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Thread: Masters Motivational Times

  1. #121
    raced the 200 fly couldbebetterfly's Avatar
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post
    You go girl!!!
    It looks like we are at almost at the same level in our specialties. Except, I go in reverse order! The longer I swim, the slower I get...
    I probably should have pointed out that I peak at 400m
    30something and way too young for my times

  2. #122
    Won Slowest Swimmer Award bzaks1424's Avatar
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    Quote Originally Posted by couldbebetterfly View Post
    I probably should have pointed out that I peak at 400m
    Wow! I peak at like 3-4' (assuming a push off the wall)
    "Fran operated under the assumption that one’s ability to cope with the travails of daily life fluctuates in direct proportion to one’s willingness to work through hurt." -Ian Prichard

  3. #123
    Very Active Member orca1946's Avatar
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    I turn 65 b 4 the next state meet, so I need to get a bit faster.

  4. #124
    Very Active Member jroddin's Avatar
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    Steve,

    I am impressed with the work you've done over the past few seasons on these motivational times. The USMS Championship Committee developed the NQTs strictly for the purpose of having time standards for our National Championship meets and weren't created to serve as any kind of motivational tool or yardstick (although it is inevitable they can be used as such). Your tables can indeed reach out to a larger audience and serve various levels of swimmers.

    From what I have learned from your posts, you take the average 6-10 place times from Top Ten from each event/age group/sex and then average that time over the past 3 years and then apply a factor (+5%, +10%, +15, ..., +40% etc) to come up with times for each "grade." I personally like the idea of using the 3 year average instead of using only the fastest time from those three years (USS method). The 3 year average smooths the curves out better and you aren't as prone to have a "bump" when that fast time drops out the back (but the USS method tends to keep the times the same for a couple years, which some may like for consistency). Anyway, either method has its pros and cons. NQTs simply use the Top Ten 10th place average over the past 3 years and apply a scaling factor (can change meet to meet, but often it is 10% for events 200+ and 15% for 50s and 100s). For events that don't have 10 times in the Top Ten, we use the 5th place average and apply a larger scaling factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by sjstuart View Post
    Since the 2010 SCY Top Ten list has been finalized, I have updated the SCY motivational times.

    Not surprisingly, the motivational times got faster because tech suits were still legal in the 2010 SCY season. Time cutoffs got faster by about 1%, on average, pretty much independent of gender & stroke & distance.
    That is interesting to see your observation about the times being 1% faster. How much of that do you think is the influence of 2010 times being added and how much is it the fact that 2007 times got dropped from the table? For SCY, our Top Ten is dominated by times done at Nationals (I've seen many instances where somebody got 10th place at Nationals and that time ended up being 10th in the Top Ten). 2007 (Federal Way) was a smaller meet than average and 2010 (Atlanta) blew away the average, so your tables saw a "double whammy."

    For 2011 NQTs the Championship Committee will have to determine how to take into account the "tech suit" effect. But we can't really make any decisions until the HOD makes up its mind on which way we will go for SCY suit rules.

    Jeff Roddin
    USMS Championship Committee

    PS. Steve - do you attend convention?

  5. #125
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    Quote Originally Posted by jroddin View Post
    From what I have learned from your posts, you take the average 6-10 place times from Top Ten from each event/age group/sex and then average that time over the past 3 years and then apply a factor (+5%, +10%, +15, ..., +40% etc) to come up with times for each "grade."
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by jroddin View Post
    I personally like the idea of using the 3 year average instead of using only the fastest time from those three years (USS method).
    As I understand it, the USS times are determined by the fastest ever times, not the fastest times in the last quad. (As explained by krovetz in post #105, although his link is now dead.)

    I've decided I like this rolling average method better, too. Using all-time best times would make the standards more stable, but in this post-tech suit era those high-water marks might be a little too far out of reach. I like the fact that the next step above AAAA on the chart is making the Top Ten list.

    Quote Originally Posted by jroddin View Post
    That is interesting to see your observation about the times being 1% faster. How much of that do you think is the influence of 2010 times being added and how much is it the fact that 2007 times got dropped from the table?
    I can't say. When I get some time, I plan to look at the year-to-year trends in the Top Ten. Maybe then I'll be able to answer your question.

    Quote Originally Posted by jroddin View Post
    PS. Steve - do you attend convention?
    Nope. I really don't know anything about it, but I assume I'd have to be a representative, or something.

  6. #126
    Very Active Member jim thornton's Avatar
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    Quote Originally Posted by sjstuart View Post
    Nope. I really don't know anything about it, but I assume I'd have to be a representative, or something.
    Not really. The main requirement is a superhuman tolerance for boredom.

  7. #127
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    Not sure why i just saw these now. I rate a whole lot better on these than on the usa-s charts i was previously comparing myself to.

    ...about 0.06sec away from a AAAA time

  8. #128
    Participating Member Frogman's Avatar
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    This is sooooo great! I am super motivated now after looking up my times from last year against this list. I make the B cut on a few swims...Wooo hooo...working up towards the top from here. This is great! Thank you soooo much!

    Manuel
    Manuel aka Frogman

  9. #129
    Swimming gives me a buzz! Bobinator's Avatar
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    Oh drat here it is!
    HTFU!

  10. #130
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    Does anybody have an updated Motivational Times Chart for any/all courses they can post here? I am still referring to old charts from 2010 and would like to see updated charts; especially now that I am competing in several new events.

    Steve, I know I have asked you this before, but... Do you plan to update your charts? Please???
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    I second Elaine's request.

  12. #132
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    What's wrong with the current charts? I think even USA Swimming only updates their charts every three years.

  13. #133
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    Quote Originally Posted by anodyl View Post
    I second Elaine's request.
    Thanks! They would be much more helpful than the 2010 charts I am currently using.
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  14. #134
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    Anyone know if these charts have been updated since 2010? They are motivational for me

  15. #135
    Very Active Member robertsrobson's Avatar
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    Quote Originally Posted by sjstuart View Post
    When I started swimming masters a few years ago, I soon found myself wanting some time standards to compare myself against. Sure, tracking my own PRs is motivating, but I also wanted some sort of objective mark to measure myself against.

    There is the Top 10 list, of course, but I'm not close enough to those times for them to serve as realistic motivation. Nationals qualifying times provide a slightly lower bar, but these are still out of many masters' reach. It seems like there should be some sort of time standards that are more widely applicable -- like the A, AA, ... motivational times in kids' age group swimming.

    I did use those USA Swimming motivational times for a while, but I got tired of comparing myself to 12-year-olds. Eventually I decided to create my own masters' motivational time standards, using the same method that is used for the kids.

    I have really enjoyed using these motivational times over the past couple of years, and I'm guessing they might be useful to others as well. Especially for those, like me, who are competitive enough to be motivated by a quantitative benchmark, but not fast enough to aspire to the Top 10 list.

    I have just updated the SCY list, and figured I would post it here for others to use.

    Please enjoy. I'd also love to hear any feedback.
    As a psychologist, I'd always recommend that the only comparison worth using for motivation is yourself. I'd also focus less on times per se, but on how you are training, preparing and executing your swims. I've never come across "motivational times" but it scares me that there might be an officially sanctioned version of this for younger swimmers, as it flies in the face of evidence about motivation and related emotional and behavioural impacts on the athlete.

  16. #136
    Very Active Member arthur's Avatar
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    Quote Originally Posted by robertsrobson View Post
    As a psychologist, I'd always recommend that the only comparison worth using for motivation is yourself. I'd also focus less on times per se, but on how you are training, preparing and executing your swims. I've never come across "motivational times" but it scares me that there might be an officially sanctioned version of this for younger swimmers, as it flies in the face of evidence about motivation and related emotional and behavioural impacts on the athlete.
    I think the purpose of the age group swimmers "motivational times" list is for qualifying for meets.

  17. #137
    Very Active Member robertsrobson's Avatar
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    Quote Originally Posted by arthur View Post
    I think the purpose of the age group swimmers "motivational times" list is for qualifying for meets.
    Ah, fair enough. Just a strange name to use then...?

  18. #138
    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    Quote Originally Posted by robertsrobson View Post
    I've never come across "motivational times" but it scares me that there might be an officially sanctioned version of this for younger swimmers, as it flies in the face of evidence about motivation and related emotional and behavioural impacts on the athlete.
    Since I remember these standards from my age-group days, they have been around in the US for at least 40 years though they haven't always been called "motivational" standards, I'm not exactly sure when that name started. I would say that they have always been used for both organization (so that meets wouldn't get too big, for example) and motivation. I still remember the patches and stars that kids in my area wore on their sweats to indicate A/AA times that they've achieved (five stars total, one for each stroke + IM, different color stars for A and AA times).

    Despite your statement, I would say that my experience as a swimmer and swimmer parent has been positive about their value as motivation. My father probably still remembers fondly when I got my first A-time as a 7 year old, he would probably still say that it ranks as his fondest memory of my childhood swimming days simply because of my stunned (and joyful) reaction.

  19. #139
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    Despite your statement, I would say that my experience as a swimmer and swimmer parent has been positive about their value as motivation. My father probably still remembers fondly when I got my first A-time as a 7 year old, he would probably still say that it ranks as his fondest memory of my childhood swimming days simply because of my stunned (and joyful) reaction.
    I agree. As an age group swimmer these ARE your goal times. OK, a select few are aiming for NAG Top Ten (or top 16 when we were kids), an LSC record, etc. but the vast majority are looking to get that A time, or that AAA time or whatever. Swimming is a timed sport. To say you shouldn't be focusing on "times per se" seems completely counter to what competitive swimming is all about, in my opinion.

  20. #140
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    Re: Masters Motivational Times

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post
    Does anybody have an updated Motivational Times Chart for any/all courses they can post here? I am still referring to old charts from 2010 and would like to see updated charts; especially now that I am competing in several new events.

    Steve, I know I have asked you this before, but... Do you plan to update your charts? Please???


    Anyone know if this has been done? If so, please forward the link -

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