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Thread: The Breaststroke Lane

  1. #881
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post
    HAPPY NEW YEAR, fellow frogs!

    I'm back with yet another video of my breaststroke, in hopes my technique has improved, since I last posted. (I can only hope...). This video is of my 50 breaststroke, minus the last stroke, because my husband shut off the camera too soon. As for speed, it's a bit off, due to this being my 6th day of training in a row. But, what I am looking for, is constructive criticism of my pullout, stroke, and turn. I really tried to keep my arms straight on recovery; this was the best I could do:

    I also have a video of my breaststroke pull drill and would appreciate any feedback on this one, as well:

    Again, this is as straight as I can get my arms (and as hunched as I can get my shoulders) on recovery.

    Thank you (in advance) for your help!
    It is a little hard to comment given your physical limitations,but here goes:your pullout it much better than before in terms of timing,especially the first one.After the pulldown it looks like you raise your head as you start the kick,which slows you down.
    You are recovering your arms back further than you used to,and I think too far.Your elbows are coming noticeably past your shoulders which is slowing your getting into streamline for your kick.The actual recovery seems fast enough,but since it is starting too far back it is breaking up the smooth flow of your stroke.
    If you could get some underwater views of your kick it would be great.It seems like your kick varies as to how wide it is,but it is hard to tell from that angle.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  2. #882
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    It is a little hard to comment given your physical limitations,but here goes:your pullout it much better than before in terms of timing,especially the first one.After the pulldown it looks like you raise your head as you start the kick,which slows you down.
    You are recovering your arms back further than you used to,and I think too far.Your elbows are coming noticeably past your shoulders which is slowing your getting into streamline for your kick.The actual recovery seems fast enough,but since it is starting too far back it is breaking up the smooth flow of your stroke.
    If you could get some underwater views of your kick it would be great.It seems like your kick varies as to how wide it is,but it is hard to tell from that angle.
    Happy New Year, King Frog! Thanks (as always!) for your quick and helpful feedback!

    Lifting my head on the pullout: Uggghhh; I forgot about that flaw while I was thinking about everything else! Thanks for the reminder; I needed that!
    Pulling my elbows too far back: You're right; an old habit reared it's UGLY head! So, I will get right back on that; an easy fix, as long as I am thinking about it.

    As for the kick, Bruce and I will work on getting some underwater footage and get it posted. Thanks!
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  3. #883
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    If you could get some underwater views of your kick it would be great.It seems like your kick varies as to how wide it is,but it is hard to tell from that angle.

    OK, King Frog, here they are:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRsCRjJODaI&feature=youtu.be


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0QXFBRq3mQ&feature=youtu.be

    I tried to correct my pull, as well as my head position on the first stroke after my pullout. I swam these at 100 pace.


    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  4. #884
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post

    OK, King Frog, here they are:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRsCRjJODaI&feature=youtu.be


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0QXFBRq3mQ&feature=youtu.be

    I tried to correct my pull, as well as my head position on the first stroke after my pullout. I swam these at 100 pace.


    Great camera work.Your head is much better.There are a couple of things I see that are issues I constantly have to work on myself.As you extend your arms on the recovery you are shooting slightly down instead of straight ahead.I don't think this is a flexibility issue as you get your body properly aligned with your arms,just angled down.A good drill is to recover with your thumbs pointing up breaking the surface of the water.
    You sometimes recover your legs with your knees wider than your feet.Hips,knees and feet should all be in the same vertical plane in the recovery.A good drill for this is breaststroke with a pull buoy between your legs.
    Also, you are catching air with each kick.Make sure your feet are underwater for each kick.

    When
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  5. #885
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    Great camera work.Your head is much better.There are a couple of things I see that are issues I constantly have to work on myself.As you extend your arms on the recovery you are shooting slightly down instead of straight ahead.I don't think this is a flexibility issue as you get your body properly aligned with your arms,just angled down.A good drill is to recover with your thumbs pointing up breaking the surface of the water.
    You sometimes recover your legs with your knees wider than your feet.Hips,knees and feet should all be in the same vertical plane in the recovery.A good drill for this is breaststroke with a pull buoy between your legs.
    Also, you are catching air with each kick.Make sure your feet are underwater for each kick.

    When
    Bruce says, "Thanks! " He's getting pretty good with that camera, I think. As for my breaststroke, I wish I swam it as well as he photographs it! But, I'm glad to hear that some of my issues with the stroke are ones you continue to work on, as well. Misery loves company!

    Catching airon my kick has been a constant battle; something I continuously strive to correct. I will keep working on it, though. I appreciate your drill suggestions; it's time to get the pull buoy back out! And, I like the idea of the thumbs-up drill- thanks!
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  6. #886
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    A good drill for this is breaststroke with a pull buoy between your legs.
    Also, you are catching air with each kick.Make sure your feet are underwater for each kick.

    OK, K.F., I tried this drill again, but I just can't get it (breaststroke with a pull buoy).
    I hope nobody saw me actually trying this, although, I'm sure it was good for a .

    Do you have a good drill for improving the positioning of my feet, so I don't catch any air? When I try to get more movement in my hips to bring my feet deeper, then I catch myself making bigger pulls which brings my elbows back. When I concentrate on keeping my elbows out in front of my shoulders on the pull, my body flattens out more and my feet go shallower.
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  7. #887
    Very Active Member __steve__'s Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    Hips,knees and feet should all be in the same vertical plane in the recovery.

    Also, you are catching air with each kick.Make sure your feet are underwater for each kick.
    The knees and feet must not go wider than hips at leg recovery?

    I am definately kicking wrong somewhere, my 50m time is just under a minute

  8. #888
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by __steve__ View Post
    The knees and feet must not go wider than hips at leg recovery?

    I am definately kicking wrong somewhere, my 50m time is just under a minute
    Can you get a video of your kick?
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  9. #889
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post

    OK, K.F., I tried this drill again, but I just can't get it (breaststroke with a pull buoy).
    I hope nobody saw me actually trying this, although, I'm sure it was good for a .

    Do you have a good drill for improving the positioning of my feet, so I don't catch any air? When I try to get more movement in my hips to bring my feet deeper, then I catch myself making bigger pulls which brings my elbows back. When I concentrate on keeping my elbows out in front of my shoulders on the pull, my body flattens out more and my feet go shallower.
    i haven't figured a good drill out yet.You might work on pushing your hips more as you recover your arms that should get your feet lower.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  10. #890
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post

    OK, K.F., I tried this drill again, but I just can't get it (breaststroke with a pull buoy).
    I hope nobody saw me actually trying this, although, I'm sure it was good for a .

    Do you have a good drill for improving the positioning of my feet, so I don't catch any air? When I try to get more movement in my hips to bring my feet deeper, then I catch myself making bigger pulls which brings my elbows back. When I concentrate on keeping my elbows out in front of my shoulders on the pull, my body flattens out more and my feet go shallower.
    I just looked at your video again.You do a pretty good job of recovering your feet from the knees instead of flexing at the hips,but if you were even better that would get the feet lower.Also if you can get your knees narrower on the recovery, I think that will get your feet lower.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  11. #891
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    I just looked at your video again.You do a pretty good job of recovering your feet from the knees instead of flexing at the hips,but if you were even better that would get the feet lower.Also if you can get your knees narrower on the recovery, I think that will get your feet lower.
    Thanks for the suggestion, King Frog; I'll keep working on it!
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  12. #892

    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Elaine,
    Quick two cents:

    If you recover your arms closer to the surface, as Allen suggests, then stretch and begin your armpull just below the surface, it should cause your hips to open and drop slightly, enough to keep your fully recovered heels from catching air. Accentuating the frontal stretch before the armpull begins, especially from the armpits down through the hipbones, should open the hips a bit and give your recovering lower legs the room they need.

    Here's good underwater footage (beginning at about the 30 second mark) of Kitajima doing an armpull just below the surface, opening his hips slightly as his legs begin their recovery:


  13. #893
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Woofus B. Loofus View Post
    Elaine,
    Quick two cents:

    If you recover your arms closer to the surface, as Allen suggests, then stretch and begin your armpull just below the surface, it should cause your hips to open and drop slightly, enough to keep your fully recovered heels from catching air. Accentuating the frontal stretch before the armpull begins, especially from the armpits down through the hipbones, should open the hips a bit and give your recovering lower legs the room they need.

    Here's good underwater footage (beginning at about the 30 second mark) of Kitajima doing an armpull just below the surface, opening his hips slightly as his legs begin their recovery:


    Hi Woofus!
    Thanks for stopping by with your advice (good as always!) and video. That is fantastic footage of Kitajima! And, I appreciate your
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  14. #894
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Today I made an observation that startled and somewhat horrified me:
    As part of my workout I did 100s kick on the 2:00 interval. When I did breaststroke kick I held 1:45-1:46 every time.
    Later in the workout I did 100s breaststroke on the 2:00 interval. My swim times varied between 1:42 and 1:44.
    My feeling is that these were comparable efforts.
    What's the deal here? Is adding the arm stroke really only good for a 1% increase in speed? Is this normal?
    My feeling is that there must be some significant problem with my arm stroke, but before I tear my stroke apart, or give up this evil stroke forever, I thought I should ask those more experienced than I.

  15. #895
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_S View Post
    Today I made an observation that startled and somewhat horrified me:
    As part of my workout I did 100s kick on the 2:00 interval. When I did breaststroke kick I held 1:45-1:46 every time.
    Later in the workout I did 100s breaststroke on the 2:00 interval. My swim times varied between 1:42 and 1:44.
    My feeling is that these were comparable efforts.
    What's the deal here? Is adding the arm stroke really only good for a 1% increase in speed? Is this normal?
    My feeling is that there must be some significant problem with my arm stroke, but before I tear my stroke apart, or give up this evil stroke forever, I thought I should ask those more experienced than I.
    Depending on many factors your kick should be between 40% and 80% of your propulsion.Your percentage is much higher than that as you note.I suspect that as you are adding the pull you are doing something to increase drag.I'd need to see your stroke to be sure,but the most common cause of increased drag is getting stuck in the "prayer"position between the insweep and the recovery.Concentrate on accelerating through the insweep into and through the recovery and see if that helps.If it doesn't then please post a video.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  16. #896
    Administrator matysekj's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Another question is how you did the kicks. Did you use a kickboard? That completely throws off your body position for most swimmers, so your body position when kicking with a kickboard doesn't really resemble your body position when swimming the full stroke. If you didn't use a kickboard, I'd bet good money that you are doing a fairly significant involuntary scull with your arms when you are supposed to be just kicking. I never use a kickboard, and when I kick breast I lock my thumbs together out front to prevent any sculling motion at all.
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by matysekj View Post
    Another question is how you did the kicks. Did you use a kickboard? That completely throws off your body position for most swimmers, so your body position when kicking with a kickboard doesn't really resemble your body position when swimming the full stroke. If you didn't use a kickboard, I'd bet good money that you are doing a fairly significant involuntary scull with your arms when you are supposed to be just kicking. I never use a kickboard, and when I kick breast I lock my thumbs together out front to prevent any sculling motion at all.
    Good points. I used a board. (Like you, when I kick without a board I lock my thumbs.) Also when I kick, I do not pull into the wall, I simply take my hand off the board and grab the wall. There may be some propulsive effect when I use the other hand to turn the board around, but I definitely do not pull with the free hand.

  18. #898
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    Depending on many factors your kick should be between 40% and 80% of your propulsion.Your percentage is much higher than that as you note.I suspect that as you are adding the pull you are doing something to increase drag.I'd need to see your stroke to be sure,but the most common cause of increased drag is getting stuck in the "prayer"position between the insweep and the recovery.Concentrate on accelerating through the insweep into and through the recovery and see if that helps.If it doesn't then please post a video.
    I'm goint to check the getting stuck in a position of high drag thing. I'm also going to check this at AFAP pace instead of during interval training to see if there is a large difference.

  19. #899
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_S View Post
    I'm goint to check the getting stuck in a position of high drag thing. I'm also going to check this at AFAP pace instead of during interval training to see if there is a large difference.
    Can you get somebody to videotape you? King Frog can look at ANY breaststroke on video and pick up on the flaws.
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  20. #900
    Very Active Member gobears's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    A question for my fellow breaststroke swimmers: I was noticing yesterday (while watching online videos of the breaststroke events at the 2012 Olympic Games) that the men all seem to add their dolphin kick on their pull out as their hands separate but before they pull down. I had a coach telling me that I need to learn to do that because it's much faster than kicking at the finish of the arm pull. However, if you watch the women, they all dolphin kick where I do (at the end of the arm pull). Anyone have any thoughts on why this is true? It took me forever to add a dolphin kick at all after years of not doing one. The last thing I want to do is have to re-learn where to put it!

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