The Breaststroke Lane

[ElaineK]

Hi Swim! Great feedback you are providing on the thread. Thanks for joining us here on "The Breaststroke Lane"; you are a welcome addition!

[Chris Stevenson]

http://www.usms.org/articles/articledisplay.php?a=340

"The trials and experimentations that were done with elite athletes showed that the long pullout is the most efficient for them, but results obtained with younger swimmers and with some Masters swimmers were a bit different; most of the trials resulted in times that were a little bit faster than those with the traditional pullout, or just as fast."

Comments, impressions?

[breastroker]

The short breaststroke pullout and the zero underwater stroke breast pullout have been topics of discussion for 40 years.

The zero underwater stroke is really fast for some breaststrokers, but is illegal.

There is also some discussion of the legality of what I have long called the underwater breaststroke pulldown, which is just a breaststroke pull to the shoulders, done underwater. This goes all the way back to Mike Barrowman swimming all those lengths underwater EXACTLY as if he were on the surface.

I am pretty sure this technique is not legal in masters swimming. I remember asking Kathy Casey about it, pretty sure her ruling was a breaststroke scull was not legal. Perhaps we should ask again, as most of us are masters swimmers.

You can just about get away with anything in breaststroke once or twice. Look at all the olympic photos of dolphin kicking INTO a turn. I have even seen a very good breaststroker take TWO full underwater strokes. He was right next to me and really screwed my head up!

I still say most breaststrokers have poor underwaters because they have no idea how to really streamline. Those who know me understand I am not built like King Frog. He is like a slender dolphin. I am more like a KILLER WHALE, not exactly slender. But when I raced a 200 yard breaststroke, I swam it 60% underwater and only 40% on the top. In the 200 I try for 14 yards off the walls for the first 100 and 13 yards for the second hundred. I have very wide shoulders, and I am very inflexible, very stiff. But every big race I would get on the massage tables for several hours, and hung arround on the ROM strap invented by the great Marty Hull. I hav an nice article about it on the website.

When needed I can become more streamlined than King Frog, that comes from many years of 15 and 16 yard pushoffs underwaters in swim practice. I loved to un-nerve freestylers, I would come into the turn even and come out a body length ahead. Great fun.

But it all comes down to looking at your streamline in videos and in mirrors, and then PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE

[breastroker]

I almost forgot, I try NOT to breath on the first stroke up both in practice and in races.

And I have asthma too. It is all in the mind.

[Allen Stark]

The short breaststroke pullout and the zero underwater stroke breast pullout have been topics of discussion for 40 years.

The zero underwater stroke is really fast for some breaststrokers, but is illegal.

There is also some discussion of the legality of what I have long called the underwater breaststroke pulldown, which is just a breaststroke pull to the shoulders, done underwater. This goes all the way back to Mike Barrowman swimming all those lengths underwater EXACTLY as if he were on the surface.

I am pretty sure this technique is not legal in masters swimming. I remember asking Kathy Casey about it, pretty sure her ruling was a breaststroke scull was not legal. Perhaps we should ask again, as most of us are masters swimmers.

You can just about get away with anything in breaststroke once or twice. Look at all the olympic photos of dolphin kicking INTO a turn. I have even seen a very good breaststroker take TWO full underwater strokes. He was right next to me and really screwed my head up!

I still say most breaststrokers have poor underwaters because they have no idea how to really streamline. Those who know me understand I am not built like King Frog. He is like a slender dolphin. I am more like a KILLER WHALE, not exactly slender. But when I raced a 200 yard breaststroke, I swam it 60% underwater and only 40% on the top. In the 200 I try for 14 yards off the walls for the first 100 and 13 yards for the second hundred. I have very wide shoulders, and I am very inflexible, very stiff. But every big race I would get on the massage tables for several hours, and hung arround on the ROM strap invented by the great Marty Hull. I hav an nice article about it on the website.

When needed I can become more streamlined than King Frog, that comes from many years of 15 and 16 yard pushoffs underwaters in swim practice. I loved to un-nerve freestylers, I would come into the turn even and come out a body length ahead. Great fun.

But it all comes down to looking at your streamline in videos and in mirrors, and then PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE

Wayne does have unbelievable pullouts.
I am confused about what you are referring to that is illegal.An pullout is not necessary.One can push off,come to the surface and start swimming.I have seen Rick Colella do this on the last turn of the 200 BR.
I experimented with doing the short pull(basically swimming one regular BR stroke underwater) and was not DQd when I tried it in one meet.I think it might be faster for me unshaved,but the greater distance obtained with the regular pullout shaved made it slower for big meets so I chose not to practice it. I think it may be faster if you have a weaker pull and a stronger kick as it practically eliminates the slow down from the recovery of the arms into the kick.I imagine the ones who also shouldn't use it are those with a weak kick as they should try to get as much out of their pull as possible.

[jaadams1]

are those with a weak kick as they should try to get as much out of their pull as possible.

This 100% describes my breaststroke. Legs go through the legal motion and add about 20% of the power. Arms do 100% of the work. Don't do the math please.

[lnlds]

Sorry to interrupt your discussion but I had a meet last weekend and tried to implement the suggestions you guys gave me.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hePmL9CRV2Y"]100 Breast 11/12/2011 - YouTube[/nomedia] (100 breast 106.1)
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpZLfDgzwRM"]50 breast 11/12/11 - YouTube[/nomedia] (50 breast 29.8)

I'm pretty excited the 100 is my 2nd fastest time off of a flat start which I posted earlier and I was wearing an endurance speedo for this race too. I noticed that I alternative between a more correct stroke and my old stroke. I know it's only been a week but any tips on how to fix it? comments and critiques are always welcome

[robertsrobson]

The short breaststroke pullout and the zero underwater stroke breast pullout have been topics of discussion for 40 years.

The zero underwater stroke is really fast for some breaststrokers, but is illegal.

There is also some discussion of the legality of what I have long called the underwater breaststroke pulldown, which is just a breaststroke pull to the shoulders, done underwater. This goes all the way back to Mike Barrowman swimming all those lengths underwater EXACTLY as if he were on the surface.

I am pretty sure this technique is not legal in masters swimming. I remember asking Kathy Casey about it, pretty sure her ruling was a breaststroke scull was not legal. Perhaps we should ask again, as most of us are masters swimmers.

You can just about get away with anything in breaststroke once or twice. Look at all the olympic photos of dolphin kicking INTO a turn. I have even seen a very good breaststroker take TWO full underwater strokes. He was right next to me and really screwed my head up!

I still say most breaststrokers have poor underwaters because they have no idea how to really streamline. Those who know me understand I am not built like King Frog. He is like a slender dolphin. I am more like a KILLER WHALE, not exactly slender. But when I raced a 200 yard breaststroke, I swam it 60% underwater and only 40% on the top. In the 200 I try for 14 yards off the walls for the first 100 and 13 yards for the second hundred. I have very wide shoulders, and I am very inflexible, very stiff. But every big race I would get on the massage tables for several hours, and hung arround on the ROM strap invented by the great Marty Hull. I hav an nice article about it on the website.

When needed I can become more streamlined than King Frog, that comes from many years of 15 and 16 yard pushoffs underwaters in swim practice. I loved to un-nerve freestylers, I would come into the turn even and come out a body length ahead. Great fun.

But it all comes down to looking at your streamline in videos and in mirrors, and then PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE

I'm completely with Wayne here, except I haven't yet started practicing the first stroke without breathing. But my key objectives in the 200m are to maintain 7 strokes per length and length of underwater. Assuming I'm fit enough there's not much else to worry about!

[swimBRCT]

Sorry to interrupt your discussion but I had a meet last weekend and tried to implement the suggestions you guys gave me.

100 Breast 11/12/2011 - YouTube (100 breast 106.1)
50 breast 11/12/11 - YouTube (50 breast 29.8)

I'm pretty excited the 100 is my 2nd fastest time off of a flat start which I posted earlier and I was wearing an endurance speedo for this race too. I noticed that I alternative between a more correct stroke and my old stroke. I know it's only been a week but any tips on how to fix it? comments and critiques are always welcome

Definitely looking better! I can see the more aggressive recovery already, especially in the first 50 of the 100.

ON the 50 breaststroke, still looked very rushed especially on the second lap. Granted the turnover is fast but you still want to get into a horizontal position after each stroke... since your head was breaking the water and I could see the water cave in after you returned into the water after each stroke, you could probably work on "flattening out" after each stroke. Running the body line nice and long.

On the 100 breaststroke, you were pretty good for the first 50, then on the 3rd lap I started seeing your head stay above the water while you were gliding... work on keeping your head down below the water in line with your body during the glide and that will help keep your hips up + your body line horizontal..

@Coach Wayne... always a pleasure to hear your thoughts. That said, a swimmer from my state (Emily Barber, swam for Branford Stingrays) went to Senior nationals + didn't do pullouts off of each wall... didn't win but still went pretty quick

[Allen Stark]

Sorry to interrupt your discussion but I had a meet last weekend and tried to implement the suggestions you guys gave me.

100 Breast 11/12/2011 - YouTube (100 breast 106.1)
50 breast 11/12/11 - YouTube (50 breast 29.8)

I'm pretty excited the 100 is my 2nd fastest time off of a flat start which I posted earlier and I was wearing an endurance speedo for this race too. I noticed that I alternative between a more correct stroke and my old stroke. I know it's only been a week but any tips on how to fix it? comments and critiques are always welcome

Big improvement(mostly).As you note you were inconsistent between old and new strokes.The last length of the 100 you lost timing.I think your pull narrowed,but it was hard to tell from this angle.In practice do some build 100s where you start at 200 pace or slower and end going AFAP.As you do so concentrate on good form especially good streamlining.

[Allen Stark]

Here is something I have been noticing/thinking about and I wonder what you all think.
When I was in college I was taught that the propulsive surface in the breaststroke kick was the instep so that the foot stayed in roughly the same position throughout the kick.
In the early 90s I read about the "ankle snap" and saw pictures of breaststrokers finishing their kick with the soles of their feet facing each other.I started doing that as best I could with the snap coming in the last part of the kick.
More recently I had been focusing more on my pull and timing and not thinking about my kick that much except to be aware of trying to touch my heels to my rear on the recovery and get my feet turned out as much as possible on the catch but most recently I have been focusing on my kick again and have noticed I had begun to internally rotate my feet(ankle snap) right after the catch,very early in my kick.This markedly decreases the power of the ankle snap but seems to give me more thrust as it provides a larger propulsive surface for longer .This seems analogous to EVF/straight pull in free in that one can generate faster hand speed with an S pull,but this is more than made up for by the larger propulsive surface of EVF.
What do my fellow BR laners think.

[swimBRCT]

Here is something I have been noticing/thinking about and I wonder what you all think.
When I was in college I was taught that the propulsive surface in the breaststroke kick was the instep so that the foot stayed in roughly the same position throughout the kick.
In the early 90s I read about the "ankle snap" and saw pictures of breaststrokers finishing their kick with the soles of their feet facing each other.I started doing that as best I could with the snap coming in the last part of the kick.
More recently I had been focusing more on my pull and timing and not thinking about my kick that much except to be aware of trying to touch my heels to my rear on the recovery and get my feet turned out as much as possible on the catch but most recently I have been focusing on my kick again and have noticed I had begun to internally rotate my feet(ankle snap) right after the catch,very early in my kick.This markedly decreases the power of the ankle snap but seems to give me more thrust as it provides a larger propulsive surface for longer .This seems analogous to EVF/straight pull in free in that one can generate faster hand speed with an S pull,but this is more than made up for by the larger propulsive surface of EVF.
What do my fellow BR laners think.

Do you have a picture of what you're describing here?

Let me make sure I understand the terminology:
sole= bottom of foot (when standing, the plane is parallel to the floor)
instep= inside of foot (when standing, the plane is perpendicular to the floor)
internal rotation= turn towards midline (so if you were standing up, your feet would rotate towards the middle, ex pigeon toe)

You describe a picture with soles facing one another... This seems rather odd! Then the two planes of your feet pushing water are vertical and moving water to the opposite side (ex left foot pushing water to the right and vice versa)

When I think of "ankle snap" I think of the finish of the kick, which is towards the end of knee extension. Can't really visualize any "snapping" going on right after the catch, especially since you said "internal rotation". Wouldn't that decrease the propulsive surface? I would think that *maybe* external rotation early in the kick would increase propulsive surface (orients more of the instep + fat calves closer to the transverse plane, which is what you need to do to move forward, according to newton), but internal rotation would narrow your propulsive surface as your feet would move towards a more "freestyle/fly kick" position if they internally rotated.

Haven't heard the s pull being faster than a straight pull before... a straight pull = shortest distance between two points, the "S" effect depending on who you talk to feels like a straight pull to the swimmer but becomes an S as a consequence of body rotation.

That said, seems like extra external rotation would all you to orient your instep backwards longer, for more force going backwards... don't quite see how internal rotation helps in breaststroke (unless I have my internal/external terminology backwards).

[ElaineK]

What do my fellow BR laners think.

Well, King Frog, I wish I could contribute something of value to this discussion, but, as you know from previous posts, I am happy if I can just get my right ankle to turn out consistently on each stroke!

[Allen Stark]

Do you have a picture of what you're describing here?

Let me make sure I understand the terminology:
sole= bottom of foot (when standing, the plane is parallel to the floor)
instep= inside of foot (when standing, the plane is perpendicular to the floor)
internal rotation= turn towards midline (so if you were standing up, your feet would rotate towards the middle, ex pigeon toe)

You describe a picture with soles facing one another... This seems rather odd! Then the two planes of your feet pushing water are vertical and moving water to the opposite side (ex left foot pushing water to the right and vice versa)

When I think of "ankle snap" I think of the finish of the kick, which is towards the end of knee extension. Can't really visualize any "snapping" going on right after the catch, especially since you said "internal rotation". Wouldn't that decrease the propulsive surface? I would think that *maybe* external rotation early in the kick would increase propulsive surface (orients more of the instep + fat calves closer to the transverse plane, which is what you need to do to move forward, according to newton), but internal rotation would narrow your propulsive surface as your feet would move towards a more "freestyle/fly kick" position if they internally rotated.

Haven't heard the s pull being faster than a straight pull before... a straight pull = shortest distance between two points, the "S" effect depending on who you talk to feels like a straight pull to the swimmer but becomes an S as a consequence of body rotation.

That said, seems like extra external rotation would all you to orient your instep backwards longer, for more force going backwards... don't quite see how internal rotation helps in breaststroke (unless I have my internal/external terminology backwards).

Sorry,by internal rotation I did not mean getting pigeon toed I meant turning your foot so that the soles are facing each other http://www.breaststroke.info/santos-part2.htm (the seated breaststroke drill shows what I am calling internal rotation.)
Also I am not saying the S pull is faster than the straight back pull I don't think it is) merely that greater hand speed can be generated,especially on the insweep.due to the relatively diagonal nature of the movement.

[swimBRCT]

Sorry,by internal rotation I did not mean getting pigeon toed I meant turning your foot so that the soles are facing each other http://www.breaststroke.info/santos-part2.htm (the seated breaststroke drill shows what I am calling internal rotation.)
Also I am not saying the S pull is faster than the straight back pull I don't think it is) merely that greater hand speed can be generated,especially on the insweep.due to the relatively diagonal nature of the movement.

Thanks for the clarification!
I think the word here might be "supination".

I that said, I will have to try the suggested drill there for a couple days. That said, given the anatomy of the foot, I don't think the soles could really end up being oriented parallel to the sagittal plane (the one that would cut your body into left and right), so they would definitely still be oriented backwards.

I don't quite have the ankle flexibility to achieve this yet so I'll work on it... that said, it would seem this movement enables the SOLES to catch the water rather than just the INSTEP of the foot, and the SOLES are flatter+a bigger surface so they'd probably catch water better.

Seems like something good to work on!

Regarding s/straight pull.... I'm beginning to see Coach Jonty Skinner's logic in removing the "pull" model from descriptions of what the arm's doing. He speaks in terms of "anchoring" the hand and then vaulting the body over the anchor. Hand speed on the catch/ follow through isn't really positive, as ideally the net hand velocity would be negative (when champs put their hands in, they exit in front of where they entered!, as opposed to slipping backwards)

The "s" shape, depending on who you talk to, could be on the frontal plane (top down view), or the sagittal plane (looking from the left/right side). But that's a discussion for another day/thread.

That said, I just got an invite for fitocracy (it's a website that gives you points and tracks your exercise progress)... I'm having a lot of fun, and if anybody wants an invite shoot me a message and I"ll be happy to send you one.


Next breaststroke question.... what sorts of dryland exercises do you guys do to protect your knees from injury? I"ve been having a bit of pain in 1 leg (left leg, I'm right handed). Someone suggested doing 180 degree squat jumps as they encourage your knees to learn to deal with rotational forces, wondering if anyone has any other ideas that worked for them.

[robertsrobson]

Here is something I have been noticing/thinking about and I wonder what you all think.
When I was in college I was taught that the propulsive surface in the breaststroke kick was the instep so that the foot stayed in roughly the same position throughout the kick.
In the early 90s I read about the "ankle snap" and saw pictures of breaststrokers finishing their kick with the soles of their feet facing each other.I started doing that as best I could with the snap coming in the last part of the kick.
More recently I had been focusing more on my pull and timing and not thinking about my kick that much except to be aware of trying to touch my heels to my rear on the recovery and get my feet turned out as much as possible on the catch but most recently I have been focusing on my kick again and have noticed I had begun to internally rotate my feet(ankle snap) right after the catch,very early in my kick.This markedly decreases the power of the ankle snap but seems to give me more thrust as it provides a larger propulsive surface for longer .This seems analogous to EVF/straight pull in free in that one can generate faster hand speed with an S pull,but this is more than made up for by the larger propulsive surface of EVF.
What do my fellow BR laners think.

From the conversations I've had, current thinking seems to be to push the water back with the foot, rather than trying to rotate. I think that's what you're describing. I've not realy focused on it for myself, though....

[Allen Stark]

Next breaststroke question.... what sorts of dryland exercises do you guys do to protect your knees from injury? I"ve been having a bit of pain in 1 leg (left leg, I'm right handed). Someone suggested doing 180 degree squat jumps as they encourage your knees to learn to deal with rotational forces, wondering if anyone has any other ideas that worked for them.

I have never done the 180 degree squat jump as a consistent exercise(when I was much younger I would see how many revolutions I could do in the air on jumps,I have no idea now what my record was.I do remember my record for jumping up and clicking my heels was 3-or was it 4,it was long ago.)This exercise would scare me as it seems too easy to hurt your self.
I think the best thing to do if you are having leg pain is to stop doing things that hurt until the pain goes away(OK,I don't always practice what I preach,if I have a big meet coming I too often think"I'll rest it after the meet",not the best policy.)I had a Physical Therapist who worked with a lot of swimmers tell me"I know how you swimmers are,you get a slight strain and if you didn't use that muscle you'd be fine in 2 days,but you won't so it becomes chronic."
I have disc problems in my lower back which somewhat limits the leg work I can do(I can't really do regular squats.)One exercise I love is jumps from the pool bottom in streamline position in 5-7 feet of water(7 is better but one pool I swim at is only 5 ft deep.)I do 3 sets of 8-12.It helps with legs but also with body position.If you are not straight as you go up you don't come down straight.
Good luck with your leg,I hope it fells fine soon.

[breastroker]

Someone suggested doing 180 degree squat jumps as they encourage your knees to learn to deal with rotational forces, wondering if anyone has any other ideas that worked for them

Who thought of that one, a demented hating backstroker????

You have never heard of backstrokers knee?

But there have been hundreds of articles on breaststrokers knees!

The knees have always been the problem with breaststrokers ( and the groin), and it is the smaller muscles and ligaments that get strained due to the stress of the kick.

The BEST exercise is toe raises. I do them everywhere, at work, waiting in an airport, waiting for a booth to eat, I mean everywhere.

I do 50 with the feet parallel, about 10 inches apart, then another 50 with the toes together, heels spread apart. Then another 50 with the heels together and the toes pointing outwards. And if I can find an incline, like a book at a hotel, I do that too.

I had knee problems since college, lots of problems until I had knee surgery in 1984. But I had some of the best Doctors before and after, and it was always toe lifts.

I have better calves that when I was 19, and it is always great to show the Diamonds (calves) off compared to the backstrokers!

Plus you HAVE to have great looking legs to wear a kilt

[breastroker]

Allen is dead on with the pool jumps, love them. As he stated, they also teach you streamlining.

One other pool exercise I hate and think is stupid, is frog kicks holding weight blocks. Nothing like teaching the muscles to kick SLOW.

That is why I recommend the all out forwards eggbeaters.

There is one slow kick exercise I have recommended though. Back in the 80's I was coaching a bunch of ladies with a little too much leg flab.

So I invented verticle kickboards, both with flutter kick and breaststroke kick. All the ladies lost many many many inches off their thighs.

But I discovered with the breaststroke that verticle boards teaches finishing the kick properly. The kick starts slowly, finding the water (catch) and then accererating till the feet Slam together. I had Stanford breaststrokers tell me they could briuise their heels from kicking so hard.

You just go nowhere if you don't finish that last few inches with verticle board kicking.

Have a great Thanksgivin

[robertsrobson]

Sorry,by internal rotation I did not mean getting pigeon toed I meant turning your foot so that the soles are facing each other http://www.breaststroke.info/santos-part2.htm (the seated breaststroke drill shows what I am calling internal rotation.)
Also I am not saying the S pull is faster than the straight back pull I don't think it is) merely that greater hand speed can be generated,especially on the insweep.due to the relatively diagonal nature of the movement.

I was playing with my foot position last night, mainly just trying to be more aware of how they were positioned. I think I'm somewhere between a sweep of the insteps and a push back with the soles. The conclusion that I drew is that I won't lose sleep over it!