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Thread: The Breaststroke Lane

  1. #841

    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Guys, take a look how 100m Breaststroke WR was set - http://swimswam.com/2012/07/illegal-...ststroke-swim/

  2. #842
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    Making a dolphin kick as soon as you hit the water is almost impossible for the ref.to see without underwater video,which is why we need video review.
    My coach made us practice this when it first came around in 2002! it's not hard to learn. I am still not confident to do it at meets. You do get a little extra speed in the water with it though.
    It is pretty impossible to see for the ref if you time it right. But if you are just a little off, it can be seen. So practice practice

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    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    On a more positive note, Soni broke the WR in her semi heat! You go girl!
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post
    You go girl!
    She did.
    "I blame you, James!" - knelson

  5. #845
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Britt03 View Post
    My coach made us practice this when it first came around in 2002! it's not hard to learn. I am still not confident to do it at meets. You do get a little extra speed in the water with it though.
    It is pretty impossible to see for the ref if you time it right. But if you are just a little off, it can be seen. So practice practice
    I know coaches teach it,but what kind of an example is that"OK kids today we are going to learn to cheat and get away with it.Remember doing bad things is only bad if you get caught."
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

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    Very Active Member gobears's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    I know coaches teach it,but what kind of an example is that"OK kids today we are going to learn to cheat and get away with it.Remember doing bad things is only bad if you get caught."
    The same kind of thinking, I guess, that makes the people who cheat and win gold feel like winners even though they know they cheated. Have to be better at rationalization than most.

  7. #847
    Very Active Member breastroker's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    The dolphin kick on entry was called the "Magic Surge" and is legal for everything except breaststroke. This has been common for years for breaststrokers to do this "Cheat".

    As for Rebeca's final "World record", totally awesome. Under 2:20 is amazing.

    I have always said and repeated many times, so little distance is gained in the "pull" portion of the stroke compared to the kick and glide. Her tiny butterfly pull gets her almost the same distance as the other ladies larger pulls, but is done MUCH quicker and with less effort. She then has more time to kick and glide and gets 90% of her distance per stroke from her fast kick.

    There used to be an almost complete stoppage between the pull and the kick 25 years ago. Coaches started the wave style and core body strength to reduce the slowing down between phases. Rebeca's coach even stated the wave style pull Amanda Beard used in 1996, the pull was nearly non propulsive.

    But Coach Salo gets it now, Rebeca has no wasted motion in her pull, and nearly zero slowdown between the pull and the kick and glide. Of course you have to have a smallish swimmer with a tremondous fast and powerful kick.
    This style just isn't as effective as with a Beata Kubaza. (First woman under a minute 100 yards).

    I have had several great young girl swimmers who used nearly the same stroke, but without the hands coming nearly over the waters surface upon extension.
    It's not how fast you swim, it's how fast you slow down.

    For competition breaststroke information visit: http://www.breaststroke.info/

  8. #848
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Rebecca Soni's "front end" technique seems to be quite different than other breastrokers: short pull, wide elbows on recovery. In addition, her turnover is faster than other 200m swimmers. Obviously it works for her. Any ideas how she "gets away with it"? She does seem to break a number of conventional wisdom rules.

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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by smontanaro View Post
    Rebecca Soni's "front end" technique seems to be quite different than other breastrokers: short pull, wide elbows on recovery. In addition, her turnover is faster than other 200m swimmers. Obviously it works for her. Any ideas how she "gets away with it"? She does seem to break a number of conventional wisdom rules.
    I noticed the same thing from the aerial shots in her 200. It is amazing how wide her elbows are. She still powers her hands in under her chest but just doesn't squeeze her elbows all the way in. There is no doubt it works! It was a great swim. I would love to see a biomechanical analysis of her technique.
    For information on swimming breaststroke: http://breaststrokezone.com

  10. #850
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Fins25 View Post
    I noticed the same thing from the aerial shots in her 200. It is amazing how wide her elbows are. She still powers her hands in under her chest but just doesn't squeeze her elbows all the way in. There is no doubt it works! It was a great swim. I would love to see a biomechanical analysis of her technique.
    http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/champion/RS160200.htm
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  11. #851
    Very Active Member breastroker's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Thank you for posting that link Allen. I have worked with Brent before, breaking down the stroke every tenth of a second allows swimmers to see the big picture.

    Few breaststrokers understand the time spent in each phase of the stroke. Starting at frame 5 and going to frame 13 that would mean 8 tenths spent in Rebecca's pull. And hers is one of the quickest ever.

    Now starting at frame 15 through 20 the kick begins and ends.

    The kick is always much faster than the pull.

    Notice Brent has several recomendations:

    There is no need to point the toes etc. at the end of the kick "for streamlining"

    The butterfly pull is prefered for several reasons
    It's not how fast you swim, it's how fast you slow down.

    For competition breaststroke information visit: http://www.breaststroke.info/

  12. #852
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    2:19 WOW That is faster than the semis in backstroke !!!!!!!!!!!

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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Thanks for that link Allen. It explains that there is no exaggerated inward scull that traditionally has been used. I used to spend so much time focussing on the insweep. It is great watching the best changing things up
    For information on swimming breaststroke: http://breaststrokezone.com

  14. #854
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    She did.
    So, how AWESOME was that to break the WR in semis- and do it again in the final? I saw the disappointment on her face when she was interviewed after the first WR; she wanted so bad to break 2:20.00. To come back in the finals with that kind of determination to not only win the gold; but break her own WR was incredible!
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  15. #855
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Since the idea that drag was more efficient than lift in propelling a swimmer gained ascendancy it was only a matter of time before someone tried to swim BR without an insweep.(The insweeps propulsion coming mostly from lift forces.)Soni does this but I don't think this is going to work well for most BR swimmers,as Shanteau said"that stroke works for her,it wouldn't work for me."She is recovering her hands very wide.She is able do do this efficiently by recovering her hands over the surface which she is able to do thanks to a combination of riding high in the water,very flexible shoulders,and a rapid turnover.
    She also has a very short but powerful kick.She is able to get power from this kick by having very good leg flexibility allowing her to get into the power phase of the kick immediately.I believe slightly less flexible swimmers will require recovering their feet further back so that they can get proper position for the kick by the power phase.Paradoxically I believe that swimmers with poor hip ,knee,and ankle flexibility would probably benefit from shortening their kick as Soni does since if you are not going to get a lot from the kick it is better to get it over with quickly and get into your(hopefully more powerful) pull.
    While the idiosyncrasies of her stroke are clearly not for everyone ,I none the less suggest you try out emulating her stroke for a few practices to see if it is for you.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  16. #856
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Repeating myself, there are two ways of developing more power.

    Breaststrokers like to be very strong and apply that strength along a long pull and kick paths.

    Or what I recommend that nearly everyone can do, is develop more power by a faster pull and strength. Power being strength x distance divided by time.

    A faster pull and especially a faster kick (explosive fast) will get breaststrokers faster.

    That is why I hate many drills, like holding a heavy weight and going slow egg beaters struggling to stay on the waters surface. Now can anyone explain how that helps? It doesn't and never will. Just a waste of precious time.

    MY swimmers do explosive hands, but their explosive forwards all-out egg beater develops leg muscles that will fire much faster, and the drill does one thing that NO other drill does, work the muscles that pull the legs up to the butt. Remember it it the muscles that pull the legs up that get tires way before the muscles that are propulsive firing backwards.
    It's not how fast you swim, it's how fast you slow down.

    For competition breaststroke information visit: http://www.breaststroke.info/

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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by breastroker View Post

    A faster pull and especially a faster kick (explosive fast) will get breaststrokers faster.

    That is why I hate many drills, like holding a heavy weight and going slow egg beaters struggling to stay on the waters surface. Now can anyone explain how that helps? It doesn't and never will. Just a waste of precious time.

    MY swimmers do explosive hands, but their explosive forwards all-out egg beater develops leg muscles that will fire much faster, and the drill does one thing that NO other drill does, work the muscles that pull the legs up to the butt. Remember it it the muscles that pull the legs up that get tires way before the muscles that are propulsive firing backwards.
    Makes sense. I'd be curious to try. Any links to videos of these sorts of drills?

  18. #858

    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    No comments - http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches...itain-cheating
    In one hand I can understand Cameron - if there's no way to enforce the rule (with underwater check or whatever) and you know that everyone uses the situation to violate the rule then there's no point in the rule. But from another hand no one can be absolutely sure that everyone violated the rule so the swimmers were in the equal position while competing.
    Last edited by Debugger; August 5th, 2012 at 02:38 PM.

  19. #859
    Very Active Member Swimosaur's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Thanks to Elaine's generous husband Bruce, we have,

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post
    Here are the videos Bruce shot of two of your events ... 200m br- http://youtu.be/C4N2B4a_nls... Post this link in The Breaststroke Lane and King Frog (and possibly Jim Rude) will give you informative feedback ...
    I just started swimming breaststroke events this year. I decided I like the 200 best; this is the first time I've done this event LCM. I was pretty happy with the time & the splits.

    Splits were 47.44 + 51.88 (1:39.32 ) + 53.52 + 51.88 (1:45.40) = 3:24.72

    Any & all comments welcome!

    BORKED

  20. #860
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Let's face it, allowing a dolphin kick during the breaststroke pullout opened a big can of worms. I think the rule should revert to not allowing a dolphin kick at all. It makes no sense to me that you should be able to use a kick that is illegal during the surface portion of the stroke during the pullout.

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