the final group.

    George's set is good, but I wouldn't expect to be able to be able to hold your goal mile pace with only 10-15 seconds rest between repeats. I can barely do it with 30 seconds rest.

  9. #9
    Spends Too Much Time Here Iwannafly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Lynchburg, VA
    Posts
    566
    Blog Entries
    77

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by gull View Post
    So I have decided to focus on the 1500/1650, partly because I seem to have misplaced the three fast twitch fibers I once owned, and partly because guys named Smith are now swimming the 500 and even the 1000. Geek suggested that I build my endurance with dryland work, but unlike him I have a job and limited time to train, and I don't really want to give up pool time. Any suggestions?
    Having spent a little time in Austin, I remember the great running around Town Lake (I seem to remember there being lighted paths, but I could be wrong). I also remember visiting Barton Springs for a 'cool down' swim after a couple of our longer runs. Running is a great endurance booster and a 45 minute run will certainly get (and keep) your heart rate up.
    Damn Smiths swimming 500s and 1000s!

  10. #10
    Very Active Member SolarEnergy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    University of Montreal Tri-Team
    Posts
    955

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by gull View Post
    Geek suggested that I build my endurance with dryland work, but unlike him I have a job and limited time to train, and I don't really want to give up pool time. Any suggestions?
    I already have a huge endurance base built dryland, it just does not transfer to swimming. So I'd probably suggest - if like you're training time is limited - to avoid taking this path.

    My cycling / cross-training endurance level is such that if it was transferring to swimming, I'd expect a 1500 well under 20m. Trust me, I don't get anywhere near this at the moment.

    Your question is simple and calls for a simple answer. The main fitness component involved in performing the 1500 is anaerobic threshold. This component, as you already know, is best developed when training at threshold pace.

    For me, intervals should be favored but they have to be designed in a way that favors threshold development. And for this, you just need to make sure that the rest periods are short enough so that your body can't really notice that you actually stop.

    Half life of several physiological processes involved in maintaining threshold pace is ~30s. If you make your rest periods equal or shorter than let's say 20sec you should be ok. Then the rule is simple: the avg intensity including the rest has to match the threshold level. If so, you're working at threshold.

    Now, for determining the intensity, I would strongly suggest that you use swim pace instead of HR. It is much easier to monitor and is also much more reliable. The scientific literature often recommend simple endurance tests to establish what your target threshold pace should be. It ranges from T1000 to T3000. Personally, I don't pay much attention to these standards. Any distance that belongs to the threshold spectrum is fine.

    As a reminder, there's this good old Critical Swim Speed concept that would allow you to build smart sets. Based on two inputs, it can guide you in determining what target pace should be for any (longish) distance. For instance, you supply the 200 and the 400, you get the 3000. So you can tune a set of 15x200 on precise pace using this old principle.

    And if you really want to get scientific, you may try to compute Skiba's Swim Scores. That allows for the whole season to be monitored the same way you'd do with TRIMPS. I am currently putting an Excel Spreadsheet to compute these as I intend to use this concept this year.

    - - -
    Ref
    http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0162.htm explanation of the concept
    http://www.swimsmooth.com/training.html calculator (in the middle of the page)
    http://www.physfarm.com/swimscore.pdf Skiba's Swim Score
    Last edited by SolarEnergy; October 13th, 2009 at 12:15 PM.

  11. #11
    Very Active Member Ken Classen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Denver
    Posts
    301

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    I think most of suggestions here are good. One of my favorite set's (not really as it hurts) is 11x150's (SCY) or 10x150 (SCM) on a tight interval :10 to :15 seconds rest. Focusing hard on that pace clock and trying sustain the same pace at the end of set as at the beginning.

  12. #12
    Very Active Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan
    Posts
    105

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Classen View Post
    One of my favorite set's (not really as it hurts) is 11x150's (SCY) or 10x150 (SCM) on a tight interval :10 to :15 seconds rest. Focusing hard on that pace clock and trying sustain the same pace at the end of set as at the beginning.
    Ken (or others),
    How close are you to your goal 1650 pace when you do a set like this? I'd be about 4-5 seconds per 100 slower than my goal 1650 pace. Note that this would be a "jump in and do it set" and not one where I'd mentally or physically prepare or wear a racing suit.

    Given the short rest interval, I find it hard to get closer to my goal pace. Am I not pushing hard enough?
    Last edited by djacks; October 13th, 2009 at 01:15 PM.

  13. #13
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,321
    Blog Entries
    538

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by djacks View Post
    Given the short rest interval, I find it hard to get closer to my goal pace. Am I not pushing hard enough?
    No, I agree with you. If I started out a set like this on my goal pace I'd make the first one and then fall off. I think sets like this with maybe ten seconds rest are great for building your endurance, but I don't think you can realistically do them at your mile pace. At least that's my experience. And maybe if you can make your goal pace, your goal pace isn't fast enough!

  14. #14
    Very Active Member jim thornton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    A, A
    Posts
    2,106
    Blog Entries
    261

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    My best season for distance swimming was when we did a ton of 500s and 200s in practice. I personally prefer sets of 100s, but if I really want to get into good distance shape, I find the minimum repeat unit needs to be 200s.

    Don't get me wrong: 100s are good, too. But 200s are long enough so that you really are simulating distance mentality here. For me, knowing I only have to swim 4 lengths of the pool and get at least a tiny rest (albeit sometimes just a breath on the wall and a break from a flip turn), well, it's just not the same distance mentality somehow.

    Our coach, the locally legendary Bill White, was superb at subtly increasing the pressure over the course of the season. I think we started off doing sets of 4 x 200s on 2:45. Then he threw a few in at 2:40 and 2:35. Like Knelson said about his own approach, what would have seemed inconceivable at the beginning of the season slowly became just barely doable several months into it.

    The crowning touch was when we swam 10 x 200 on 2:30, rested two minutes, then swam another 10 x 200 on 2:30.

    For me, that workout was then, and remains today, the hardest practice of my life. And the best confidence booster ever.

    When we went to a meet, I knew I could swim with quite a bit of endurance.

  15. #15
    Very Active Member elise526's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    A state in the Southeast
    Posts
    804
    Blog Entries
    389

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    Since this thread has the attention of the distance gurus, want to ask a few questions about pace based on the last time I swam the 500 (Actually, the next to last time as the last time was just a warm-up.). I consider myself a sprinter, but wouldn't mind improving on this event. Based on my last 50, could I have held a faster pace? Any ideas on how I can improve my pace and suggested intervals?


    _____________________36 CVYS-SE 5:47.94
    31.64 34.92 35.14 35.87 35.31 35.40 35.53 35.86
    35.36 32.91
    Last edited by elise526; October 14th, 2009 at 12:54 AM.

  16. #16
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,321
    Blog Entries
    538

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    That looks like a well split race to me. Your first 250 was 2:52.88 and your second was 2:55.06. I don't think your final 50 suggests you could have held a faster pace overall, but maybe you could have picked it up earlier. I like to consciously pick up my pace when I see 13 on the counter. Unless I'm really dead my final 50 is always the second fastest 50 (you do get to finish to your hand rather than your feet, after all), but I like the second to last to be faster than the 50s from the middle of the race, too.

    Based on this maybe you should try pace sets where you try to hold either 50s at :34 or 100s at 1:08. As I've said in other posts, I can't hold a goal pace like this with short rest. Figure you need 15 seconds rest for 50s and 30 for 100s. If you try this and it's easy for you, then maybe you should try pushing it a little harder next time you swim a 500.

  17. #17
    Very Active Member elise526's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    A state in the Southeast
    Posts
    804
    Blog Entries
    389

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by knelson View Post
    That looks like a well split race to me. Your first 250 was 2:52.88 and your second was 2:55.06. I don't think your final 50 suggests you could have held a faster pace overall, but maybe you could have picked it up earlier. I like to consciously pick up my pace when I see 13 on the counter. Unless I'm really dead my final 50 is always the second fastest 50 (you do get to finish to your hand rather than your feet, after all), but I like the second to last to be faster than the 50s from the middle of the race, too.

    Based on this maybe you should try pace sets where you try to hold either 50s at :34 or 100s at 1:08. As I've said in other posts, I can't hold a goal pace like this with short rest. Figure you need 15 seconds rest for 50s and 30 for 100s. If you try this and it's easy for you, then maybe you should try pushing it a little harder next time you swim a 500.
    Thanks, Kirk! Sounds like I should set my interval around 1:40 to hold the 1:08 pace. For the 500, would sets of 10 be sufficient, or is it wise to do sets of 20?

    Is there any benefit in doing a set of 10 x 100 on 1:20? On a REALLY good day, I might be able to make this set. I'm sure after three, I would be getting just a few seconds (2 or 3) of rest. In training for the 500, is there any benefit in doing a set of 10 with this little rest?

    P.S. Sorry to gull for getting a little off the subject.
    Last edited by elise526; October 13th, 2009 at 03:28 PM.

  18. #18
    USMS Member since 2003 gull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,514

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    Thanks for the great responses. A couple of questions:

    How much aerobic (En1) swimming should I be doing outside of the warm up and warm down? And how long should the anaerobic threshold (En2) sets be?

  19. #19
    Very Active Member SolarEnergy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    University of Montreal Tri-Team
    Posts
    955

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by gull View Post
    Thanks for the great responses. A couple of questions:

    How much aerobic (En1) swimming should I be doing outside of the warm up and warm down? And how long should the anaerobic threshold (En2) sets be?
    One immediate question that pops in my mind is : Do you really want to turn yourself into a distance swimmer? (or do you - just like me - want to keep and maintain a sprint edge as well)

    A second question would be : Out of curiosity, have you ever heard about the SweetSpot training principle? (It has been discussed over and over in the cycling world)

  20. #20
    USMS Member since 2003 gull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,514

    Re: Training for the 1500/1650: Suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by SolarEnergy View Post
    One immediate question that pops in my mind is : Do you really want to turn yourself into a distance swimmer? (or do you - just like me - want to keep and maintain a sprint edge as well)

    A second question would be : Out of curiosity, have you ever heard about the SweetSpot training principle? (It has been discussed over and over in the cycling world)
    Not familiar with the Sweet Spot training principle.

    I never have been a sprinter; I have always considered myself a middle distance swimmer (swam the 500 and the 1000 in college). My coach, who was himself a miler, called the 500 a sprint.

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Baseline training
    By tomtopo in forum General Swimming-Related Discussions
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: May 1st, 2009, 09:32 PM
  2. Age Grouper Weight Program?
    By spudfin in forum General Swimming-Related Discussions
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: November 30th, 2008, 02:01 PM
  3. Kinesthetic Awareness vs Cognitive Analysis
    By JMiller in forum General Swimming-Related Discussions
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: December 11th, 2007, 08:27 PM
  4. EVF Resistance Training for swimmers
    By tomtopo in forum General Swimming-Related Discussions
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: July 31st, 2007, 10:15 PM
  5. Training for distance, suggestions?
    By islandsox in forum General Swimming-Related Discussions
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: February 15th, 2007, 12:43 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •